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<dbotton>
thanks <White_Flame>
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<moon-child>
morning beach
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<edgar-rft>
morning to everyone plus their children :-)
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<White_Flame>
good morning, noone.
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<lukego>
good morning
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<beach>
Hello lukego.
<lukego>
I have been distracted learning to solder but learning to write lisp code to design PCBs is visible on the horizon again :)
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<ramin>
Hi everyone. I was just curious if there are any Scheme libraries that try to ease the transition for people familiar with Common Lisp to Scheme by providing as many of the features in X3J13 as possible. For example, in Scheme a function like "funcall" is unnecessary, the kind of library I am talking about would provide a "funcall" macro as a convenience. Is there any such project out there?
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<beach>
ramin: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp. You may have more luck in #scheme.
<ramin>
beach: thanks anyway
<beach>
ramin: Furthermore, Scheme lacks lots of features, like CLOS.
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<beach>
That would be a big chunk for a library independent of any Scheme implementation.
<aeth>
ramin: My Scheme implementation inside of Common Lisp will eventually provide most of Common Lisp to Scheme, but it's obviously not done via portable Scheme.
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<beach>
ramin: The real question, though, is: Why on earth would you abandon Common Lisp in favor of Scheme?
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<ramin>
beach: I'd prefer to avoid a flame war, ha ha!
<ramin>
aeth: sounds intersting. Kind of the inverse of what I am looking for.
<aeth>
ramin: because it's easier (and more efficient) to implement a small language inside of a large one than the other way around
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<ramin>
aeth: indeed. I've seen scheme implemented in many languages.
<ramin>
I know several Scheme implementations provide their own version of CLOS, but as far as I know it isn't standardized. There may be a SRFI about it, I can't find one at the momemnt.
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<aeth>
It's unlikely to ever be uncontroversial enough to be portable between implementations.
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<aeth>
Scheme tends to be very anti-generics, too. (I'm impressed + is in the language.)
<markasoftware>
does sbcl --non-interactive imply --disable-ldb?
<moon-child>
ramin: I don't know of anything complete (in my game engine, which embeds scheme, I made implementations of incf/decf--which should be inc! and dec! for syle but--and 1+/1-). But, why on earth would you want funcall in a lisp-1?
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<aeth>
moon-child: Ironically, funcall is one of the few things I didn't intend to expose.
<ramin>
moon-child: aeth: wouldn't funcall in Scheme essentially be a NO-OP?
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<moon-child>
well, it would be a macro. Something like (define-macro (funcall fun . args) `(,fun ,@args))
<aeth>
^
<aeth>
(Except that's not portable Scheme, either, since that could be define-macro or defmacro or nonexistent since Scheme only requires hygienic macros.)
<ramin>
moon-child: right.
<moon-child>
scheme is ... _very_ fragmented. It's hard even to write portable cl, if you wanna do e.g. threads
<aeth>
Yes, if you want to directly port CL into Scheme, there's basically no reason to use portable Scheme, and the only Scheme that would be good for the task is the still-incomplete Airship Scheme.
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<jasom>
I wonder how hard it would be to optimize (incf (gethash KEY HT 0)) to only perform a single hash-table lookup when KEY is already in HT.
<moon-child>
(setf (gethash) (... (gethash))) is probably a pretty common pattern
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<no-defun-allowed>
It's doable, but it may not be a good idea.
<beach>
jasom: I am guessing not very hard.
<jasom>
For update-heavy inputs, changing it to have a cons of the value, and modifying the cons gets a rather large speedup.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Suppose we had a hash table based on a single vector (open hashing), and that vector looked like [__XXM] where Xs are removed mappings, M is the mapping you want, and _ is empty.
<moon-child>
no-defun-allowed: out of curiosity, how did you see that message, since you joined well after it was sent?
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<no-defun-allowed>
You may start searching at an X, in which case you're doing more work.
<jasom>
no-defun-allowed: my idea is to find M, then use it for both the read and the write; why is that ever a bad idea?
<no-defun-allowed>
If we noted that the mapping was dead, we could replace it with the mapping we want, saving time in the future would we search again.
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<jasom>
ah, I see
<jasom>
in this particular case keys are never deleted
<no-defun-allowed>
On the other hand, I wonder what happens to the old M if that happens. I may need to experiment.
<no-defun-allowed>
Yeah, then you wouldn't have removed mappings and it would be a good idea.
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<no-defun-allowed>
moon-child: Magic, and/or the broken Matrix-IRC bridge.
<no-defun-allowed>
Mostly the former.
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<moon-child>
ahh, matrix
<no-defun-allowed>
Okay, the one hash table implementation that does linear probing which I have experience with (Luckless) cannot move mappings like that, so it's a moot point. But a few hash-table related optimisations aren't doable with some sensible implementation details.
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<markasoftware>
is catching sb-sys:interactive-interrupt the only way to catch any sort of OS signal in SBCL without using ffi?
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<markasoftware>
ie, is there any way to catch sigterm?
<markasoftware>
(interactive-interrupt only catches sigint, which i can probably make do with if i have to)
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<no-defun-allowed>
There is trivial-signal which abstracts away the FFI stuff.
<moon-child>
markasoftware: there was a posix-abstraction-layer-ish thingy (works on windows tho). But I don't remember if it handled signals
<scymtym>
the SBCL-specific way would be (sb-unix:enable-interrupt sb-unix:sigterm #'HANDLER)
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<markasoftware>
thanks, i think I'll stick with the simplest option
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<shka_>
hi
<shka_>
i am looking for library that works like cl-who but for json
<no-defun-allowed>
Hello shka_
<shka_>
any recommendations?
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<jackdaniel>
wasn't json a data format?
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<jackdaniel>
there are libraries which allow parsing and encoding json from lisp data
<jackdaniel>
or do you want something like (with-json (:array 1 2 3)) ? I think that yason has somewhat compatible approach
<Xach>
I wound up making some helper functions with short names and using functional encoding from yason.
<Xach>
so something like (json (table "foo" (array 1 2 3) "bar" (true)))
<Xach>
not exactly that, but not far off
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<ldb`>
"Arguments and Values: fn---an extended function designator or a lambda expression. "
<Bike>
functions are function designators
<Bike>
they designate themselves
<Bike>
i just tried (defun foo (x) (lambda () x)) (disassemble (foo 6)) and it worked fine
<Bike>
in sbcl
<Bike>
and clasp
<ruffianeo>
For a while I thought it is because it is a recursive function (the lambda) and I tried limited the inlining depth... but that did not help either
<Bike>
can you share the source of foo?
<ruffianeo>
I could make a gist of it
<Bike>
does a call (foo) by itself hang?
<ruffianeo>
hm... I tried so many things since yesterday - I don't remember it all :) I will gist it
<ruffianeo>
I tried (trace scan-variation) but it hangs silently
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<Bike>
well you'll have to trace the functions scan-variation calls.
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<ruffianeo>
how do I do that?
<Bike>
(trace whatever)
<Bike>
but actually i see the problem.
<Bike>
scan-variation calls scan-black-move which calls scan-variation.
<ruffianeo>
yes
<Bike>
...so i mean, it will keep recursing.
<ruffianeo>
but when calling scan-variation that code is not executed - it is just a builder
<Bike>
it sure looks executed to me.
<ruffianeo>
ohh....ahh...... you make me think
<Bike>
lisp is an eager language. when you write (between (token "(") ...) token will be called before between is.
<Bike>
and so on and so forth.
<ruffianeo>
ah yes - I did something similar in haskell before and haskell is lazy...
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<ruffianeo>
so this whole approach is not working in lisp?
<Bike>
i tried (trace pgn-tools::scan-variation) and called scan-variation and it immediately started printing out infinite calls. it did not "hang silently"
<Bike>
that would have made the problem more obvious.
<ruffianeo>
hm... I think I tried that
<Bike>
apparently you did not.
<Bike>
and no, you can do this in lisp, you'll just have to put more thought into evaluation order, i guess.
<Bike>
if you wrap a call in a lambda the call won't be executed until the lambda is called. you can delay in that fashion.
<ruffianeo>
oh yes - now I see that trace - that is something :)
<Bike>
why did you say you tried trace if you didn't
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<ruffianeo>
because it was the first time I tried to trace something and I might have messed it up somehow
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<ruffianeo>
ideas on how to delay that recursive call?
<Bike>
wrap it in a lambda like i said.
<Bike>
you'll have to decide at what points you want delays.
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<ruffianeo>
so I would do something in scan-black-move like (... (spaced (lambda (stream) (scan-variation stream)))?
<Bike>
sure.
<Xach>
if you find yourself doing that a lot, you can define helpers that make lambdas for you, too.
<Bike>
i can't give you much more detail without understanding what your application does.
<ruffianeo>
yes I was thinking about a (defun delay-scanner (scanner) (lambda (stream) (scanner stream)))
<Bike>
you'd want (funcall scanner stream), but yeah that could work.
<ruffianeo>
yes
<Bike>
er, well
<Bike>
i mean, that's the same as just returning scanner immediately, actually
<Bike>
if you do (delay-scanner whatever), whatever will be evaluated before delay-scanner is called
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<ruffianeo>
quite the conundrum
<Bike>
you can just write (lambda (stream) (scan-variation stream)) and stuff like that
<Bike>
possibly using a macro to reduce the repetition
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<ruffianeo>
in that parsec port to f#, they do some fancy forward-decl thing and they have it wrapped in some reference type
<ruffianeo>
that would also be an option here - (defparameter *scan-var* nil), then have the scan-black-move functions use that *scan-var* and I setf the *scan-var* once
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<ruffianeo>
thanks a lot!
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<ruffianeo>
and it works - updated the gist with fix if someone cares
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<Bike>
happy to be of service
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<mseddon>
are there any particularly well written, idiomatic lisp projects out there that I can learn style from?
<mseddon>
(hopefully more on the smaller, easily digestible side)
<beach>
It uses CLOS quite a lot. It has randomly-generated tests. It has documentation.
<beach>
And it is not hard to understand what it does. Just an editor buffer implementation, except highly optimized in terms of performance and in terms of multiple views.
<mseddon>
Actually I had to basically build a totally live lexical scanning text editor buffer on top of visual studio code to get sane lisp intentation for Clojure in Calva :(
<beach>
Hmm.
<mseddon>
It works, but it's stupid.
<mseddon>
some day I hope to write a proper lisp / slime plugin for vscode, it will, alas, need to use something similar for now.
<mseddon>
(and if you modify the readtable, All Bets Are Off, because I have no idea how to handle that.)
<beach>
That's the problem we aim to solve with Second Climacs.
<mseddon>
lul. the name... may need work
<beach>
Not at all.
<beach>
We will use Eclector to parse the editor buffer, so it will be the actual Lisp reader that determines the meaning of the buffer contents.
<mseddon>
I was thinking of an editor, DREI, "DREI replaces EMACS immediately"
<mseddon>
right. but if I have like 10k lines of file
<beach>
Incremental parsing.
<mseddon>
because e.g. this is a data text file of sexpr, rather than code
<beach>
It has been published.
<mseddon>
yeah, so long as you can restart it's fine
<mseddon>
cool. I had a couple of sneaky ways I could optimize that based on parenthesis links etc.
<mseddon>
do you have a title I can search for?
<ebrasca>
beach: Hi
<beach>
mseddon: For each editing operation, it determines which (recursivce) READs might need to be called again, and it repairs the whole analysis incrementally.
<beach>
Hello ebrasca.
<beach>
mseddon: Give me a minute.
<mseddon>
nice, yeah. That is nothing I got to, but I did at least glimpse that you could get there. It's vastly unexplored gold out there I think.
<mseddon>
beach: Fantastic! Thanks! I hope this will come in handy.
<beach>
Good luck.
<mseddon>
btw a very good project would be a lisp Language Server Protocol to subsume regular swank in most modern IDEs and text editors, too.
<beach>
Already done. scymtym has an implementation.
<tychoish>
slime is so much better than lsp though :( ;)
<mseddon>
i shall check his github, ty. :), and ty scymtym :D
<mseddon>
tychoish: meh. you can hack extensions onto it, to support that, it's no issue.
<beach>
tychoish: And still not that good.
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<mseddon>
but yeah, it's still worlds better than the horror show editing lisp is currently in most editors.
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<tychoish>
fair. I also think it's a good idea to have lisp lsp stuff
<tychoish>
even if I don't want to actually use it :)
<mseddon>
It's a bitch to say "Learn lisp! Oh, yeah, learn emacs, it's as old as ITS"
<mseddon>
it really only leaves the most persistent to appreciate it.
<tychoish>
for sure.
<beach>
So Cluffer is an implementation of an abstract data type that I call "editable sequence", except that its protocols are adapted to text editors, so the sequence is in two layers: lines and items within a line.
<beach>
The test suite is particularly interesting in that it generates random operations for the real implementation, and the same operations on a trivial but slow implementation of the same protocols. It then compares the results. This technique for testing gives excellent coverage and is unlikely to miss any edge cases.
<beach>
mseddon: You should direct those people to the presentation by "Uncle Bob" that I referred to the other day.
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<beach>
mseddon: He says that Emacs, because it is written in Lisp, will become better than every IDE out there.
<mseddon>
beach: I think so too, but not like it is today.
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<beach>
I don't think so, but some people are impressed by what Uncle Bob says.
<mseddon>
beach: But I want my IDE written in lisp, almost like a lispm.
<mseddon>
emacs is sort of the 80/20 rule of that.
<beach>
mseddon: We are working on it.
<mseddon>
me too. fwiw :)
<chrsnjk>
hi, about lisp reading in emacs, I recently tried to make "Smart syntax highlighting for dynamic languageCase: Common Lisp in Emacs" work, the code is somewhere on my laptop
<mseddon>
I have much experimenting to do first, but I will catch up with you later.
<chrsnjk>
i had to extract it from the pdf
<beach>
chrsnjk: What does it do?
<chrsnjk>
it is a bit hackish and does not work in all cases
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<chrsnjk>
it asks swank what kind of symbol is under point
<chrsnjk>
so that it can highlight local variables, etc more sensibly
<beach>
How does it distinguish between a local variable and (say) a class name?
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<chrsnjk>
I believe it has its own code walker, with an environment that contains bindings (not 100% correct approach)
<Xach>
as i test newer SBCLs that break a lot, this may help focus in on the scope of issues.
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<PuercoPop>
mseddon: there already is one iirc, cxxr has an LSP server, although it wraps swank.
<PuercoPop>
I thought of starting one to developer a decent VSCode extension for Lisp, but after I started writing the extension for VSCode I found out their extension API sucks and one can't even properly take advantage of their built in browser.
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<user51>
is seibel's practical common lisp a good introduction? i already have some programming experience
<mfiano>
It appears fare-quasiquote broke varjo. That's unfortunate, since Baggers left Lisp about a year ago. I hope it doesn't get dropped.
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<Josh_2>
mfiano: thats a shame
<Josh_2>
user51: yes it is
<user51>
any other books that might be of interest?
<Josh_2>
all the CL books :P
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<user51>
come on, i'll never get any CL done that way :P
<user51>
also: any source code i could learn from?
<wsinatra>
Baggers left lisp?
<jackdaniel>
no, he is just focused on creating a (non-lisp) game, so temporarily he has less time for lisp
<wsinatra>
that makes more sense
<jackdaniel>
he comes to #lispgames from time to time;
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<Josh_2>
jackdaniel: I thought that might be the case
<user51>
that looks plenty interesting. also concides with my interests. big thanks!
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<ebrasca>
user51: There is #mezzano for this project.
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<dbotton>
<user51> the idea was for code examples it is not really a first book to start with
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<dbotton>
how old is that OS project? Mezzano
<jasom>
minion: tell user51 about paip
<minion>
user51: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
<jasom>
user51: that book has a lot of CL code with explanations
<user51>
thanks. i'll look at those once i'm done with LOL
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<ebrasca>
dbotton: Now Mezzano does have some years.
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<ChoHag>
Is there a way to do this without the eval: (define y 21)(define x 'y)(eval `(* ,x 2))
<ChoHag>
Uh that's scheme but you get the idea.
<ChoHag>
Hmm actually no doesn't lisp have a whole bunch of seperate namespaces?
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<Bike>
ChoHag: (* (symbol-value x) 2)
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