Turl changed the topic of #linux-sunxi to: Allwinner/sunxi /development discussion - did you try looking at our wiki? https://linux-sunxi.org - Don't ask to ask. Just ask and wait! - https://github.com/linux-sunxi/ - Logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/linux-sunxi
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<lwh`> I checked fex files of other sunxi boards and gemei_g9 looks almost like that of mine (inet-3f-rev06). What bothers me is dram_clock, which is 408 and on gemei, 432. Is it possible that devs underlocked inet-3f and it really can handle 432?
<KotCzarny> doesnt mattery much
<KotCzarny> 408 is probably because it's more stable safe value
<lwh`> So I should keep it that way?
<KotCzarny> sure, first make something that boots, then you can tweak
<lwh`> It got me thinking, I just have to recompile dts after modificiation, right? I don't need to rebuild entire uboot?
<KotCzarny> are you working on uboot or kernel?
<KotCzarny> both have their own dts
<KotCzarny> in case of uboot it's compiled in
<lwh`> Really?!
<KotCzarny> in case of kernel it's loaded during uboot boot
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<lwh`> oh, yes, you're right. Forgot about that.
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<BenG83_> is anyone at the conference right now?
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<montjoie> not myself but some coworker
<montjoie> you could see my work "the lavabox"
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<libv_> is anyone still using linux-sunxi.org for anything but the mainlining page?
<KotCzarny> yes
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<KotCzarny> boards info
<KotCzarny> remembering magic invocations too
<libv> everything but the mainlining page has atropheed.
<KotCzarny> it still has useful info
<KotCzarny> also ar100 is current
<libv> little of it is kept up to date or in sync with the upstream u-boot and kernel changes
<libv> so the whole thing might as well just not exist anymore
<BenG83_> I use the build/image creation guides
<KotCzarny> libc, i disagree
<libv> v.
<libv> so how come only one page is still being edited, and nothing else is?
<libv> how come we do not have a... c.h.i.p. page with useful info for instance
<KotCzarny> because there arent' chip users that edit it?
<BenG83_> I usually try to keep all the Pine(book)A/H(64) pages up to date
<libv> so none of the people editing the mainlining page use chip hardware?
<BenG83_> a lot of those board communities have their own wikis
<libv> BenG83_: how long term useful is that?
<BenG83_> and fewer of their users are dev's that are coming to the linux-sunxi wiki
<libv> also, have you tried bringing up a rpi 3 on mainline recently?
<BenG83_> I lost interest in anything RPi a long time ago :)
<libv> it took me ages and i had to combine snippets of info from multiple dated blog entries to get there
<libv> which is where linux-sunxi is lightyears ahead still
<libv> but that can only be such if it is maintained
<BenG83_> I update board pages if I have the hadrdware and see something is outdated usually
<libv> i haven't done sunxi stuff for many many years now
<libv> but i am still paying for the hetzner server
<libv> i just looked over recent changes
<tkaiser> I even add board pages for every device I come accross
<libv> and i am left wondering why i am still bothering
<libv> as the content is not being kept in sync with a) newer hw, for a value of newer b) upstream changes
<libv> i took over payment to protect the huge amount of time i invested in that wiki, making it device centric and updating its structure accordingly
<libv> but i am more and more convinced that it is not worth protecting
<JohnDoe_71Rus> i read features progress table
<KotCzarny> libv, arent they soc centric? with device adding onto it
<KotCzarny> and work is primarily done on socs
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<libv> KotCzarny: interesting viewpoint
<KotCzarny> then once socs features work it's added into dts of particular devices
<montjoie> libv: what is the bandwith usage of linux-sunxi.org ?
<libv> which explains the athrophee i just mentioned
<KotCzarny> so it might be mainline/dt result of the change
<libv> montjoie: no idea
<tkaiser> We have super detailed device pages as well: http://linux-sunxi.org/Orange_Pi_Zero
<libv> not much
<libv> KotCzarny: the idea behind being device centric is that you google for linux + some device info, and you hit the page meant for your device
<KotCzarny> yes, but from linux/mainline point of view devices are just lego blocks (soc drivers)
<libv> pointing you to uboot config, dtb name (or fex or whatever), and then to how to build uboot and kernel for them
<montjoie> libv: I still use wiki for uboot and some board info (where are uart?)
<libv> but it seems that we are doing development boards only these days
<libv> which then also means that people have some clue as to which SoC is being used
<KotCzarny> to add devices you would need users that have them
<libv> linux-sunxi was also meant to protect against short-lived $shitpi sellers with their desire to create their own "communities" each and every time
<KotCzarny> and it's that most devs contribute, users not that much
<tkaiser> libv: This works, just CHIP is not the best example. See e.g. http://linux-sunxi.org/Sunvell_R69#Tips.2C_Tricks.2C_Caveats
<pmpp> can't even find a "CHIP" page on elinux site
<KotCzarny> libv, $hit pi effect is specific because they made sure they have monopoly on those particular socs
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<libv> anyway... back to banging my head against the cargoculted wiki that is confluence.
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<elros_> I built image using a33 lichee sdk. Is there any way to boot it from sdcard? I would like to not break existing android for now
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<adj_> libv, even now that rockchip have, in my opinion, better SOC options for mainline, linux-sunxi wiki and community are much better than anything else in the ARM world
<adj_> I suppose that the better supported SOC'S by rockchip is because the chromebook effect
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<mirko> is it normal that - when using `stress -m X` - the device doesn't react anymore at all? Not even via serial. When trying cancel stres svia CTRL+c it takes almost a minute until stress got killed and everythign is back to normal
<mirko> i'm not stressing the cpu, just memory - stressing all 4 cores is fine, it's just mem
<mirko> taling about H3 here
<KotCzarny> running off the sdcard ?
<KotCzarny> then yes
<KotCzarny> check swap usage
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<mirko> eeks, forgot about Debian created a swap partition..
<mirko> thanks, makes sense
<KotCzarny> disable swap and try again
<DonkeyHotei> enable zram swap
<KotCzarny> having mmc trigger bound to led helps
<mirko> yes, without swap everything seems fine
<KotCzarny> erm, zram would bring it further down to its knees in low mem usage
<mirko> the ram chips stay surprisingly cold
<KotCzarny> clock them higher?
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<mirko> stress always gets killed by OOM - i figured that's because malloc() (almost) never fails and turned off overcommitment. Then stress doesn#t even start -.-
<mirko> KotCzarny: will try
<KotCzarny> if you are using armbian, they are using safe values
<KotCzarny> some boards are better than others tho
<mirko> using vanilla debian testing
<mirko> i'm aware of the board issues (having an opi zero and an opi lite)
<mirko> still, what's the best way to stress memory?
<KotCzarny> limamemtester
<DonkeyHotei> recompile the linux kernel in a loop
<KotCzarny> no, seriously, limamemtester
<KotCzarny> it uses gpu to drive it hard
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<KotCzarny> requires monitor to visually assert results though
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<mirko> KotCzarny: do i need the proprietary blobs?
<KotCzarny> it's fel loadable
<KotCzarny> no need for os
<KotCzarny> ready for testing
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<mirko> ruby? eeks
<mirko> ah, maybe just for the charts
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<mirko> am i getting it correctly, that with the voltage regulator on the opi lite/one, i can't get over 1008000Hz?
<mirko> (CPU)
<KotCzarny> yes
<mirko> i'm confused: the files within the archives listed on https://github.com/ssvb/lima-memtester/releases/tag/20151207-orange-pi-pc-fel-test all have 'pc' in their file name, while at least some testing results seem to have used "one"-specific images
<mirko> which one am i supposed to use and - if "one"-ones - where can i find them?
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<KotCzarny> use the one that works?
<mirko> i just wanted to make sure to create comparable results
<mirko> for the table on the wiki page
<KotCzarny> i thought you wanted to stress test memory
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<mirko> yes, and i figured it might make sense to add my obersavtions/results to the wiki table - which asks for more results
<mirko> which i think only makes sense when using the same images - and as there seem to be "one/lite"- and "pc"-specific ones, i thought i should use the "right" one
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<ssvb> mirko: this is just convenience package for Orange Pi PC, somebody may rebuild it for Orange Pi One too
<ssvb> it bundles the lima-memtester tool with a suitable U-Boot & kernel
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<ssvb> if you have any bootable image with a sunxi-3.4 legacy kernel for your board, then you can try to run lima-memtester on it directly
<mirko> ack, thanks
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<mirko> i was just confused by the wiki table mentioning images they used having "one" instead of "pc" in their filenames
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<KotCzarny> ssvb, maybe limamemtester should have own page?
<ssvb> KotCzarny: what kind of page? do you mean a linux-sunxi wiki page?
<KotCzarny> yes
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<KotCzarny> there is a lot of h3 devices, and it doesnt make much sense to duplicate same paragraphs
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<ssvb> why not?
<KotCzarny> because only results tables would differ
<ssvb> only Orange Pi PC has been ever properly tested, the reliability of other boards was very much hit and miss
<KotCzarny> i think people done it on other oranges too
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<ssvb> do we have a place to host a large number of lima-mentester fel-bootable binaries for various boards?
<KotCzarny> what about dl.linux-sunxi.org ?
<KotCzarny> or github?
<ssvb> isn't it so that the linux-sunxi server runs out of free space periodically?
<KotCzarny> since it's already on gh, just add binaries subdir?
<ssvb> just push binaries to a git repository?
<KotCzarny> sure
<ssvb> I think github did not like that
<ssvb> I just searched a bit and found this link - https://help.github.com/articles/distributing-large-binaries/
<KotCzarny> define 'large'
<KotCzarny> Releases allow you to include binary files, such as compiled programs. For more information, visit "Creating releases."
<KotCzarny> they are perfectly fine with binaries
<KotCzarny> and i dont suspect l-m-t would be near around 2GB per release
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<ssvb> ok, I may try to create a separate repository for binaries, autobuild a ton of them and push to github
<KotCzarny> or make them universal and fel-time customizable/selectable ?
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<KotCzarny> you can probably load proper fex via fel too
<ssvb> fex is loaded via fel already
<KotCzarny> fel boot is very flexioble
<KotCzarny> *flexible
<KotCzarny> maybe take a look at fel-installer from h3droid?
<KotCzarny> we already support multiple boards via single installer/loader
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<KotCzarny> and it has gui (python i think)
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<mirko> i know 4K is not supported, but the system doesn't even start when i have a 4k screen connected
<mirko> [ 7.932798] sun4i-drm display-engine: [drm:drm_fb_cma_fbdev_init_with_funcs] *ERROR* Failed to set fbdev configuration.
<mirko> [ 7.944609] sun4i-drm display-engine: Couldn't create our framebuffer
<mirko> and that's it
<KotCzarny> maybe you need bigger cma?
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<mirko> set to 64M currently - not enough?
<KotCzarny> who knows, try increasing it
<mirko> ;)
<KotCzarny> if it's the case, then default cma size in kernel needs changing
<KotCzarny> ie. bug those mainlining folks on mailing list
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<ssvb> KotCzarny: just compiling a lot of binaries is simple and much more reliable
<mirko> KotCzarny: ack
<KotCzarny> ssvb, whatever works for you, though i hate duplicating work
<ssvb> KotCzarny: duplicating work?
<KotCzarny> compiling lot of binaries
<ssvb> it's fully automated, you can see a script at the bottom of https://github.com/ssvb/lima-memtester/releases/tag/20151207-orange-pi-pc-fel-test
<KotCzarny> don't mind me, i have one installer for all h3 devices, saves time, space and bandwidth
<ssvb> so if we build a bunch of binaries, upload them somewhere and then have a link to the right binary from the board page at the linux-sunxi wiki, then it will work
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<ssvb> this is more reliable compared to having a link to the same binary from every board page PLUS a requirement for the user to select the right board type when running it
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<ssvb> but the biggest problem is finding volunteers to run these tests, because nobody gives rat about reliability unless their board fails in a very obvious way
<mirko> ssvb: can't we just buy those boards and do them ourselves?
<mirko> and yes, by "us", i include myself and wouldn't mind spending 100$ on a AliExpress order
<KotCzarny> mirko: it's for statistics
<KotCzarny> you would need lots of them
<KotCzarny> best would be coercing vendors to do that
<mirko> my stats and lots you mean: lot's of the very same kind of board?
<pmpp> i'm willing to integrate memtest to fel-installer if anyone need ( not a GUI but TUI vt100 and indeed is python (with msys2 on windows )
<ssvb> mirko: it would be beast if board vendors actually did all these reliability tests themselves and contributed the right DRAM config to U-Boot for their board
<pmpp> btw fel installer help people to launch zadig on windows
<KotCzarny> pmpp, if you add limamemtester loading it would allow lots of windoze people to contribute results too
<pmpp> KotCzarny: it could for now nobody failed to setup zadig so it is promising
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<ssvb> mirko: the biggest problem with board vendors is that they tend to overclock their hardware
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<ssvb> because if your board clocks DRAM at 432MHz while your competitor's board clocks DRAM at 408MHz, then you kinda have more attractive specs on paper
<pmpp> haha that reminds me off people giving extra money to overclock pentium 166 200 mmx
<tkaiser> ssvb: The problem is those board vendors who do these tests use a patched u-boot
<mirko> i see
<tkaiser> FriendlyELEC defines 432 MHz being a good value for some of their boards, uses this value, write 672 somewhere else and this gets picked up by mainline u-boot later
<tkaiser> So FriendlyELEC's own OS images run stable but boards relying on upstream projects not
<mirko> so 128M instead of 64M let's H3 boot with a 4k screen attached via HDMI
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<ssvb> tkaiser: yes, board maintainers in the mainline U-Boot are generally doing a very bad job
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<ssvb> normally it would be best if board vendors maintained configs for their hardware in the mainline U-Boot
<tkaiser> But I really don't understand why we constantly end up with those stupid 672 MHz DRAM clockspeeds since the tests showed that we can't rely on such numbers
<ssvb> what we have now is that some random dude just submits a poorly tested config to the mainline U-Boot, and sometimes even mentions that he did not even test it on real hardware
<ssvb> nevertheless such patches are accepted because "it is always possible to fix it later" or something like this
<ssvb> "if people complain"
<KotCzarny> 'allwinner hardware stresstesting task' ? ;)
<KotCzarny> 'allwinner hardware stresstesting taskforce'
<tkaiser> Nope, sane defaults
<tkaiser> Patch comes in and talks about 672 MHz --> edit it to 624 MHz
<tkaiser> Those who want to overclock DRAM then have to buy 1000 boards, test them and provide results
<KotCzarny> tkaiser, that assumes hardware is easily identifiable
<KotCzarny> sunvel r69 has 3 (THREE) revisions with different boards under same name
<tkaiser> I don't give a sh*t about those shitty TV boxes, talking about dev boards
<KotCzarny> there are different revisions for dev boards too
<tkaiser> For TV boxes the default should be 408 MHz, for all dual channel DRAM configs with H3 624 MHz
<KotCzarny> using different rams etc
<KotCzarny> but same model name
<tkaiser> Exactly. So *SANE* defaults are needed
<tkaiser> Not accepting those overly optimistic crap people think they read from a fex file
<ssvb> tkaiser: IIRC, there is a new Cubietruck revision with different DRAM chips and these boards were pretty unreliable
<tkaiser> Allwinner's BSP does *NOT* use the DRAM values in fex values any more BTW. See H5 BSP: http://linux-sunxi.org/Xunlong_Orange_Pi_Zero_Plus#DRAM
<ssvb> based on an old discussion thread in the armbian forum
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<ssvb> and Cubietruck is a very interesting case because the old revision with old DRAM chips was borderline reliable at just 432MHz DRAM clock speed
<KotCzarny> best would be autotuning
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<ssvb> with a different DRAM config this old Cubietruck board could pass tests at 600MHz - https://lists.denx.de/pipermail/u-boot/2014-July/183981.html
<ssvb> but of course nobody was interested in testing anything or improving the DRAM config on it
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<ssvb> borderline reliable 432MHz setup was perfectly fine for the U-Boot Cubietruck maintainer(s)
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<ssvb> KotCzarny: autotuning?
<KotCzarny> ssvb,yeah, but it might be distro specific
<KotCzarny> s/distro/os/
<ssvb> it's not OS specific, the hardware itself just needs to be configured properly
<KotCzarny> i meant the integrating testing app and storing result somewhere, maybe sid?
<tkaiser> KotCzarny: Nobody will test anyway...
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<ssvb> tkaiser: I see only one possible solution: assume that every board is poorly configured (unless proven otherwise) and add a warning banner at its linux-sunxi wiki page
<ssvb> then remove these banners one at a time if we make some progress
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<ssvb> then the users will maybe start asking questions and contributing something
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<tkaiser> ssvb: Other alternative: give up on Allwinner boards since too much hassles (my approach soon)
<KotCzarny> oh, lol, 384?
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<tkaiser> KotCzarny: Tired of dealing with the same stability issues again and again... and since ssvb's approach to get better DRAM initialization was fruitless simply trash performance a little bit further
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<tkaiser> On the other hand with some boards a nice DRAM speed boost is there too, eg. with NanoPi M1.
<mirko> why the neo plus 2 goes up?
<KotCzarny> if it means stable board.. sure
<tkaiser> mirko: NanoPi NEO DRAM clock speeds in upstream u-boot are all just fantasy values. No idea why they are as they are
<tkaiser> In Armbian we use what the device vendor (FriendlyELEC) used after testing
<ssvb> tkaiser: yes, I don't care about allwinner hardware anymore exactly because it is not a productive use of my time
<mirko> i was surprised of the success of the bootlin kickstarter campaign - wouldn't have thought it would be backed
<KotCzarny> mirko: in a big part it's thanks to board vendors
<KotCzarny> few notable ones contributed
<mirko> don't get me wrong - highly appreciated. but i didn't expect end users to pledge, and the vendors I'd have assumed, would think similar about allwinner as you do
<ssvb> tkaiser: as mentioned in https://lists.denx.de/pipermail/u-boot/2014-July/183981.html back in 2014 I spent 3 months on basically reverse engineering the sun4i DRAM controller behavior and ensuring that we can use it reliably
jelly is now known as MooServ`
MooServ` is now known as jelly
<ssvb> tkaiser: and now 4 years later the sunxi board maintainers are still doing a sloppy job
<mirko> resellers would need to pressure the vendors
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<ssvb> mirko: the kickstarter campaign will be a success if we get some usable results from it
<ssvb> it's actually a very interesting project because now it involves money
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<ssvb> and money implies at least some accountability
<mirko> ssvb: does money change much here? it might hurt the image of bootlin if they don't deliver, that's quite some motivation i guess.. on the other hand: who in 2018 really expects a crowdfunding campaign being successful?
<mirko> i don't (and i pledged)
<mirko> i think the only accountability comes with the association to bootlin
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<adj_> mirko, all crowdfunding campaigns I funded success, most of them hardware campaigns, and the wort with one or two months delay
<adj_> best advice is to fund only people you trust
<adj_> if you do that, few will fail
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<mirko> adj_: hm, maybe i should switch to trusting the right people ;)
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<adj_> :)
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<adj_> maybe you are too nice
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<adj_> many times the projects are over ambitious for the people and resources they have
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<mirko> how come btw. the H3 on the nano-pi can be clocked so much higher than the H3 on the OPi Zero? PCB surface (as in: mm²) seems to be about the same(?)
<KotCzarny> voltage of soc
<KotCzarny> voltage of cpu i mean
<mirko> but doesn't the zero also have a regulator?
<KotCzarny> as for dram, its about different type of ram
<mirko> afaik it is only safe to operate at around 6xx MHz
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<tkaiser> mirko: Are you confusing DRAM clockspeeds with CPU?
<tkaiser> Wrt DRAM clockspeeds: same board, different SoC. E.g. Orange Pi Zero Plus 2. Exists with H3 and with H5 SoC.
<KotCzarny> ah, right, that too
<tkaiser> If a H3 is on the PCB the DRAM can be clocked at high clockspeeds but consumption and temperatures rise a lot (that's why Armbian is using 408 MHz)
<tkaiser> But if there's a H5 then the same DRAM module can be clocked with 624 MHz. I have not the slightest idea why
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<tkaiser> But reduced DRAM clockspeeds on single channel DRAM H3 boards is mostly due to consumption savings and lower temperatures
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<tkaiser> For whatever reasons situation with H5 is different even on the same PCB with same DRAM module
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<mirko> KotCzarny: i was talking about H2+ (OPi zero) which is almost a H3 (as far as i understood)
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<tkaiser> OPi Zero can clock up to 1.2GHz since DVFS implemented 1.1V and 1.3V
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* Putti is trying video engine on h2+
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