<jason_m>
Yes, if foo (the library) changes, I'll have to update my code. Not too worried about that.
<White_Flame>
I think it is a fairly open problem, though.
<White_Flame>
lots of code has &optional (foo *default-foo*) scattered in multiple layers of calls
<White_Flame>
instead of applying the default just where it's used
<White_Flame>
javascript actually handles this somewhat sanely with undefined vs null
<White_Flame>
(as surprising as that is for that language)
<White_Flame>
but you can't pass a runtime supplied-p parameter value in CL
<White_Flame>
(or the logical equivalent, however that might hypothetically be)
<jason_m>
Seems like maybe one could write a function that takes some kind of argument and value list... maybe an alist or a property list, and a lambda-list, and sorts it out returning a list matching the lambda list for the given arguments.
<jason_m>
But for now I'm going to use the (foo a b &rest c-d-e) approach you suggested to keep moving.
<White_Flame>
yep
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<rig0rmor_>
(wave)
<iissaacc>
sup beach
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<beach>
rig0rmor_: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
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<rig0rmor_>
yep :)
<beach>
Great! What brings you to #lisp?
<rig0rmor_>
a fairly new lisper as well, new enough to still be going through SICP right now
<beach>
Hmm, OK.
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<rig0rmor_>
in general have a fairly new relationship with lisp and have been doing down the rabbit hole a bit
<beach>
I suppose you know that SICP is based on Scheme and #lisp is dedicated to Common Lisp? Though some people follow SICP but do the exercises in Scheme.
<beach>
Er,
<beach>
Some people do the exercises in Common Lisp, I mean.
<rig0rmor_>
yes! I started playing around with common lisp as well (using sbcl)
<beach>
I see.
<aeth>
You're using Common Lisp? But I thought you said you were a newLISPer?
<rig0rmor_>
hah
<beach>
rig0rmor_: Also, you need to know that SICP is for teaching people about general principles of how programming works. But nobody writes code like that in practice.
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<rig0rmor_>
for sure - I've skimmed practical common lisp as well
<rig0rmor_>
I think I'm mostly exploring an interest in programming language theory, and compilers at the lower-level of that spectrum
<beach>
Excellent choices!
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<beach>
rig0rmor_: And Common Lisp is an excellent choice for programming-language design. It was designed by some very smart and very knowledgeable people. They were able to push the language very far, while remaining withing the boundary that still makes it possible to write compilers that generate fast code.
<beach>
Most languages fail in either one or the other or both those aspects.
<rig0rmor_>
yeah, it's been fun trying to grok the sbcl codebase too
<beach>
I might have chosen a word different than "fun" for that. :)
<rig0rmor_>
that's a little encouraging then hah
<beach>
If you want a more, how should I say this, "orthogonal" code base, you may want to look into SICL, though, the system does not exist yet, in that there is no native executable to run.
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<beach>
minion: Please tell rig0rmor_ about SICL.
<minion>
rig0rmor_: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
<beach>
Of course, you caught me during a major modification of many parts of the code base. We are extracting the management of global environments to a separate library, and we changed the signatures of all the generic functions in the process.
<rig0rmor_>
ahh robert has a series of videos on this on youtube I think?
<beach>
So it's a mess right now.
<beach>
The "Creating a Common Lisp Implementation" series?
<rig0rmor_>
all in my queue right now
<rig0rmor_>
yep!
<beach>
That's more general.
<rig0rmor_>
ah okay
<beach>
I mean, I will end up with SICL in the end, but I am starting off with simpler stuff. :)
<rig0rmor_>
awesome thanks for sharing the repo!
<beach>
Sure. If you have questions, we hang out in #sicl.
<rig0rmor_>
sweet
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<beach>
rig0rmor_: Oh, and #sicl seems to be the preferred hangout for people interested in all kinds of aspects of implementing not only SICL, and not only Common Lisp, but Lisp in general.
<pumpknckl>
to have bill gosper call you 'turing smart' is impressive.
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<Alfr>
phoe, okay. I was only paraphrasing the spec.
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<phoe>
yes, that is correct
<phoe>
though I don't know a single pair of implementations whose random states are interexchangeable
<phoe>
maybe Clasp and ECL, but I am not a Clasp user
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<beach>
phoe: When do you plan to schedule the next online Lisp meeting? I prefer Wednesday to Monday, but if push comes to shove, Monday works as well.
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<phoe>
beach: oh snap, I knew that I forgot to do something. I'll announce it today.
<phoe>
Wednesday sounds good.
<beach>
Oh, heh!
<beach>
Great!
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<phoe>
beach: I have an unexpected possible collision since one person that I didn't expect to reply to my mail replied sooner than I thought.
<phoe>
But I'll wait for yet another mail reply and then figure things out.
<phoe>
How long will be your talk?
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<beach>
phoe: Hard to say. Definitely less than an hour. But we can change days if you like.
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<phoe>
I am thinking right now
<phoe>
Basically I unexpectedly got a pair of hour-long talks for this next meeting
<beach>
I am flexible. Anything except Monday morning works. Or even the following week.
<phoe>
And now I need to figure out whether we want to accomodate both and have a 2.5h+ long meeting or whether we want to split that
<beach>
I can wait.
<phoe>
And I'm partial towards the other approach, which means that one of them will happen e.g. a week later
<beach>
Why don't you give some priority to those other talks.
<beach>
I am absolutely in no rush.
<beach>
I can wait two weeks if you like.
<phoe>
OK - thanks a million. I'll schedule yours on Wednesday 16th 13:00 CEST - is that OK?
<phoe>
I'd schedule it on 23rd but I might be unable to stream then
<phoe>
Hence only a week of delay between thet wo.
<phoe>
the two.
<beach>
Sounds good to me.
<phoe>
OK
<phoe>
time to prepare the announcements then
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<ldbeth>
good evening
<beach>
Hello ldbeth.
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<beach>
That looks like something resulting from recent changes in McCLIM.
<beach>
Maybe jackdaniel or scymtym can figure it out.
<scymtym>
Xach: i ran into that by accident yesterday. i believe this is stale/broken code in climacs which McCLIM now detects
<scymtym>
jackdaniel: ^
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<jackdaniel>
I've opened the offending file a moment ago
<beach>
We really should get Second Climacs up and running. *sigh* so much to do, so little time.
<scymtym>
jackdaniel: i think LISP-STRING used to be defined as a presentation type but was removed at some point. there are two or three other instances
* jackdaniel
was trying to be quiet, because he doesn't love climacs :)
<Xach>
wise
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<jackdaniel>
indeed, mcclim is more strict and detected a bug in climacs
<jackdaniel>
it defined commands specialized on presentation types, but the symbols were not imported
<jackdaniel>
so it was trying to define things on symbols which were not designating presentations
<jackdaniel>
Xach: please pull now
<jackdaniel>
(climacs, not mcclim)
<_death>
apparently (uiop:define-package #:foo (:import-from #:ajhasdjhas/asdjhasdjas)) where the import-from package does not exist, does not signal an error :/
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<phoe>
_death: likely it gets optimized away
<phoe>
it should check for that package's existence though
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<Xach>
especially if the define-package form is generated by a macro or other code
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<_death>
since I use package-inferred-systems it actually should've loaded the appropriate system, but it didn't.. quickloading it worked.. so I'd say something's fishy
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<_death>
it did load another system with a very similar name.. a/b/c/foo loaded and a/b/c/bar was not.. very strange
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<_death>
on the other hand, it's sbcl 1.3.10 so could use an update
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<_death>
and it seems new sbcl wants new gcc..
<_death>
(removing the -Wimplicit-fallthrough option worked)
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<contrapunctus>
Trying to decide on a parser generator library...I've tried esrap, I like the API, but the benchmarks on the MaxPC blog say it's significantly inefficient; MaxPC is AGPL; for some indescribable reason I find smug's API and documentation impenetrable 😔
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<_death>
oh, I screwed up the :import-from.. had (:import-from :package1 :package2) instead of two :import-from clauses
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<jasom>
contrapunctus: if you backtrack alot, esrap will be fast, if you backtrack rarely, it will be slow. I wrote an esrap parser for json and then basically the identical code as a recursive-descent parser and the latter was faster just because there was no backtracking. On the other hand I did a parser for restructured-text tables with a monadic parser and esrap beat the pants off of it, because it
<jasom>
spent 99% of the time backtracking.
<jasom>
contrapunctus: aren't smug and MaxPC very similar interfaces? They are both monadic parsers.
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<contrapunctus>
jasom: thanks for telling me about the effect of backtracking on performance; I'll try to analyze how often the language I'm trying to implement requires it, and keep it in mind when choosing a library.
<jasom>
contrapunctus: I mostly use esrap unless I know parsing will impact performance of the system, fwiw
<jasom>
or if I need inputs other than strings
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
contrapunctus: I wrote a parser for EDN with smug, and it was fast enough but significantly slower than Clojure's implementation (for $work I have to be able to process EDN files that are 10s of MB)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
The interface isn't horrible, if you know a little about parser-combinators :)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
But, like many libraries, documentation wasn't a priority :)
* fiddlerwoaroof
is havign weird issues with emacs allocating and never gcing like 10GB of memory
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* edgar-rft
is luckily not having such problems because he hasn't 10GB of RAM
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Emacs takes like 5 minutes to gc that amount of RAM
<rig0rmortis>
fiddlerwoaroof: have you tweaked gc-cons-threshold? I have (setq gc-cons-threshold 50000000) in my init to gc after 50mb
<edgar-rft>
fiddlerwoaroof: your RAM isn't garbage enough
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I have it to (* 100 1024)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Anyways, it's only happened to me with emacs 27
<rig0rmortis>
ah, weird
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<contrapunctus>
fiddlerwoaroof: EDN = Extensible Data Notation?
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Yeah, the clojure file format
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
If you need a textual way to serialize data structures, it's one of the better ones :) Fewer limitations than JSON, less annoying than YAML
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<contrapunctus>
Looks like...s-expressions o.O
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Yeah, with literals for maps, vectors and sets
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<pve>
_death: a follow-up to my metaclass trouble: it seems your suggestion to have one supermetaclass worked, so big thanks
<pve>
I didn't realise I only needed to define one validate-superclass method
<pve>
just goes to show this stuff is way to meta for me
<pve>
*too
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<_death>
cool
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<no-defun-allowed>
fiddlerwoaroof: If it looks vaguely like s-expressions, could a dispatch table technique work for EDN? That might be faster.
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<contrapunctus>
Trying to understand how to emit the IR for CommonDoc. There is documentation for defining the format as a GF with the associated methods, as well as for constructing a document as CLOS objects, but that seems different from what the Scriba parser does - it returns some plists. I could start trying to replicate its output, but I'd feel more confident if I could see some documentation on this subject...
<contrapunctus>
...hm, maybe I could go through the CommonDoc sources to understand what it expects 🤔
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<elioat>
does anyone know of a way to "pretty print" an s-expression when it is written to a file? I have a function that saves an s-expression to a file to later read it back
<elioat>
wicked! thanks so much no-defun-allowed and specbot
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<elioat>
(love to thank a bot)
<Bike>
keep in mind that if you pretty print it it's very possible it can't be read back (by CL:READ)
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<elioat>
that's a good point, Bike thanks! -- I'm thinking that a may actually just have a dump function that is for displaying this data in a human friendly manner, and then keep things as is.