ChanServ changed the topic of #elliottcable to: drugs
<devyn> [kaŋnam sɯtʰail] => kana stail (lojban has no ŋn or ɯ, and fu'ivla rules make things a bit strict)
<devyn> then kanastaili because it has to end in a vowel
<devyn> dansrkanastaili to combine it with the idea of “dance” (there's a class of fu'ivla that is formed this way)
<devyn> lojban {u} might possibly be pronounced ɯ
<devyn> I will check
<devyn> it's normally /u/
<devyn> no they don't list ɯ
<devyn> just [u]
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hi all
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Going to a Bitcoin drink-up tomorrow. A brewery is selling beer for Bitcoin for the evening. I'm sure it'll be geeky as all fuck.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> current status: pissed at Homebrew.
<devyn> ELLIOTTCABLE: awesome. we have a coffee shop with a permanently installed Bitcoin ATM here :D
<devyn> they match bitstamp's rate IIRC
<devyn> (but in canadian dollars)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> fucking uhghhrgh
<ELLIOTTCABLE> “Could not connect to reader 0”
<alexgordon> devyn: no fees?
<alexgordon> there's a btc atm in london, 8% fees
<alexgordon> erm, no thank you
<purr> <incomprehensibly> STRAWBERY AVALNGELHTA
<ELLIOTTCABLE> fuckin' fuck
<ELLIOTTCABLE> OS X won't recognize my Yubikey as a smart-card, somehow
<ELLIOTTCABLE> can't get GPShell to access it
<devyn> alexgordon: oh yeah the fees are pretty high
<devyn> it's pretty expensive and risky to run though
<devyn> so I understand it
<alexgordon> devyn: it is?
<alexgordon> don't see how
<devyn> at any point in time the value could drop so heavily that you don't end up covering your operating costs
<devyn> that's a big risk
<devyn> but I think they could probably lower the fees now
<devyn> with the value being so high
<alexgordon> devyn: er, what?
<alexgordon> devyn: isn't an ATM cash in, bitcoins out?
<devyn> either way lol
<purr> lol
<devyn> not just in
<devyn> you can withdraw too
<alexgordon> people want to sell bitcoins?
<devyn> yeah
<alexgordon> well ok, bitcoins in, cash out
<alexgordon> whatever
<alexgordon> WHAT operating costs?
<devyn> well they have to do trading for themselves too so that they can keep reserves of bitcoins and cash as needed
<devyn> that has fees
<devyn> they've gotta rent the space
<devyn> they've basically got the entire corner of the shop
<alexgordon> devyn: ??
<devyn> and they sit there
<alexgordon> wtf
<devyn> all the time
<devyn> lol
<alexgordon> that's bullshit lol
<alexgordon> you know ATMs in petrol stations?
<devyn> yeah, these don't work the same way
<alexgordon> do you think that the ATM operating is leasing that space?
<alexgordon> no, of course not
<alexgordon> the petrol station owner runs it
<devyn> yeah, but that's not what's going on here
<devyn> it's a separate company
<alexgordon> devyn: ?
<alexgordon> why do they have to lease space?
<devyn> they're leasing the space to have their ATM there
<alexgordon> yeah but why
<devyn> what do you mean why
<devyn> you want people to just give you free space and electricity to make money off?
<alexgordon> devyn: why doesn't the owner of the cafe or whatever buy their own ATM
<devyn> because they've partnered up with a local company to do it
<alexgordon> WHY
<devyn> ...because? it brings customers into the shop, and the owner likes bitcoin? it's entirely possible they don't have to pay for the space, I guess
<alexgordon> "they're poor because they keep setting money on fire" ... "why are they doing that?" ... "they're setting money on fire, what do you mean why?"
<alexgordon> devyn: I don't get why they would have to lease space
<devyn> well I don't know whether they do
<alexgordon> surely the owner of the space should be paying THEM for their services
<alexgordon> your argument is a bit like comcast saying netflix should pay for the bandwidth they use
<devyn> well... the company does get to make a shitton of money off the ATM though
<devyn> (potentially, assuming things don't crash)
<devyn> :p
<alexgordon> devyn: ok let's separate it, there's two things here: a physical ATM, and a service for running it
<alexgordon> obviously the owner of the space should buy the ATM
<devyn> and the guys who just sit there and help people use it
<alexgordon> then any fees should be distributed to the company who runs the service for it
<alexgordon> that's how normal ATMs work. bitcoin ATMs are no different
<devyn> that would make sense if the ATMs were a common thing, but they're not; the company can't just get this kind of contract with anyone
<devyn> not everyone would be willing to do it
<devyn> some people hate bitcoin, or don't understand it
<devyn> think it's illegal
<alexgordon> devyn: surely some people are willing to do it
<devyn> or whatever
<devyn> a coffee shop is a good place though, so it's valuable to the company to have it there
<alexgordon> not everybody is willing to run a brothel, yet brothels still exist
<devyn> it's a very busy shop too
<devyn> and they only have one of them
<alexgordon> devyn: anyway this whole thing is wacko
<alexgordon> apparently I'm the only person who sees it :P
<devyn> okay, if you say so alexgordon
eligrey has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<alexgordon> the coffee shops that have had ATMs have seen a LOT of people coming on because of it
<alexgordon> they would see even more people if the ATMs didn't have silly fees
<alexgordon> so clearly there is an incentive for coffee shops to *purchase* ATMs from the manufacturers
<alexgordon> and then for companies to spring up to provide a service of clearing the bitcoin transactions
<alexgordon> THAT is how it should work
<alexgordon> I cannot see how clearing a bitcoin transaction takes 8% either
eligrey has joined #elliottcable
<devyn> if you want, next time I go down there, I can ask them why their fees are so high
<devyn> they'll either give me an honest explanation or bullshit
<alexgordon> someone comes in and gives bitcoins to the machine. the machine quotes the current price, the user says OK, the clearing service puts a limit order on bitstamp, once the order is filled the clearing service instructs the machine to give the user their money
<alexgordon> total fees necessary: 0.6%
<alexgordon> devyn: seems like it's a mix of greed and sloppy engineering
<alexgordon> maybe I should start my own bitcoin ATM business LOL
<purr> LOL
<devyn> alexgordon: it's actually only 3%
<devyn> not nearly as bad
<alexgordon> devyn: still pretty bad
<devyn> the machines cost $18,500
<devyn> and they want to open more
<devyn> so
<devyn> it kinda makes sense
<alexgordon> no it doesn't :P
<alexgordon> why do the machines cost 18,500
<devyn> a lot of machinery, custom software, and they're kinda gigantic
<alexgordon> why are they gigantic?
<devyn> well they need somewhere to store all the bitcoins obvious
<devyn> ly
<alexgordon> -_-
<devyn> :p
<devyn> no but seriously I'm sure they have quite a bit of cash in them
<devyn> because people come in with... a lot
<devyn> I saw someone just casually dump like $2000 in
<devyn> in $50 bills
<alexgordon> this concept is ridiculous to me
<alexgordon> since when do ATMs allow you to make deposits?
<devyn> erm, they do here
<alexgordon> an atm should have one purpose: put in card, get cash
<alexgordon> devyn: ???
<alexgordon> devyn: you can put cash into an ATM?
<devyn> like not the third party ones, but the ones owned by individual banks? yes
<devyn> if it's your bank
<alexgordon> wow never seen that
<alexgordon> how does that work?
<devyn> they have envelopes
<devyn> you put cash in
<alexgordon> do you put it in the bit where the cash comes in?
<alexgordon> *out
<devyn> no, separate slot for the envelope
<devyn> and you just tell the machine how much it was. they know if you lied :p
<devyn> but the bitcoiniacs machine is a lot smarter
<devyn> and it does just feed in cash the same way it comes out really
<devyn> and reads it
<alexgordon> I still don't get why it's necessary
<alexgordon> at least here, ATMs output cash... if you want to deposit cash you have to stand in a queue at the bank :P
<alexgordon> or like, spend it, which is what I do :P
<devyn> I don't know whether they'd get a whole lot of money by people withdrawing
<devyn> but people always want to buy
<alexgordon> buy what?
<devyn> bitcoins
<alexgordon> yeah that's true
<alexgordon> well then they should focus on that
<devyn> well they do both so hah
<alexgordon> I'm just saying, it makes no sense doing both
<alexgordon> feels like they're trying to achieve too much
<alexgordon> devyn: there's another thing
<alexgordon> devyn: why in god's name do you need an ATM in a coffee shop anyway??
<devyn> the US has way more bitcoin services, whereas they don't really have much to compete with, so by being convenient for people to use for withdrawals *and* deposits
<devyn> they get good business
<devyn> well, that was where they struck a deal to use the space
<alexgordon> devyn: can't you just give your cash to the guy behind the counter, and get bitcoins as cashback?
<devyn> coffee shop owner loves bitcoin
<alexgordon> why does it need a robot when you have perfectly good humans
<devyn> well you'd still need all of the address QR scanning stuff
<devyn> the point isn't really so that you can buy coffee with your bitcoins
<devyn> lol
<purr> lol
<devyn> and since it's a chain, idk whether they'd be allowed to do it that way anyway
<devyn> but this way is fine apparently
<alexgordon> devyn: you'd still need a $200 android phone, yes
<alexgordon> as opposed to a $18500 bitcoin atm
<devyn> most people here don't have $200 android phones... more like $700 but okay
<devyn> and idk, guess they thought it was a neat idea
<devyn> and it worked out for them
<devyn> so
<devyn> yeah
<alexgordon> devyn: wait what?
<alexgordon> I'm talking about the coffee shop :P
<alexgordon> all the coffee shop needs is a $200 android phone
<alexgordon> devyn: yeah it's a neat idea but... no way am I paying over 1% in fees
<alexgordon> I thought bitcoin is supposed to be less fees?
<alexgordon> bitstamp is only like 0.6% fees
<alexgordon> or 0.4 is it
<alexgordon> that's the kind of level it should be
yorick has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<devyn> yeah, but $18 500 atm
<alexgordon> OR GUY BEHIND THE COUNTER WITH $200 ANDROID PHONE
<devyn> it's a chain. the entire chain would probably have to endorse bitcoin somehow that way, or at least they'd feel like they'd be associating it with their name
<devyn> it's a pretty big chain.
<devyn> but it's easier to get permission when it's clear that it's a separate business
<devyn> colocated
<devyn> to your customers
<alexgordon> devyn: are there no non-chain coffee shops?
<devyn> there are, certainly; this one just happens to be part of a chain
<alexgordon> ok but one that isn't part of a chain could sell them like that
<devyn> sure they could, but then they'd have to stay on top of all of the legal stuff with buying/selling bitcoins in addition to running the coffee shop
<devyn> when you're doing it at a physical well known location, you can't really just do it under the table, and I'm sure the government wants to tax it somehow if they aren't already
<alexgordon> devyn: lol I don't believe that
<purr> lol
<devyn> no? why not?
<alexgordon> government doesn't care whether you sell bitcoins over the counter, or by an ATM in your coffee shop
<alexgordon> it's all the same
<devyn> no, but I'm saying the responsibility falls differently
<devyn> this way Bitcoiniacs can handle all of that
<alexgordon> tell that do the judge :P
<devyn> coffee shop isn't responsible
<alexgordon> tell that do the judge :P
<devyn> I don't think the judge would find the coffee shop responsible.
<alexgordon> why not?
<alexgordon> hey you're a genius devyn, oscar pistorius can use this as his defence
<alexgordon> "Your honour, I think you'll find I shoot my girlfriend with a _gun_. Guns are machines, so I cannot be held responsible"
<devyn> well if the coffee shop isn't leasing the space to them (and you've convinced me that they probably aren't)
<devyn> then they aren't directly making money off of them
<devyn> and it's also not illegal currently
<devyn> so there's that
<devyn> :p
<alexgordon> devyn: so if a coffee shop had a "drug dealer corner" where drug dealers sold heroine, it would be ok?
<alexgordon> as long as the drug dealers weren't giving or receiving any money from the coffee shop?
<alexgordon> heroine?
<alexgordon> lol
<purr> lol
<devyn> I see what you mean haha
<alexgordon> when in doubt, assume that the police will hold EVERYBODY responsible
<devyn> the police? sure. judicial system? not necessarily. especially here in Canada, for whatever reason... our judges are pretty picky
<alexgordon> damn canadian judges
<alexgordon> it's why you're all addicted to weed
Sgeo_ has joined #elliottcable
<devyn> actually, funny story, that's because the police here (in Vancouver, specifically) feel that the laws are so strict that they actually distract them from the important crimes
<devyn> so they just kinda try not to notice
<devyn> transit police, on the other hand, you should run the fuck away from
<devyn> if you have weed
Sgeo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<devyn> because they're bored and really have nothing better to do
<devyn> :p
* alexgordon sleeps
<alexgordon> o7 devyn
alexgordon has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
<purr> <alexgordon> a python script, to generate a grammar, to pass to a compiler compiler, to generate the C++ source for a compiler, to be compiled by a C++ compiler
eligrey has quit [Quit: Leaving]
eligrey has joined #elliottcable
eligrey has quit [Quit: Leaving]
gozala has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
prophile has joined #elliottcable
<purr> <Nuck> I'd play 'Extreme Hobo Beatdown' but not 'Football'
sharkbot has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
sharkbot has joined #elliottcable
Sgeo_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
PragCypher has joined #elliottcable
PragCypher has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
PragCypher has joined #elliottcable
yorick has joined #elliottcable
<purr> * devyn haggasadandalcold
prophile has quit [Quit: The Game]
prophile has joined #elliottcable
joelteon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
joelteon_ has joined #elliottcable
<joelteon_> so
<joelteon_> DO just locked my account
PragCypher has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
gozala has joined #elliottcable
joelteon has joined #elliottcable
PragCypher has joined #elliottcable
joelteon_ has quit [Quit: Page closed]
<ELLIOTTCABLE> joelteon: hm? DO?
<joelteon> le digitalocean
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wassat
<ELLIOTTCABLE> i eat ur dik
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and also play pokemons
<ELLIOTTCABLE> LVL 12 SPURTLE! GO!
<ELLIOTTCABLE> been playing with SmartCard shit. And it won't work, and I'm grumpy.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> OS X won't recognize my YK NEO as anything except a plain HID device, keyboard,
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and the smart-card toolkits won't show it
<joelteon> yeah i've heard
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ehard what
<joelteon> I think you said those exact 3 lines yesterday
<ELLIOTTCABLE> really?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> well it's still making me grumpy
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so buh @ u
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ALL I WANT IN LIFE IS A SECURE HARDWARE DEVICE TO FULFIL THE OATH 2FA STANDARD
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ALSO, DIK
<joelteon> best of luck my friend
prophile has quit [Quit: The Game]
prophile has joined #elliottcable
prophile has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
eligrey has joined #elliottcable
eligrey has quit [Client Quit]
alexgordon has joined #elliottcable
eligrey has joined #elliottcable
redfox has joined #elliottcable
<purr> <joelteon> barack obama is dead?
redfox has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
demetra has joined #elliottcable
<whitequark> eligrey: is yubikey even a smartcard?
<alexgordon> hi whitequark
<whitequark> hi alexgordon
<whitequark> errr ELLIOTTCABLE ^ yubikey stuff
<whitequark> ah I see, yubikey neo is
<eligrey> whitequark: i use http://nfcring.com/ instead
<eligrey> my phone is the smartcard
<alexgordon> whitequark: it's strange, I can't figure out what this guy is saying
<eligrey> ring = key
<eligrey> the great thing about android phones unlike ios that all of you use is that i can emulate pretty much any usb or bluetooth peripheral
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: this is peculiar. perhaps it has same behavior as windows, where it ignores all but first part of a composite device for certain devices?
<eligrey> including bluetooth keyboard for smart card functionality
<whitequark> eligrey: do you *use* it, or *plan to*
<ELLIOTTCABLE> eligrey: that completely defeats the point.
<whitequark> because "accepting preorders" in 2014 is basically equivalent to "we have this idea"
<ELLIOTTCABLE> that's a static device. The software on your phone has access to your secret credientials.
<eligrey> eligrey: something i have (ring) + something i know (phone code)
<eligrey> i dont use the ring to unlock my phone
<ELLIOTTCABLE> With a smart-card, the only *software* vulnerable to attacks, that could ever give out your creds, is on the card itself.
<eligrey> it has 2 nfc tags on it
<whitequark> alexgordon: I'm pointing you to the part where he criticizes java-style oo
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Another layer of security.
<eligrey> inner tag (that you can't read without prying open my palm) is my keepass db keyfile
<ELLIOTTCABLE> no, ring isn't something-you-have-level, because it can be duplicated. That makes it something-you-know.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Point of something-you-have is to make it difficult / impossible to duplicate.
<eligrey> (no the keyfile isnt the only thing i use for the db, i also have a password)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Meaning Software Isn't Good Enough™ for something-you-have layer.
<eligrey> ELLIOTTCABLE: to duplicate my ring you need to pull it off my hand
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: perhaps with perfect obfuscation that would be possible
<alexgordon> whitequark: does java style OO actually work like that though?
<whitequark> eligrey: wrong.
* ELLIOTTCABLE shrugs
<purr> ¯\(º_o)/¯
<ELLIOTTCABLE> you sleep. you shower. your finger starts to itch.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and of course, rubber-hose etceteras.
<whitequark> eligrey: can be read with a directional antenna from 10m
<eligrey> its waterproof
<ELLIOTTCABLE> whitequark: Didn't say it was *perfect* obfuscation.
<alexgordon> whitequark: he criticises it for forming two APIs, but all functions in Java are virtual, no?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> It's simply better than a wide-open NFC tag.
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: nonono, "perfect obfuscation" is a thing
<whitequark> a mathy one
<eligrey> cyanide pill rubber hose cryptanalysis blocker
<whitequark> which could replace smartcard as a physical token which can't be reverse-engineered
<ELLIOTTCABLE> anyway.
<whitequark> with a piece of software which can provably not be reverse-engineered
<ELLIOTTCABLE> My Yubikey is superior to your NFC tag. #oneupt
<ELLIOTTCABLE> point is for the OATH generation to occur on-card.
<eligrey> also if you try to brush past me in public to get nfc tag contents you only can read the public tag (the one facing out with my fingers)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> OATH secrets never leave the card.
<eligrey> you have to put your reader inside my palm to read my private tag
<whitequark> eligrey: there's no need to brush past you.
<whitequark> there is only a need to point an antenna at you.
<eligrey> trust me these are some of the worst nfc tags ever if you want to do long range with your special nfc gun thingy
<eligrey> they dont work at all with phones that have nfc antennae that are too large
<whitequark> so?
<whitequark> it doesn't necessarily translate to behavior with directional antenna.
<eligrey> also not to mention how will you read my private tag if theres conductive metal and another nfc tag in the way?
<whitequark> unless proven otherwise, I'm not trusting a *byte* to NFC something which can be read without confirmation
<eligrey> the public tag is in the way of the private tag if you want to get at it
<whitequark> well, how do you think you have wifi despite room having walls of rebar?
<whitequark> reflection.
<whitequark> also, there is of course a way to discern two tags aimed at the same reader
<whitequark> it's just usually not done because it would be needlessly confusing
<eligrey> ok you got my private tag
<eligrey> now what?
<eligrey> as i said everything is 2 factor
<eligrey> you need to do some rubber hose cryptanalysis on my noggin
<whitequark> look over your shoulder?
<eligrey> and i already stated a defense: suicide
<whitequark> I hope you aren't actually carrying poisonous chemicals with you in a fragile container at all times
<eligrey> ELLIOTTCABLE: in the future fist bumps are how people exchange public keys
<eligrey> i know this because someone from the future told me
demetra has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<eligrey> everyone is wearing nfc ring v2 that also include nfc readers as well as tags
<eligrey> and everyone puts their public key on the public tag
<whitequark> and what power source?
<whitequark> (also, that doesn't solve the problem of revocation)
<eligrey> nfc doesn't need much so one of those glucose fuel cells
<eligrey> or simply solar
<whitequark> nfc reader is quite a powerful device
<eligrey> then why is it always transmitting on my phone?
<eligrey> nfc readers only work when they are always on
<whitequark> because your phone has a shitton of spare power, enough that current drawn by nfc reader polling air every second or so is insignificant
<eligrey> or manually turned on before you use it
<eligrey> you do realize for the scenario i described the rings won't need always on though
<whitequark> the ring doesn't have volume to have a battery of sensible size inside, or surface to acquire power
<eligrey> it could only read when it detects pressure on the top
<eligrey> (e.g. when 2 people fistbump nfc rings)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> two-factor isn't an excuse against obvious vulnerabilities in one of the factors.
<whitequark> so now you need a pressure or acceleration sensor
<whitequark> which also draws power.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Two-factor with an obviously-vulernable factor, is just needlessly-complex and user-unfriendly one-factor auth.
* whitequark prefers dead trees for anything semi-nonvolatile. always.
<eligrey> then ill put a rope battery inside
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Point of two-factor is for both to be “perfect” from your point of view, so that when one inevitably gets compromised (in any real-life attack), you have a time-window to recognize that compromise and take extra measures.
<eligrey> heck the whole ring can be a rope battery with 2 nfc tags and a pressure sensor
<eligrey> whitequark: also why accerlation sensor
<eligrey> that seems completely unnecessary
<whitequark> eligrey: kinda easier than pressure
<whitequark> pressure, you need something over the entire ring
<eligrey> no i said pressure only on the top
<whitequark> acceleration, you need it to detect spikes and it can be placed anywhere
<eligrey> so just on top of the nfc tag
<whitequark> meh
<eligrey> no need to detect acceleration spikes it spikes every time i make a step and move my arms
<whitequark> not that much. fistbump in your case would provide quite a bit of acceleration
<eligrey> whitequark: im talking like resistive touch screen kind of pressure sensor
<whitequark> because rings are very hard
<eligrey> the ring is hard
<eligrey> the sensor on top not so much
<eligrey> good thing the ring isnt the sensor
* ELLIOTTCABLE sighs
<whitequark> yes, rely on mechanics.
<eligrey> what if i want to do a discreet fist bump?
<eligrey> very low acceleration
<whitequark> same thing can be said about any kind of battery: you need it to last a long time, and the more mAh/mm^3 you have, the shorter the life is
<eligrey> all you need is 5 things: 1 lithium rope battery shaped like a ring, 1 resistive touch screen component for enabling 1 nfc reader, 2 nfc tags
<whitequark> and since it has not a lot of charge at all, you'd have to recharge it all the time...
<whitequark> yes. lithium battery fails within, estimated, one month to one year.
<eligrey> 4* things
<eligrey> then you recharge it by placing it in the dock that it came with
<eligrey> recharge once a week or whatever
<whitequark> no, not "discharges". "fails".
<eligrey> ok buy a new one then
<whitequark> a new ring?
<eligrey> yeah
<whitequark> fuck that future
<whitequark> it's like I don't buy enough useless shit already.
<eligrey> ok you keep your current phone for the next 5 years
<whitequark> something as important as my credentials for everything must last forever
<whitequark> I fully intend to.
<whitequark> I also despise and don't use smartphones.
<eligrey> um?
<eligrey> i dont understand what you mean
<eligrey> the reader wont last forever
<eligrey> the nfc tags themselves will always keep the data
<whitequark> the thing I have right now is at about 1995 level of evolution. I'll gladly keep it until it fails
<eligrey> nfc tags are nonvolatile
<eligrey> it only requires energy to read them
<whitequark> well, they're fused with the ring and the reader
<eligrey> yeah eyah
<eligrey> yeah*
<eligrey> then make sure to reset the tags before you get a new ring
<eligrey> whitequark: what if i made it solar powered + make the ring out of an ultracapacitor substrate?
<whitequark> ultracapacitor substrate is not going to have good structural properties
<eligrey> there you go now you have a power source that will last at least 10-20 years but needs a charge more often
<whitequark> solar batteries... well, we can assume they don't degrade with this usage pattern
<whitequark> at least they degrade less than the NAND memory inside the tag
<whitequark> the issue is whether you can get enough power
<eligrey> ok i'll put a warning on the box: don't use this ring for anything that requires high tensile strength that you would find in a metal ring
<eligrey> most people use rings for... wearing
<eligrey> that doesn't require too much strength
<whitequark> yeah, why do you think they're made from metal?
<eligrey> whitequark: solar batteries?
<eligrey> these arent lithium batteries
<eligrey> ultracaps have very long lifespans
<eligrey> even normal tantalum caps
<whitequark> rings. they don't need to withstand significant instantaneous stress often, but rather insignificant stress over a long time
<whitequark> I'm very much skeptical that you can get an ultracap shaped that way, too
<whitequark> now
<eligrey> i'm going to resume this discussion in 10 years
<eligrey> if you are wearing any technology on your fingers or neck i win
<whitequark> you need to at least ensure that the input power is higher than output power
<whitequark> er
<whitequark> is higher than leakage of the cap
<eligrey> also ok an ultracap might not be able to be shaped like that
<eligrey> use a tantalum cap then
<whitequark> so let's do some math
<eligrey> i know for sure those can be shaped
<eligrey> and afaik they feel pretty stiff
<eligrey> strong enough for a ring
<whitequark> that's the enclosure of a cap, not the cap itself
<eligrey> the orange stuff?
<eligrey> i didnt know that
<whitequark> yeah, plastic
<whitequark> tantalum caps have electrolyte inside, gotta keep them airtight
<eligrey> well ok you win
<whitequark> anyway, let's talk about solar
<eligrey> still they are solid state
<whitequark> iirc the most you can get from a battery is ~30% efficiency
<eligrey> with a good enough airtight seal and shield layer it should be fine
<whitequark> now you will usually have at most 50% of a ring illuminated
<eligrey> ok since these are very low surface area i'll be using really expensive solar panels
<whitequark> likely 30% if you count the incidence angle
<whitequark> that doesn't matter, I'm already assuming ideal
<eligrey> whatever $100 can get you in high efficiency solar panels
<eligrey> per ring
<whitequark> so... a ring is what, 16mm diameter and 5mm wide?
<eligrey> also for this discussion we should sue the alpha size ring
* eligrey looks up size
<whitequark> I don't see a diagram there
<whitequark> alpha size?
<whitequark> you mean smallest?
<eligrey> alpha is wider
<whitequark> by the way, manufacturing a circular solar battery in a variety of sizes is a logistic nightmare you don't want on your ass
<eligrey> theres a pc
<eligrey> pic*
<whitequark> it doesn't have scale
<whitequark> worthless
<eligrey> yeah :/
<whitequark> okay so... 75mm^2 of surface, give or take
<eligrey> i'll be getting the cheapest >30% one off https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/PVeff%28rev140225%29a.jpg
<eligrey> well the cheapest one that i can get enough for half of a ring for $100
PragCypher has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<eligrey> the inside half of the ring doesn't need panels since it won't be getting any sunlight inside your palm
<whitequark> don't forget those figures are for ideal circumstances
<eligrey> of course
<whitequark> i.e. bright sunlight directly to the panel
<whitequark> in your case, it's falling at a rather sharp angle, *and* it's not bright sunlight in most cases at all
<eligrey> ok how about we go back to the beginning
<eligrey> glucose fuel cell
<eligrey> also a requirement that the ring pricks into your finger or something
<eligrey> ignore the high possibility of infection for this discussion
<whitequark> you just basically described tech in kill la kill
<whitequark> I hope your suggestion does not also include lesbian incest threesomes or something
<eligrey> is it worth seeing?
<eligrey> not enough ratings on ANN for me to decide
<whitequark> well, it is done by an enormously skilled group
<whitequark> I thoroughly enjoyed seeing how they can switch themes in a bat of an eyelid and how they avoid or subvert pretty much all existing stamps
<whitequark> and the animation is top-notch
<eligrey> > an outfit made entirely of Life Fibers that provides its wearer with superhuman abilities in exchange for their blood
<whitequark> but the story is *weird*
<eligrey> not sure if reading nfc tags would be considered superhuman
<whitequark> not weird as in strange
<eligrey> especially given the extremely low power usage
<whitequark> weird as in those drugs should be fucking banned
<whitequark> because I'm thoroughly unconvinced that a sober, sane person can conceive such... things
<eligrey> i'll check out the first episode on netflix||crunchroll||hulu
<eligrey> if its not on any of those i probably wont see it
<whitequark> do note that it radically changes after 13th episode
<eligrey> crunchy*
<whitequark> like it's basically entirely another genre after that
<whitequark> otherwise yeah you're welcome
* whitequark is off
<eligrey> btw ELLIOTTCABLE what do you think about the moto X feature that keeps your phone unlocked when actively connected to a pair bluetooth device?
<eligrey> when it comes to security
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wat
<ELLIOTTCABLE> that sounds horrible, and makes no sense
<ELLIOTTCABLE> idk don't use motorola
<ELLIOTTCABLE> nexus 5 atm
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but so, so goddamn sick of android
<eligrey> while my bluetooth headphones are on the phone stays unlocked
<eligrey> its great
<joelteon> ok
<eligrey> if i want to lock it all i have to do is press power on my headset
<eligrey> (mdr-1rbt)
<joelteon> seriously it's a full day's worth of work just to get this dev environment set up
<joelteon> this is fucking ridiculous
<joelteon> i am this angry
<eligrey> ELLIOTTCABLE: they are soooo comfortable
<eligrey> pretty much stopped buying headphones after i got these
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wat o_O
<eligrey> i'm saying you should check them out
<devyn> fuck king spambots
maxdante has joined #elliottcable
maxdante has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ughghghg
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I've forgotten everything I once knew about Ruby
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hi, devyn
<joelteon> ELLIOTTCABLE: I do ruby at work!
* ELLIOTTCABLE pats joelteon
<ELLIOTTCABLE> problem at the moment isn't with Ruby itself, though (although I curse parse.y with every ounce of my being)
<purr> <audy> and she thinks the Terminal is for talking about boobs and what-not
_whitelogger has joined #elliottcable
makelena has joined #elliottcable
makelena has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
sharkbot has quit [*.net *.split]
whitequark has joined #elliottcable
alexgordon has quit [*.net *.split]
ec_ has quit [*.net *.split]
ELLIOTTCABLE has quit [*.net *.split]
nuck has quit [*.net *.split]
sharkbot has joined #elliottcable
ec_ has joined #elliottcable
nuck has joined #elliottcable
ELLIOTTCABLE has joined #elliottcable
ec_ has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
ec has joined #elliottcable
<joelteon> so I'm trying out linode today
<joelteon> you know
<joelteon> it's pretty nice
eligrey_ has joined #elliottcable
eligrey has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
alexgord_ has joined #elliottcable
<alexgord_> so I was thinking
<alexgord_> C++ is really the only language you can implement an efficient min() function in
<alexgord_> * for all types
<whitequark> alexgord_: how so?
<alexgord_> alexgord_: the combination of templates and its low level semantics
<whitequark> C++ isn't lowlevel, and you get equivalent power from typeclasses
<alexgord_> if C++ isn't lowlevel I don't know what is
<whitequark> like
<whitequark> you get equivalent power in rust
<whitequark> and likely in haskell
<alexgord_> whitequark: nah because haskell loves linked lists, so it'll never be efficient
<whitequark> wat?