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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Omg_cholesterol>
does lisp have pointers
<beach>
Omg_cholesterol: Sort of.
<Omg_cholesterol>
to implement malloc/free
<beach>
Omg_cholesterol: Common Lisp uses what I call "uniform reference semantics".
<beach>
Omg_cholesterol: It means that the semantics of Common Lisp work as if every object you manipulate is in reality a pointer or a reference to some chunk of memory.
<beach>
But your remark about malloc/free makes me think that you are asking a different question, perhaps.
<Omg_cholesterol>
its just dynamic memory allocation functions
<Omg_cholesterol>
which means you'd also need size_t and sizeof() and maybe typeof()
<beach>
Omg_cholesterol: That's not Common Lisp, so it doesn't apply.
<no-defun-allowed>
Why do you need malloc/free?
<Omg_cholesterol>
lets say I want to read a string from a file, you could just allocate a buffer and hope its big enough maybe 64K or you could calculate the size of the string then alloate a buffer of that size
<Omg_cholesterol>
note I dont mean a line necceserily
<no-defun-allowed>
If you want to reuse a buffer like that, you could use make-string to make the buffer, then repeatedly read-sequence into that buffer. When read-sequence returns a position less than the length of the buffer, you've finished consuming the stream.
<aeth>
Omg_cholesterol: What I usually do in this situation is I make an adjustable string like this starting with some power of 2 size: (make-array (expt 2 4) :element-type 'character :adjustable t :fill-pointer 0)
<aeth>
Omg_cholesterol: And then at the very end I (subseq adjustable-string 0 (fill-pointer adjustable-string)) to make a fixed-size (more efficient) string. This last step will copy, though, and isn't strictly necessary.
<aeth>
You add to it with vector-push-extend, which will extend it if necessary (in my example, it will start at 0 and only extend when it reaches 16)
<aeth>
And in theory, a compiler could probably recognize this idiom and not copy with the SUBSEQ if it knows that adjustable-string is only used within a very limited scope, but I doubt that optimization is done. (Instead, it would just change the type prefix of the string, which is a dangerous operation and would have to be done at the compiler level.)
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<aeth>
(Technically, a subseq is always supposed to allocate a new sequence, so this optimization would have to be very careful to not semantically change things and appear as if it is following the standard.)
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<aeth>
I think that this style (although it might not be 0 to FILL-POINTER because there might be parts of the string that you want to drop on either side) is the intended style for this in the standard because SUBSEQ (if used on a vector) turns an array into a simple array that otherwise has the same type, i.e. it will no longer be adjustable.
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<dbotton>
is there a facility in CL like emacs list to setup a variable watcher?
<dbotton>
emacs lisp
<flip214>
dbotton: you want some code run when a symbol-value changes?
<flip214>
If so, you'll need to write your own SETF method for that which calls some hook.
<flip214>
for specials, what about a binding in a thread?
<flip214>
and local variables might "vanish" in the sense that they're only a register in code, not a memory location anymore
<dbotton>
the binding to the watcher would go when scope left
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<dbotton>
certainly could roll my own. Was curious if something more standard
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<flip214>
so watching a dynamic variable? Can it leak out to other functions?
<beach>
That's an interesting idea for a feature of an implementation though. I wonder how efficient it could be, i.e., how to avoid too much slowdown when such a feature is enabled.
<dbotton>
<flip214> it is a risk.
<dbotton>
so you have to make sure your environment is sane first
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<dbotton>
it is used for debugging in emacs lisp
<beach>
dbotton: Emacs Lisp is not terribly fast, so the overhead of a watch point would not be that great. Your typical Common Lisp implementation is optimized for speed, so variables will be put in registers by the register allocator. Not only could you not put a watch point on such a thing without recompiling, but it would slow down the operation by an order of magnitude.
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<dbotton__>
I guess it would be possible that an implementation would know that a variable is being "watched" and add the appropriate call
<beach>
Without recompiling?
<beach>
Sounds hard.
<beach>
The code would have to be altered.
<beach>
Like a register move would have to turn into a call.
<beach>
Then all the rest of the code will need to be moved.
<dbotton__>
I guess I forget as I am learning CL that it is in the end a compiled language that just feel interpreted
<aeth>
lexical variables are only going to be guaranteed to be visibile in optimizing implementations like SBCL if (debug 3)
<flip214>
well, using single-stepping and a kind-of emulator is possible, but even slower
<flip214>
might be easier to just simulate running that function in an interpreter ;)
<beach>
dbotton__: There is no such thing as a compiled or interpreted language. It is all about implementation strategies.
<dbotton__>
of course
<aeth>
dbotton__: Any CL implementation is going to have a compilation phase, but it could be bytecode compilation (e.g. CLISP... and I guess technically ABCL on the JVM)
<aeth>
But even that phase is probably going to hide unnecessary lexical variables unless (debug 3).
<dbotton__>
in ABCL it should be straight forward using the JVM
<dbotton__>
you use the debugging facilities of the JVM
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<pve>
Hello! It seems that standard-class is an instance of standard-class (at least on SBCL). Is this magic, or can I replicate this for my own class? (i.e. have it be an instance of itself)
<no-defun-allowed>
I would guess magic, as one cannot change-class on a class.
<beach>
You can't replicate that. But it is also not magic.
<beach>
Though, of course, in SICL, I made a point of turning (defclass standard-class (...) ...) into something operational.
<pve>
ok, thank you
<beach>
pve: The only solution to avoiding an infinite metaclass hierarchy is to make the graph circular at some point.
<beach>
pve: This idea is quite well documented in the AMOP book.
<pve>
hmm yes
<pve>
I'm looking at a class diagram, and I *think* this means I'm not going to be able to recreate it exactly
<beach>
s/circular/cyclic/
<beach>
What I find most fascinating about it, is that the AMOP book assumes the situation where you want to add CLOS to an existing pre-ANSI Common Lisp implementation, so the only solution to these problems (bootstrapping and metastability problems) they suggest are based on that situation.
<beach>
the only solutionS
<beach>
And those solutions make the structure of their code more ugly than it has to be.
<pve>
beach: do you mean, as opposed to including it from the beginning?
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<beach>
Yes, sort of. And to build your Common Lisp implementation from one that already has CLOS and the MOP.
<beach>
But there is this widespread idea that to create some system, you can only use systems that are less complete (less powerful, more primitive, whatever) than the one you are creating.
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<beach>
I understand the AMOP point of view in that, at the time, there was no implementation available with CLOS already in it.
<beach>
But I don't understand how they could omit a chapter on what to do better if such an implementation existed (which, of course it inevitably will, once you have added CLOS).
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<dra>
Hello!
<beach>
Hello dra.
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<pve>
I wonder what the implications are if I just have my class be an instance of standard-class and be done with it, since I can't achieve the circularity myself.
<no-defun-allowed>
What would you want to achieve with the circularity?
<beach>
By default, classes created using DEFCLASS are instances of STANDARD-CLASS.
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<pve>
I'm finding it pretty hard to think about these things
<beach>
pve: Try (defclass cc () ()) then (find-class 'cc)
<beach>
Actually, just the DEFCLASS will do. It returns the class that was created.
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<beach>
pve: Welcome to the club. It takes time to get used to that kind of stuff.
<pve>
no-defun-allowed: I'm not even sure what it will accomplish, I'm just trying to recreate or approximate the Smalltalk-80 class hierarchy, as described in the "Blue book"
<no-defun-allowed>
I see.
<beach>
pve: One thing that helps is to remember the naming convention. If you say "x is a thing", that means "x is an instance of the class named thing". So when you say that "cc is a standard class", it means that it is an instance of the class STANDARD-CLASS.
<pve>
and it says "the metaclass of Metaclass must be an instance of Metaclass"
<pve>
beach: right
<beach>
pve: The solution to that problem is to avoid mapping Smalltalk classes to Common Lisp classes. Just make them non-class Common Lisp objects. Then you can have a slot that refers to the object itself.
<no-defun-allowed>
In Netfarm, there is also a circular schema hierarchy; a schema is an instance of the schema named "the schema schema". (You could probably say that quickly out loud, but it's no fun to think about). I also wanted to recreate that in Lisp, but then the schema class would be an instance of itself.
<beach>
pve: There is nothing particularly special about class metaobjects. They are just objects themselves, and they act as templates in that you can call a function to create an instance of the model, i.e. MAKE-INSTANCE.
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<beach>
instance of the TEMPLATE, I mean.
<no-defun-allowed>
So instead, there is a NETFARM-CLASS metaclass, and a SCHEMA class that is an instance of that. One can fabricate a NETFARM-CLASS from a schema using SCHEMA->CLASS, which is reasonable for my uses.
<beach>
pve: So if you are implementing a different programming language, just represents classes in that language by non-class objects in Common Lisp, and create yourself the equivalent of MAKE-INSTANCE in your language that creates an "instance" of that non-class object.
<no-defun-allowed>
What I am considering for a Smalltalk-80 implementation is to represent the instances with object slots with one structure class, the instances with byte slots with another, and the instances with 16-bit word slots with another.
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<pve>
beach: I see your point, but I feel like I'd lose a lot of good stuff by not mapping to CL classes. If possible, I'd like to have seamless integration between CL and my language.
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<Gnuxie[m]>
There's no reason why it won't be seamless
<pve>
although I haven't yet considered what you suggested fully
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<schweers>
This may seem like a pretty silly question, but here goes anyway: do you often use AMOP during day-to-day programming? I’ve got the AMOP book at home and tried to understand it, but have had trouble so far. So currently I’m living without it. Am I missing alot?
<beach>
schweers: If you do "application programming" you only occasionally need some custom metaclass or some custom method combination. But to answer your question, I use the MOP in my day-to-day programming, which is about implementing a fully conforming Common Lisp implementation.
<_death>
if you mean writing code that uses the MOP, it depends on what kind of programs you write and what style you choose to use for them.. personally I've not written MOP-related code for a long time now
<schweers>
Yes, I meant application programming. So it seems my plan to do properly learn about it some time is warrented, but not urgent.
<schweers>
Thanks for the answers!
<beach>
pve: Right, if you want some kind of integration with Common Lisp, like if you want to write methods on your Smalltalk classes in Common Lisp, and use DEFMETHOD to do that, then my suggestion may not work, but that is much harder problem for other reasons as well.
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<pve>
beach: yep, that was pretty much what I was thinking of.. it's not going to be a stand-alone language, but rather something to play with when I feel like going on a language-safari within the confines of my comfy REPL :)
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<mfiano>
I recall there being html to create collpasible/expandable tree nodes. that would be a good way to present the information in a concise way to really see the main offenders, with the option to expand for more details
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<Xach>
hmm
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<borodust>
the problem is there's branch stable and tag stable
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<phoe>
ouch
<borodust>
Xach: should be fine now
<Xach>
ah!
<Xach>
borodust: fine how?
<Xach>
oh, oops - i am looking at claw-utils
<Xach>
that has a tag stable also
<Xach>
but no branch
<borodust>
yeh, it should be tag rather than branch
<Xach>
or rather...
* Xach
tries to puzzle it out in his head
<borodust>
depending on how you checkout, should make no difference
<Xach>
borodust: is it a moving tag??
<borodust>
yes
<_death>
that's what branches are for..
<Xach>
borodust: the "stable" tag seems to be from april - is that the one to use?
<borodust>
:) i don't remember why i decided to use tags that way
<borodust>
Xach: yes
<borodust>
Xach: :claw doesn't use that sffi cruft anymore
<borodust>
since ages
<borodust>
i kinda don't touch stuff that works in quicklisp and mainly distribute via custom dist
<borodust>
system in quicklisp was 3yo or smth
<Xach>
borodust: are all the projects in issue #1909 tags and not branches?
<borodust>
yes
<Xach>
cffi-c-ref, claw-support, c2ffi-blob?
<Xach>
ok
<borodust>
_death: i think the reasoing was that i really need a point in history to pin rather than something inherently moving
<borodust>
_death: basically, what i did with branches was just resetting them to something in master
<borodust>
kinda taggy feeling
<Xach>
great, i have made progress, thanks borodust
<Xach>
i hope the tag motion does not foul me up in the future - we'll see in 2023!
<_death>
borodust: sure, if it works for you.. I always treated tags as user-friendly names for commits, but maybe it's a narrow view
<borodust>
Xach: thanks!
<borodust>
_death: i don't disagree
<borodust>
for some reason git gave me that power, and, as a human, i abused it
<_death>
borodust: the git-tag manpage repeatedly calls it "insane" :)
<borodust>
pretty much sums up whatever i'm doing
<d4ryus>
You will run into all kinds of issues when you move tags, i guess since they are not supposed to. For example, fetching fails when tags get moved.
<borodust>
d4ryus: hm? never bumped into such behavior
<borodust>
cuz no one contributes to my software, ofc
<borodust>
because only place i'm using tags in that way is stable/testing things in my lisp software
<ebrasca>
Hi
<beach>
Hello ebrasca.
<d4ryus>
git wont "clobber" existing tags if fetch.pruneTags (or similar) is not set and -f (force) is not specified. You get a "... would clobber existing tags" error message.
<borodust>
hmm
<borodust>
one day i'll check if that's the case ;p
<borodust>
this one here says you don't need to do anything and will overwrite them alright
<borodust>
internets - choose answer you prefer most
<borodust>
although someone else said it's a version dependent thing, well, whatever
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<borodust>
using moving tags is clearly insane, don't be me
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* borodust
sometimes accesses internal symbols without asking API authors to expose them
<borodust>
i feed on power ;p
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<_death>
(declaim (optimize (power 3)))
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<rpg>
sly question -- When I use slime, I get the ability to use the key prefix "C-c l" to switch back and forth between the various slime windows (repl, debugger, inspector, lisp code, etc.). I don't seem to have that in sly. Anyone know if there's a contrib for this? Or what is the contrib in SLIME that needs translating?
<mfiano>
First thing I would do is check to see what that is bound to under your SLIME config, because that keybinding is not mentioned in the SLIME manual.
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<mfiano>
It also seems not to be found anywhere in the source tree, contrib or not
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<rpg>
mfiano: Looks like it's `slime-selector` and it's in `slime.el`
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<mfiano>
I do not see a keymap for that function in slime.el
<mfiano>
That is different than the binding you mentioned. No wonder
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<rpg>
Yes, no wonder. Took me quite a while to find that... And it turns out there's a `sly-selector`, too.
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<Xach>
borodust: should i update all bodge-* to use tags?
<Xach>
i'm getting "refname 'stable' is ambiguous" for e.g. bodge-glfw
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* Xach
clears cache and gets it
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<borodust>
Xach: yeh, ill cleanup bodge* libs from stqble branches in a few mins
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<contrapunctus>
beach: I'd really like to work on a Lisp OMR (optical music recognition) software someday, as you mention in Suggested Projects. IIRC there are attempts at doing this using neural networks - do you see this approach (combined with interactive proofreading/correction) as sufficient, or is there a better way? 🤔
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<borodust>
Xach: should be fixed, i've run through every repo i have and switched to stable tag
<Xach>
Maybe bodge in quicklisp is just a nuisance for all and people should use the custom dist?
<borodust>
which should point to lastest commit
<Xach>
I am not opposed to changing it either way
<Xach>
To keep, or to drop
<Xach>
Ah, ok, i failed to retry bodge-sndfile
<borodust>
lets keep em
<Xach>
Sorry for the false alarm
<borodust>
i thought about dropping, but there's a system in quicklisp that already depend on some (bodge-glfw in particular)
<borodust>
so i guess, now i have to maintain them
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<borodust>
i wish i knew better at the time and just put 'em all into custom dist (bodge* stuff moves really fast)
<borodust>
hindsight is 20/20
* Xach
grabs bodge-libc-essentials
* borodust
scratches his head
<borodust>
thanks much
<borodust>
i'll be a better person next time
<Xach>
so should we all
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* Xach
files so many bug reports
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<Xach>
borodust: is bodge-nuklear still viable? it seems to depend-on clutz?
<Xach>
(do i need to refresh cache again or something?)
<Xach>
ah, i think this is failure on my end. checking harder.
<Xach>
ok, yes, it works as expected now.
<Xach>
sorry again for the false alarm
<Nilby>
Xach: wow, do you send reports for all the stuff on report.quicklisp.org? it seems like 100s of ... X conflicts with its asserted type X ... in 2.0.9
<Xach>
Nilby: i do. in many cases a single fix can take care of 25 failures, so it's not as bad as it looks.
<Nilby>
Xach: still pretty heroic effort
<Nilby>
If only I would send to many bug reports to myself, maybe I'd fix something.
<Xach>
I have been updating the reports a bit lately to better direct my bug reports. Now I can more easily tell what fixes offer the most payoff.
<Nilby>
nice, I like how they have all the links in them
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<no-defun-allowed>
Is there a library to generate inheritance graphs for classes? It wouldn't be hard to make, but I'd rather not make another.
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<rpg>
no-defun-allowed: I *think* that might be available in cl-dot, but I can't swear to it.
<no-defun-allowed>
I'll go check then.
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<rpg>
In sly, how do you do a normal search backwards in the repl buffer? The default keys are grabbed for history search, but sometimes I want to look up in the *buffer* instead of the history.
<no-defun-allowed>
Yes, there's an example examples/class-example.lisp that does exactly that. Thanks!
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<earl-ducaine>
Hello Lispizens! What is the best (most portable) way to refer to tab characters in CL?
<earl-ducaine>
Of course most modern versions support #\tab but that's technically non-standard.
<earl-ducaine>
I've looked for a trivial compatability library, but there doesn't seem to be one that addresses special characters.
<earl-ducaine>
e.g. the Babel unicode library
<no-defun-allowed>
Assuming your implementation uses a superset of ASCII, #.(code-char 9) is one way of referring to #\Tab "portably".
<rpg>
no-defun-allowed: Glad that worked!
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