<DocScrutinizer05>
stuff like tomtom is better in that regard since it more relies on map and less on GPS fix
<DocScrutinizer05>
IOW it forces car on the existing streets much more
<DocScrutinizer05>
which sometimes results in you virtually driving on the main street for a km or two while actually you left the road and are driving a dirt road for quite some time
<DocScrutinizer05>
often that even happens when the dirt road has a completely different heading than the main street
<Oksana>
Well, about accuracy: that's why AGPS and such are introduced, to use cellular towers and not just GPS for precise positioning. But, cellular towers are even less likely than GPS to get signal to the moon ;-) So, hoping that Gemalto will provide updates for a long time :-) And that when updates stop, the source code and compiler-signer will be released (to owners of Gemalto devices, at...
<Oksana>
...least; even if they have to include some NDA to protect their algorithms)
<ds2>
AFAIK, AGPS is to let you use cheaper/crapier hardware and still get a quick lock. or do you mean DGPS?
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<jonwil>
AGPS is basically a way to download various bits of GPS data over the much faster data network (i.e. the cell towers send information to the modem/GPS hardware which then uses it to get the relavent information from some internet data source)
<ds2>
and from a quick 20second read, that is CDMA specific
<Oksana>
Not DGPS, either...
<ds2>
CDMA has to do reasonably accurate ranging with the user or it falls apart
<ds2>
so that can be used to provide the equiv of DGPS like data to correct GPS
<ds2>
I am curious if ODFM (the LTE stuff) has to do the ranging
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<jonwil>
DGPS relies on base stations at fixed locations that broadcast the difference between where they are and where the GPS satellites tell them they are
<jonwil>
IIRC some airports are trying DGPS or something similar to improve accuracy for aircraft movements
<ds2>
you can do the same thing with cell towers
<DocScrutinizer05>
with DGPS somebody achieved an accuracy of ~10cm with GTA02 GPS iirc
<ds2>
stock GTA02 antenna?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I still recall the photo of a cliff or sth somewhere in the north sea, with a chalk crosshair painted on it and the GTA02 sitting in the center. Or was that N900 already?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
then the diagrams with the fixes tagged, and the statistics of max error and average erro etc
<ds2>
while we are on the topic - anyone know if WAAS replaces DGPS?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, I forgot what's WAAS
<DocScrutinizer05>
I just could toss in a ...:
<DocScrutinizer05>
~gsm-agps
<infobot>
it has been said that rrlp is the Radio Resource LCS (Location Service) Protocol as specified first in GSM TS 04.31, or http://security.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/RRLP
<ds2>
another bit of info sent out from the birds
<ds2>
wide area augmentation system, (from memory)
<DocScrutinizer05>
aaaah, the geostationary SVs that send the global ephem/alm data
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think the SVs are already up since ages, but only few GPS chipsets (say to) use them
<ds2>
hmm? all the ones I looked at uses them
<ds2>
Garmin stuff, the modules from Maestro or whatever their name dejour is
<DocScrutinizer05>
mhm, then I simply didn't notice
<ds2>
they appear as a very as a very large SV number
<ds2>
like 77 or 99 I think
<DocScrutinizer05>
yup
<DocScrutinizer05>
seen that
<ds2>
i can't seem to figure out if that replaces DGPS or supplements or ???
<DocScrutinizer05>
it augments/improves AGPS
<DocScrutinizer05>
aiui
<DocScrutinizer05>
I dunno if it supplies DGPS-alike data
<ds2>
so WAAS birds are not spreadspectrum?
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly not really, since true high-precision DGPS works on comparing phase of carrier signals
<DocScrutinizer05>
I dunno if they are spread spectrum, but for sure they have no doppler shift, and they are basically "known" as there's only very few of them
<ds2>
ah
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<DocScrutinizer05>
so locking on their carrier is way simpler than for fast moving always changing low orbit SVs
<ds2>
one of the problems to getting a lock is to figure out the spread sequence of a SV
<ds2>
it isn't so much fast moving as it is knowing which spread sequence to use
<DocScrutinizer05>
not that one
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, but for WAAS SV you need to check only 4 or sth like that, not 32
<ds2>
wonder if it is also stronger signal
<DocScrutinizer05>
~gps
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't know (or forgot) details
<Oksana>
What does "Coarse accuracy" positioning do when I disable both GPS and Network positioning? It places me consistently on equator, in one point, and considers it final. :-/
<Oksana>
I am thinking that it should have placed me into the point where the cellular tower (to which I am connected) is located, at least. It would have been, like, 10km accuracy, but it's better than placing me onto equator. :-/
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>As of October 2007 there were 38 WRSs: twenty in the contiguous United States (CONUS), seven in Alaska, one in Hawaii, one in Puerto Rico, five in Mexico, and four in Canada.<< seems I'm largely bored by WAAS since it considers Europe as area-non-supported
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<ds2>
IIRC, WAAS was related to a FAA thing.
<DocScrutinizer05>
HEHE! >>As precision increases and error approaches zero, the navigation paradox states that there is an increased collision risk, as the likelihood of two craft occupying the same space on the shortest distance line between two navigational points has increased.<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
probably airplanes should offset navigational points by (<own-plane-ID> modulo 16) * 100m
<DocScrutinizer05>
or s/ 100m / 100m * min( 1, (<distance-to-airport> / 100km))
<DocScrutinizer05>
or s/ 100m / 100m * min( 1, (<distance-to-airport> / 5km))
<ds2>
or just modulate their path by a random sequence
<ds2>
maybe multipled by a factor relating to plane size
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<Oksana>
I wonder what AT commands are available for controlling GPS/GLONASS part of modem chip: "GNSS dedicated AT commands"
<DocScrutinizer05>
err, read the AT manual!
<DocScrutinizer05>
google for PHS8-P_AT_Command_Set_V02.003.pdf
<DocScrutinizer05>
also see pls8-e_atc_v01000_tcm216-155309.pdf
<Oksana>
Thank you :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yw :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
>> With AT+CREG you can also check the current status and acti- vate an unsolicited result code which appears whenever the status of the network registration changes (e.g. when the UE is powered up, or when the network cell changes).<< Some of you will love this ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
"unsolicited result code" is AT spec speak for "message"
<DocScrutinizer05>
or "signal"
<DocScrutinizer05>
or "alarm" or "notification", whatever you call it
<Oksana>
:-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
i.e. it means the modem is sending a string with a certain content to the APE system
<DocScrutinizer05>
the "...when the network cell changes" might be interesting for some usecases
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<DocScrutinizer05>
service class: 4 = Fax (only for compatibility reasons, not supported by PLS8-E) --- :-/ The Good Ole FAX, boooohooohoooo :´(
<DocScrutinizer05>
even worse, no SMS????
<DocScrutinizer05>
what the.... ¼¹\¢↓€²²¢¼]↓¼¢¢
<DocScrutinizer05>
actaully seems PLS8 doesn't support SMS
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-/
<DocScrutinizer05>
probably this is a service provider you need to register to via the LTE layer
<DocScrutinizer05>
however I wonder how you're supposed to do this in a UMTS or GSM network
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<DocScrutinizer05>
indeed the PHS8 +CMGC (send SMS) command is not listed in PLS8 manual
<DocScrutinizer05>
probably you're supposed to do text messages via a web portal when you're using a device with LTE :-/
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically just like you have to do for MMS already
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>For environments without IMS a transition solution was specified. This is called SMS over SGs (previously called the misleading name: SMS over CS). It is a hybrid approach that allows the transmission of native SMS from CS infrastructure over the LTE radio network. SMS over SGs was specified as part of Rel 8. SMS over SGs provides SMS service for mobiles in LTE and since it requires also CS domain infrastructure for the SMS
<DocScrutinizer05>
transmission, it is intended to be a transition solution. << FSCK!
<Oksana>
Ok, maybe it needs to be added to the modem-comparison table? 'plain SMS' support, Fax support, MMS support? Or does it mean that you have either LTE of "plain SMS and Fax"?
<DocScrutinizer05>
LTE specifies IMS (I gather that actually means IM) and some means to allow SMS to travel via that IMS service both directions to and from LTE UE. But it seems that Gemalto sacrificed the SMS support when on UMTS or GSM for that
<DocScrutinizer05>
I wouldn't minfd when PLS8 would not support SMS *while on LTE*
<DocScrutinizer05>
but sure like hell I want to do normal plain SMS when on a UMTS network
<DocScrutinizer05>
IMS is clearly not handled by modem, it's an IP based service
<Oksana>
Ok, so Gemalto could not fit "plain SMS" functionality into the same module-chip as LTE? Not enough space?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, I think they don't see any need to include SMS in a module that's meant for LTE, since LTE doesn't know os such ancient crap like SMS
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/os /of /
<DocScrutinizer05>
or maybe they simply forgot to include it into manual
<DocScrutinizer05>
we'll need to test AT+CMGC=? on PLS8 to know for sure
<Oksana>
WiMAX, HSPA+ and LTE taken together can be called 4G technologies. PLS8 has LTE and HSPA+, but it does not have WiMax?
<DocScrutinizer05>
((could not fit)) kinda like "they didn't know how to fit SMS resp AT+CMGC into LTE". They either had to come up with an error message that only appears when trying to send an SMS while in LTE network, and then they also need to decide what to do with the SMS, whether to store it for weeks and send it a year later when you happen to log in to UMTS/GSM, Or they simply scrapped the whole SMS function which was the much easier way
<DocScrutinizer05>
huh?
<Oksana>
Sorry for trying to get everything at once ;-) Fax&WiMax in the same phone is likely non-existent...
<DocScrutinizer05>
why would it have WiMAX?
<DocScrutinizer05>
WiMAX is basically dead
<DocScrutinizer05>
and your quote doesn't mean "a device needs to support LTE *and* HSPA+ *and* WiMAX to call itself a 4G device"
<DocScrutinizer05>
it means "LTE and WiMAX and HSPA+ all are technoligies that are commonly known as '4G' "
<DocScrutinizer05>
so PHS8 is a 4G modem and PLS8 is a 4G modem, though neither of both knows WiMAX
<DocScrutinizer05>
((FAX)) I think you'll hardly find a single phone nowadays that can do FAX
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually P*S8 are great in that they still support CS-data (aka point-to-point data)
<DocScrutinizer05>
most phones don't support that either nowadays
<Oksana>
Because ITU said so? Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE_(telecommunication) If I understand correctly, LTE-Advanced can be called 4G by itself, and WiMax-Advanced can be called 4G by itself. But LTE-or-WiMax non-Advanced are not "true 4G"?
<DocScrutinizer05>
CSD is great for encrypted voice calls
<Oksana>
PLS8 is no Fax. I am asking about PXS8 :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
FAX on mobile is dead
<Oksana>
A pity, if so ;-/
<Oksana>
What does TTY support in PXS8 mean? ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
no idea
<DocScrutinizer05>
possibly CSD
<DocScrutinizer05>
I haven't opened the PXS8 manual ATM
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically CSD is a *very* long RS232 cable
<Oksana>
Ok, TTY is A text-telephone device (TTY) used by individuals who may have deafness, other hearing difficulties, or speech disabilities.
<DocScrutinizer05>
certified up to 9600 or (with THCLSD err HSCSD) even up to iirc 28000 baud
<Oksana>
What does S stand for? Is PH8 an option?
<DocScrutinizer05>
for TTY you basically conect a TTY to both ends of that cable
<DocScrutinizer05>
PH8 is mini-PC card
<DocScrutinizer05>
or whatever
<DocScrutinizer05>
some plugable card for laptops etc
<DocScrutinizer05>
mini-PCI?
<DocScrutinizer05>
mini-PCIE?
<Oksana>
Ok, we have what we have, plain SMS will 'soon' be forgotten, and Fax is already out-of-support. Nobody decided to push everything into one modem, yet, because it would be too complicated, expensive, huge, and most people would not use it.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
plain SMS will live on for quite a few years still, since many phones out there don't know better than SMS, and many phones never heard of LTE, and LTE is coming with a compatibility mode for bridging into SMS world from LTE IMS service. But when you are "roaming" on UMTS or GSM networks with a LTE phone, you got zilch, no SMS and no IMS (unless you use a bridge to LTE IMS via UMTS data service and internet)
<DocScrutinizer05>
tbh I fail to see how PLS8 for cert for UMTS/GSM when not supporting SMS on those RATs
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/for/got/
<DocScrutinizer05>
this was actually a mech typo :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
left-shift-one
<DocScrutinizer05>
note that PLS8 manual has a number of flaws expected to be mere documentation quirks
<DocScrutinizer05>
iirc missing suspend mode for USB was another one
<DocScrutinizer05>
also note "V01.000 Preliminary"
<DocScrutinizer05>
Gemalto themselves doesn't offer the PLS8 manual at all yet
<DocScrutinizer05>
HMMMMM
<DocScrutinizer05>
in theory you could send SMS same way
<Oksana>
When are they planning to release PLS8 manual? Is it possible to ask them directly whether they support SMS messages for PLS8 on GSM network without a bridge? Because people will switch into GSM-only mode (to save energy, for example) and expect SMS to work.
<DocScrutinizer05>
seems PLS8 manual suggests that cell broadcast comes in as Unstructured Supplementary Service Data
<DocScrutinizer05>
I will ask them
<DocScrutinizer05>
*4711*<number of addressee>*"text of SMS"#
<Oksana>
Thanks! :-) Interesting workaround, will look it up.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't know if any provider plans to support this
<DocScrutinizer05>
inbound SMS would come in as URC with a USSD payload then, I guess
<DocScrutinizer05>
I.E. +CUSD: <ussdStatus>[, <SMS-payload>[, <ussdDCS>]]
<ShadowJK>
DocScrutinizer05; afaik they're all on different frequencies, so it's a hw thing as well
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer05>
GLONASS amd GPS are not that much different, only a few humble MHz
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's why stuff like Gemalto modules can upgrade to GLONASS by simple firmware update
<DocScrutinizer05>
Galileo however is prolly a tad more complex and all new design, so hw compatibility might nbe an issue
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<Oksana>
By the way, when Galileo was born, it was given different, from GPS, frequencies precisely so that it would be possible to jam one without jamming the other, in event of war. Yet, when Glonass (1976-1982-1995) and GPS (1973-1989-1994) were launched during "the Cold War", there were no such political shouts.