<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: awesome. we have a coffee shop with a permanently installed Bitcoin ATM here :D
<devyn>
they match bitstamp's rate IIRC
<devyn>
(but in canadian dollars)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
fucking uhghhrgh
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“Could not connect to reader 0”
<alexgordon>
devyn: no fees?
<alexgordon>
there's a btc atm in london, 8% fees
<alexgordon>
erm, no thank you
<purr>
<incomprehensibly> STRAWBERY AVALNGELHTA
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
fuckin' fuck
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
OS X won't recognize my Yubikey as a smart-card, somehow
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
can't get GPShell to access it
<devyn>
alexgordon: oh yeah the fees are pretty high
<devyn>
it's pretty expensive and risky to run though
<devyn>
so I understand it
<alexgordon>
devyn: it is?
<alexgordon>
don't see how
<devyn>
at any point in time the value could drop so heavily that you don't end up covering your operating costs
<devyn>
that's a big risk
<devyn>
but I think they could probably lower the fees now
<devyn>
with the value being so high
<alexgordon>
devyn: er, what?
<alexgordon>
devyn: isn't an ATM cash in, bitcoins out?
<devyn>
either way lol
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
not just in
<devyn>
you can withdraw too
<alexgordon>
people want to sell bitcoins?
<devyn>
yeah
<alexgordon>
well ok, bitcoins in, cash out
<alexgordon>
whatever
<alexgordon>
WHAT operating costs?
<devyn>
well they have to do trading for themselves too so that they can keep reserves of bitcoins and cash as needed
<devyn>
that has fees
<devyn>
they've gotta rent the space
<devyn>
they've basically got the entire corner of the shop
<alexgordon>
devyn: ??
<devyn>
and they sit there
<alexgordon>
wtf
<devyn>
all the time
<devyn>
lol
<alexgordon>
that's bullshit lol
<alexgordon>
you know ATMs in petrol stations?
<devyn>
yeah, these don't work the same way
<alexgordon>
do you think that the ATM operating is leasing that space?
<alexgordon>
no, of course not
<alexgordon>
the petrol station owner runs it
<devyn>
yeah, but that's not what's going on here
<devyn>
it's a separate company
<alexgordon>
devyn: ?
<alexgordon>
why do they have to lease space?
<devyn>
they're leasing the space to have their ATM there
<alexgordon>
yeah but why
<devyn>
what do you mean why
<devyn>
you want people to just give you free space and electricity to make money off?
<alexgordon>
devyn: why doesn't the owner of the cafe or whatever buy their own ATM
<devyn>
because they've partnered up with a local company to do it
<alexgordon>
WHY
<devyn>
...because? it brings customers into the shop, and the owner likes bitcoin? it's entirely possible they don't have to pay for the space, I guess
<alexgordon>
"they're poor because they keep setting money on fire" ... "why are they doing that?" ... "they're setting money on fire, what do you mean why?"
<alexgordon>
devyn: I don't get why they would have to lease space
<devyn>
well I don't know whether they do
<alexgordon>
surely the owner of the space should be paying THEM for their services
<alexgordon>
your argument is a bit like comcast saying netflix should pay for the bandwidth they use
<devyn>
well... the company does get to make a shitton of money off the ATM though
<devyn>
(potentially, assuming things don't crash)
<devyn>
:p
<alexgordon>
devyn: ok let's separate it, there's two things here: a physical ATM, and a service for running it
<alexgordon>
obviously the owner of the space should buy the ATM
<devyn>
and the guys who just sit there and help people use it
<alexgordon>
then any fees should be distributed to the company who runs the service for it
<alexgordon>
that's how normal ATMs work. bitcoin ATMs are no different
<devyn>
that would make sense if the ATMs were a common thing, but they're not; the company can't just get this kind of contract with anyone
<devyn>
not everyone would be willing to do it
<devyn>
some people hate bitcoin, or don't understand it
<devyn>
think it's illegal
<alexgordon>
devyn: surely some people are willing to do it
<devyn>
or whatever
<devyn>
a coffee shop is a good place though, so it's valuable to the company to have it there
<alexgordon>
not everybody is willing to run a brothel, yet brothels still exist
<devyn>
it's a very busy shop too
<devyn>
and they only have one of them
<alexgordon>
devyn: anyway this whole thing is wacko
<alexgordon>
apparently I'm the only person who sees it :P
<devyn>
okay, if you say so alexgordon
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<alexgordon>
the coffee shops that have had ATMs have seen a LOT of people coming on because of it
<alexgordon>
they would see even more people if the ATMs didn't have silly fees
<alexgordon>
so clearly there is an incentive for coffee shops to *purchase* ATMs from the manufacturers
<alexgordon>
and then for companies to spring up to provide a service of clearing the bitcoin transactions
<alexgordon>
THAT is how it should work
<alexgordon>
I cannot see how clearing a bitcoin transaction takes 8% either
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<devyn>
if you want, next time I go down there, I can ask them why their fees are so high
<devyn>
they'll either give me an honest explanation or bullshit
<alexgordon>
someone comes in and gives bitcoins to the machine. the machine quotes the current price, the user says OK, the clearing service puts a limit order on bitstamp, once the order is filled the clearing service instructs the machine to give the user their money
<alexgordon>
total fees necessary: 0.6%
<alexgordon>
devyn: seems like it's a mix of greed and sloppy engineering
<alexgordon>
maybe I should start my own bitcoin ATM business LOL
<purr>
LOL
<devyn>
alexgordon: it's actually only 3%
<devyn>
not nearly as bad
<alexgordon>
devyn: still pretty bad
<devyn>
the machines cost $18,500
<devyn>
and they want to open more
<devyn>
so
<devyn>
it kinda makes sense
<alexgordon>
no it doesn't :P
<alexgordon>
why do the machines cost 18,500
<devyn>
a lot of machinery, custom software, and they're kinda gigantic
<alexgordon>
why are they gigantic?
<devyn>
well they need somewhere to store all the bitcoins obvious
<devyn>
ly
<alexgordon>
-_-
<devyn>
:p
<devyn>
no but seriously I'm sure they have quite a bit of cash in them
<devyn>
because people come in with... a lot
<devyn>
I saw someone just casually dump like $2000 in
<devyn>
in $50 bills
<alexgordon>
this concept is ridiculous to me
<alexgordon>
since when do ATMs allow you to make deposits?
<devyn>
erm, they do here
<alexgordon>
an atm should have one purpose: put in card, get cash
<alexgordon>
devyn: ???
<alexgordon>
devyn: you can put cash into an ATM?
<devyn>
like not the third party ones, but the ones owned by individual banks? yes
<devyn>
if it's your bank
<alexgordon>
wow never seen that
<alexgordon>
how does that work?
<devyn>
they have envelopes
<devyn>
you put cash in
<alexgordon>
do you put it in the bit where the cash comes in?
<alexgordon>
*out
<devyn>
no, separate slot for the envelope
<devyn>
and you just tell the machine how much it was. they know if you lied :p
<devyn>
but the bitcoiniacs machine is a lot smarter
<devyn>
and it does just feed in cash the same way it comes out really
<devyn>
and reads it
<alexgordon>
I still don't get why it's necessary
<alexgordon>
at least here, ATMs output cash... if you want to deposit cash you have to stand in a queue at the bank :P
<alexgordon>
or like, spend it, which is what I do :P
<devyn>
I don't know whether they'd get a whole lot of money by people withdrawing
<devyn>
but people always want to buy
<alexgordon>
buy what?
<devyn>
bitcoins
<alexgordon>
yeah that's true
<alexgordon>
well then they should focus on that
<devyn>
well they do both so hah
<alexgordon>
I'm just saying, it makes no sense doing both
<alexgordon>
feels like they're trying to achieve too much
<alexgordon>
devyn: there's another thing
<alexgordon>
devyn: why in god's name do you need an ATM in a coffee shop anyway??
<devyn>
the US has way more bitcoin services, whereas they don't really have much to compete with, so by being convenient for people to use for withdrawals *and* deposits
<devyn>
they get good business
<devyn>
well, that was where they struck a deal to use the space
<alexgordon>
devyn: can't you just give your cash to the guy behind the counter, and get bitcoins as cashback?
<devyn>
coffee shop owner loves bitcoin
<alexgordon>
why does it need a robot when you have perfectly good humans
<devyn>
well you'd still need all of the address QR scanning stuff
<devyn>
the point isn't really so that you can buy coffee with your bitcoins
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
and since it's a chain, idk whether they'd be allowed to do it that way anyway
<devyn>
but this way is fine apparently
<alexgordon>
devyn: you'd still need a $200 android phone, yes
<alexgordon>
as opposed to a $18500 bitcoin atm
<devyn>
most people here don't have $200 android phones... more like $700 but okay
<devyn>
and idk, guess they thought it was a neat idea
<devyn>
and it worked out for them
<devyn>
so
<devyn>
yeah
<alexgordon>
devyn: wait what?
<alexgordon>
I'm talking about the coffee shop :P
<alexgordon>
all the coffee shop needs is a $200 android phone
<alexgordon>
devyn: yeah it's a neat idea but... no way am I paying over 1% in fees
<alexgordon>
I thought bitcoin is supposed to be less fees?
<alexgordon>
bitstamp is only like 0.6% fees
<alexgordon>
or 0.4 is it
<alexgordon>
that's the kind of level it should be
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<devyn>
yeah, but $18 500 atm
<alexgordon>
OR GUY BEHIND THE COUNTER WITH $200 ANDROID PHONE
<devyn>
it's a chain. the entire chain would probably have to endorse bitcoin somehow that way, or at least they'd feel like they'd be associating it with their name
<devyn>
it's a pretty big chain.
<devyn>
but it's easier to get permission when it's clear that it's a separate business
<devyn>
colocated
<devyn>
to your customers
<alexgordon>
devyn: are there no non-chain coffee shops?
<devyn>
there are, certainly; this one just happens to be part of a chain
<alexgordon>
ok but one that isn't part of a chain could sell them like that
<devyn>
sure they could, but then they'd have to stay on top of all of the legal stuff with buying/selling bitcoins in addition to running the coffee shop
<devyn>
when you're doing it at a physical well known location, you can't really just do it under the table, and I'm sure the government wants to tax it somehow if they aren't already
<alexgordon>
devyn: lol I don't believe that
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
no? why not?
<alexgordon>
government doesn't care whether you sell bitcoins over the counter, or by an ATM in your coffee shop
<alexgordon>
it's all the same
<devyn>
no, but I'm saying the responsibility falls differently
<devyn>
this way Bitcoiniacs can handle all of that
<alexgordon>
tell that do the judge :P
<devyn>
coffee shop isn't responsible
<alexgordon>
tell that do the judge :P
<devyn>
I don't think the judge would find the coffee shop responsible.
<alexgordon>
why not?
<alexgordon>
hey you're a genius devyn, oscar pistorius can use this as his defence
<alexgordon>
"Your honour, I think you'll find I shoot my girlfriend with a _gun_. Guns are machines, so I cannot be held responsible"
<devyn>
well if the coffee shop isn't leasing the space to them (and you've convinced me that they probably aren't)
<devyn>
then they aren't directly making money off of them
<devyn>
and it's also not illegal currently
<devyn>
so there's that
<devyn>
:p
<alexgordon>
devyn: so if a coffee shop had a "drug dealer corner" where drug dealers sold heroine, it would be ok?
<alexgordon>
as long as the drug dealers weren't giving or receiving any money from the coffee shop?
<alexgordon>
heroine?
<alexgordon>
lol
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
I see what you mean haha
<alexgordon>
when in doubt, assume that the police will hold EVERYBODY responsible
<devyn>
the police? sure. judicial system? not necessarily. especially here in Canada, for whatever reason... our judges are pretty picky
<alexgordon>
damn canadian judges
<alexgordon>
it's why you're all addicted to weed
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<devyn>
actually, funny story, that's because the police here (in Vancouver, specifically) feel that the laws are so strict that they actually distract them from the important crimes
<devyn>
so they just kinda try not to notice
<devyn>
transit police, on the other hand, you should run the fuck away from
<devyn>
if you have weed
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<devyn>
because they're bored and really have nothing better to do
<purr>
<alexgordon> a python script, to generate a grammar, to pass to a compiler compiler, to generate the C++ source for a compiler, to be compiled by a C++ compiler
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<alexgordon>
whitequark: it's strange, I can't figure out what this guy is saying
<eligrey>
ring = key
<eligrey>
the great thing about android phones unlike ios that all of you use is that i can emulate pretty much any usb or bluetooth peripheral
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: this is peculiar. perhaps it has same behavior as windows, where it ignores all but first part of a composite device for certain devices?
<eligrey>
including bluetooth keyboard for smart card functionality
<whitequark>
eligrey: do you *use* it, or *plan to*
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
eligrey: that completely defeats the point.
<whitequark>
because "accepting preorders" in 2014 is basically equivalent to "we have this idea"
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that's a static device. The software on your phone has access to your secret credientials.
<eligrey>
eligrey: something i have (ring) + something i know (phone code)
<eligrey>
i dont use the ring to unlock my phone
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
With a smart-card, the only *software* vulnerable to attacks, that could ever give out your creds, is on the card itself.
<eligrey>
it has 2 nfc tags on it
<whitequark>
alexgordon: I'm pointing you to the part where he criticizes java-style oo
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Another layer of security.
<eligrey>
inner tag (that you can't read without prying open my palm) is my keepass db keyfile
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
no, ring isn't something-you-have-level, because it can be duplicated. That makes it something-you-know.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Point of something-you-have is to make it difficult / impossible to duplicate.
<eligrey>
(no the keyfile isnt the only thing i use for the db, i also have a password)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Meaning Software Isn't Good Enough™ for something-you-have layer.
<eligrey>
ELLIOTTCABLE: to duplicate my ring you need to pull it off my hand
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: perhaps with perfect obfuscation that would be possible
<alexgordon>
whitequark: does java style OO actually work like that though?
<whitequark>
eligrey: wrong.
* ELLIOTTCABLE
shrugs
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you sleep. you shower. your finger starts to itch.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and of course, rubber-hose etceteras.
<whitequark>
eligrey: can be read with a directional antenna from 10m
<eligrey>
its waterproof
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: Didn't say it was *perfect* obfuscation.
<alexgordon>
whitequark: he criticises it for forming two APIs, but all functions in Java are virtual, no?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
It's simply better than a wide-open NFC tag.
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: nonono, "perfect obfuscation" is a thing
<whitequark>
which could replace smartcard as a physical token which can't be reverse-engineered
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
anyway.
<whitequark>
with a piece of software which can provably not be reverse-engineered
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
My Yubikey is superior to your NFC tag. #oneupt
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
point is for the OATH generation to occur on-card.
<eligrey>
also if you try to brush past me in public to get nfc tag contents you only can read the public tag (the one facing out with my fingers)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
OATH secrets never leave the card.
<eligrey>
you have to put your reader inside my palm to read my private tag
<whitequark>
eligrey: there's no need to brush past you.
<whitequark>
there is only a need to point an antenna at you.
<eligrey>
trust me these are some of the worst nfc tags ever if you want to do long range with your special nfc gun thingy
<eligrey>
they dont work at all with phones that have nfc antennae that are too large
<whitequark>
so?
<whitequark>
it doesn't necessarily translate to behavior with directional antenna.
<eligrey>
also not to mention how will you read my private tag if theres conductive metal and another nfc tag in the way?
<whitequark>
unless proven otherwise, I'm not trusting a *byte* to NFC something which can be read without confirmation
<eligrey>
the public tag is in the way of the private tag if you want to get at it
<whitequark>
well, how do you think you have wifi despite room having walls of rebar?
<whitequark>
reflection.
<whitequark>
also, there is of course a way to discern two tags aimed at the same reader
<whitequark>
it's just usually not done because it would be needlessly confusing
<eligrey>
ok you got my private tag
<eligrey>
now what?
<eligrey>
as i said everything is 2 factor
<eligrey>
you need to do some rubber hose cryptanalysis on my noggin
<whitequark>
look over your shoulder?
<eligrey>
and i already stated a defense: suicide
<whitequark>
I hope you aren't actually carrying poisonous chemicals with you in a fragile container at all times
<eligrey>
ELLIOTTCABLE: in the future fist bumps are how people exchange public keys
<eligrey>
i know this because someone from the future told me
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<eligrey>
everyone is wearing nfc ring v2 that also include nfc readers as well as tags
<eligrey>
and everyone puts their public key on the public tag
<whitequark>
and what power source?
<whitequark>
(also, that doesn't solve the problem of revocation)
<eligrey>
nfc doesn't need much so one of those glucose fuel cells
<eligrey>
or simply solar
<whitequark>
nfc reader is quite a powerful device
<eligrey>
then why is it always transmitting on my phone?
<eligrey>
nfc readers only work when they are always on
<whitequark>
because your phone has a shitton of spare power, enough that current drawn by nfc reader polling air every second or so is insignificant
<eligrey>
or manually turned on before you use it
<eligrey>
you do realize for the scenario i described the rings won't need always on though
<whitequark>
the ring doesn't have volume to have a battery of sensible size inside, or surface to acquire power
<eligrey>
it could only read when it detects pressure on the top
<eligrey>
(e.g. when 2 people fistbump nfc rings)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
two-factor isn't an excuse against obvious vulnerabilities in one of the factors.
<whitequark>
so now you need a pressure or acceleration sensor
<whitequark>
which also draws power.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Two-factor with an obviously-vulernable factor, is just needlessly-complex and user-unfriendly one-factor auth.
* whitequark
prefers dead trees for anything semi-nonvolatile. always.
<eligrey>
then ill put a rope battery inside
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Point of two-factor is for both to be “perfect” from your point of view, so that when one inevitably gets compromised (in any real-life attack), you have a time-window to recognize that compromise and take extra measures.
<eligrey>
heck the whole ring can be a rope battery with 2 nfc tags and a pressure sensor
<eligrey>
whitequark: also why accerlation sensor
<eligrey>
that seems completely unnecessary
<whitequark>
eligrey: kinda easier than pressure
<whitequark>
pressure, you need something over the entire ring
<eligrey>
no i said pressure only on the top
<whitequark>
acceleration, you need it to detect spikes and it can be placed anywhere
<eligrey>
so just on top of the nfc tag
<whitequark>
meh
<eligrey>
no need to detect acceleration spikes it spikes every time i make a step and move my arms
<whitequark>
not that much. fistbump in your case would provide quite a bit of acceleration
<eligrey>
whitequark: im talking like resistive touch screen kind of pressure sensor
<whitequark>
because rings are very hard
<eligrey>
the ring is hard
<eligrey>
the sensor on top not so much
<eligrey>
good thing the ring isnt the sensor
* ELLIOTTCABLE
sighs
<whitequark>
yes, rely on mechanics.
<eligrey>
what if i want to do a discreet fist bump?
<eligrey>
very low acceleration
<whitequark>
same thing can be said about any kind of battery: you need it to last a long time, and the more mAh/mm^3 you have, the shorter the life is
<eligrey>
all you need is 5 things: 1 lithium rope battery shaped like a ring, 1 resistive touch screen component for enabling 1 nfc reader, 2 nfc tags
<whitequark>
and since it has not a lot of charge at all, you'd have to recharge it all the time...
<whitequark>
yes. lithium battery fails within, estimated, one month to one year.
<eligrey>
4* things
<eligrey>
then you recharge it by placing it in the dock that it came with
<eligrey>
recharge once a week or whatever
<whitequark>
no, not "discharges". "fails".
<eligrey>
ok buy a new one then
<whitequark>
a new ring?
<eligrey>
yeah
<whitequark>
fuck that future
<whitequark>
it's like I don't buy enough useless shit already.
<eligrey>
ok you keep your current phone for the next 5 years
<whitequark>
something as important as my credentials for everything must last forever
<whitequark>
I fully intend to.
<whitequark>
I also despise and don't use smartphones.
<eligrey>
um?
<eligrey>
i dont understand what you mean
<eligrey>
the reader wont last forever
<eligrey>
the nfc tags themselves will always keep the data
<whitequark>
the thing I have right now is at about 1995 level of evolution. I'll gladly keep it until it fails
<eligrey>
nfc tags are nonvolatile
<eligrey>
it only requires energy to read them
<whitequark>
well, they're fused with the ring and the reader
<eligrey>
yeah eyah
<eligrey>
yeah*
<eligrey>
then make sure to reset the tags before you get a new ring
<eligrey>
whitequark: what if i made it solar powered + make the ring out of an ultracapacitor substrate?
<whitequark>
ultracapacitor substrate is not going to have good structural properties
<eligrey>
there you go now you have a power source that will last at least 10-20 years but needs a charge more often
<whitequark>
solar batteries... well, we can assume they don't degrade with this usage pattern
<whitequark>
at least they degrade less than the NAND memory inside the tag
<whitequark>
the issue is whether you can get enough power
<eligrey>
ok i'll put a warning on the box: don't use this ring for anything that requires high tensile strength that you would find in a metal ring
<eligrey>
most people use rings for... wearing
<eligrey>
that doesn't require too much strength
<whitequark>
yeah, why do you think they're made from metal?
<eligrey>
whitequark: solar batteries?
<eligrey>
these arent lithium batteries
<eligrey>
ultracaps have very long lifespans
<eligrey>
even normal tantalum caps
<whitequark>
rings. they don't need to withstand significant instantaneous stress often, but rather insignificant stress over a long time
<whitequark>
I'm very much skeptical that you can get an ultracap shaped that way, too
<whitequark>
now
<eligrey>
i'm going to resume this discussion in 10 years
<eligrey>
if you are wearing any technology on your fingers or neck i win
<whitequark>
you need to at least ensure that the input power is higher than output power
<whitequark>
er
<whitequark>
is higher than leakage of the cap
<eligrey>
also ok an ultracap might not be able to be shaped like that
<eligrey>
use a tantalum cap then
<whitequark>
so let's do some math
<eligrey>
i know for sure those can be shaped
<eligrey>
and afaik they feel pretty stiff
<eligrey>
strong enough for a ring
<whitequark>
that's the enclosure of a cap, not the cap itself
<eligrey>
the orange stuff?
<eligrey>
i didnt know that
<whitequark>
yeah, plastic
<whitequark>
tantalum caps have electrolyte inside, gotta keep them airtight
<eligrey>
well ok you win
<whitequark>
anyway, let's talk about solar
<eligrey>
still they are solid state
<whitequark>
iirc the most you can get from a battery is ~30% efficiency
<eligrey>
with a good enough airtight seal and shield layer it should be fine
<whitequark>
now you will usually have at most 50% of a ring illuminated
<eligrey>
ok since these are very low surface area i'll be using really expensive solar panels
<whitequark>
likely 30% if you count the incidence angle
<whitequark>
that doesn't matter, I'm already assuming ideal
<eligrey>
whatever $100 can get you in high efficiency solar panels
<eligrey>
per ring
<whitequark>
so... a ring is what, 16mm diameter and 5mm wide?
<eligrey>
not enough ratings on ANN for me to decide
<whitequark>
well, it is done by an enormously skilled group
<whitequark>
I thoroughly enjoyed seeing how they can switch themes in a bat of an eyelid and how they avoid or subvert pretty much all existing stamps
<whitequark>
and the animation is top-notch
<eligrey>
> an outfit made entirely of Life Fibers that provides its wearer with superhuman abilities in exchange for their blood
<whitequark>
but the story is *weird*
<eligrey>
not sure if reading nfc tags would be considered superhuman
<whitequark>
not weird as in strange
<eligrey>
especially given the extremely low power usage
<whitequark>
weird as in those drugs should be fucking banned
<whitequark>
because I'm thoroughly unconvinced that a sober, sane person can conceive such... things
<eligrey>
i'll check out the first episode on netflix||crunchroll||hulu
<eligrey>
if its not on any of those i probably wont see it
<whitequark>
do note that it radically changes after 13th episode
<eligrey>
crunchy*
<whitequark>
like it's basically entirely another genre after that
<whitequark>
otherwise yeah you're welcome
* whitequark
is off
<eligrey>
btw ELLIOTTCABLE what do you think about the moto X feature that keeps your phone unlocked when actively connected to a pair bluetooth device?
<eligrey>
when it comes to security
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wat
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that sounds horrible, and makes no sense
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
idk don't use motorola
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
nexus 5 atm
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but so, so goddamn sick of android
<eligrey>
while my bluetooth headphones are on the phone stays unlocked
<eligrey>
its great
<joelteon>
ok
<eligrey>
if i want to lock it all i have to do is press power on my headset
<eligrey>
(mdr-1rbt)
<joelteon>
seriously it's a full day's worth of work just to get this dev environment set up
<joelteon>
this is fucking ridiculous
<joelteon>
i am this angry
<eligrey>
ELLIOTTCABLE: they are soooo comfortable
<eligrey>
pretty much stopped buying headphones after i got these
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wat o_O
<eligrey>
i'm saying you should check them out
<devyn>
fuck king spambots
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ughghghg
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I've forgotten everything I once knew about Ruby
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi, devyn
<joelteon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I do ruby at work!
* ELLIOTTCABLE
pats joelteon
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
problem at the moment isn't with Ruby itself, though (although I curse parse.y with every ounce of my being)
<purr>
<audy> and she thinks the Terminal is for talking about boobs and what-not
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<joelteon>
so I'm trying out linode today
<joelteon>
you know
<joelteon>
it's pretty nice
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<alexgord_>
so I was thinking
<alexgord_>
C++ is really the only language you can implement an efficient min() function in
<alexgord_>
* for all types
<whitequark>
alexgord_: how so?
<alexgord_>
alexgord_: the combination of templates and its low level semantics
<whitequark>
C++ isn't lowlevel, and you get equivalent power from typeclasses
<alexgord_>
if C++ isn't lowlevel I don't know what is
<whitequark>
like
<whitequark>
you get equivalent power in rust
<whitequark>
and likely in haskell
<alexgord_>
whitequark: nah because haskell loves linked lists, so it'll never be efficient