ChanServ changed the topic of #elliottcable to: drugs
<whitequark> give me a min in C++, and, um, someone who wrote more than zero lines of haskell, ie, not me, will show you an equivalent haskell code
<alexgord_> the basic list type of C++ is std::vector, or perhaps std::array
<whitequark> the basic collection type.
<alexgord_> whatever :P
<whitequark> the basic collection type in both C++ and haskell is whatever the user wants it to be
<whitequark> it's not like
<whitequark> javascript
<whitequark> where it HAS to be either array or has
<whitequark> *hash
<alexgord_> maybe, anyway my point was more that in C++ you can specialize it to death, also you can use pointers for types that are expensive to copy but assignment for types which are cheap (like ints)
<alexgord_> you can maybe do all that in rust, definitely not in haskell
<whitequark> in rust, yeah
<whitequark> haskell jumps over itself to distance you from anything remotely close to machine
<alexgord_> but it's interesting that in many languages you can't implement min() really efficiently over lots of types. it's such a simple function
<alexgord_> just shows how far we have to go
<alexgord_> in terms of designing languages
<whitequark> I don't know, not all languages have efficiency as its end goal
<whitequark> more specifically, CPU efficiency
<alexgord_> they should!
<whitequark> and RAM
<whitequark> why?
<whitequark> we have exponentially growing amounts of them
<alexgord_> because the intel people are working day and night to get us faster CPUs
<alexgord_> and we squander them on node.js and python scripts
<whitequark> nope, they're working to give us more CPUs
<alexgord_> better performing CPUs?
<whitequark> no, more CPUs at this point
<whitequark> CPU cores
<alexgord_> I'm sure they are getting faster
<whitequark> they're not
<alexgord_> doesn't the process shrinkage make them faster?
<whitequark> right now we bumped into yet another set of limits
<whitequark> for one, today's CPUs often can't run faster because of power budget. it is not physically possible to dissipate that much heat, therefore the CPU is forced to scale down
<whitequark> well, basically, most new silicon goes to caches
<alexgord_> well I'm counting bigger caches as "faster"
<whitequark> then: today's cores spend vast majority of their time waiting for memory
<alexgord_> less time spent going to RAM = faster
<alexgord_> yah
<alexgord_> which is kinda silly :P
<whitequark> and CPU efficiency of min() has no effect whatsoever on its observed performance if your language only uses "objects" and each "object" has a header of like 40 bytes
<alexgord_> well... avoiding copies is important, and avoiding cache misses
<alexgord_> the two are antagonistic though
<whitequark> it's not really silly, it's... lightspeed
<whitequark> a CPU core is tiny and closely coupled, it's basically an optimum for high clock frequency
<alexgord_> haskell avoids copies very well, by using linked lists everywhere. But it pays in terms of cache misses
<whitequark> well, yeah, linked lists are a cache disaster
<alexgord_> whitequark: it could be doing something else while it's waiting for RAM though
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<eligrey> 6 month battery life with bluetooth
<alexgord_> whitequark: glad we can agree on something LOL
<purr> LOL
<eligrey> imagine 1/4th the volume and surface area and ring sized
<eligrey> and only powering nfc
<eligrey> that could easily reach 4 months or more
<whitequark> Bluetooth LE*
<whitequark> has no relationship whatsoever to Bluetooth except its name
<eligrey> bluetooth le uses a lot more energy than nfc reading
<whitequark> that's a strong assumption I'm not sure about
<whitequark> it uses 2.4G instead of 10M... and higher frequencies usually let you have a transceiver with much less power
<whitequark> not to mention the fact that both nodes are powered means there's no power wasted in transmission
<whitequark> alexgord_: well like what
<eligrey> active bluetooth LE is at minimum 14mA
<eligrey> from the battery
<eligrey> not output from antenna
<whitequark> eligrey: that says... nothing
<whitequark> what's consumed energy per single transmission? for BLE and NFC
<whitequark> transaction*
<eligrey> i'm saying that tag actively broadcasts bluetooth le for 6 months
<eligrey> and nfc uses even less energy
<whitequark> source?
<eligrey> simple facts
<alexgord_> whitequark: I dunno really. maybe the answer is better prefetching. We certainly have enough memory bandwidth, it's latency that's the problem
<eligrey> ill google for nfc power usage
<whitequark> do you understand that your 14mA number is meaningless?
<alexgord_> (and languages not using silly data structures like linked lists)
<whitequark> 14mA for 1s is a shitton. 14mA for 100us is nothing.
<whitequark> alexgord_: well no shit
<eligrey> the wikipedia page says <15mA
<whitequark> I would say that the answer is FeRAM
<whitequark> because latency today is fundamentally capped by DRAM
<alexgord_> whitequark: oh and smaller code size (which C++ doesn't really help)
<eligrey> wow that setup time
<eligrey> ok nvm
* eligrey buys a bluetooth le ring instead
<whitequark> like, all the new DDRx busses mainly improve *bus* speed and utilize same old slow banks with wider and wider data busses
<whitequark> inside the module
<whitequark> cheating basically
<whitequark> eligrey: setup time?
<eligrey> im imaginging it having to be active for much longer if setup takes that long
<eligrey> anyways bluetooth LE is always on and the nfc reader in this isnt
<eligrey> bluetooth le always on in a ring gives you this much battery life https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1761670738/ring-shortcut-everything?ref=category
<eligrey> "1000 gestures"
<whitequark> well it's not "always on", that's the point of it
<eligrey> assuming 3 seconds per gesture thats less than an hour of total active use
<whitequark> look at how BLE actually works, it's only LE because it transmits data in tiny bursty packets AND does it only if it absolutely needs to
<whitequark> if it's about gestures, I'd expect the sensor circuitry to draw more energy
<eligrey> no im not trying to say my ring would have gestures
<eligrey> btw my smart fistbump rings only transmit data in bursts as well
<eligrey> the one-time burst at a fist bump
<eligrey> once per bump
<whitequark> 1000 bumps. at this usage pattern it is more likely to be limited by self-discharge of the battery
<whitequark> so... no more than 6 months, likely much less
<whitequark> *shrug*
<purr> ¯\(º_o)/¯
<whitequark> honestly, screw electronics. I think we only should actively move pointless physical things to electronic ones
<whitequark> like paperwork and shit
<eligrey> i'm not saying that i would get that ring gesture thing
<eligrey> that sounds really dumb and has terrible life
<whitequark> if it's remotely worthwhile, make sure it doesn't need a fucking battery
<eligrey> battery life*
<whitequark> like what the fuck, a caliper with a battery
<eligrey> myo bands on the other hand...
<whitequark> myo?
<whitequark> oh btw
<whitequark> if you have like an elastic silicone band
<whitequark> you can make it gain power from deformation
<whitequark> that's actually a decent amount of power it will gather just from you mildlessly fondling that
<whitequark> *mindlessly
<eligrey> in the future we'll all get skin cancer but our devices will never need charging due to the power and surveillance lasers that will shoot at you 24/7
<eligrey> ignore that part about surveillance lasers
<eligrey> idk what you could surveill with a laser
<whitequark> lasers?
<whitequark> how would you power things with a laser
<eligrey> the main point was power lasers
<whitequark> that's extremely complicated
<whitequark> use, like, inductive coupling
<eligrey> poes law pls
<whitequark> it's shit too though
<eligrey> whitequark is unable to detect sarcasm :S
<whitequark> I am
<whitequark> and guess why?
<whitequark> 1) because I can't hear your voice or see your facial expression via the internet
<whitequark> 2) because on internet, I can never know whether you're *that* dumb or being sarcastic. I err on the safe side.
<eligrey> oh that's just your fault for not watching my 24/7 facestream
<whitequark> link
<eligrey> unfortunately it's a pay service
<eligrey> but it is live!
<eligrey> whitequark: also you need to pay per frame, and pay before recieving the frame
<eligrey> lighting is also extra so by default all you get is a black image
<eligrey> whitequark: do i watch the anime first or the ova
<eligrey> of kill la kill
<whitequark> um, there's no ova
<whitequark> I think there was an episode 13.5 or someshit
<whitequark> probably fanservice as usual
<eligrey> Anime television series and Original video animation
<eligrey> ova ReleasedSeptember 3, 2014
<eligrey> http://www.crunchyroll.com/kill-la-kill lists them as PV
<whitequark> PV?
<eligrey> idk i always thought pv was promotional video
<whitequark> oh
<whitequark> so, fanservice
<whitequark> I guess watch anime first
<eligrey> ill start on episode 1 instead of the ova
<eligrey> k
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<purr> <alexgordon> ELLIOTTCABLE actually has only one sperm, but it is very effective
<devyn> whitequark: linked lists are not required in Haskell; they're just convenient because they're a very simple way of chaining items together indefinitely
<devyn> :p
<devyn> and so that's why they're the primary collection type
<devyn> same reason Lisp likes them, really
<devyn> elegant and simple
<devyn> oops
<devyn> I meant alexgord_
<devyn> not whitequark
<alexgord_> devyn: I disagree
<alexgord_> devyn: even if YOU don't use linked lists, any libraries you use WILL
<devyn> well, no, only when it doesn't really matter
<alexgord_> plus it takes an awful lot of work to use haskell without using linked lists
<devyn> well collection literals generally get constructed with whatever fromList function
<devyn> like Data.Set.fromList
<devyn> it's kinda silly to not use linked lists at all
<devyn> there's nothing wrong with them inherently; they're just slow for (a lot) of different applications
<devyn> and the 'indefinite' property of a linked list is kind of important; being able to have infinite lists is a nice feature
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<joelteon> i got dat 8 CPU swag
<devyn> FX-8120 bittttttch
<devyn> :3
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<purr> <alexgordon> if you're a wizard then bake me a cake
<eligrey> um whitequark what
<eligrey> he turned into a girl
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<whitequark> what?
<whitequark> who turned into a girl
<whitequark> did you just accidentally watch ranma1/2
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<purr> <alexgordon> I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION FOR YOU
<purr> <gq> (inb4 the answer is 'apply glitter glue, wait 5 minutes')
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<joelteon> I need a better domain name
* whitequark is watching my little pony on ireland tv
<whitequark> don't ask why
<whitequark> it all makes sense in the context
<joelteon> i'd never question watching MLP
<joelteon> classic show
<purr> <devyn> nerrrrrrrrrrl
<purr> lol
<purr> <sephr> so now you must live in constant fear of the possibility of sephr cursing your bits
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<purr> <Nuck> I'm exceptionally skilled at writing trashy things: I spent years of my life on deviantART
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<eligrey> ignore what i said whitequark
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> crush things with arnold schwarnaenggearar
<whitequark> okay ireland is really cool
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> whitequark: whyzzat
<whitequark> i dunno i just like it
<whitequark> I mean, feels like a place where people live to enjoy their life
<whitequark> in moscow people basically live to enjoy the suffering of others
<whitequark> schadenfreude!
<purr> <dskuza> DP ALL THE THINGS
* whitequark is in dublin right now
<purr> <Nuck> elliottcable: You train your dogs to bark at the sight of a buttplug or what?
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<purr> <alexgordon> these people have strange penises