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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<sveit>
beach: good evening (here)!
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<aeth>
sveit: I believe you mean (format t "~A: good evening ~A!" beach (here))
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<sveit>
maybe they're still taking suggestions for additions to the standard :)
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<contrapunctus>
beach: I was thinking of doing as you suggested - writing pure Lisp libraries instead of using FFI. Is it possible to write an audio library this way? Especially for programs which want to use PulseAudio or JACK? 🤔
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<beach>
contrapunctus: That would be fantastic! I have never attempted to interface with those systems so, I don't know what it involves. Some reading might be required.
<beach>
It has bound to be some kind of wire protocol, and it is hopefully documented.
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<moon-child>
contrapunctus: in the case of jack, I know there are multiple independent server implementations; so I expect the story there is better
<no-defun-allowed>
Yeah, I'm worried that the only stable interface would be the C interface.
<MichaelRaskin>
Yeah, Poettering is known for saying that committing to too many stable interfaces is dangerous, and «dangerous» is literally the word used (although in another context).
<no-defun-allowed>
Reminds me of another software guy that gave a talk about how he needed to break implementations in his messaging program or the world would end, so you better not write another implementation.
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<contrapunctus>
It's a daunting task, especially for someone like me (no experience in programming at this level, limited available time for programming) 🤔
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<beach>
contrapunctus: There is no rush.
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<beach>
contrapunctus: In fact, you could write something that uses neither Jack nor PulseAudio to start with, and just use the ALSA interface directly. You can design your own substitute for Jack and PulseAudio in the form of a CLOS protocol, designed to run in the same process as the applications. Such a thing would be useful on Mezzano and ultimately on CLOSOS.
<beach>
contrapunctus: Then you can write your applications so that the use that protocol. If you want your applications to have a GUI, all of them could be written as CLIM/McCLIM applications.
<contrapunctus>
beach: ah, that could work too (although I have no experience with using these APIs, much less designing them). The most important thing is that existing audio plugins work...but I guess that's orthogonal, because those use LADSPA/LV2/DSSI 🤔
<beach>
I must take your word for that.
<beach>
I was merely suggesting a way that you could concentrate on writing your applications in Common Lisp without chasing unstable protocols, at least to begin with. And your code would then be useful in different settings without modification.
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<no-defun-allowed>
I wrote some code with that to synthesize notes coming in from a MIDI keyboard, and it was pretty good (except that I couldn't figure out how to reduce the latency of PulseAudio, so my timing was awful). The only problem for a full Common Lisp audio system could be that it uses foreign vectors to pass buffers around, but it's not hard to imagine a Harmony with Lisp vectors.
<beach>
no-defun-allowed: Harmony sounds like a good plan.
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<contrapunctus>
no-defun-allowed: oh, thanks for sharing that
<beach>
MayheM_FAN: Please describe what this link contains.
<beach>
I never click on links without a description.
<MayheM_FAN>
cffi loading error
<MayheM_FAN>
cffi-features was unable to load because of this
<beach>
MayheM_FAN: I know nothing about FFI, but I am guessing you are not providing enough information for anyone to help out, like what you tried in order to get that error, what Common Lisp implementation you are using, on which OS, etc.
<MayheM_FAN>
i tried loading cl-tcod using quicklisp, im using clisp and im on windows
<beach>
MayheM_FAN: That's a very unusual combination. I think most people here use SBCL on Linux.
<MichaelRaskin>
And if you are using the latest _release_ of CLisp, it's kind of expected to fail to load random things by now…
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<MichaelRaskin>
(development snapshot has at least a chance, releases are too old for anything)
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<MayheM_FAN>
i think i need libffi?
<beach>
You are not sure?
<beach>
What is it that you are trying to do?
<MichaelRaskin>
libffi is definitely a library that exists and is used for FFI; no idea where to get a fresh Windows build
<MayheM_FAN>
loading cl-tcod with quicklisp, while it was loading cffi-features (cl-tcod requires cffi) it gave me that error
<phoe>
MayheM_FAN: do you have libffi installed on windows?
<beach>
MayheM_FAN: You seem to be new here. Is this one of your first Common Lisp projects?
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<beach>
MayheM_FAN: Again, my guess is that very few people here will be able to help you, given that they are not using the unique combination of implementation and OS that you are. I hope I am wrong, of course.
<phoe>
MayheM_FAN: I guess you can, just remember to grab the proper 32/64bit DLL
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<phoe>
it needs to be the same architecture as your Lisp implementation, otherwise it won't load
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<MayheM_FAN>
know what,, im just gonna install linux
<phoe>
that's a good choice, too
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<TheInformaticist>
Are Common Lisp and Clojure the same language?
<MichaelRaskin>
No
<TheInformaticist>
Are they similar?
<beach>
TheInformaticist: Clojure is considered a functional language. Common Lisp is not.
<TheInformaticist>
If Common Lisp is not a functional language, then what IS it?
<beach>
TheInformaticist: Common Lisp has an independent standard. Clojure does not.
<beach>
TheInformaticist: Multi-paradigm. A lot of modern Common Lisp code uses the Common Lisp object system (CLOS) a lot.
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<TheInformaticist>
I see. So Common Lisp is more flexible.
<beach>
I would be very careful with such simplistic comparisons.
<beach>
There is no widely agreed-upon metric for "flexibility".
<TheInformaticist>
Why, will my hand get blown off by a grenade?
<beach>
More likely, you get trashed in some forum.
<TheInformaticist>
Oh well, fuck me.
<TheInformaticist>
If you want to trash me, trash away, old boy.
<heisig>
beach: Saying Common Lisp is not a functional language is like saying German is not a language for writing poems.
<MichaelRaskin>
(naturally, a lot of Clojure code uses a lot of objects — but from Java object system)
<heisig>
Neither is true. But it depends mostly on the author/programmer, and not so much on the language.
<beach>
I'll be quiet.
<beach>
I wasn't looking for a debate. Merely trying to inform TheInformaticist.
<TheInformaticist>
Hey, don't blame me. I'm just the simpleton asking questions.
<beach>
Nobody blamed you for anything.
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<TheInformaticist>
Thank God.
<sts-q>
The cool thing about CL is it did not change a bit within the last 30 years!
<Nilby>
Sometimes it feels like Goethe has a similar aesthetic as old epic Common Lisp.
<MichaelRaskin>
sts-q: except everything (well, ASDF), depends on extensions
<TheInformaticist>
It really hasn't changed? That's a good sign, in my opinion. Everything's getting updated so constantly nowadays, you don't know what's going to be broken next.
<MichaelRaskin>
Still more uniform that the Scheme situation, of course
<TheInformaticist>
That's good. By the way, does Common Lisp have primitive procedures for graphics?
<MichaelRaskin>
No
<beach>
I know of no language that does.
<TheInformaticist>
I see. So do you use a graphics package?
<MichaelRaskin>
beach: QBasic
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<MichaelRaskin>
On a more positive note, Racket
<TheInformaticist>
Well beach, back in the good old days, most languages came with grahics.
<TheInformaticist>
*graphics
<Nilby>
also PostScript
<TheInformaticist>
With the exception of FORTRAN and C, of course.
<beach>
MichaelRaskin: When I say or hear "language", I think if a definition, usually in the form of an independent standard, of what some language processor allows or does not allow.
<beach>
Does QBasic and Racket have independent standards?
<beach>
TheInformaticist: Turbo Pascal is a product, not a language.
<beach>
True Basic probably the same.
<TheInformaticist>
beach: You don't get to weasel out of things by making your own definitions.
<TheInformaticist>
True Basic is ANSI Basic, owned by the designers of the language, Kemeny and Kurtz.
<beach>
So ANSI Basic is the language.
<TheInformaticist>
And for you info, beach, you can't program a computer with a standard. You need a language for that.
<beach>
Thank you for that information.
* beach
was under the impression that an "implementation" was required for that. Wrong again, I guess.
<TheInformaticist>
beach: You remind me of my ex-wife.
<MichaelRaskin>
Given that an interpreter or compiler typically comes before any standards, and then becomes or not an implementation of standard… no, you can perfectly use a thing that is not yet an implementation of anything
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<TheInformaticist>
Can I make cool video games with Common Lisp?
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, Shinmera does
<TheInformaticist>
Who is Shinmera? Do you have a link?
<TheInformaticist>
You know, I was using a Common Lisp tiling window manager for quite a while, and I really liked it.
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<TheInformaticist>
But then I got EXWM and started using Emacs more. But to be honest, that other window manager was better, because you weren
<TheInformaticist>
t
<TheInformaticist>
having to fiddle with buffers all the time.
<MichaelRaskin>
Yeah, still using StumpWM. And for an editor, I use an editor extending what is promised by an independent standard, heh
<TheInformaticist>
Which editor is that?
<MichaelRaskin>
Specifically vim; but _some_ vi is required by POSIX/Single Unix Specification (which is approximately the same thing, modulo legalese)
<TheInformaticist>
I see. You know...
<TheInformaticist>
Shhhh, don't tell anybody...
<TheInformaticist>
I secretly really like ed.
<TheInformaticist>
I feel like a ninja kung-fu artist every time I use it. Whahhhhhh!!!!
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<MichaelRaskin>
Who needs ed in the era where sed exists
<beach>
Let's try to stay on topic, please.
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<TheInformaticist>
Hey, I should make an editor and call it bread...and write it in Lisp. There, I'm on topic.
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<TheInformaticist>
beach: You should work for the government.
<TheInformaticist>
beach:...writing Lisp programs, of course.
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<contrapunctus>
MichaelRaskin: a Lisper using Vim? Whoa 🤯
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<MichaelRaskin>
And liking POSIX Shell. Common Lisp is a valuable tool, not an exclusive religion.
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<TheInformaticist>
Does anyone ever do data anylitics with Lisp? Seems like it would be fun.
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<MichaelRaskin>
Depends on your definition, but probably something I have done would qualify
<TheInformaticist>
Cool. I've also thought that sh or bash tools can be really powerful for cleaning up and formatting data, and yet most "data analytics" people seem to be unaware that these tools exist.
<TheInformaticist>
I mean coreutils and such
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<TheInformaticist>
MichaelRaskin: Ever use the suckless terminal (which is definitely NOT written in Lisp, unlike eshell)?
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<MichaelRaskin>
That is far into #lispcafe zone. (But nope, urxvt, sometimes xterm and mlterm, fbterm when without X)
<TheInformaticist>
Is #lispcafe another channel?
<sts-q>
Yes
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<mseddon>
So given there is no standard way to e.g. locate defstruct constructor function names, how would one go about implementing a custom reader that supports #S syntax vaguely portably?
<APic>
go #Suicide
<APic>
Fail
<APic>
Sorry
<APic>
Wrong Network 😉
<mseddon>
Lul. Also not on my list of accepted solutions
<MichaelRaskin>
Why custom reader and not a reader-macro?
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<Nilby>
mseddon: Sadly there can't a portable version, but you can make one that has implementation-specific code for most implementations.
<mseddon>
MichaelRaskin specifically I want to have a standardized reader for bootstrapping.
<mseddon>
Nilby right.. i found various classoid apis for sbcl, but there is no reflection defstruct library that would cover that? :/
<mseddon>
MichaelRaskin, so like eclector I want to track source information, which the standard reader does not support
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<mseddon>
But eclector bails on #S and leaves a hook for you to tie into your implementation, so I wondered if there was a better way
<mseddon>
Everything else is 100% portable, but sadly I think I have hit an oversight in the spec
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<Nilby>
mseddon: Last time I looked a I didn't find one. I have code that works on sbcl, ccl, and maybe a few others. Maybe the people working on eclector have some suggestion?
<mseddon>
Nilby thanks, I will check. Certainly trivial defstruct reflection that works across platforms would be useful for me here
<Nilby>
Me too!
<mseddon>
Nilby happy to help add stuff if you put a project up somewhere!
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<Nilby>
I'm not smart enough to pass the captcha on plaster anymore. :(
<Nilby>
mseddon: I'm not really a good choice for being a project maintainer, but here's what I had: https://bpa.st/C4OQ . You're welcome to do whatever with it. This was designed for use in eclector.
<mseddon>
Nilby, wonderful, thanks very much!
<Nilby>
Of course it does bad things that "one should never do"
<mseddon>
At this point I think the warranty is well and truly void :)
<Nilby>
yep. This is one of my top changes I would make to CL. To have a standardized make-structure-instance or something.
<_death>
you can check the result of make-load-form-using-slots
<_death>
for sbcl only the struct name is needed to allocate an instance.. for others you may need something more elaborate
<mseddon>
_death: good shout! I will dig deeper tomorrow when I'm at the computer, thanks
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<_death>
*...saving-slots
<mseddon>
Yeah, I figured ;) thanks again though, I hadn't come across that function before
<Nilby>
_death: Your words have a very high ratio of making me realize I'm stupid and have to rewrite my code. :)
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<_death>
sorry, I'll keep quiet ;)
<mseddon>
_death: please don't :p
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<Nilby>
_death: Ya. Don't. My code needs more "memeto mori".
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<fzfzfzv28>
hey can someone explain why (typep #("hello") '(vector number *)) => T?
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<phoe>
fzfzfzv28: (upgraded-array-element-type 'number) ;=> T
<phoe>
that is because of array upgrading
<phoe>
'(vector number *) most likely becomes '(vector t *) because of the element type being upgraded
<phoe>
that is because numbers have 1) unbounded size in the general case, 2) can be complex or real
<Nilby>
number is a rich enough type that it might as well be a generic lisp object.
<fzfzfzv28>
thank you! I tried (typep #("hello") '(vector (integer 0 10) *)) => NIL which makes sense in that context.
<fzfzfzv28>
is there a way to do something like this that isnt implementation dependent?
<phoe>
yes, because (integer 0 10) likely gets upgraded to a fixnum, or some subset thereof
<phoe>
fzfzfzv28: what exactly do you want to do though? check if all elements of a vector are numbers?
<fzfzfzv28>
yes
<phoe>
(every #'numberp #("hello"))
<phoe>
I don't think the CL type system is powerful enough to perform this on the type level, unless you use SATISFIES
<phoe>
(also, do you *really* need arbitrary precision numbers and complexes?)
<phoe>
(asking because CL is efficient and nice to play with when it comes to fixed-width byte and float types)
<dbotton>
what is the lisp way of something I do always in Ada ie create a named type such as myint that has a range of 0 to 100
<phoe>
dbotton: DEFTYPE can do that
<phoe>
(deftype my-integer () '(integer 0 100))
<fzfzfzv28>
@phoe: my actual use case is im reducing a vector of strings and functions that produce strings into one string.
<dbotton>
so then I could use that it a declare type in a function
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<phoe>
dbotton: yes
<phoe>
something like (vector "foo" #'bar "baz" #'quux) ?
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<phoe>
fzfzfzv28: a vector of strings and functions? you mean a heterogenous vector?
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<phoe>
dbotton: e.g. it is common to (deftype octet () '(unsigned-byte 8)) and then e.g. (declare (type octet x y z))
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<dbotton>
I keep getting more excited the further I go in exploring the combo of static and dynamic typing
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<dbotton>
so using satisfied allows that every declared use if the type would pass some arbitrary tesy
<dbotton>
tests
<dbotton>
so I could add a whole in my definition
<dbotton>
like 1..50 and 55..100
<dbotton>
correct?
<phoe>
dbotton: whole? what do you mean?
<dbotton>
like a range I just mentioned
<phoe>
the ranges 1..50 and 55..100 are expressible via an OR type, (or (integer 1 50) (integer 55 100))
<phoe>
no need to use SATISFIES
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<phoe>
(you could, it would just be a bit more costly)
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<dbotton>
understand
<dbotton>
appreciated taking a bit longer then my usual to get up to speed on a lang
<dbotton>
but I am more and more impressed.
<phoe>
no worries, learning Lisp can be a bit of a mind twister
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<dbotton>
granted that would require some tools to enforce certain policies but seems that critical systems certainly could be done in lisp
<mseddon>
dbotton: moreover, it seems to generally more make sense in lisp. Though as you discover, the capability is buried a bit
<dbotton>
I am finding the level of flexibility at compile time can make this a more then ideal choice once control of the GC in check
<dbotton>
I've been writing Ada for good 25 years
<dbotton>
and now wishing I had stumbled on lisp earlier
<TheInformaticist>
Are there multiple implementations of Common Lisp, or just one?
<mseddon>
Many, many.
<dbotton>
and many with very nice open licensing
<phoe>
TheInformaticist: I know of seven alive ones for sure
<TheInformaticist>
I see. Which one is the best? Just kidding...which one is FSF?
<phoe>
SBCL, CCL, ECL, Clasp, ABCL are the free ones
<phoe>
LispWorks and ACL are the commercial ones
<TheInformaticist>
I don't do proprietary software.
<mseddon>
Dbotton: arian 5 would not have blown up in cl, it wouldn't let you unsafely cast to a 16 bit value
<shoshin>
what about clisp?
<dbotton>
that was user error
<MichaelRaskin>
mseddon: of all things, Ariane 5 would not be saved by Common Lisp
<phoe>
CLISP is unmaintained and I cannot recommend it at the moment
<mseddon>
Well no. CL is not a hard realtime system
<dbotton>
doesn't mean can't be :)
<MichaelRaskin>
CLISP development snapshot is better, but they cannot get around to make a release
<dbotton>
the pieces are all there and more
<dbotton>
once I fully grocked cl I'll plan on doing some docs for my own start on what is needed translation from Ada etc
<TheInformaticist>
OK, which one is good for a new learner that is on Linux and uses Emacs?
<dbotton>
sdcl
<MichaelRaskin>
SBCL is probably the most popular one
<TheInformaticist>
OK, I'll look at both. I also just installed a weird version of Scheme nobody has heard of, LOL...but I know about it because of a professor.
<mseddon>
Scheme is an interesting lisp but vastly different to CL
<TheInformaticist>
That's why I'm learning CL. I'll come back to Scheme later.
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<mseddon>
Right
<TheInformaticist>
I'm also learning C++ right now in class. I know this is crazy, but I'm working overtime, doing all my programming exercises in both languages...trying to see if I can do my final project in a functional style. I want to give my professor a pleasant surprise.
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<mseddon>
Do not overfill the bucket
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<TheInformaticist>
I'm having fun...no worries.
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<dbotton>
anyone know a good resource book chapter or online that would have all the "type checking" related lisp info in one place
<dbotton>
clhp doesn't count
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<dbotton>
clhs rather
<specbot>
Couldn't find anything for rather.
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<mseddon>
Kaplan-ullman type propagation. If you find a complete set of rules lmk...
<sm2n>
common lisp recipes chapter 13 maybe?
<sm2n>
has lots of examples, though the spec is more comprehensive
<sm2n>
that doesn't really talk of inference though, as that depends on the implementation
<dbotton>
thanks
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<mseddon>
Ah yes, as sm2n says, no implementations need to support inference
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<mseddon>
The rules are defined entirely by runtime behaviour
<mseddon>
But e.g. ts has rediscovered this
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<Xach>
Not great that (asdf:system-relative-pathname "system" "foo") is critically different from (asdf:system-relative-pathname "system" #p"foo"))
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<phoe>
the only different thing is TYPE versus VERSION in the two resulting pathnames
<Xach>
phoe: read the sources; if you pass a string, it goes through asdf/uiop's non-standard pathname parsing mechanism, which mangles e.g. "foo/**/*.txt"
<Xach>
if you pass a pathname, it doesn't.
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<Fare>
non-standard, but portable, unlike the standard, but non-portable, mechanism.
<Fare>
Unhappily, you have to choose between the two. Happily, you can.
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<Fare>
portable, including to non-Unix systems like Genera, RMCL, Windows, etc., where the separator is not /
<dbotton_>
but I need it to be standard CL for my plans
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<mseddon>
I think the idea is you would adapt it...
<mseddon>
It's a well defined dataflow equation.
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<mseddon>
dbotton_: thanks, that was an enjoyable read, I'd not come across it.
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<dbotton>
I'll take a better look at it tomorrow evening
<dbotton>
thanks. heading out
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<anddam>
howdy
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* Xach
revisits the inconvenient death of bitbucket mercurual repos
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<AeroNotix>
how do I represent a bit field in a C struct when using cffi??
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<_death>
there's defbitfield
<AeroNotix>
the library I am wrapping sets a struct field to `enum foobar flags:8`. The enum is defined with defcenum. How do I use it like that?
<AeroNotix>
it seems I will need to override the type in my wrapper from the enum, to type I create with defbitfield. Seems a bit awkward.
<AeroNotix>
I saw defbitfield, but was wondering if there's a better way
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<_death>
heh, I don't think I've encountered anything like that (and I've been doing this for some time..).. I'd guess it's not even standard C, but I could be wrong
<AeroNotix>
let me link you the original source, sec
<_death>
you can manually convert between enum and int
<AeroNotix>
_death: so I'm using swig to generate the bindings... I would like to keep using swig just to make things automatic (unless there's a different auto-approach). I kinda don't want to need to maintain some cffi definition code.
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<_death>
ok, C99 standard 6.7.2.1 paragraph 4 says "A bit-field shall have a type that is a qualified or unqualified version of _Bool, signed int, unsigned int, or some other implementation-defined type".. so I'm guessing it's an extension
<_death>
AeroNotix: never used swig (well, I may have tried it a decade ago I think..).. for automatic wrapping I use autowrap
<AeroNotix>
_death: I'll check autowrap out
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<AeroNotix>
autowrap looks good but I would need to rewrite a bunch of stuff. Not a bad thing just some thing not for today
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<p_l>
btw, does anyone know of solid implementation of Symbolics' DEFRESOURCE macro with permissive license (unlike LGPLed one in McCLIM?)
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<Aurora_v_kosmose>
rip?
<aeth>
DEC Alpha was actually killed by Itanium. I guess they figured that they couldn't compete with Intel there so they... very prematurely gave up.
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<p_l>
aeth: more likely is that intel said "pretty please" and compaq answered "how high"
<aeth>
yeah, since they probably made way more money as an x86 OEM
<p_l>
aeth: when Alpha was canceled, it was the speed leader, Itanium was still "will be available soon, honestly", and pretty much everyone outside of decision making circle was caught flat footed
<aeth>
If SBCL dropping DEC Alpha makes room for RISC-V, though, I guess all is fine.
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