<whitequark>
so... out of 1.0mm of microsd thickness, dies occupy 0.8mm
<devyn>
okay
<devyn>
what about accounting for loss of efficiency
<whitequark>
hm?
<devyn>
well like I'm sure it's not just a ratio of the volume haha
<devyn>
there's got to be some kind of diminishing return
<devyn>
controller overhead, or something
<whitequark>
well... there's several things
<whitequark>
first, yield
<whitequark>
the more complex a thing you want to make, the more disastrous a single error will be
<whitequark>
thankfully it's easier with flash memories, since they're naturally designed to cope with most errors
<whitequark>
but there's still a large class of defects that kills the whole device
<whitequark>
second, cells themselves
<whitequark>
basically flash can be SLC or MLC. MLC can be... 2, 4, maybe now even 8 levels
<devyn>
right
<whitequark>
er, no MLC-2
<whitequark>
MLC-4 stores 2 bits per cell
<whitequark>
actually there's even MLC-16, with 4 bits per cell
<whitequark>
the downside is that the data is much more easily corrupted with MLC, *and* these cells are, for some reason, more easily permanently damaged
<whitequark>
so you have to dedicate more space to ECC codes
<devyn>
there are plenty of commercial SSDs with 3-bit cells
<devyn>
right now
<whitequark>
sure
<whitequark>
so?
<devyn>
I didn't have a point
<devyn>
just adding
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<whitequark>
so... third is cost
<whitequark>
obviously.
<whitequark>
fourth is node limitations
<whitequark>
sooner or later, shrinking cells even more will be impossible
<devyn>
okay but let's assume we're just sticking with exactly the same technology
<devyn>
that's in the 128 GB microSD
<whitequark>
ok
<whitequark>
then we can make 128GB microSDs
<devyn>
so, I think that scaling that up to say 512 GB regular form factor SDs is problematic
<devyn>
for some reason
<devyn>
but
<devyn>
I'm not sure why
<whitequark>
it's not
<devyn>
okay
<devyn>
lol
<whitequark>
it's simply too expensive
<devyn>
alright
<whitequark>
I mean
<whitequark>
it's $120 or what. so... $500 for an SD card?
<devyn>
well that and
<devyn>
the demand for a 128 GB microSD
<devyn>
is probably much greater
<devyn>
even if still not all that great
<whitequark>
actually, no, it's $230
<whitequark>
microsd one
<whitequark>
so it's a near $1000 sd card
<devyn>
I can't imagine the demand for a $1000 512 GB SD card would be very great
<whitequark>
exactly
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<purr>
<Nuck> whitequark: I do enjoy nooses.
<glowcoil>
devyn: no yeah, they've been allowed to for *quite* some time, I don't know how many years
<glowcoil>
devyn: but yeah it's probably getting more likely to see them
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<purr>
<Nuck> I knew you looked famished for dick.
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that was separate. I was just saying perfect timing, 'cuz I had just come in and tried to tab-complete you a couple minutes ago. :P
<alexgordon>
something tells me I'm not going to agree with this
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“(Though I’ll admit that I cannot fathom voluntarily coding in Visual Basic).”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's a great goddamn article, and so far agrees with *everything* I believe about the inequalities in our field.
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: this is great
<glowcoil>
culural capital is a great phrase too
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
OH NOES U SAID “HER” INSTEAD OF “XER”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
—usual feminist
<glowcoil>
s distinct from the other capitals
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“Let's talk about values borne out in french-philosophy-originated social theory, and how they apply to our field”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
—this dude/lady
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I AM
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
A FAN
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(‘feminist’ with reference to transhipsters was intentional, for future reference.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“But if brogrammer culture opposes macho culture, it does not follow that brogrammer culture is automatically welcoming to other excluded groups, such as women.”
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: though i feel that using "xer" is one person's idea of giving a small push in the state of the field as described by that theory
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
using “xer” combatively is nothing less, and (more importantly) nothing more, than spreading discontent as a meme.
<glowcoil>
so while I agree that being combative is not nearly as helpful or valuable
<glowcoil>
I would say that making fun of it isn't either
<glowcoil>
:p
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
The majority of people to whom that may refer are (both) judged and made actively unequal in ways *far* more affecting to their daily lives than the use of a particular pronoun; the undefined ‘you,’ an outsider to that group, do *nothing* directly for them by aggressively using that pronoun in everyday verbiage more than generating awareness via
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
annoyance.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
And that old adage about there being no bad publicity? Not fucking true, not even a lick.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
What ‘you're’ goddamned doing, is associating the emotional response of *annoyance*, in everybody's minds, with the people mentioned above.
<glowcoil>
though truer than you'd think when you consider the overton window
<glowcoil>
pronouns are a symptom, not a cause, i entirely agree
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Yes. Awareness is positive, awareness is great. But generating awareness with anything *less* than the utmost tiptoey care (newfavouriteword) is an excellent way to associate the negative emotions you generate in the uninitiate with the thing you're introducing them to.
<glowcoil>
and being aggressive about it is unlikely to shift the opinions of those you are being aggressive against
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Yes
<glowcoil>
and also I very, very, very strongly disagree wtih advocating tiptoey care
<glowcoil>
there is need for, and tooonsss of room for, tiptoey care
<glowcoil>
but
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
And attacking the symptom (unhelpful, thus neutral, basically what I'm saying), in a way that generates negative emotions, negative ‘press’ (damaging, thus negative),
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
adds up to a net negative.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
BUT.
<glowcoil>
for every mlk you need a malcolm x and a nelson mandela
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
DOING SO GENERATES ATTENTION.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
AND THAT'S WHAT DRIVES ME NUTS.
<glowcoil>
and also, sure you generate annoyance in those who are not also in the oppressed group
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
okay. Done. Room's an echo chamber. Without anybody actually transgender/agender/Xgender in here, *or* any militant feminists listening, I'm doing nothing but preaching to the choir.
<glowcoil>
all right
* glowcoil
shakes ELLIOTTCABLE's hand
* ELLIOTTCABLE
shakes back
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Yeah.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not tiptoey care in *all* angles.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Huge difference that you missed, here.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Malcom X, Nelson Mandela? They were black.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Very start of my discussion, although I didn't state it explicitly (my own failing), it was implied I was discussing *feminists*, not the transgender folk.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
i.e. people, themselves cisgender, aggressively addressing unknowns and randoms as ‘xer’ or similar.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
If you're black, you get a morally clean slate to do *whatever* you feel is necessary to reduce the oppression you receive and perceive, IMO.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
if you're non-cis, the same.
* glowcoil
shrugs
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<glowcoil>
i feel like one of the biggest obstacles to feminism is the lack of belief that it's a problem
<glowcoil>
because the attitudes are so invisible if you're not looking for them
<glowcoil>
so i can't fully endorse that position
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: for sure
<alexgordon>
<+glowcoil> i feel like one of the biggest obstacles to feminism is the lack of belief that it's a problem
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: are you agreeing or poking fun at my grammar mistake? because I just realized i made one :p
<glowcoil>
that sort of reverses its meaning
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I'm agreeing
<alexgordon>
I don't believe that much of feminism is a problem
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Interesting related point, to take it a bit off the touchy topic:
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: ... what i meant is that sexism is a problem
<alexgordon>
*I don't believe that most of the problems feminists go on about are ACTUALLY problems
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“Lack of critical awareness about the sea in which one swims is a very difficult problem to overcome and requires dropping down defenses to listen, as a first step.”
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I'll read
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yeah i like that a *lot*
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
or, to rephrase, ‘Shut up and be open-minded.’
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I don't understand
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: ok cool
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I"m not saying women should have to wear high heels. I don't even LIKE high heels
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: yes but the point is that no one is explicitly arguing for them!
<alexgordon>
women wear high heels themselves FOR themselves and other women
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
So much of this would be so much easier if the overrepresented would shut-up-and-be-open-minded
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: a lot of conscious behaviors result, in indirect ways, from unconscious things like this
<alexgordon>
so what?
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: you can't just say, "i don't think women should have to wear heels", and then feel done
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“women wear high heels themselves FOR themselves and other women”
<glowcoil>
that your contriubtion is finished
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
also a hugely excellent point
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I'm not actually saying that
<glowcoil>
i'm not saying that women wear heels for men
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I'm saying, I as a man, do not find high heels attractive and I wish women would NOT wear them
<alexgordon>
it's a stronger position
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whether or not a woman needs to wear high-heels (or other gendered clothing) in the workplace *isn't men's business*
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
any more than me wearing a badass JavaScript shirt is to get girls' attention, by looking geeky-smart-rich-employed-important or some shit, when I go out to get drinks
<alexgordon>
* I find them to be ugly
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's to empathize with, attract, and involve myself with *my peer group*
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ditto heels/gendered-clothing for women. nothing to do with the men.
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: ok so there, your position is not even relevant to whether or not you're part of the problem or solution or whether it's a problem
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: if women continue to wear them then it's an expression of their own free will, and it's not for me to interferr
<alexgordon>
interferr?
<glowcoil>
and also heels are not the only signifier being discussed
<alexgordon>
lol
<purr>
lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
sorry, I'll shaddup
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: yes it's free will, that doesn't mean it doesn't subtly influence their treatment
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm missing something here, I think.
<glowcoil>
"it's your free will to wear baggy pants to a job interview"
<glowcoil>
that means fuck all
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I think I agree with alexgordon here, and that scares me. Rephrase, glowcoil?
<glowcoil>
even if you, as an interviewer, explicitly say to yourself "i don't care how this person is dressed" it will *still* influence your image of them
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yes, of course
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I don't get it. nobody is forcing them to wear high heels to job interviews and nobody is saying that if you don't wear high heels you won't get the job
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that's the point, no?
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: you can dress smartly without wearing high heels
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: alexgordon is trying to say that he doesn't care whether women wear heels, and no one is forcing them to, so what's the problem?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
heels *will* make her be perceived as feminine, regardless of whether she wears them to influence other women or not. I thought that was obvious.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ditto my comparison with techie tees.
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I'm saying I don't care, and I don't even _like_ them
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I may wear an HTML5 tee to call out to other geeks, when I go out … but I also actively make that choice while knowing that'll cause me to be perceived as ‘geeky’ in public.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ditto heels. so what's the point?
<glowcoil>
the point is that
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: but ok, I'll bite. I do think that women should dress femininely
<glowcoil>
both men's and women's appearances are judged according to particular rules
<glowcoil>
that afford them different sets of opportunities
<alexgordon>
my personal view is that men and women are difference, and we should embrace those differences, not try to hide them away
<alexgordon>
*different
<glowcoil>
and those sets of rules differ extremely
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: nope.
<glowcoil>
and they make it *harder* for women to have a successful career
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
point is *you don't get a say*. That's not your call.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Why *should* it be your call?
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: my call?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whether they dress ‘femininely’ or not.
<alexgordon>
I'm not telling women how to dress lol, I'm saying that that's my ideal. One is an interaction with the world, the other is a configuration inside my head
<purr>
lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Entire point here (well. IMO. perhaps I'm missing it.) is that *they know* what dressing femininely does to their reception, just as I know what wearing a geeky tee will do for mine. They are autonomous adults and can make that decision. Why are we discussing this?
<alexgordon>
women are free to disagree with me and dress however they want, I never said anything to the contrary
<alexgordon>
did we lose glowcoil ?
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: what I'm arguing is a *problem* here, is that whether or not *you* specifically are forcing women to dress a certain way or not, women experience undeniable, uncontrollable consquences based on different ways that they dress
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: so do men
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: and if you read that article about the woman's experience at a con
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: yes, men do too, but those consequences afford men an easy path to looking "professional" or whatever
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: among many, many other differences
<alexgordon>
do you think that if obama rolled up to G20 in a hawaiian shirt, he'd be taken seriously?
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: basically, women are in a lose-lose situation in a lot of ways becasue of the rules
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: whereas men often have a right answer to the most successful way to dress
<glowcoil>
like, obama puts on a suit
<glowcoil>
or something
<alexgordon>
not really, I actually despise suits
<alexgordon>
especially ties
<glowcoil>
that's *entirely* irrelevant
<alexgordon>
ties are fucking weird
<glowcoil>
like, very, very irrelevant
<alexgordon>
it's entirely relevant. the world expects me to wear a suit in some formal situations, more than it expects women to wear high heels
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: but see, if you have a high stakes job interview (depending on the place of course), you slap on a suit, for the advantage it gives you
<yorick>
alexgordon: but they make you look all like you know what you're doing
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: whereas, a woman has all these pitfalls
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: she has a low-cut dress, she looks slutty
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I'm forced to wear the suit because of the disadvantage of not doing so
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: she has a hihg-cut dress, she looks like a prude
<joelteon>
it must be an unending, unbearable torturous nightmare to be a woman
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: she has a pantsuit, she looks like a bitchy feminist
<alexgordon>
joelteon: xD
<yorick>
glowcoil: you could have a bow tie or a normal tie
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: she has too ornate of a dress, she looks perhaps ridiculous
<joelteon>
i'm surprised they're all still alive
<glowcoil>
yorick: right, did you read the article i linked
<glowcoil>
yorick: men have choices too but there is a default, "unmarked" choice for men
<yorick>
glowcoil: okay
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: yeah, clothes are hard. but there are answers to these questions
<alexgordon>
that's just the way the world works. if you want to be taken more seriously, you have to dress appropriately
<glowcoil>
like you could dye your hair with a little streak of blue if you are a man
<glowcoil>
and it will affect the perception of you
<glowcoil>
but there is a default choice for the role of "successful professional man"
<glowcoil>
whereas for women, *every* *single* *choice* is fraught with tradeoffs
<glowcoil>
ok I really need to get ready for class
<joelteon>
let's have a moment of silence for women
<joelteon>
doomed from the beginning
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: k. o7
<yorick>
but women have variety thanks to that!
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: o7
<yorick>
the only difference between a funeral and job interview is one of the buttons on the suit :)
<joelteon>
it'd be the color
* alexgordon
will NEVER wear a suit and tie
<glowcoil>
yorick: right, that is something, but I don't think it's even close to being the biggest factor
<glowcoil>
would you rather:
<glowcoil>
- have access to variety
<glowcoil>
- have access to what's above the glass ceiling
<alexgordon>
I made myself a promise: if I ever get to a point in life where I have to wear a suit and tie, I will jump off the nearest bridge
<yorick>
glowcoil: you could express yourself even in formal situations
<yorick>
alexgordon: never go to college
<alexgordon>
because then I'll know that my life is well and truly fucked
<yorick>
alexgordon: never graduate highschool
<glowcoil>
yorick: whoo, i can express myself, i feel great, and also get 70% of men's pay for the same work
<glowcoil>
sorry i really need to go
<alexgordon>
yorick: people wear suit and tie to graduate highschool in the US?
<alexgordon>
lol
<purr>
lol
<glowcoil>
o7 all, let's talk later
<yorick>
alexgordon: they do in the Netherlands
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: yes to graduation
<joelteon>
yeah that's always confusing
<joelteon>
I don't get why companies don't hire all women since they can save a SHIT TON of money on it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
shit, missed a lot
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-clouds
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: is stuck up in the clouds; hilight 'em if you want 'em.
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: or more often graduation requires a really specific weird way to dress, and so they provide you a robe you rent that you put on top of your normal clothes or w/e
<glowcoil>
:p
<joelteon>
seems really confusing
<yorick>
joelteon: because they get pregnant and disappear for years
<joelteon>
that's what I'd do if I was in management
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: like academic gowns?
<alexgordon>
academic gowns are ok. It's suits and ties I have a problem with
<glowcoil>
right those
<joelteon>
yorick: still, that's worth 30% off
<glowcoil>
3:10:33 <+joelteon> I don't get why companies don't hire all women since they can save a SHIT TON of money on it
<joelteon>
and some of them don't
<glowcoil>
lolol
<alexgordon>
ahahah
<alexgordon>
it's true though
<glowcoil>
not at all
<joelteon>
no it is
<alexgordon>
women don't negotiate, that's what people always say
<glowcoil>
there are the same reasons for the gender gap as for why less women are hired in total
<joelteon>
they could save 30% money
<joelteon>
ok well just hire women
<glowcoil>
becasue women are not perceived as deserving of (being employed | higher pay)
<joelteon>
there must be a god, because he didn't make me a woman
<glowcoil>
so, companies don't hire them, or pay them higher
<glowcoil>
it's a funny joke but but obscures the truth
<glowcoil>
uggggggggh bye
<yorickpeterse>
suit and ties in graduate school?
<yorickpeterse>
the fuck
<joelteon>
glowcoil, are you leaving?
<yorickpeterse>
do kids at that age even know how to wear suits?
<yorick>
yorickpeterse: at 18?
<yorickpeterse>
Yes
<alexgordon>
joelteon: orgasm
<joelteon>
holy fuuuck
<yorick>
yorickpeterse: there are various galas where you have to wear suits in schools
<joelteon>
does he ever stop bitching about gender inequalities
<joelteon>
jesus christ
<yorick>
yorickpeterse: starting at like 14 or something
<yorickpeterse>
Find me somebody < 20 that knows how to wear a suit
<yorickpeterse>
and has one that actually fits
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: rich kids
<yorick>
yorickpeterse: it doesn't need to actually fit, but I know that
<yorick>
yorickpeterse: it was mandatory in university for some courses as well
<yorickpeterse>
yorick: thou shall not wear a suit if it doesn't fit
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: what is there to wearing a suit. you just put it on...
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: it's not a mental exercise
<yorick>
alexgordon: ever tried to tie a tie without a guy on youtube doing it with you :D
<yorickpeterse>
it looks extremely silly if you have a wrinkled suit because the shoulders don't fit
<yorick>
it fits *okay*
<alexgordon>
yorick: nope because I refuse to wear suits
<yorick>
people are not like "dude your suit doesn't fit"
<yorickpeterse>
I don't like them, but at least I have one that fits
<yorick>
alexgordon: well have a good life then
<yorickpeterse>
yorick: they are
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yorickpeterse: Moneyed family. Means I grew up knowing how to dress.
<yorickpeterse>
you'll be silently condemned
<yorickpeterse>
ELLIOTTCABLE: gold digger
<yorick>
yorickpeterse: well I think it fits okay-ish
<alexgordon>
I've been transported to this world where everybody thinks suits make you look important, but to me they're hilariously ridiculous
<alexgordon>
especially suits with phat ties
<yorick>
alexgordon: you're doing it wrong then
<alexgordon>
ties in general are just wacky
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Oh gods, slim ties
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Slim ties are just fucking disgusting.
<yorickpeterse>
try the shoes
<yorickpeterse>
they are fucking terrible
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Two-button suits, too. JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T BUTTON THE TOP BUTTON, DOESN'T MEAN IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE THERE
<yorick>
oh god the shoes, I have those too
<alexgordon>
it's this bit of fabric you tie around your neck and then hangs down pointing to your cock?
<alexgordon>
makes me lol
<purr>
lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and then there's those two-button suits that are cut to the assumption that you *still* won't button the top button, thus effectively making it a ONE-BUTTON SUIT
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
WHAT IS THIS INSANITY
<alexgordon>
personally, a nice shirt looks far better than a suit
<yorick>
alexgordon: nah, it started with the Romans as some sort of vocal cord warming thing
<alexgordon>
people in suits always look really uncomfortable :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but hey.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
some people use *mice*.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so you know what, anything goes.
<yorick>
ELLIOTTCABLE: what do you use then
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(But really, I'm using a mouse right now, for the first time in half a decade. How the *fuck* did trackballs not replace these pieces of shit!?)
<alexgordon>
I'm sorry, this is my fault for bringing up suits and my objection to them
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yorick: Back and forth 'tween trackball and trackpads.
<alexgordon>
we should probably talk about something else :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: do you use a mouse?
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yes
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I HAVE TO MOVE MY ENTIRE HAND
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
THIS IS BASICALLY TORTURE
<yorick>
ELLIOTTCABLE: the keyboard clit mouse things are especially terrible
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: oh you should see my mouse
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
IT'S BEEN FIVE MINUTES AND MY WRIST ALREADY HURTS
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: it is the CRAPPIEST mouse ever
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yorick: oh gods, those
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I bought it for like £3
<alexgordon>
if that
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I've got a couple really, *really* nice mice.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Which says a lot about me, because I've used any of them ever maybe once.
<yorickpeterse>
trackballs > everything
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I have a mighty mouse but the batteries have run out
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
And then a $40 trackball, because there IS NO SUCH THING as a goddamn nice trackball.
<alexgordon>
magic trackpads rock amirite?
<yorickpeterse>
ALL HAIL GLORIOUS TRACKBALL MASTER RACE
<joelteon>
i lost my phone
<joelteon>
be right back
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: trackballs are weird
<yorickpeterse>
They are amazing
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: personally, my holy grail is A) a wired Apple keyboard without a numpad, B) a trackpad/gesturepad in place of the numpad, and C) a trackball to the right of *that*
<yorickpeterse>
I'm not joking
<yorickpeterse>
They take a getting used to though
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
trackpads are terrible for tracking, but gestures are amazing.
<joelteon>
i'm back
<yorickpeterse>
For the first 2 weeks you're not going to get anything done
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I feel like some sort of hybrid gesture-pad-trackball thing, a Magic Mouse but with a ball, would be fucking amazing
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
what
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that's a lie
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
*vim* takes getting used to
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
people keep SAYING trackballs take getting used to
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but it literally took me all of five minutes ಠ_ಠ
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I was so pissed. It was so clearly better, and people had been making it sound scary. It absolutely wasn't.
<yorickpeterse>
you != everybody else
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not true
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I *am* everybody else.
<yorickpeterse>
k
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
All the solipsists? They're right.
<joelteon>
you're one of them
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Except instead of everybody else being themselves, everybody else is *one person*. Just moving really, really fast.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Best quote ever: “I'll have you know there's quite a few of us solipsists out there, and I'm sure the rest of them are just as incensed at your article as I.”
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: wireless apple keyboard plus magic trackpad is pretty much as good as it gets for me
<purr>
<IamTash> what's klined, hobbits?
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I need a non-trackpad.
<yorickpeterse>
heh, apple keyboards
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Trackpads rock, but … they're even worse than mice, as an actual *pointing device*.
<yorickpeterse>
keyboards for the poor
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yorickpeterse: lolno.
<purr>
lolno
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: so use the mouse less ;)
<alexgordon>
I don't really use the mouse that much
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Gods, the wired Apple Keyboard? Perfect angle, *spectacularly* delicious keys …
<yorickpeterse>
lol
<alexgordon>
mainly I use the mouse for _scrolling_ not for pointing
<yorickpeterse>
I'm going to casually walk out of this conversation
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: nooo
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I own an IBM model M clone, super-high-end, but I ended up switching back. Just, can't beat the Apple keyboards.
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: let's talk about femininsm
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
gave mine to, uhhhhh, I think nexxy?
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yah, apple nailed it
<yorickpeterse>
alexgordon: do you have any problems with that?
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: yes I have a problem with feminism!
<yorick>
yorickpeterse: oh god the apple fanbois
<alexgordon>
I can't spell it
<yorickpeterse>
alexgordon: ok, then I'll also walk away casually
<joelteon>
apple fanboys???
<joelteon>
why not apple fanGIRLS?
<yorick>
joelteon: different meaning
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“Lined with the best Radio Frequency (RF) blocking material in the industry, …”
<joelteon>
just another disgusting example of how women are uniquely disadvantaged in our society
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wait
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
there's a fabric material that passively blocks RF?
<yorick>
ELLIOTTCABLE: metal
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Wouldn't that have to be *energized*? What the fuck kind of material is that?
<yorick>
ELLIOTTCABLE: nah it can do faraday cage
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: I guess my problem with feminism is that the world they want to create is too far away from the world I want to create
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
That'd have to be fully enclosed, wouldn't it?
<alexgordon>
in other words I disagree with them
<yorick>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yeah, but you can decrease your material gaps and then the photons can't get through anyways just like regular light
<yorickpeterse>
alexgordon: so you're basically saying "I don't like women taking part with the rest of the world"
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: not at all!
<joelteon>
holy shit are we not done yet
<yorickpeterse>
Then what kind of world do you want to create, 1950s America?
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: ah see what you're doing there is assuming that without feminism, women would not take part in the rest of the world
<joelteon>
someone ping me when you're done
<yorickpeterse>
alexgordon: not really, just trying to see how far I can push people :>
* ELLIOTTCABLE
sighs
<alexgordon>
haha ELLIOTTCABLE just wanted to talk about mice
<yorickpeterse>
lets talk about Ebola
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: this is actually my main problem with feminism, that people don't see anything wrong with making bullshit arguments to support it
<alexgordon>
it's a bit like religion
<yorickpeterse>
define bullshit arguments in this case
<yorickpeterse>
There are some, but they are often not made by those that actually care
<yorickpeterse>
There's some term for it but I can't think of it atm
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
My mouse has ebola?
<yorickpeterse>
ELLIOTTCABLE: does have internal bleedings and a fever?
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: well like what you said, saying that there's only two choices: "women locked away in their houses" and "feminism"
<yorickpeterse>
alexgordon: when did I say that?
<alexgordon>
'so you're basically saying "I don't like women taking part with the rest of the world"'
<yorickpeterse>
That's a pretty far cry from "women locked away in their houses"
<yorickpeterse>
Either way, it wasn't even a serious reply
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
need to poop
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and then spend the day writing code. 'cuz it's been a while.
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: each would seem to imply the other
<joelteon>
careful about disagreeing with people...you sound like you might be a commie
<yorickpeterse>
Having said that, saying that "the world they want to create is too far away from the world I want to create" either means you're a gigantic neckbeard or you're watched too much Femen stuff
<alexgordon>
oh wait, I did see it in the daily mail (oh god)
<yorick>
yorickpeterse: it's funny because the head of Femen is just some guy getting all these women to be naked in public
<yorickpeterse>
I think at some point in time they had (or still have) banners of some lady holding up a pair of cut off nuts
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: to me, it seems that most feminists don't want _equality_ between men and women, they want a better life for women
<joelteon>
fucking commie
<yorickpeterse>
alexgordon: Perhaps for some, but certainly not in general
<alexgordon>
but there seems to be wide disagreement in what "a better life" actually is
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<yorickpeterse>
In general really all that it comes down to is literally "treat all genders equally", though I believe that in 2014 that should be common knowledge
<joelteon>
yeah
<joelteon>
that's why it's called "feminism"
<alexgordon>
for the record I don't think it's _bad_ that they want a better life for women
<alexgordon>
but the whole wanting "equality" is bullshit
<joelteon>
because the aim is equality
<alexgordon>
how many feminists work to reduce the number of male prisoners to achieve equality in that area? how many feminists are concerned that men live substantially less than women (I think this is mostly because testosterone is really bad for you though)
<joelteon>
yeah, well, we could work to reduce the number of male prisoners, but first we have to address the fact that women have to decide what to wear
<joelteon>
priorities!
<yorickpeterse>
alexgordon: that's a strawman
<joelteon>
i'm gonna go buy milk, be back soon
<yorickpeterse>
also how so is "equality" bullshit?
<yorickpeterse>
hold on, let me find the right term for this because from what I remember it's genuinely interesting reading material
<yorickpeterse>
honestly the whole wiki is pretty interesting to read, unless you have a massive ego
<yorickpeterse>
or if you're the type of person who goes "BOHOOOOO I DON'T LIKE IT WHEN PEOPLE TELL ME THE TRUTH"
<yorickpeterse>
Personally I think it's rather funny when men (sorry guys) get super butthurt about these topics
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: I don't really think so
<alexgordon>
I'm just pointing out that equality means making life better for both sexes
<alexgordon>
equality is literally: making life better for women + making life better for men
<yorickpeterse>
The part you're missing is that men, in general, already have it pretty darn fucking good compared to the other side
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: that is not my observation
<yorickpeterse>
As such equality, when it comes to feminism, to a certain extend means "Giving women equal rights to men"
<yorickpeterse>
alexgordon: then you are blind
* alexgordon
shrugs
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<alexgordon>
if you can't see that men have lots of problems too
<alexgordon>
then I don't know what to say
<alexgordon>
go down to some poverty stricken area and tell me that men have it just fine
<yorickpeterse>
What problems do they have when it comes to their gender?
<yorickpeterse>
what problems are related to people discriminating them on a large scale?
<yorickpeterse>
Or perhaps making sexual jokes about them on conferences?
<yorickpeterse>
Have you ever seen a conference talk given by a lady with a giant penis on a slide?
<alexgordon>
haha, the horror!
<alexgordon>
I wish people would make sexual jokes about me -_-
<yorickpeterse>
The argument about poverty is a strawman
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Still going. What have I done.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: HELP US
<yorickpeterse>
Either way, dismissing equality as bullshit because men are poor too is a classic case of "I really don't give a fuck"
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: I think you're too far gone to argue with. If you think that "equality = giving women equal rights to men" is true or even acceptable
<yorick>
anyone remember donglegate?
<yorickpeterse>
haha
<yorickpeterse>
alexgordon: if you think otherwise I hope we never meet
<yorickpeterse>
That's the last I'll have to say about it
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: I think that equality = giving everybody equal rights to everybody else
<alexgordon>
your definition of equality is unnecessarily sexist
<yorickpeterse>
Not...at all
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
My Internet is *really* sketchy right now.
<yorickpeterse>
I said that in the context of feminism it means men equal to women
<yorickpeterse>
In the context in general it means black dude == white woman == asian dude == etc
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: this is perhaps my biggest problem with feminists, I just find them to be sexist jerks
<yorickpeterse>
Then you are misinformed sadly
<alexgordon>
I wish I was
<yorickpeterse>
You are
<alexgordon>
lol we're getting nowhere
<purr>
lol
<yorickpeterse>
well that was rather clear from the moment you brought up the prison/poor argument
* alexgordon
shrugs
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<yorickpeterse>
equality in general and feminism are two different things, though the latter is a "sub category" of the former
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: yes, like I said, feminism is about making life better for women
<yorickpeterse>
it's about making their lifes equally good compared to men
<yorickpeterse>
get your facts right
<alexgordon>
which is not bad per se, but I wish they didn't frame it as "equality"
<yorickpeterse>
why not? It's *exactly* what equality means
<yorickpeterse>
literally, to be equal
<yorickpeterse>
that's all it aims for
<yorickpeterse>
if men were a minority it would be exactly the other way around
* ELLIOTTCABLE
fans the flames
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: O_O
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yorickpeterse: (by the way: did you read the article that started this discussion?)
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: also men ARE a minority
<alexgordon>
there's more women than men
<yorickpeterse>
ELLIOTTCABLE: No, too much in the backlog
<alexgordon>
trololol
<yorickpeterse>
alexgordon: perhaps in your imaginary world
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: no literally, there are more women than men
<yorickpeterse>
But in all seriousness, I recommend you to read through that Wiki and in particular the timeline which is at....
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: like I said, my definition of "equality" is "giving everybody the same rights as everybody else"
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yorickpeterse: Do so, before you start arguing here.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Ignoring alexgordon being a mildly sexist mildly pig, it's a really, *really* well-written and even-tempered article.
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<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: and my objection is that feminists seem to think that "equality" means "giving women equal rights to men", which has the implicit assumption that men are completely superior to women (maybe that's how they like it!)
<alexgordon>
I actually see myself as being far less sexist than feminists, and if you don't agree with that then I am happy to ignore and/or argue with you all day
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yorickpeterse: there's the link. Hit it. Trust me.
<rjrbt>
less sexist than feminists? what does that even mean?
<alexgordon>
before I started reading all this feminist shit I had this innocent assumption that men and women were pretty much the same, and that you treat people as _people_
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
rjrbt: oh, alexgordon thinks feminists are sexist. I don't think anyone agrees with him.
<alexgordon>
but then I found out that I'm a male ogre and I should just die in a ditch or something
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: you say that like it's mean to be sarcastic, but it's actually pretty accurate.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I'm perplexed by your position. I never saw you as a feminist!
<alexgordon>
how many alaskan men are feminists? :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Thinking women are given equal status to men, right now, *is* being a male ogre and dying-in-a-ditch and etceteras etceteras (okay, exaggeration … but your own words). Because they're *not*, and you're not aware of that fact; and a large part of what's keeping them that way is your own ignorance of that state of affairs,
<rjrbt>
I'm happily married to a feminist and consider myself one as well. It is really easy to assume the playing field is "pretty much even" when you happen to be a member of privileged classes such as: white, male, middle-class, american
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: Oh, I'm not.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm extremely middle-ground, at least at the moment.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I never said that women have equal status
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
For whatever it's worth to give the discussion context: I was raised Republican, and I'm definitely still conservative, if not perhaps even a radical libertarian nutjob.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
My position, right here and now (though still developing), on the issues of feminism in tech, boil down to this:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“It's a really good time to sit down and listen.”
<rjrbt>
I'm a chomsky-loving libertarian socialist :)
<heimidal>
the other day, a self-proclaimed "feminist" told me that I can't be a feminist myself because
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“Lack of critical awareness about the sea in which one swims is a very difficult problem to overcome and requires dropping down defenses to listen, as a first step.”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
again, quoting the article.
<heimidal>
"gay men have no context of the female condition"
<heimidal>
>_<
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Couldn't *be* more right.
<alexgordon>
heimidal: LOL
<purr>
LOL
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(did we lose glowcoil?)
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: he went to class
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Man, I hate his new branding.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I mean, personal branding is cool, and all, but now I just can't help feeling like I'm mentioning some IRC random. Micah, now that's a *real person*.
<alexgordon>
indeed
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
rjrbt, heimidal: also, hi!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
welcome to #ELLIOTTCABLE. Don't shit yourselves. And go read the article in the /topic, if you haven't.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: it's a problem with IRC... there should be some way to set per-channel nicks
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: then we could all just use our first names
<heimidal>
hi, ELLIOTTCABLE, long time
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: that's a neat idea. Would be easy to P2P that. Use a non-standard ctcp or something? Perhaps put it in the /version flag?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
heimidal: right? Gods, last time we talked, I still wrote Ruby.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Miss those days.
<heimidal>
last time we talked, I still programmed for a living!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
what're you up to now?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I've almost stopped programming entirely, which means you missed my entire JavaScript stage, *and* my programming-language-theory stage. Now I'm getting into electronics and making.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
also, I live in Chicago. that happened somewhere in there.
<whitequark>
wow what the fuck
<whitequark>
so much feminist discussion
<whitequark>
can't even be arsed to read this much
<heimidal>
now I'm the director of the Pivotal Labs office here in Denver, which means I manage projects and devs, but rarely (if ever) get a chance to write code at work. still do in my free time, though.
<alexgordon>
whitequark: it's really not that interesting
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: "maker"
<whitequark>
so
<alexgordon>
whitequark: a bunch of people misunderstanding each other and calling each other names
<whitequark>
tell me, maker, what do you use your ridiculously expensive 3D printer?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
heimidal: Got a friend moving to Denver, soon.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
if I'm in and out of the area as much as I expect to be … I'll definitely hit you up. (=
<heimidal>
does he need a job? :P
<heimidal>
sounds good
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
she, and nah, she's a designer
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… that said …
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
there's a tiny chance I might be interested in moving to the area.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
take it to /privmsg.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(I'll brb though, want to hop in the shower.)
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE, heimidal: HA
<alexgordon>
sexist!
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: like, I'm genuinely interested in that
<alexgordon>
xD
<whitequark>
because I can't see what 3D printers are useful for, except:
<whitequark>
1) art
<whitequark>
2) making more 3D printers
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: I don't *have* one yet.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
'cuz ColossalOwl was a goddamn dud.
<heimidal>
we hire designers, too ;)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
just e-mailed formlabs about fifteen minutes ago, actually. gotta check on the replacement.
<whitequark>
my CNC *is* useful, but it has so fucking colossal learning curve that it's not even nearly a replacement for a 3D printer
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
heimidal: again, privmsg. Pivotal is cool. Maybe I can make a connection for you. <3
<whitequark>
I'm fucking with it nonstop for almost 1 month and I've barely scratched the surface
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: I think that's kinda the point.
<heimidal>
PM me when you are back
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
They're different stages of prototyping.
<whitequark>
a mock device, could be made out of wood in the past
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
3D printing is basically the lowest, first stage; only for parts which don't require precision to demonstrate the basics of the concept or device;
* whitequark
shrugs
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
CNC is for prototyping the precision stages;
<whitequark>
right, I can see that
<whitequark>
CNC is not just for prototyping! some products are CNC-machined for prod.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but neither replaces real manufacturing techniques; both are simply for prototyping different physical portions (or time-linear stages) of the product.
<whitequark>
you're wrong.
<whitequark>
pick&place machine is essentially a CNC one
<whitequark>
drilling PCBs? same thing.
<whitequark>
milling? yeah.
<whitequark>
for prod boards.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
forgive me, I don't mean *any* computer-controled device.
<whitequark>
cases? for expensive products you'll get CNC-machined cases.
<whitequark>
hm?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
by those standards, 3D printing is *also* CNC, with an extruder (in most cases) instead of a router.
<whitequark>
see above... I mean a CNC mill
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but ‘CNC’ (routing) at your level, like 3D printing at mine … all of them are “desktop prototyping.”
<whitequark>
totally used in production, just not for cheapest stuff
<whitequark>
e.g. your iPhone case is CNC-machined afaik.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and routing-style desktop prototyping is no more useful or better than extruder-style desktop prototyping, or my Form 1's approach.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
all have different use-cases, but they're all for the same purpose: relatively quick-setup, low-volume prototyping.
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<whitequark>
hrm
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… not sure why we're arguing this. I have my plans for a printer, and a mill would be nice in the farther future as well. If you can't see the possible uses for it, then … I suppose I just have to say, “that's not my problem.” :x
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so I'm off to shower. still love you <3
<alexgordon>
LOVE YOU TOO ELLIOTT
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Love it. Died a little.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
izs' law: “the only good database is one you haven't used yet”
<yorickpeterse>
last one has rape related things so read it at your own risk
<alexgordon>
at my own risk? lol
<purr>
lol
<rjrbt>
thanks for these. super userful.
<joelteon>
it's like stepping into bizarro world
<yorickpeterse>
I mean this seriously, if you want to understand why people make a fuzz about it that wiki seriously is your best starting point
<yorickpeterse>
alexgordon: some people don't like subjects that involve rape, hence the warning
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: obviously rape is bad, but most of these are just geeks being awkward geeks, some of them aren't even about sexism at all but about "sexualization"
<yorickpeterse>
again, read the wiki
<alexgordon>
I am reading it
<joelteon>
the bitcoin meetup one is weird
<joelteon>
because i can imagine that happening
<joelteon>
but at the same time, i've been to plenty of meetups and nothing like that has ever happened
<alexgordon>
I mean "TechCrunch Disrupt Hackathon incident A team at TechCrunch Disrupt 2013 presents the TitStare app, which allows users to post and view pictures of men staring at people's cleavage. Another presenter pretended to masturbate on stage. TechCrunch apologized for the incidents. " is hilarious :D
<yorickpeterse>
joelteon: same here, I've met plenty of nice people on both ends
<yorickpeterse>
alexgordon: now imagine you're a woman, you've had to deal with sexist neckbeards for 25 years of your life (or w/e age you would be)
<yorickpeterse>
You go there
<yorickpeterse>
and there's 2 dudes making dick jokes on stage (basically)
<yorickpeterse>
inc an app for it
<joelteon>
so what do i do about this
<yorickpeterse>
Then imagine everybody thinking it's hysterical
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: ? what's sexist about dick jokes exactly
<alexgordon>
women make dick jokes too, just turn on the TV
<alexgordon>
dick jokes are a human thing, not a "men" thing
<yorickpeterse>
"Hitler killing people isn't bad, people in Afrida die too" <- same argument
<alexgordon>
we've hit godwin's law
<yorickpeterse>
It's sexist because it's part of a stereotype: that the audience is male or otherwise ok with it
<alexgordon>
and that they should be
<joelteon>
yeah, this discussion is now obsolete
<alexgordon>
dick jokes are great
<yorickpeterse>
More importantly, it's part of this stereotype that it's ok
<alexgordon>
they ARE ok
<yorickpeterse>
Well, with that I'm done and back to work
<yorickpeterse>
I can't help you, only time can help you
<yorickpeterse>
or perhaps a first hand experience
<yorickpeterse>
As an exercise:
<rjrbt>
titstare is objectification and inherently implies "women are meat, not equals"
<yorickpeterse>
Go do your groceries next time wearing a blonde wig and a dress
<yorickpeterse>
or perhaps go to a programming meetup that way
<alexgordon>
rjrbt: nah it implies that men are stupid and unnecessarily obsessed with sex
<alexgordon>
rjrbt: depends on your perspective, right?
<joelteon>
go to a programming meetup dressed as a woman
<joelteon>
you probably won't see anything out of the ordinary
<rjrbt>
wrong. this behavior is cultural, not genetic.
<joelteon>
as me and yorickpeterse both established about 5 minutes ago
<joelteon>
but yeah, do that
<yorickpeterse>
haha, saying this is genetic is like saying intelligence is genetic
<alexgordon>
as I said a long way back, me and feminists are just so far apart from how we think the world should be
<alexgordon>
I turn on the TV, I hear women making dick jokes, and you know what I do? I laugh
<yorickpeterse>
another strawman
<yorickpeterse>
Keep digging that hole
<yorickpeterse>
perhaps your blindness will fit into it some time
* alexgordon
rolls eyes
<joelteon>
perhaps your blindness...will fit into a hole
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: haha that makes me sad and really happy at the same time that you say that
<joelteon>
????
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: HI
<joelteon>
the fuck does that mean?
<joelteon>
that sounds like something a woman would say
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: because i've been putting in the grind on social media presence lately and it feels like the dividends are beginning to trickel in :p
<glowcoil>
yorickpeterse: thanks for holding the equality fort down while I was gone haha
<yorickpeterse>
I think I can already check off 5
<glowcoil>
yorickpeterse: o/*
<glowcoil>
hi alexgordon
<yorickpeterse>
oh shit, 6 actually
<alexgordon>
:D
<glowcoil>
yorickpeterse: omg yeah
<alexgordon>
I'm just a pathological case, right?
<joelteon>
yea
<glowcoil>
wellll egh i have to walk to next class
<joelteon>
ok so i think here's what i'm reading
<yorickpeterse>
alexgordon: I would say you're just misinformed
<joelteon>
in this conversation
<joelteon>
so i'm reading the live journal article about the woman that went to the party and got sexually harrassed, then reported the guy
<joelteon>
and then he got thrown out
<joelteon>
so it's like
<joelteon>
"i went to a party"
<joelteon>
right
<joelteon>
"this guy started being creepy"
<joelteon>
yeah, some guys do that, good thing you can report him
<joelteon>
"i reported him"
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: unfortunately not. I've read a LOT of feminist writings and talked with a LOT of feminists
<joelteon>
good
<joelteon>
"he got thrown out"
<joelteon>
good
<yorickpeterse>
alexgordon: thanks, I can cross off #7
<joelteon>
"and this is an example of systematic discrimination against women"
<joelteon>
what?
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: which one is that?
<yorickpeterse>
joelteon: the reason what caused him to get thrown out is up to a certain extend, though I'm not sure what article you are referring to
<joelteon>
i cant make heads or tails of that sentence
<joelteon>
the reason is up to an extend...I'm not sure what that means
<yorickpeterse>
alexgordon: "If you're offended, you can bite me" or perhaps "Over-sensitive"
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: ???
<joelteon>
i don't even think extend can be used in that context
<yorickpeterse>
joelteon: as in, the dude being creepy
<joelteon>
yeah i'm still not following
<yorickpeterse>
I don't know the article so I can't really comment on it that much
<joelteon>
so him being creepy is up to an extend
<joelteon>
i don't know what "up to an extend" means
<yorickpeterse>
joelteon: as in, him being creepy being discrimination up to a certain extend
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: I'm not misinformed, because I have been exposed to a lot of feminist thinking
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: by definition I am not misinformed!
<yorickpeterse>
alexgordon: bingo
<joelteon>
ok i still have no fucking idea what you're saying
<yorickpeterse>
joelteon: nvm then
<yorickpeterse>
apparently I can't explain that part :P
<joelteon>
apparently you can't
<alexgordon>
god this is tiring
<joelteon>
i told you i didn't understand the phrase and you just repeated it
<joelteon>
that doesn't help
<joelteon>
maybe rephrase it?
<joelteon>
but anyway this whole issue is really confusing to me
<joelteon>
and i guess i could go over why
<joelteon>
get your bingo card out
<joelteon>
is because these women go to these conferences or whatever, get hit on by creepy basement dwellers, then either leave or report the guy
<yorickpeterse>
What I meant was, a guy being creepy could be considered discrimination towards women (assuming it was targeted at a woman)
<joelteon>
and so what it sounds like is that the existence of creepy basement dwellers somehow implies that women are systematically discriminated against
<alexgordon>
feminists seem to just want to see the worst in people
<joelteon>
ok
<yorickpeterse>
alexgordon: bingo!
<joelteon>
ok, that definitely isn't discrimination
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: :D
<joelteon>
there are creepy basement dwellers, yeah
<yorickpeterse>
joelteon: depends on what they were being creepy with
<joelteon>
the fact that they go to conferences sucks
<alexgordon>
yorickpeterse: women like porn too
<joelteon>
that shouldn't really be allowed
<yorickpeterse>
"Hey gurl I like your buubs" Probably not, "Hey gurl you're a woman so suck my dick" probably is
<joelteon>
but you can't pre-emptively filter people out
<alexgordon>
professionalism is boring [what's wrong with that one?]
<joelteon>
yeah, i read about a woman on tumblr saying men suck, so i'm discriminated against too
<yorickpeterse>
alexgordon: FYI I'm putting you on /ignore for the time being, you're being a too obvious troll and I'm getting bored
<joelteon>
apparently one person's opinion speaks for the entire gender
alexgordon is now known as alexgordon2
<alexgordon2>
yorickpeterse: I was joking ;)
alexgordon2 is now known as alexgordon
<joelteon>
but anyway, like
<alexgordon>
I miss glowcoil
<joelteon>
i don't know
<rjrbt>
the idea that speaking for the entirety of any group is flawed.
<glowcoil>
hi alexgordon
<joelteon>
don't go to conferences led by creepy neckbeards?
<alexgordon>
glowcoil!
<joelteon>
boycott it?
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: let's exchange dick jokes
<joelteon>
tell your friends not to go?
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: so tell me when you're back
<whitequark>
because you missed my point
<joelteon>
so there are men that are pieces of shit and make conferences unpleasant places to go to
<joelteon>
so don't go?
<joelteon>
or on the other hand, do go, then ascribe those qualities to *all* men
<whitequark>
I mean, there are people seriously claiming that 3D printers are today's digital literacy
<alexgordon>
joelteon: haha
<whitequark>
and there's basically hundreds of 3D printers and all kinds of praise
<joelteon>
then talk about how you are being systematically oppressed by men because there's a creepy guy.
<whitequark>
which is
<whitequark>
too much for a device which is almost useless
<joelteon>
i'm not defending creepy men
<whitequark>
I don'tget it at all
<joelteon>
i fucking hate creepy men
<whitequark>
joelteon: there seems to be systematic oppression in US though
<alexgordon>
joelteon: it's ok to generalize when you're generalizing men
<whitequark>
based on statistics, not feminist claims
<joelteon>
whitequark: well
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<joelteon>
i think out of all the conferences i've been to
<joelteon>
actually
<joelteon>
lemme rephrase that
<joelteon>
out of all conferences that have ever occurred
<whitequark>
that is, women aren't in general worse in, say, STEM, but for some reason the ratio is really biased
<joelteon>
i think the vast majority of conferences that have ever occurred were *not* biased against women
<joelteon>
because most people recognize that's not ok
<whitequark>
though I don't give a shit, it's not even my country
* whitequark
shrugs
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<whitequark>
solve your problems yourself.
<alexgordon>
whitequark: yah
<heimidal>
at a conference I attended two years ago, a female programmer heard I was gay and decided to spend two hours trying the whole "you just haven't found the right woman" and "how do you know if you haven't tried it" schtick. men aren't the only pigs at conferences.
<heimidal>
people + booze = bullshit
<joelteon>
i think the stuff that gets under my skin about this issue is that whenever people talk about it, i'm made to feel as though i'm personally responsible for these issues
<alexgordon>
heimidal: haha wow
<whitequark>
heimidal: it's at least better than "eww, you're not a man, LOOK AT HIM HE IS NOT A MAN"
<joelteon>
when that's the diametric opposite to the case
<alexgordon>
heimidal: come to russia! I hear the situation is much better
<heimidal>
hah
<whitequark>
which would unfortunately be 100% conceivable to happen here
<whitequark>
likely even, in some cases.
<joelteon>
but then again
<whitequark>
not on tech confs
<heimidal>
whitequark: where is "here"?
<joelteon>
i don't think you guys mean to accuse me personally
<whitequark>
russia
<joelteon>
any more than geek feminists mean to accuse every human male in the united states of discrimination
<joelteon>
it does come across that way
<whitequark>
there's an incredibly internalized bias against gays, beat into collective consciousness for decades
<alexgordon>
joelteon: that's an interesting way of looking at it that I hadn't considered
<whitequark>
prison culture
<whitequark>
mainly
<alexgordon>
joelteon: feminists don't _mean_ to say that I'm sexist, in the same way that people who make dick jokes don't _mean_ to offend feminists
<whitequark>
even in language: someone you would call a "dick" would be most likely called a "fag" here
<whitequark>
approximately.
<whitequark>
it's really bad
<alexgordon>
joelteon: so maybe we can all get along after all
<purr>
hah
<joelteon>
i hope so
<alexgordon>
group hug!
<joelteon>
i don't want to get into a dick measuring competition about who can accidentally offend who
<joelteon>
err
<joelteon>
i mean a vagina measuring competition
<whitequark>
lol
<purr>
lol
<whitequark>
the mental image is hilarious
eligrey has joined #elliottcable
<joelteon>
i'm *guessing* that's why this issue annoys me, i can't personally pin it down but that's what i'm guessing it is
<heimidal>
whitequark: that happens here in the US all the time. "fag" is thrown around by teenagers and immature white guys constantly as a derogatory slur.
<whitequark>
heimidal: I know, hence my usage of it
<whitequark>
but as far as I can see, it's not internalized in the way it is here
<joelteon>
it's to the point where "being a faggot" is semantically decoupled from actually "being gay"
<alexgordon>
as in "I'm just going out for a fag", which means "I'm just going out to find a homosexual"
<eligrey>
that feel when you misread your calendar the night before (after midnight) and prepare for the day after tomorrow when you wake up
<whitequark>
joelteon: ah, then it is
<whitequark>
same thing here.
<joelteon>
nobody cares if you're gay
<joelteon>
but stop being a faggot
<eligrey>
only to realize your appointment was tomorrow and you dont have to go anywhere today
<heimidal>
yes, it's semantically decoupled for everyone *except the people who are actually offended by it*
<whitequark>
brb
<joelteon>
well, semantic decoupling takes a little work
<joelteon>
but i agree that people shouldn't be called fags
<eligrey>
call people by their names but with lots of snide
<eligrey>
thats the best insult
<heimidal>
like, say, me and most of my friends in high school. I internalized that to no end when I was a teenager. it's hard not to internalize it and feel ashamed of who you are when "fag" and "gay" are so widely used, but we're not "supposed" to be offended.
<joelteon>
oh i see
<joelteon>
yeah that's another reason i don't like "fag"
<eligrey>
im pretty sure there were zero gay men in my highschool
<eligrey>
but like 10 gay women
<eligrey>
s/10/4/
prophile has quit [Quit: The Game]
<glowcoil>
joelteon: re you being made to feel personally responsible, i don't think anyone thinks you consciously work to worsen inequality. however: there are things about your actions, as there are about everyone's which unconsciously contribute to inequality, and if you refuse to acknowledge this and consciously work to change them, you are unconsciously contributing to the problem
<heimidal>
because of that, I eventually stopped using the words "pussy" and "cunt" for the same reasons -- I assumed that, if I feel ashamed for those words, it's likely some women feel a similar amount of self loathing when you throw around feminine pejoratives.
<joelteon>
that i also disagree with
<glowcoil>
joelteon: so it can feel like you are being accused, and that is not a fun feeling to have. however: if you really, truly want to improve, the world, realize that no one holds malice towards you or wants to make you feel bad except inasmuch as that will make you want to work to change your actions.
<joelteon>
right.
<glowcoil>
joelteon: so, if you really, truly want to improve the world, you have to do your best to avoid feeling offended or perceiving such statements as accusations
<joelteon>
i'm not telling you to stop accusing me, i'm just making you aware
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: tl;dr: thoughtcrime
<joelteon>
ok, sorry, i'll stop feeling offended
<joelteon>
bingo
<glowcoil>
joelteon: and instead just think to yourself how you can work to improve the world
<glowcoil>
joelteon: what i'm saying is i've gone through the exact same thing
<joelteon>
hey guys, speaking of feminism
<glowcoil>
joelteon: i used to feel offended and perceive things like this as accusations
<joelteon>
if I have ssl_verify_client optional in my nginx conf
<glowcoil>
joelteon: i'm not trying to divide us into teams
<joelteon>
will it ask every user of my website to provide a client cert
<joelteon>
whether or not they have one
<joelteon>
that would suck
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: that is a faily ridiculous comparison. would you care to go over it in more detail?
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: dude it's me, alexgordon
<alexgordon>
I say ridiculous things
* glowcoil
rolls eyes
<glowcoil>
throw out a 1984 comparison
<glowcoil>
back away and refuse to flesh it out
<glowcoil>
argument sniping
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I am, 90% of the time, not being serious
<rjrbt>
no one is saying you "can't" think sexist thoughts. The point is that if you do, you are limiting yourself. Anti-feminism is a defeatist and sad view of manhood. It is fatalistic and implies that men shouldn't be expected to transcend sociopathy
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: you should know this by now ;)
<joelteon>
i never said i was anti-feminist
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: well you don't have to be serious about this topic because you are not on the opporessed side of things
<glowcoil>
joelteon: right, i believe you entirely about that
<glowcoil>
joelteon: i'm entirely on your side here
<glowcoil>
joelteon: i sympathize with those feelings and was describing how i deal with them
<joelteon>
ok
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: that's a matter of opinion, but I would hope that if I were oppressed, I would not stop joking around
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: sure but there's a way of joking around that preserves the status quo
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: tl;dr: thoughtcrime
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: i and most feminists i know joke around
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: ugggggh
<joelteon>
alexgordon PLS
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: *please* flesh that comparison out
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: or stop thought-sniping
<glowcoil>
you are using thought-terminating cliches
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: there are three sorts of things: actions, words and thoughts
<rjrbt>
glowcoil: yes.
<glowcoil>
which ironically is what you're accusing me of
<whitequark>
argh
<whitequark>
wtf
<whitequark>
you guys
<yorickpeterse>
alex still digging that hole?
<yorickpeterse>
must be a lot of dirt
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: thoughts are the most powerful of the three, but, in civilized society, we have a gentleman's agreement to not take them into account -- we don't punish thoughts because they are so easy to create and change
<rjrbt>
alexgordon: ??? what does that even mean.
<joelteon>
what's hard to understand about that
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: no one is punishing you for your thoughts
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Woah. Shit got serious while I was AFK.
<alexgordon>
rf
<alexgordon>
hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<joelteon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: filthy commie
<heimidal>
I think it's fair to say that joking around is all about knowing your audience. if you don't actually know who you're communicating with, keeping things professional is usually a good plan. most of my feminist friends are self deprecating in private.
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: you're saying I'm the problem because I think in a certain way
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
what heimidal said.
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: got my comments?
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: even if I treat women perfectly, I am still "bad" because of my thinking
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: you have a choice, at every moment, to push your future thoughts in any given direction, an infinitesimal amount
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I can make jokes about Ruby programmers in here that would be *absolutely* inappropriate at a conference.
<whitequark>
ie, I'm not saying CNC mills are better than 3D printers because they're not (learning curve). you misunderstood that
<yorickpeterse>
Fuck those Ruby programmers
<rjrbt>
alexgordon: a "gentleman's agreement". those are almost always bad news.
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: and so, you can point out that particular types of thoughts are problematic
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: and exhort everyone to negatively reinforce those in their own minds
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Somebody gets up on stage and says something disparaging about all Ruby programmers, do you think that would go down well? What about a “find the nearest PHP programmer to teach the good news about Ruby” app?
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I can, but what if I don't want to. aren't my thoughts mine and only mine?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Pretty sure there'd be <some <--> lots> of backlash about that.
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: if you don't want to then you must accept the consequences
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: too many conversations going on. Save the CNC conversation for when we don't have visitors? :P
<whitequark>
ok
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: that's the thing though, you don't know what my thoughts are
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: because your thoughts will subtly color the aspects of your actions you aren't aware of for the rest of your life
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
either that, or until we internalize heimidal, the poor bastard, for good.
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: you only know my words and actions
<whitequark>
glowcoil: so the thing is, I don't want to live in a society which polices thoughts
<glowcoil>
alexgordon, whitequark: the thing is, *no one* here is policing thoughts or advocating such
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: you can rail against people for saying or doing things you think are backwards, but thoughts are entirely mine to do with as I please
<whitequark>
it appears to me you just did?
<whitequark>
"either change the way you think OR prepare for consequences"
<yorickpeterse>
It states that if you don't somebody *might* do something about it that you don't want
<yorickpeterse>
not that you *have* to change it (e.g. in a legal sense)
<glowcoil>
alexgordon, whitequark: what is being said is that words and actions *result from* thoughts. certain patterns of words and actions are harmful and stem from certain patterns of thoughts. thus, we want to argue against those thoughts, push against them
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I understand the lustre, I really do. Nothing can effect change more than a widespread change in *thinking*
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… but seriously, I'm sorry guys, I gotta back out of this conversation. I'm here, but I want to catch up on my previous spec-work today. See if i can move it forward, anywhere. And that's not gonna happen if I'm arguing against feminism in here.
<yorickpeterse>
e.g. I'm free to say shit about people but they *might* come after me for it
<whitequark>
glowcoil: well, exactly. you *are* policing thoughts
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Hilight me if you want me.
<whitequark>
glowcoil: I'm absolutely for policing the behavior, it is a very useful tool
<glowcoil>
whitequark: when i said be aware of consequences, i did not mean that people will punish you for them, to any degree
<heimidal>
alexgordon: no one can perceive you as "bad" based on your thoughts alone. if you end of feeling self angst internally, then maybe it's a signal that your self conscious wants you to open up to new ideas. if you put your thoughts out there, they go from being thoughts to being outright communication with the outside world, which people have a right to form an opinion on.
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: but, it is not for you or anybody to say that I'm bad for thinking in a certain way
<alexgordon>
only my words and actions are up for discussion
<glowcoil>
whitequark: i meant, if you want to feel morally at ease about thoes thoughts, you must accept that you will inevitably affect the world through the actions resulting from them
<joelteon>
boy this got meta
<rjrbt>
this got stupdic.
<glowcoil>
whitequark: that's what i mean by "accept the consequences"
<rjrbt>
stupid....
<whitequark>
glowcoil: wat
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
rjrbt: You're implying it didn't *start out* stupid.
<rjrbt>
is this a conversation buy 17 year old boys who just read Atlas Shrugged. that is what it feels like.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE ++
<purr>
Let it be known that alexgordon loves ELLIOTTCABLE.
<glowcoil>
whitequark: as in, you cannot argue that "i'm fine thinking these thoughts" and then sit back and be ok
<whitequark>
glowcoil: I "want to" feel morally at ease about some thoughts?
<heimidal>
ELLIOTTCABLE: ping me about Denver whenever
<rjrbt>
by... damn... my spelling is shot.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
heimidal: ah, yes.
<alexgordon>
rjrbt: no way, micah is like 18
<rjrbt>
ELLIOTCABLE: hahaha
<glowcoil>
whitequark: if you're not working to push your thoughts in a direction then there's a thing you could do to improve the world that you are not doing
<whitequark>
glowcoil: "while you are throwing out food here, children in Nigeria are starving" fallacy.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: not at all.
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: thank you
<rjrbt>
joelteon: I know right? I'm out of control.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
food can't be transported to Nigeria instantly and usefully.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Thoughts can travel the world with no limits to their extent, instantly, and key, *usefully*.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
That's not a *fallacy*.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Call girls cunt-holes, threaten alexgordon's mother with food poisoning, kill a puppy on video, whatever, it's #ELLIOTTCABLE
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: you're saying that the cost of changing your thought patterns is zero
<whitequark>
which isn't true
<alexgordon>
cunt-holes? isn't that a tautology?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but don't goddamn abuse the argument of fallacy.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: cost of creating food isn't zero. Cost of *transporting* the already-created food is what creates the throwing-away-food conundrum.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: (that's the joke)
<whitequark>
glowcoil: I don't "want to" (weird assumption) or feel morally at ease or otherwise about *any* thoughts
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: (good job you get a candy)
<glowcoil>
whitequark, alexgordon: another key difference regarding thoughts is that *your* actions, with nonzero cost, are having a negative impact
<glowcoil>
whitequark, alexgordon: your conversation and body language with women you encounter at conferences, for instance
* whitequark
sighs
<glowcoil>
whitequark, alexgordon: so you are effectively actively causing harm in certain ways that you are not aware of
<whitequark>
I'll just leave you to masturbate to your moral superiority here and go do something useful
<joelteon>
how do you know
<glowcoil>
whereas you're not actively accidentally taking food out of starving childrens' hands
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: you're making the assumption that my thoughts affect that
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I have always, and will always treat women as equals
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
That's not an assumption, that's fact.
<alexgordon>
that's just what I've always done, I don't see any reason to change it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Let's avoid the generalizations and take a specific:
<rjrbt>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yes.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Every tweet I see from a militant feminist nutjob, whether I enjoy it or not, is increasing my *awareness* of the issues discussed herein. That's fact.
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: so in that respect, I am everything that feminists espouse. Their problem with me is that I just disagree with most of what they say
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(Every such tweet also increases my association of those issues with the negative emotion of annoyance; my original point in this discussion, by the way.)
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: so my "crimes" are entirely thought-based
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: consider this scenario
<rjrbt>
using the term "they" to describe any group is almost always misguided.
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: interviewer considers several candidates
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: wants to maximize "cultural fit"
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Similarly, every single time you dismiss the topic in this room, around me, you're decreasing the relative *importance* of that topic in my mind, alexgordon. Again whether I like it or not.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
By *interacting*, one spreads their beliefs.
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: no matter how much the interviewer is convinced that he/she is making that decision entirely objectively
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: for such a high-level, subjective decision, unconscious biases *inevitably* play a role
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
And your belief, one that we clearly believe is negative and wrong (sorry. just stating fact, something I think you already know. don't hate me.), is thus being spread to all around you, on a daily basis.
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: and thus if the interviewer doesn't consciously work to change his/her biases
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
So, ignoring the topic of whether you're wrong or not, for the moment,
<rjrbt>
using anecdotes to describe broad systemic problems is like using the daily weather report to describe climate change.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yeah. we all want other people to think the same way that we do, it's human nature. But I don't say that people are _bad_ for thinking in a certain way
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
*please* tell me that you can at least accede that your beliefs *do* affect others.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: they don't.
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: as an extreme example I am going to say that people are bad for holding white supremacist thoughts
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: so in the limit, thoughts are not free from criticism
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: but if a white supremacist is always courteous to black people, and never says a bad word against them, are they still bad?
<alexgordon>
hell that's better than me
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
They are neither exempt from criticism *inherently* (in the situation where they're not affecting others, i.e. where they're magically a perfectly spherical thought that never affects your interactions with the outside world,)
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: if that white supremacist is an interviewer he/she will hold a severe bias in those subjective decision i discussed
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: and more pervasively, his/her thoughts will affect the world in numerous, untrackable ways
<rjrbt>
alexgordon: you are the only one making the "crimes" claim.
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: have you h eard of the overton window
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… nor, more importantly, are they inherently internal. Worldviews are explicitly external, despite popular opinion to the contrary.
<alexgordon>
rjrbt: nah, micah was saying it earlier, I can dig out the quotes if you want
<rjrbt>
alexgordon: ah... missed that.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
12:13 PM <+alexgordon> glowcoil: but if a white supremacist is always courteous to black people, and never says a bad word against them, are they still bad?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yesyesyesyes that's the point
<glowcoil>
rjrbt, alexgordon: entirely false
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
sorry, too many cooks, I'll shut up and let glowcoil do the talking
<alexgordon>
rjrbt: metaphorical crimes, ofc. nobody is saying that sexism is illegal!
* ELLIOTTCABLE
arks some more
<glowcoil>
rjrbt, alexgordon: I only *ever* used crime when discussing alexgordon's use of the thought-terminating "thoughtcrime" cliche
<alexgordon>
yeah I didn't mean to say that you actually said the word "crime". it's a metaphor
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: you were doing a great job of expressing the ways thoughts affect the world
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
It comes down to this:
<rjrbt>
my point is making the "thoughtcrimes" argument is a strawman to show absurdity, but it is really only used to excuse lazy thinking.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: Your *are correct*, but only for perfectly spherical values of ‘thought.’
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: HAHA
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: In the real world, please understand that thought *does* affect the world around you. On a daily basis (i.e. constantly.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
That your example-nazi's opinions on black people don't affect his *conscious* actions, doesn't affect the argument here:
<rjrbt>
if thought didn't affect the world around us, we would be living in trees eating leaves.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
He may politely open the door for the black candidate, and call him ‘sir,’ and serve him roast-beef sandwiches from the cafe before the interview …
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… but he will still choose another candidate.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
His thoughts *affect the world*, and FAR MORE RELEVANTLY TO THIS DISCUSSION (glare glowcoil),
<glowcoil>
5:16:46 <+ELLIOTTCABLE> alexgordon: Your *are correct*, but only for perfectly spherical values of ‘thought.’
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
his affect on the world is magnified by his position of power.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Which is the really salient point here.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: not necessarily. I mean, for one he'd risk going to jail :P
<joelteon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: what if he chooses the black guy
<alexgordon>
yeah, that
<alexgordon>
I get what you're saying
<alexgordon>
that thought affects thought
<joelteon>
what if he cares more about the company succeeding than black people not getting jobs
<rjrbt>
I think it comes down to: don't be an asshole and try to put yourself in other peoples shoes.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: and so while his thoughts might not affect his actions, they may affect _other thoughts_, which will affect actions
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
At the moment, geek-mens' subtle and subconscious prejudice towards women (which I posit is not our fault, and not something for which we should be reviled or assaulted, by the way), coupled with the power-mangification of geek-mens' prevalence in this temporarily-particularly-lucrative field,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
is *compounding* that prevalence.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
sorry
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
done
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
COED
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-spec @ ELLIOTTCABLE
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: Paws' half-arsed Version 10 specification <http://ell.io/ihQzs>
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: closed*?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: hm?
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: was confused by "COED" :p
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
COEEEDINNNNGGGGTIEM
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
er, actually
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
SPEAC TIEM
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: also probably the majority of the concrete details in that document don't apply to the ideal paws in micah's head haha
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: ah ok
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yes, I know
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hands ≠ paws
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
;)
<glowcoil>
ya
<alexgordon>
dicks
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
was it devyn who was surprised there was a spec going along?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
this spec is the worst thing am I even programmer
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(why isn't there a butt emoji. butts are important.)
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: ear-fuck?
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: hahaha
<glowcoil>
(re ami even)
<glowcoil>
i'm not convinced that a complex spec is the right direction
<glowcoil>
atm
<glowcoil>
like alexgordon and inimino said to make one
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I heavily trust both of them on this topic, unfortunately.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
unfortunately for me, that is.
<glowcoil>
but i feel like the changes that still might happen would render large portions irrelevant, *while* still not making it hard to keep paws in alexgordon's head
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
agreed entirely.
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: yeah but it's better than nothing
<glowcoil>
alexgordon's head just has an infinitesimal pie chart slice devoted to it
<glowcoil>
to paws
<glowcoil>
and so, nothing at all can fit
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
here's the point:
<glowcoil>
no matter its flux
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: before elliott wrote the spec I didn't know the first thing about paws
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
we implement the spec, as-is, imperfections and things-that-will-later-be-changed and all.
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I knew all these disparate concepts but not the bits inbetween
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and then, at the very least, we have static code to point back at *when discussing changes*.
<alexgordon>
I still don't, fwiw
<alexgordon>
but I know a bit more than before
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that's why the spec is versioned like that.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm well aware that any spec will have to be trashed and re-written, and that sucks dick, and probably means that Paws Won't™.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
as in, won't be created, or run code, or ever exist, or make sense to anybody. pick one, pick three, pick sausages.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but, too bad, it's the only way forward I see.
<glowcoil>
i just think we all have such little time atm that we're devoting to paws
<glowcoil>
for it to be worthwhile
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hm
<glowcoil>
specs take months of bikeshedding
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I don't know. I feel far more …
<glowcoil>
and are good when you want a 1.0
<glowcoil>
and an RFC
<glowcoil>
and a Python mailing list discussion
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
productive, diving into a computer for a day after years away from programming, by trying to catch up and advance this spec document
<glowcoil>
right that makes sense
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
than I do by popping a vim and trying to add code to Paws.js or something. |=
* glowcoil
nods
<glowcoil>
yeah
<glowcoil>
idk if i didn't have a horrifying amount of physics to learn by friday i would marathon it right now
<glowcoil>
i've half-implemented it so many times
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I've tried to write Paws. it's *clear* that the design is too self-entangled and, well, ‘buggy’ for a theoretical value of buggy, for me to actually write a functioning one.
<glowcoil>
that i know exactly how i would
<joelteon>
so I have to write a thing
<glowcoil>
like i've resolved those tangles in my head re impls
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I can't disentangle it alone, I've tried. I need apparently obvious observations from the likes of alexgordon.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and, I can't get those, without clarifying everything that *is* in my head.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
So, spec -> collaboration -> disentanglement -> implementation
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
with the nice side-effect of it forking after ‘disentanglement’ into *multiple* implementations, which allows for us to start banging out the federation.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“horrifying amount of physics”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
tell us, glowcoil, what *is* the base unit with which one measures quantities of physics?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
‘Express your unhappiness in units-headache per units-physics.’
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: well, colloquially and in engineering it's often man-hours
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: but, since man is really in J/s
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: the more physicsey way is just J
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: actually, kiloman-hours
<whitequark>
oh, neat, back to paws
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: you never did express your objections well
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: but then again, I don't think anybody ever actually taught you Paws
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I'm still waiting
<whitequark>
you promised it like
<whitequark>
a year ago
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Kiloman.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Oh my god, I want to be Kiloman.
<whitequark>
kiloman?
ELLIOTTCABLE is now known as Kiloman
<Kiloman>
NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT TAKEN
<whitequark>
wat
<Kiloman>
I'd try Petaman, except people would probably think I don't viciously murder delicious, innocent animals on a regular basis. And that'd be misleading, and wrong.
<whitequark>
Kiloman: wat.
<purr>
beep.
<Kiloman>
Deciman? but that implies micropenis.
<Kiloman>
Hectoman!
<glowcoil>
whitequark: if you didn't get the joke i was alluding to kw/h vs J
<Kiloman>
kimdone
Kiloman is now known as ELLIOTTCABLE
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vil!
<whitequark>
glowcoil: ooooh
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
stop twittering and get in here
<whitequark>
I didn't read this part
<glowcoil>
whitequark: and how man-hours is also a thing haha
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
man-hours is such a terribly dumb measurement
<glowcoil>
haha yes
<glowcoil>
except for after the fact really though
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
true.
<glowcoil>
like say, this game took x man hours
<glowcoil>
to make
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and it becomes more accurate in the average.
<glowcoil>
gives a very good indicator of a lot of things
<glowcoil>
can be distilled to budget or mans often though
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
maybe we should devote our time to developing a truly useful measurement of software productivity.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I've always intuitively felt that “number of fully-granular tests” was moving on towards a really good approximation of such things.
<glowcoil>
egh i don't test
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yes I know
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but it's an *approximation* of what I'd really like to see measured;
<glowcoil>
so i am the most unproductive programmer on earth!
<glowcoil>
;)
<whitequark>
"fully-granular tests"
<glowcoil>
(not far from true tbh)
<glowcoil>
welllll time to walk to lunch
<whitequark>
and what if I use a statically typed language and 80% of tests you ould write are useless? ;)
<glowcoil>
i am hongry
<glowcoil>
whitequark: lolol
<purr>
lolol
<glowcoil>
whitequark: count statically typed programs as X% productive automatically where X is coverage of type system
<glowcoil>
bye all
* glowcoil
waves
* glowcoil
hugs
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Ideally, one would want to measure *every single tiny feature* provided by a codebase (for instance, an API correctly handling -1 when it expects 1..10; that's A Feature.), and then subtract any that are known to be buggy after a suitable period of time.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
That'd be a pretty ideal measurement of effort, IMO.
<heimidal>
I like his contributions to the dev community. I don't like his politics.
<whitequark>
specifically?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wat
<heimidal>
his support of Prop 8 in California
<heimidal>
given how progressive most other tech orgs are, my hope is he doesn't do anything to make Mozilla a less attractive organization for GLBT folk. Google and Apple have been killing it when it comes to attracting great GLBT talent.
<heimidal>
lunch!
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<whitequark>
oh.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Pissed as all fuck.
* ELLIOTTCABLE
I returned my dud Form 1, and despite having received it, they still haven't gotten a replacement out to me.
<cloudhead>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yo yo
<cloudhead>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I'm back in the game
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ugh irccloud
<cloudhead>
ELLIOTTCABLE: fully recovered
<cloudhead>
ELLIOTTCABLE: better than ever
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh yeah? what're you up to?
<cloudhead>
I'm doing game programming now
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: just fix it
<whitequark>
have you seen my laptop fix? :p
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cloudhead: who isn't? :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cloudhead: hang out with glowcoil more.
<cloudhead>
:D
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
GOD DAMNIT IT FEELS LIKE THERE'S NEEDLES IN MY PENIS
<cloudhead>
gotta drink more water dude
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: there's only one needle in your penis, dear
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
owowowowow
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Okay, y'all're smart. I *should* know about this, but I don't, and I feel dumb.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
My home internet is … slow. For no reason I can discern.
<whitequark>
that can be attributed to a dozen obvious reasons and a thousand obscure ones
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
A) bandwidth-wise, it's Quite Fast. Can download large, continuous files quickly.
<whitequark>
well
<whitequark>
can you reproduce it?
<whitequark>
i.e. can you say "this wget request is slow"
<whitequark>
if yes, record a wireshark log and post it somewhere. I'll walk you through the analysis
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
B) ping-wise, it's pretty consistent. Hovers around 30ms to 8.8.8.8. Doesn't drop many packets, and even then, they're only slower by 100ms.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
No, I cannot reproduce.
<whitequark>
okay
<whitequark>
wild guess
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
My only observation is “the actual *internet* is slow.”
<whitequark>
try lowering MTU.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Wikipedia will randomly take fucking three to five minutes to load a page.
<whitequark>
hm, wait
<whitequark>
is it ADSL or cable?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cable.
<whitequark>
PPPoE rings a bell?
<whitequark>
PPPoA perhaps?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Once in a while, or on days when it's particularly bad, a particular page-load will never complete AT ALL
<whitequark>
yep, sounds like an MTU issue.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
in which case I'll have to reload the thing, and it reloads instantly.
<whitequark>
try lowering it to, say
<whitequark>
1420
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
today it's the worst I've ever seen it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
where/how/wat
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm on WiFi, Airport Extreme.
<whitequark>
on linux, sudo ip link set wlan0 mtu 1420
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and I lied not cable anymore, ick
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's, uh, fuck if I know. Some obscure wireless shit.
<whitequark>
basically if something packs your packets into a tunnel, and that tunnel spans over a path with MTU=1500...
<whitequark>
then if your packets have MTU=1500 and *something* won't fragment them just right, you'll experience exactly what you are
<whitequark>
e.g. my old broken ADSL behaved exactly that way
<whitequark>
and lowering MTU helped immediately
<whitequark>
hm, that would be MTU=1480 then. think I misremember it
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: anyway. keep it at 1420. no harm in having it lower
<whitequark>
except if you set it lower than 1350 or something, IPv6 breaks
<joelteon>
1420 blaze it up
<whitequark>
lemme guess, cannabis-related?
<joelteon>
naturally
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
god damnit
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: no luck.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
joelteon: you smoke?
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: :/
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ping is still excellent, bandwidth is there, … but even this irccloud took ages to load.
<trolling>
say amusing things for my entertainment
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the page turned blue immediately, looked like there was some framework to the page; but it didn't initialize and start loading the interface for ages. (Presumably, the initial HTML and the first CSS all loaded snappy, but then something being synchronously acquired by the JS stalled out? idk.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
this is bullshit. ಠ_ಠ
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-what @ trolling
<purr>
<elliottcable> If you mention CoffeeScript, I'm going to slap you with my tornado.
<trolling>
CoffeeScript is nice
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-what @ trolling
<purr>
<darkf> im not math you should know that
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yeah. for some packets, the time is upwards of 700ms. But that seems rare.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
265 packets transmitted, 263 packets received, 0.8% packet loss
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 19.174/31.394/1002.175/82.199 ms
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
complete bullshit ಠ_ಠ
<alexgordon>
you guys still talking?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: not about what we were earlier
<trolling>
HELLO ALEX GORDON
<alexgordon>
hi trolling
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: sounds consistent with a congested wireless network
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: well-played. i love ur butt lots.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I love how Hulu manages to push the *advertisements* through a broken connection to my computer, but can't send the actual *video*. ಠ_ಠ
<alexgordon>
don't love my butt ಠ_ಠ
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
sawwy
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: Come help me out? (=
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
reading through the spec-work I've done, looking for obviously-confusing phrasing and shit, and also refreshing myself on what I've already covered.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
then I'm going to try to add at least a little bit tonight, before I crash.
<alexgordon>
-spec @ alexgordon
<purr>
alexgordon: Paws' half-arsed Version 10 specification <http://ell.io/ihQzs>
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
maybe I can make this week a Paws week for myself, we'll see. (=
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<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: looks good, I mean you just need to finish it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yah, getting there
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but I mean, even *I* can see some of the ELLIOTTCABLE in it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
made a couple word-changes here and there already
<alexgordon>
you've tidied up the formatting, good
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: as long as things are well specified, then it's pretty easy to follow along
<alexgordon>
the problem is the gaps
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
reallllly need to translate it into HTML or something, where I can format it with CSS. It's getting tiring to manually select and fix bits.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and the gaps are? be explicit! :D
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
looking through, lessee …
<alexgordon>
everywhere where it says #incomplete for one
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I feel like I've covered combinations pretty thoroughly, here. That's exciting, this is much further along than I remember it being.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: remember I was making an implementation before
<alexgordon>
but I had to stop because you needed to catch up with the spec
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<whitequark>
okay my mill
<whitequark>
just ejaculated liquid acrylic all over my body
<whitequark>
this is painful
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… was it hot?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
#doublentendre
<jesusabdullah>
lol
<purr>
lol
<whitequark>
yes. yes it was
<whitequark>
I think it has solidified all over my hair
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hello, jesusabdullah
<whitequark>
I don't even have to make this shit up
<alexgordon>
this is a real life heisen bug
<alexgordon>
the bug only appears when I take the log statements out
<alexgordon>
LOL
<purr>
LOL
<whitequark>
timing
<alexgordon>
yeah
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
currently working on that. The old shitty advance() algorithm isn't documented for pristine executions.
<alexgordon>
yay installing the system
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: why're you installing ubuntu?
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: ugh i hate pristines
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
why
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
why's that?
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: there's no reason we can't have a lambda argument syntax lol
<purr>
lol
<glowcoil>
no reason why we can't have a notation for executions which, one-by-one, accept arguments
<glowcoil>
or
<glowcoil>
even less of a reason why we can't have one for executions which accept one argument
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: development
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: making a website
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not arguing about that, right now
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I thought you meant in a low-level, simple way
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not an overall design issue with the first-staging problem
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
like I said. I'm basically freezing the design, for the moment.
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<glowcoil>
whitequark: wait so is it common to have 5+ layers, at least for particular scales, in a CPU?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
absolutely
<glowcoil>
but not hundreds :p
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
from what little I know, much more than that
<glowcoil>
ok
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yes, the numbers I've seen tend to be in the high single digits, or low tens.
<whitequark>
glowcoil: stacked dies or scales?
<whitequark>
er layers
<glowcoil>
whitequark: ehm i'm afraid i don't know the difference
<whitequark>
layers can easily run in low dozens in modern cpus, especially with smaller nodes
<whitequark>
well
<whitequark>
layers is basically, you have one piece of silicon and you grow more and more layers of material with different properties on it
<whitequark>
think of it as a sandwich which was dipped in cheese: all glued together and monolithic
<whitequark>
the thing is, only the lowest layer actually has transistors
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
why the fuck is my Internet so bad
<whitequark>
everything on top is interconnect, interconnect, interconnect... it's a 2D tech
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so many ughghgshghs
<whitequark>
stacked dies is basically, several sandwiches on top of each other, standing on a bunch of cucumber slices
<whitequark>
(BGA balls)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
stacked dies is a Big Mac.
<whitequark>
well
<whitequark>
stacked dies is 2.5D essentially, you can actually have several layers of transistors
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(isn't that the sandwich with two layers? or is that the Denali or whatever they used to make?)
<whitequark>
at the end the structure is somewhat less monolithic and 100000x harder to make
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE INTERNET
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
HOW CAN I STILL CHAT IN HERE WHEN NO PAGE ON THE ENTIRE INTERNET WILL LOAD
<whitequark>
in modern cpus there can easily be 20, 30 layers of interconnect
<glowcoil>
whitequark: ahhhhh neat
<glowcoil>
(re layers)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Any connection that's open, seems to have no trouble. persistent connections like IRCcloud and Spotify's streams.
<whitequark>
I think sandisk's 16 stacked dies is the current world record
<whitequark>
and it's damned expensive
<whitequark>
a typical chip is 1 die.
<whitequark>
I think only memory ever has stacked dies
<glowcoil>
ok
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but the ACTUAL INTERNET won't load. Enough new connections seem to be dropping out, that no *actual page* on the entire web will successfully load.
<glowcoil>
just too hard to do?
<whitequark>
well, there's the gay packaging
<whitequark>
er
* whitequark
coughs
<whitequark>
PoP. where you stack not the bare dies but whole packages on top of each other
<whitequark>
used in current and prev gen of Samsung and Apple phones
<whitequark>
RAM stacked on top of CPU
<whitequark>
(too hard to do) well. too expensive.
<whitequark>
plus you have various weird effects and likely lower yield
<whitequark>
flash easily tolerates intermittent errors. cpu and ram, not so.
<glowcoil>
ok
<glowcoil>
oh yeah because flash is built to literally keep working until it's all errors
<glowcoil>
:p
<whitequark>
well no, not quite
<whitequark>
NAND flash is built to tolerate random errors, because they will appear
<whitequark>
chpis don't normally degrade
<whitequark>
NAND is like, an exception
<whitequark>
usually if your silicon degrades, you throw it out
<glowcoil>
ok
<whitequark>
every single transistor in that 16 billion transistor cpu must function 100% perfectly
<glowcoil>
it's crazy to me that error-correcting memory is so necessary
<glowcoil>
like the probability scales are what they are
<whitequark>
well, there are also cosmic rays
<glowcoil>
right yeah that's crazy
<whitequark>
they don't (usually) degrade RAM but flip bits
<whitequark>
you see, we recently made some calculations with @shipilev
<whitequark>
and modern RAM cell stores its value with something on order of 10⁶ electrons
<whitequark>
still sounds crazy?
<whitequark>
100k electrons is such an incredibly tiny amount
<glowcoil>
haha yeah doesn't sound crazy anymore
<glowcoil>
so is that for a *bit*?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
less, because of redundancy
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<whitequark>
for a bit
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
5/6th of a bit, or something, then?
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: huh?
<whitequark>
RAM is not redundant
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
isn't EEC RAM redundant?
<glowcoil>
haha
<whitequark>
well... depends on what do you mean by "bit"
<whitequark>
basically for the memory controller, ECC RAM is simply wider regular RAM
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<whitequark>
i.e. it doesn't store 16-bit words but rather 18-bit words
<whitequark>
RAM chips themselves couldn't give a rat's ass about ECC
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wet
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I thought the controller was a part of the chip
<whitequark>
no, it's on the northbridge
<whitequark>
integrated on the CPU die today
<whitequark>
DDR RAM only has a bus converter on it, to make it, well, DDR
<whitequark>
meaning it takes wide, slow data and makes it narrow, fast data
<whitequark>
fun fact: whatever number is there after PC- (like PC-3200 or someshit), the *real* frequency of the RAM chips is somewhere along 120MHz
<whitequark>
whereas those numbers around 2-3 GHz are the real frequency of the CPU core
<glowcoil>
i remember i was in church and my bishop is an EE and i knew plenty of programming but *no* hardware and we are in the young men's sunday school and someone says "micah knows everything about computers" and the bishop says "ok what is the front side bus" and i, remembering the i/o bus, say "it deals with input and output" and the bishop laughs and repeats what i said as if it is the most ludicrous thing to be uttered in history
<glowcoil>
that is the story
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: LOL
<purr>
LOL
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: that's so surreal
<whitequark>
that sounds like something out of an anime
<whitequark>
like that should've been the church of afro hair and the bishop should assemble humongous mechas in his garage
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wat
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
what whitequark said
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: wat.
<purr>
beep.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
what *is* the front-side bus?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
or the north bridge?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
#iknownothing
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: do you want it in depth or briefly?
<whitequark>
in depth: read ulrich drepper's "everything a programmer needs to know about memory"
<whitequark>
it's a ridiculously detailed manuscript. I even read a few things new for me
<whitequark>
it's also pretty readable
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
brief
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
'cuz spec'work'in'
<whitequark>
Ulrich has a talent for technical explanation
<whitequark>
ok
<whitequark>
FSB is CPU's main bus
<whitequark>
that bus connects it to northbridge. northbridge mediates access to RAM and peripherals
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: lolwat @twitter
<purr>
lolwat
<whitequark>
basically: CPU may want to perform I/O with peripherals
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I still can't wrap my head around ‘bus’
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
helps a lot of I stop, back up, replace the entire fucking sentence with ‘omnibus wire bundle,’ and then read it again
<whitequark>
so it goes through FSB to northbridge, then from northbridge to whatever's on PCI/PCI-e
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that omnibus wire bundle connects it to north bridge, which mediates access to RAM and peripherals
<whitequark>
yeah, "wire bundle" is quite correct
<whitequark>
so
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so you say mediates … meaning, FSB is *a chip*?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
er, sorry
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
<north|south>bridge*
<whitequark>
northbridge is a component
<whitequark>
it used to be a separate chip, about five to ten years ago
<whitequark>
now northbridge is integrated on CPU
<whitequark>
southbridge is going to be integrated in one or two iterations
<whitequark>
I think there are already Haswell SoCs, ie, system on chip
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
okay crap
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I really *do* want to know, but can't multitask this much right now. Later, I suppose.
<whitequark>
it doesn't really matter whether it is integrated or not. you basically can just take photonegatives for a separate chip and put it to the same die as CPU
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
back to trying to read my own spec. |=
<whitequark>
okay
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: the bjork lyrics?
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: have you heard that bjork song?!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
nope
<glowcoil>
big
<glowcoil>
TIME
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I don't bjork much
<glowcoil>
SENSUALITYYYY
<glowcoil>
sure i don't either, she's weird and kind of inconsistent
<glowcoil>
but that song
<glowcoil>
well, that whole album if i'm being honest
<glowcoil>
:p
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
fack
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh god old school Paws.js is so very very very ELLIOTTCABLE
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm gonna just throw this out there once, and let it be received how it will.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm sorry, everybody. For everything. Everything I've ever done to you, everything I've ever written, and everything I've ever said.
<cloudhead>
glowcoil: working on engine at the moment
<heimidal>
no, but wasn't expecting a public boycott over it :P
<glowcoil>
heimidal: was going to ask you, are google etc. doing *good* things or bad in this context?
<heimidal>
though I suppose Hampton does have a reputation for doing seemingly extreme things when others don't see a problem
<glowcoil>
cloudhead: neat, what techs?
<glowcoil>
heimidal: also wow, I am impressed at that boycott
<cloudhead>
glowcoil: mainly just opengl 3.3 at the moment
<cloudhead>
glowcoil: writing everything in C
<heimidal>
well, I said Apple and Google, I think. Apple's CEO is gay, so, there's that. Larry Page and Sergey Brin donated over $100k to defeat Prop 8.
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<cloudhead>
glowcoil: using glfw for context management
<whitequark>
I think Apple & Google are doing it for 2 things
<whitequark>
1) good PR 2) tapping a pool of potential employees which others voluntarily reject for no reason
<whitequark>
so
<whitequark>
basically profit
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
profit <3
<glowcoil>
heimidal: oh ok, that is happy to hear
<heimidal>
in Apple's case, I think Tim has a personal reason. :P
<whitequark>
makes sense
<glowcoil>
cloudhead: ok cool
<glowcoil>
cloudhead: definitely can absorb a lot of time, but still cool :p
<glowcoil>
cloudhead: iow that's not what you use in a 24h game jam :p
<cloudhead>
glowcoil: yea, plus learning graphics programming and linear algebra at the same time
<glowcoil>
cloudhead: oh yeah definitely
<glowcoil>
i need to learn linear algebra in a programming context
<cloudhead>
lol no, more like a 24 month jam
<purr>
lol
<glowcoil>
took the class this semester in a more pure context
<glowcoil>
cloudhead: hahaha right
<heimidal>
but, you're right, both companies benefit directly from it. I think what make speople mad isn't so much that Eich donated the money, it's that he has never once said he supports any aspect of life for the GLBT folks who work at Mozilla. if I were a gay man and had offers from Mozilla and Google/Apple, I'd certainly take into account the signal the board sent in Eich's appointment today.
<cloudhead>
glowcoil: what kind of stuff are you working on?
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'M STILL WORKING ON A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wait, that's a lie
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'M PLAYING A LOT OF POKEMON AND WATCHING SOME TELEVISION AND SOMETIMES GOING OUTSIDE
<alexgordon>
heimidal: hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: hi heimidal
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: hi cloudhead
<glowcoil>
gtg everyone
<glowcoil>
bye
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
trying to de-code elliott-code, and turn it into elliott-spec
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's a brainfuck
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: you will be missed.
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: <3
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: elliott-code is a brainfuck for you too?
<alexgordon>
man this explains so much
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the WORST thing,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the WORST WORST thing,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
is that this seems to affect web fonts unreasonably often.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
even worse than having a page sit white for ages, or having some synchronous JavaScript part freeze up and it sit with no content …
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
is to have all of the content load, but without any goddamn text. Then I have to try and reverse-engineer the content in my head from a series of seemingly random underlines and button backgrounds. ಠ_ಠ
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: hi
<alexgordon>
hi
<purr>
alexgordon: hi!
<purr>
<Nuck> TheLifelessOne: Just get a beagleboarduino
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: ughbhhhghhhh
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I DON'T UNDERSTAND ADVANCE()
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it works, as tested, in µpaws. I dug that code out of the coffin.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but translating it into spec is a fucking headache.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I am super-well-aware-omg-god-damnit, that it needs to be conceptually refactored.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but at the moment I just want to get it OUT OF THE WAY, even if it's a tightly-coupled mess.
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
testing 123
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
managed to string a couple Ethernet cords across my apartment. let's see if this works more reliably when it's wired.
<whitequark>
have I ever told you guys why do I have red hair?
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: i feel like with a sane design advance() will be less of a Thing
<whitequark>
err
<whitequark>
s,Rin,Ren,
<whitequark>
of course.
<glowcoil>
whitequark: is s,, a syntax somewhere? I see you use it
<whitequark>
sed
<glowcoil>
oh ok
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: the delimiter in sed/vim doesn't matter. If you really want to be psychotic, you can use spaces.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
:%s abc def
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
is perfectly legal. Just going to be a mess if you train your muscle-memory to that, and accidentally try to find/replace a multi-word phrase.
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: ok
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: i remembered sed being weird that way
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: hi!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
s/abc/def is pretty standard, although when doing URLs, I often use s|abc|def
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
all dose slashes <3
<glowcoil>
ya
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi, glowcoil.
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<glowcoil>
hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi glowcoil
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I really, really, really suck at code
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
sometimes in there the ‘result’ is an object, sometimes it's a node; I need both, sometimes, or neither, sometimes, and NONE of it is coherent.
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: currently writing a self balancing (AVL) tree
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: for CS
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: i empathize very strongly
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
a wat
<glowcoil>
like
<glowcoil>
binary tree
<glowcoil>
that balances itself every time you insert or delete
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
lolol
<purr>
lolol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
everything's about micro-services nowadays
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
four years later, everything's trying to be Paws
<glowcoil>
lololololol this is from fuckin
<glowcoil>
the 70s
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… that's a joke … don't eat me … I don't taste good.
<glowcoil>
if not earlier
<devyn>
glowcoil: omg I wrote an AVL implementation in Ruby a while back... very head scratching haha
<glowcoil>
hahahahahahaahahah
<glowcoil>
devyn: yeah haha
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
what? not AVL, talking about a tweet
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I don't even know what AVL is.
<glowcoil>
oh :c
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you forget that I know nothing
ELLIOTTCABLE is now known as jonsnow
<glowcoil>
:c:c
<glowcoil>
lololol
<glowcoil>
jonsnow: it's just a fuckin self balancing tree
jonsnow is now known as ELLIOTTCABLE
<glowcoil>
jus balancds itself
<glowcoil>
by itself
<glowcoil>
no probl
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but what' a tree
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
how does cod have leaves
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
they are made of cells, that can't even be code
<glowcoil>
o
<glowcoil>
/ \
<glowcoil>
o o
<glowcoil>
/ \ / \
<glowcoil>
o o o
<glowcoil>
FUCK it's not a graph theoretical tree
<glowcoil>
it's just a dag
<glowcoil>
i FUCKED up
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
is that leaves
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
does your dag have bark
<glowcoil>
lal lal lal
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
because that makes it a tree
<glowcoil>
BOTH TREES AND DAOGS (HAVE) BARK
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-topic elliott's buttwig
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: SyntaxError: Syntax is `s/expression/replacetext/gi`.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-topic s/.*/elliott's buttwig/
purr changed the topic of #elliottcable to: elliott's buttwig
<devyn>
-topic s/butt/cloud/
purr changed the topic of #elliottcable to: elliott's cloudwig
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yeah I don't really get what you're trying to do
<devyn>
I mean
<devyn>
on a very basic level
<devyn>
I see
<devyn>
but
<devyn>
this all seems way more complicated than it should be
<devyn>
you're just trying to specify self-contained routines with their own program counter and stack etc.