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<Oksana>
Quuiiieeeettttt...... Ok, Goldelico has three projects going on at the same time: Neo900 has its own excellent website with diagrams and news, Pyra has its own website with Specs but difficult to finds news-details, GTA04A5 has some pages but not much details (FFC 6 pins for keyboard is nice; is it possible to get a camera module onto it, though?)
<wpwrak>
busy crawling through standards, and - for a change - the kernel here. quiet = either passed out, lazy, or very busy :)
<Oksana>
I go with very busy :-) What are exactly two "aux" LEDs, side-facing RGB? 6 for keyboard back-light, I remember. One "privacy" goes to the place where red-LED for camera used to be? What are "aux"?
<wpwrak>
"aux" are for some additional fun effects joerg has in mind. as far as i remember, they should go on the sides of the device, near the corners, and shine through the spacer frame.
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: btw, this means that we'll either need a transparent spacer frame or add "windows" if it's inherently non-transparent, right ?
<wpwrak>
Oksana: the dead links go to jump pages that aren't populated yet. they're Joerg's babies :)
<Oksana>
Still, strange they point to Goldelico website, and not Neo900 website. But you can deal with it later, when the pages get populated.
<wpwrak>
here's a sort of wiki at gdc and joerg wanted to use that (instead of installing something new on neo900.org, or writing bare HTML). not sure if there are any longer-term plans for setting up anything of that sort on neo900.org
<wpwrak>
i guess it would make sense to do so
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<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: (transparent or "windows") obviosly
<DocScrutinizer05>
((would make sense)) ask dos1
<DocScrutinizer05>
I ask for own forum and wiki since ages
<DocScrutinizer05>
the wiki at gdc is quite non-mediawiki'sh anyway, and looks and feels like... windows3.1
<wpwrak>
hehe ;-)
<wpwrak>
maybe there's someone with time on their hands whom we could enlist for setting up something more modern ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm basically more than busy with figuring by whom, how, and where to get a webshop
<wpwrak>
yeah, that's a nasty one
<DocScrutinizer05>
I got that offer but it is a tad on the unspecific side regarding datastructures and link to our customer database yet to get created
<DocScrutinizer05>
and the guy suggests to run the stuff on servers of a hoster for 30EUR / mo incl "admin"
<wpwrak>
*shrug* whatever works, i guess :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
sounds good but kinda like "root access? what's that?" and "you need data access? we can send you a csv"
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess I will forward the offer to you
<DocScrutinizer05>
with a "rfc"
<wpwrak>
of course, even with root, you'd stil have to find your way through a jungle of mysql :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
if the whole thing is LAMP
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<wpwrak>
PHP, mysql, apache ... yeah, very LAMP :)
<wpwrak>
dunno what to think of the offer, that's too far out of my domain of experience. maybe you could ask nik for comments ? he may know this sort of stuff better
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's nothing we could ask Nik about either
<wpwrak>
he may know what such things cost, etc. maybe not from first-hand experience but from talking with other people
<DocScrutinizer05>
cost is way down on list of things to check
<wpwrak>
he may also know of other gotchas. i guess there are many "unknown unknowns", at least for me :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's no word about customer account webpages in that offer
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep, but somehow it's this guy's background
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I guess he will merge the two
<DocScrutinizer05>
nfc
<wpwrak>
sounds at least like the right corner of the IT spectrum ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, but I feel like losing control (read "root") over the whole web appearance
<DocScrutinizer05>
and the "IPC" is not defined at all
<DocScrutinizer05>
how will we generate statistics to e.g. count the number of LTE vs UMTS modules to order?
<DocScrutinizer05>
how will we add new "products"?
<DocScrutinizer05>
how do I get *my* *own* backup of stuff?
<wpwrak>
(root) ask him ? i would guess that it's some shared server, probably with virtualization
<DocScrutinizer05>
who else except this guy and "us" has access to all the company critical internal data?
<wpwrak>
more questions for him :)
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<wpwrak>
NSA, BND, GCHQ, ... :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
except those obvious overlords
<wpwrak>
... and the rest of the ~15 billion eyes ;-)
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<wpwrak>
grmbl. i hate those xor decisions: either have plenty of light in the office (nice for looking at off-screen items), have the screen not craws with little flies, enjoy the fresh night air. i can have only two out of these three :-(
<wpwrak>
#s/craws/crawl/
<DocScrutinizer51>
prallethidin
<Oksana>
Little flies? Find a fly-hunter. Spider? Mantis? Whoever is close by. And, find source of little flies. Food waste? Rotten onions?
<DocScrutinizer51>
rules out living fish ay home though
<wpwrak>
(source of flies) the city ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
they materialize out of nothing, a vacuum quantum effect
<wpwrak>
(insecticide) yeah, i could put a layer of bug spray on my screens. then i'd have that stuff right in front of my nose.
<DocScrutinizer05>
the universe is filled with ~3000 little virtual flies per cm^3
<DocScrutinizer05>
pralenthidine is no layer, it is gaseous and allegedly safe for humans. Usually gets used as repellant
<wpwrak>
i think they're created by photons hitting the WISP background. that's why they suddenly appear when there's light
<DocScrutinizer05>
worked great in Spain
<Oksana>
Prallethrin?
<wpwrak>
hmm. the flies here should also understand spanish ...
<Oksana>
Photodegradation on soil: Half life: 24.8 days (acid-labelled) 26.9 days (alcohol-labelled) ; ; ; ; Half-life = 118 hours at 23.5-25°C at pH 9. Significant degradation was not observed during 30 days at pH 5 and 7
<DocScrutinizer05>
I used a thing very similar to this one: http://www.amazon.de/Raid-Liquid-Mückenstecker/dp/B00B4HRC9K/ref=pd_bxgy_dr_img_y
<DocScrutinizer05>
has two levels of heating, and evaporates prallethrin during 30day or 7 days which will make mosqs etc flee your flat like they gonna die if they stay. Works even with open windows since the air escaping is "contaminated" with stuff no flying insect is tempted to approach
<DocScrutinizer05>
NB I usually hate such stuff. But when there's the exclusive OR decision between using chemical warfare or have myself eaten by mosquitoes, there's no second thought
<DocScrutinizer05>
all mosq bites I suffered in Spain were from my rare times outside flat
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<DocScrutinizer05>
another very expensive but working method is to have the light sources outside and shine in through doors and windows
<DocScrutinizer05>
doesn't help for mosquitoes but for other light-affine insects
<DocScrutinizer05>
downside: you attract bazillions of insects to the outside light sources
<DocScrutinizer05>
fans also help
<DocScrutinizer05>
e.g for screen, but also for the outside light sources, to somewhat keep them clean of insects
<wpwrak>
good idea: place your fans strategically so that the mosquitoes will attack them and not you :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
mosquitoes got for CO2 and other chemical signals. With fans you can only spread the message more widely ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/got/go/
<DocScrutinizer05>
stuff to think about: you hardly ever suffer a single mosqi bite when you stay close to the shore (max 20m from the waves), no matter if daytime when wind goes to land or night when wind goes to sea
<DocScrutinizer05>
and maybe they don't like smell of salt and sea
<DocScrutinizer05>
or even the salty mist in air
<wpwrak>
btw, any final thoughts on BMX vs. BNO ? i think nik and i have written all we have to say about it
<DocScrutinizer05>
(like aluminium frames of windows ;-P)
<DocScrutinizer05>
BMX it is
<DocScrutinizer05>
why use BNO when it's twice as much and gives us headaches
<wpwrak>
kewl. editing block diagram ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm quite happy Nik doesn't frown on it
<wpwrak>
BMX also has the advantage that there's no bloody ...O0... sequence in the name :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
50Ohms ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
even I can learn :-)
<wpwrak>
well, that is of course a standards violation. you're supposed to put a space between the two :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think I have to announce an offtime around end of January
<wpwrak>
winter holiday ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
continue taking care about my health
<DocScrutinizer05>
aka holiday, yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
all this talking about Spain made me feel like "it's about time"
<DocScrutinizer05>
life is more easy close to the sea and when temperature never drops below 10°C
<DocScrutinizer05>
[newsflash] two BB-xM and 5 1GB PoP chips are on their way to a facility where they will undergo major rework
<wpwrak>
here it's more like "never drops below 20" in january :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
your place is too far from my place and too far from seashore as well
<DocScrutinizer05>
and generally too crazy, I guess, for holiday
<wpwrak>
too much IT for holiday :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's why I didn't call it holiday
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually a 6 months ago I serously pondered to get decent DSL in a flat in Barbate and move to there for a period from Dec ~ Mar
<DocScrutinizer05>
considering that I leave flat once a week on average, to do anything other than shopping groceries, I could live and work anywhere and it wouldn't make a difference first instance
<DocScrutinizer05>
b tw shopping adds another two excursions per week only
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<DocScrutinizer05>
and actually as long as the connectivity is OK, the most of me can live in any decent server anywhere
<DocScrutinizer05>
as long as it's a *NIX OS
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<DocScrutinizer05>
dnag! my homematic suffers from RF errors > twice/day meanwhile. Seems 860MHz band is dead, thanks UMTS/LTE
<wpwrak>
(live anywhere) guess you found my secret ;-)
* DocScrutinizer05
idly wonders if wireshark has BidCOS dissectors meanwhile
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>The cover will block liquid water at a pressure of 2.7 bar, which is equivalent to 2.5 meters<< err suuuure SiLabs. Consider hiring better R&D personal please!
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<DocScrutinizer05>
ds2: usecase of humidity sensor is reading ambient humidity
<DocScrutinizer05>
plus I came up with an idea of implementing a airflow cooling anemometer with it
<Oksana>
No, makes no sense.
<Oksana>
I mean, the numbers are confusing.
<Oksana>
2.7/2.5=1.08
<DocScrutinizer05>
in my book 1 bar := 0m of water
<DocScrutinizer05>
10m
<DocScrutinizer05>
always been
<Oksana>
I'm more interested in 2.5 vs 2.7. Orders of magnitude will calculate themselves?
<ds2>
DocScrutinizer05: if you can get it exposed on front, it can also serve as UI element
<ds2>
as for the internal temp modeling use - watch it. it is more complex then one would hope.
<DocScrutinizer05>
???
<ds2>
let me find the videos
<DocScrutinizer05>
nevermind
<DocScrutinizer05>
not going to watcgh a lengthy video to learn about thermal modelling I'm not going to bother with anyway
<wpwrak>
honey is not so well: no register information
<DocScrutinizer05>
huh?
<wpwrak>
the HIH6130
<ds2>
DocScrutinzer05: no, for the UI stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't see any possible link between humidity sensor and UI
<ds2>
they took down the video
<Oksana>
Super Secret?
<wpwrak>
ui very bad -> user angry -> shouts, spittle flies -> humidity increases :)
<ds2>
youtube.com/watch?v=czHdnhASYdM
<ds2>
found the original link
<Oksana>
Not a good user case. Humidity is not going to increase, unless spittle flies directly at humidity sensor?
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: you forgot sweating hands
<Oksana>
Sweating hands... Oh, fun...
<wpwrak>
anyway, so i guess i add the si2070-a10-*m1* for now and then we see what happens ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
kinda
<DocScrutinizer05>
after spell checking
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: for hands shaking of rage, we have accel and gyro :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
almost complete polygraph
<DocScrutinizer05>
ds2: generally the idea of openphoenux devices and particularly Neo900 is: we deliver the hardware (as universal and versatile as possible) and *user* comes up with new exciting innovative usecases
<ds2>
DocScrutinizer05: in this case, the location of the sensor on the hw determines if certain uses are possible
<ds2>
exposed sensor allows for certain options
<ds2>
but to do it exposed means drilling and flexcables
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's the *BIG* difference between Neo900 and allother products that are designed from usecase to requirement spec to detail spec to schematics
<Oksana>
But, you need extra-good cover between the sensor and the environment, if you expose it.
<ds2>
no
<ds2>
just more mechanical work
<ds2>
bond the goretex to the case
<DocScrutinizer05>
we have exactly one good location for the sensor to reside in: top surface of UPPEr pcb, right upper corner
<DocScrutinizer05>
we're not going to drill any holes and glue gore-tex patches and whatnot
<ds2>
:)
<ds2>
be interesting to see how well it works in an enclosure without a specific hole for it
<DocScrutinizer05>
what's wrong with a non-specific aperture size of a complete device length?
<DocScrutinizer05>
ds2: when we learn the humidity sensor has a delay of 90s and an offset determined by a complex formula based on temperature of CPU and other heat sources inside device and of course the temperature of Si6020 itself, then the app to display humidity value will have to take all that into account
<DocScrutinizer05>
Si7020*
<ds2>
*nod*
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<DocScrutinizer05>
[2014-12-08 Mon 04:59:59] <DocScrutinizer05> and we solved the thermometer issue en passant
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2014-12-08 Mon 05:02:51] <DocScrutinizer05> placing one of the other chips with accurate temp sensor (e.g. barometer) some cm away on same side of PCB like the humi even allows us to estimate amount of device internal stray heating the chip suffers from heat sources like CPU etc, by watching the temperature gradient on PCB
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's basically "exposed to air"
<DocScrutinizer05>
we got no cavity or whatever there, just a gap of almost 1mm between PCB and display backside, and almost as much between display backside and lower case shell
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't think it elaborates on placement of the humi
<Oksana>
Just trying to understand how physical placement and block diagram correlate with each other
<DocScrutinizer05>
not at all :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
they correlate like public transport time tables and OSM
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<DocScrutinizer05>
btw, wpwrak, my recent "studies" revealed that even the areas on UPPER top where the slider mech steel plate is "low" (close to PCB) still have a usable headroom on PCB surface to add maybe 1mm or at least 0.7mm componnets there, as long as they don't mind receving force and electrical contact from the steel plate
<DocScrutinizer05>
and there's stil my idea to exploit that steel plate as heat sink ;-) - for whatever
<kerio>
can we use that steel plate as a body shield
<kerio>
like if you get shot but they hit the neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
regarding using the steel plate / slider mech mounting bolts for fixing UPPER to LOWER in sandwich: they are not exactly made for that and hardly suited
<DocScrutinizer05>
kerio: no, that's domain of Panasonic toughbook
<kerio>
but i have a macbook D:
<DocScrutinizer05>
your fault, you get killed then
<kerio>
DocScrutinizer05: hold on, which component would you add that doesn't mind force or current
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, some sot2* stuff comes to mind
<DocScrutinizer05>
or more generally small BGA chips
<DocScrutinizer05>
0402 components like resistors and capacitors when we add a kapton film on top of them
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, it's Friday :-) So the above YT vid was already "on topic" of usual Friday nonsense and trolling
<kerio>
can't we add more antennas
<DocScrutinizer05>
add a 25cm steel spring core silver plated wire into the stylus bay!
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually we're already short on antennas, we'd need an additional one for LTE mandatory MIMO
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm pondering to abuse the FMTX antenna for that
<DocScrutinizer05>
you would massively increase efficiency of that one by simply plugging in above mentioned wire into stylus bay
<DocScrutinizer05>
you also would improve range of FMTX
<DocScrutinizer05>
all of the above is only mildly influenced by trolling, it's 80% serious
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, we could use all the help we can get, regarding that RF stuff. Any RF experts around?
<DocScrutinizer05>
tasks at hand: tune pi filters to match a wheelchair, err the FMTX antena for example, to the 50 Ohm antenna line of the LTE modem
<DocScrutinizer05>
tune the existing N900 WLAN antenna to work for 5GHz 802.11a as well
<DocScrutinizer05>
consider placement of chip antenna for 5GHz (alternative to violating the 2.4GHz antenna)
<DocScrutinizer05>
note that we don't have design goals like "needs to be better than product XY". We're already happy with a "as good as it gets within the given limitations of our design"
<DocScrutinizer05>
again same policy as mentioned above applies: we define usecases resp product specs according to what we can achieve, not other way around
<DocScrutinizer05>
e.g. 802.1a is a 2we'll check feasibility" class feature of Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
11a*
<DocScrutinizer05>
meh
<DocScrutinizer05>
e.g. 802.11a (5GHz WLAN) is a "we'll check feasibility" class feature of Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
we promised LTE (if no massive obstacles stop us) but we cannot guarantee a certain sensitivity, so LTE might only work under good signal conditions and possibly with lower bandwidth than theoretically achievable in same situation by a device genuinely designed for LTE
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<DocScrutinizer05>
((2.4GHz antenna)) worst case we could add an electronically tunable pi filter, or switch between different hardwired fixed filters, to get a decent impedance match for 5GHz on built-in antena. Downside: when antenna is swititched to 5GHz mode, it will not only block 802.11b/g (2.4GHz) but as well bluetooth which works on same antenna in same frequency band
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd prefer a tuning that works decently for 2.4GHz and still supports 5GHz though with some efficiency loss allowed (might reduce range for 802.11a from a 100m to 20m or sth), or we get a dual-match design that can switch between a decent 2.4GHz only and a decent 5GHz that still does 2.4GHz though with reduced efficiency
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<DocScrutinizer05>
those pages are meant for adding more verbose deatils on the subsystem, like for example placement details in case of the humi sensor
<DocScrutinizer05>
alas that wiki system doesn't offer the easy "this page doesn't exist yet, click here to create it" standard template
<DocScrutinizer05>
somebody willing to help with a lil bit of simple wiki editing?
<DocScrutinizer05>
needed pages: ISM, Audio, ECI, Power, Other, Sensors, Lights, Telephony. each with a list of all subsystems belonging to this group, similar to structure of http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/doc/update/Core/
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: could you please swap sequence of "N900, Neo900" on http://neo900.org/stuff/block-diagrams/ ? I always click the N900 .html since it's conveniently on top of list
<DocScrutinizer05>
you even could reduce font size for the complete N900 section too
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's just there for reference, not *really* related to Neo900 project
<DocScrutinizer05>
the latter is liked directly from BD
<DocScrutinizer05>
linked*
<DocScrutinizer05>
I hope this suffices to at least sketch the concept
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: when you add the "Sensors > Humi" violet URL to the Si7020 in BD, you could consider already moving the comment ("Bote: SiLab seem to...") from BD to the yet-to-create-from-template: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/page/Sensors-Slide/ wikipage
<DocScrutinizer05>
as that's where it actually belongs to
<DocScrutinizer05>
random sidenote that's any new to our maemo community members but might be interesting to our community that's lacking N900 background: My N900 sat for 18h on battery, standby on UMTS and logged in to IRC via xchat over WLAN. Battery is down to ~65% now. That's about the design goal or rather product requirement spec for Neo900 too
<DocScrutinizer05>
not* any new...
<DocScrutinizer05>
the "needs three batteries per 24h" complaints are only due to e.g. data over WWAN (and particularly UMTS here) which is known to be an extreme power hog, no matter how small the data *volume* transferred since TX gets enabled for several seconds even for a single byte to transmit or receive. Some users also ran always-budy CPU-hogging background apps like battery monitors (SIC!)
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/budy/busy/
<kerio>
even then
<kerio>
irc over umts with shitty coverage only drained about a battery in half a day
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, I managed to drain 80% in 5h with UMTS
<DocScrutinizer05>
with a little help from screen backlight
<DocScrutinizer05>
depends on number of channels and amount of activity on them, as well as stuff like bouncer you might use etc. It's quite easy to keep UMTS TX 100% active with a few irc channels with lots of join/part etc
<mvaenskae>
is umts tx also kept at 100% if the connection is super bad?
<DocScrutinizer05>
this could drain your batt in less than 2h theoretically
<DocScrutinizer05>
mvaenskae: the point is UMTS is CDMA which means the TX needs calibration to match level to all the other active stations, and to keep this up and allow low lead time for "calibration" and thus low "ping times", the network tells the modem to keep TX active for a few seconds (like 2, 5, or 15, can't recall details), once TX got started up. And it starts up for sending any data or ACK(!) to inbound data
<DocScrutinizer05>
you can find out by connecting to internet via UMTS, use bq27200.sh to monitor the system power consumption continuously, and then run a ping/N_seconds where you increment N from 1 to 30 in 1-steps, every 20s. Somewhere around 4 .. 10 seconds between pings you'll notice the power consumption on average drops significantly, while before it stays more or less on same level
<DocScrutinizer05>
which would indicate that every ping keeps TX active for 4 seconds
<DocScrutinizer05>
the mobile equipment's absolute TX power level gets adjusted by base station so it fits into the overall RF situation the station sees
<DocScrutinizer05>
GSM, being TDMA, is much more relaxed regarding such problems.
<DocScrutinizer05>
in TDMA the mobile sends a data burst in its time slot it got assigned by base station, only when it has data to send, and TX stays off for the rest of the time
<DocScrutinizer05>
TX level calibration is only needed to reduce power consumption of the mobile, not for estabilshing a stable conection to the BTS
<mvaenskae>
ah, right; i read something about umts adjusting itself to active stations; that's the reason why high speed trains usually cause such trouble for umts to keep up as the calibration is going bonkers
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<mvaenskae>
is that problem also present in lte?
<DocScrutinizer05>
when on a party all people talk to one listener same time, the listener will want to make sure everybody is heard by listener in same relative loudness so nobody gets completely covered and obscured by a too loud peer
<DocScrutinizer05>
I admit I haven't looked too much into LTE coding standards yet. Allegedly LTE is more power saving than UMTS
<DocScrutinizer05>
(party) GSM is like all talkers only talking one at a time and listener tells everybody when to talk. This way it doesn'T matter much how loud the particular talker is
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<DocScrutinizer05>
listener occasionally may mention "hey, you don't need to shout, I can hear you excellent even on half the loudness"
<DocScrutinizer05>
(W)CDMA is a mess compared to that
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<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: (lab-tools-tmc) I got a >>libusb-compat-devel - libusb-1.0 Compatibility Layer for libusb-0.1 --- A compatibility layer allowing applications written for libusb-0.1 to work with libusb-1.0. libusb-compat-0.1 attempts to look, feel, smell and walk like libusb-0.1.<< do you think that's what your stuff needs?
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<wpwrak>
(libusb) can't hurt to give it a try :) dunno why there's such a mess with 0.1 vs. 1.0 and two ways of bridging that gap
<mvaenskae>
sorry, my intertubes suddently died for some moments :(
<wpwrak>
(swap N900 and Neo900) hmm. that would make the order on the entry page Neo900 - N900 while all the pop-ups consistently have N900 - Neo900. wouldn't that be a bit confusing ? I could render all the N900 stuff in italics, though. that would make it look more like the same content in the pop-ups.
<mvaenskae>
wpwrak: wrapping what? are you gonna sell n900's as well now? :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
please check the rest of backlog, wpwrak!
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm not to concerned about uniform sorting order in BD popups and on a Neo900.org webpage
<DocScrutinizer05>
I mean, should we rename the website to N900-Neo900.org ? ;-)
<wpwrak>
(violet link) added, and updated block diagram
<DocScrutinizer05>
in the long run we eventually want to grow out of our Nokia heritage
<wpwrak>
(rename, etc.) naw, just thinking of keeping things consistent. some of apple's ideas may be worth stealing, after all :)
<wpwrak>
but okay, swapping then ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
even the fakt that the thing looks like a N900 is not exactly intentional and nothing we want to keep on top of our list of selling points. And the similarities between N900 and Neo900 on schematics level are interesting for the FPTF guys (and gals) but not a general product design paradigm either
<DocScrutinizer05>
fact*
<DocScrutinizer05>
from a marketing/psychological POV our product should be on top, and other references to background info appear as footnote
<DocScrutinizer05>
Humi also great (thiugh I already called it "Humi" everywhere :-/ )
<DocScrutinizer05>
analog to "Baro"
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, lemme edit the index page then, before somebidy creates a wiki page with wrong name. I dunno if we ever could delete such page again
<wpwrak>
templates ... sounds complex. lemme get some caffeines first
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<wpwrak>
so how do i create a template from "Sensors-Slide" ? i don't see anything that looks like template management anywhere
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<wpwrak>
or maybe i don't have edit access and thus don't see these things ? i'm logged in but there's nothing that looks usable for changing that "wiki"
<wpwrak>
ah, "update this page"
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<wpwrak>
how do i edit the description ?
<wpwrak>
i copied the note over and deleted all the non-hydroscopic stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
I meant "template2 like 2see there for how to structure and write stuff"
<DocScrutinizer05>
I meant "template" like "see there for how to structure and write stuff"
<wpwrak>
yeah, i figured that. copied all and pasted
<DocScrutinizer05>
we have a system immanent restriction on location: somewhere where it gets fresh air
<DocScrutinizer05>
component part number is known
<DocScrutinizer05>
though tentatively
<DocScrutinizer05>
we need further classification: "required" which is a "nice to have" here, while many other parts are 2mandatory"
<wpwrak>
please feel free to duplicate whatever you want from the block diagram :) personally, i wouldn't do that, though. the more copies, the more likely they are to disagree. we're already having a hard time keeping block diagram and schematics in sync
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<wpwrak>
note removed from block diagram. no ... let's update the BOM side of things ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, that's kinda true, but ... we will edit wiki first, and BD based on that, when any part change happens
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<DocScrutinizer05>
that's also a good thinking why we don't want any part number (parts) in wiki page titles
<wpwrak>
in think you should keep the wiki strictly to additional information that's not already elsewhere. and maybe abolish the issue tracker then. right now, it's just a repetition of the mess we have with countless parallel partially defunct communication channels.
<DocScrutinizer05>
Nik just sent a proforma invoice for EVQ-Q0G03K
<wpwrak>
lemme propose a truce: you keep me out of whatever you do in that wiki, and i won't bother you with my opinions of what's wrong with it. deal ? :)
<wpwrak>
(EVQ) good ! one more nasty part that's beginning to roll
<DocScrutinizer05>
look, I'll add the part number chage to wiki, not to BD
<DocScrutinizer05>
change
<wpwrak>
perfect with me :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
you can't hope for doing "your thing" in BD and everybody else keeping stuff in sync on their side
<wpwrak>
i wonder if we should get a reel of the MSL0201RGBW1TR as well. USD 1600 seems doable.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm running short of funds. We will have to send everybody to holiday at end of January
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guaranteed GDC that Neo900 UG will pay complete proto_V2 R&D
<wpwrak>
so high time to refill the cash box ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
we can't spend the R&D funds for proto_V2 on risk part purchases
<wpwrak>
fair enough
<DocScrutinizer05>
I just realize that Nik watermarked the pdf with "proforma invoice" so probably he already wants another 1360 for switches
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd love to get a reel of RGB suckers, but....
<DocScrutinizer05>
they are a) not mission critical (at least not like the dang switches) and b) we need more than one reel iirc and that starts to cost real money
<wpwrak>
yeah, they're an uncomfortable part. unique in the world, and with highly variable availability. at least, for now there are plenty.
<wpwrak>
yes, 2-3 reels. each has 3 k parts
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer05>
3 then
<DocScrutinizer05>
unless we already start rethinking our "1k" goal
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw re AUX LEDs we need to recheck what the heck is common-XXXode situation
<wpwrak>
oh, right. there's that, too ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
the dang LP5523 have a pretty unusual circuitry there
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<wpwrak>
can't we just get rid of that chip ? :)
<DocScrutinizer51>
alas nnot
<DocScrutinizer51>
not
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<DocScrutinizer51>
it is the only chip that has those nifty engines afaik
<DocScrutinizer51>
ooh, gry is svetlana?
<gry>
yes
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<DocScrutinizer05>
hi sve err gry
<P-G>
Hi?
<DocScrutinizer05>
nickserv bantering you?
<P-G>
Yeah, should I change?
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm?
<P-G>
I think it's fine.
<DocScrutinizer05>
who's P-G
<P-G>
On this network, I don't know, lol.
<P-G>
This is my usual nick but I don't frequent freenode.
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, I completely lost track of what's going on
<P-G>
Me too. :p
<P-G>
What's up?
<gry>
DocScrutinizer05, I left some certain groups..
<wpwrak>
(nifty engines) for the pulsating front RGB while charging ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
for example
<DocScrutinizer05>
for the pulsating blinking flickering rainbow-special-FX front indicator LED, yes
<wpwrak>
in all other states we should have an operational CPU, so it could just send ramp/flicker/etc. updates
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I guess I know why you got them AUX LEDs as front facing: we can't get side facing ones with the right common-* config
<DocScrutinizer05>
no way
<DocScrutinizer05>
you don't want to wake CPU 20 times per second just to update LED brightness
<DocScrutinizer05>
that would massively reduce standby time
<DocScrutinizer05>
please re-adjust your idea about "operational CPU"
<wpwrak>
well, if 1.8 V rail is up, you could also delegate this to the MCU. that is, if DM3730 is multi-master-capable and the MCU is on the same bus as the LED controller
<DocScrutinizer05>
we don't have a MCU
<Humpelstilzchen>
don't we have a PRU in the SoC to do that? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and MCE is talking to LP5523, we won't write a LP5523 emu, neither in APE nor in any MCU we don't have anyway
<wpwrak>
at least not yet :) now, lemme check those LEDs. if there's the CA/CC issue, then we should have it at another place as well ...
<wpwrak>
Microsoft Certified Engineer. can'd trust those guys ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
please note that even GTA03 had LP5521 after I introduced that chip to our EE fols
<DocScrutinizer05>
folks
<DocScrutinizer05>
LP552* *is* a dedicated MCU
<DocScrutinizer05>
even three of them, depending on how you count it
<wpwrak>
an overengineer's dream chip ;-) too bad they stopped at also making CC/CA configurable. now that would have solves a lot of headaches :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
hh?
<DocScrutinizer05>
huh even
<DocScrutinizer05>
aaaah common cathode/anode
<wpwrak>
yup
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, exactly what I just thought. Why the heck TI (or the former manuf) never produced a version with the complementary config?
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<wpwrak>
subtle differences force people to buy more chips :)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
hmmm, don't see that applying here
<wpwrak>
okay, confirmed: the MSL0201RGB are a problem on the LP55231.
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's why I got the other controllers
<wpwrak>
(more chips) yeah, they would have to offer a complementary part to make full use of it
<wpwrak>
so privacy and Mod to do the 55231 while the Aux go to 55281 ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
if they were selling side facing compatible LEDs, now THAT would make lots of sense ;-P
<wpwrak>
it could be so easy: do as SMLP36RGB2W3 does and bring out cathode and anode. problem solved.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah
<wpwrak>
it's all an evil global conspiracy
<DocScrutinizer05>
we gonna use other side facing LEDs for AUX, worst case three monochrome ones
<DocScrutinizer05>
or we find a way to mirror the front emitting RBG compatible to LP5523
<DocScrutinizer05>
so they light up the spacerframe
<wpwrak>
so Aux must have fancy light effects ? not just the front-facing RGB ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, that's the only purpose of AUX
<DocScrutinizer05>
making use of the fancy light effects we get "for free" from LP5523
<DocScrutinizer05>
the fancy light effects are only really useful for locked device
<wpwrak>
if we shuffle things around, we could do the fun stuff on the mod leds and privacy instead. may look pretty on privacy, too, wouldn't it ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
useless
<wpwrak>
bah
<wpwrak>
has that ever stopped us ? ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
THAT we actually can do by CPU since whenever those LEDs are visible, CPU is in C0 a lot
<wpwrak>
so the bottom like is that we need to find common-cathode side-facing rgb leds ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
and since those may not exist, we will go for 3 mono LEDs instead (but actually side facing right type might exists when we take into account that we got 2mm headroom there, ulike for kbd bl LEDs)
<wpwrak>
CC or with individual cathode/anode
<wpwrak>
well, let's first see if they exist ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry for messing up stuff once again with the MSL0201RGBW1TR for AUX
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's the result on not finalizing one topic and resuming on it months later
<wpwrak>
yeah. multitasking kills :(
<DocScrutinizer05>
let's hope we get it fixed again before Nik runs into it
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<DocScrutinizer05>
afk, bbl
<DocScrutinizer05>
cam switches are ordered
<phre4k>
nice :)
<phre4k>
dumb question: how do I know my donation came through? Do I get an eMail?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
when you did a money transfer, there's a confirmation mail supposed to come at max 4 weeks after you did - depends on how frequently dos1 manages to send those. When you did paypal, then paypal sent a confirmation mail to you
<DocScrutinizer05>
o/ l8rs
<wpwrak>
yeah, the conspiracy is pretty perfect. all ten side-facing three-color LEDs with stock at digi-key are common anode. no common cathode, no non-combined anode
<DocScrutinizer05>
so either mono side LEDs, or front facing plus lightguide
<DocScrutinizer05>
dk actually offers several lightguides off the shelf
<DocScrutinizer05>
and there's still a topic we completely neglected yet: Video connector
<DocScrutinizer05>
not that cheesy AV CVBS stuff, something that makes sense with computer monitors
<DocScrutinizer05>
o/ again
<kerio>
still analog?
<kerio>
vga is basically rgb with some extra stuff
<wpwrak>
here's the part for you: 10 channels plus *flash*. related end equipment "fun lighting" ;-)) http://www.ti.com/product/lm8502
<wpwrak>
not the easiest chip to obtain, though. no distributors stock them, only TI do.
<DocScrutinizer05>
you cannot "solve the MCE problem", since this actually is an API problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
you'd need to emulate the sysfs nodes of LP5523
<bencoh>
hmm
<bencoh>
where ?
<bencoh>
(I hope you dont mean "in kernel" :p)
<DocScrutinizer05>
MCE is not the only process using those directly. And MCE user interface (etc/mce/mce.ini) syntax is massively based on how LP5523 works
<DocScrutinizer05>
fcam uses LP5523 sysnodes directly (though it rather shouldn't)
<DocScrutinizer05>
there are even editors for the plashing patterns of the indicator LED
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't want to do anything with those
<DocScrutinizer05>
I have a LP5523 on my schematics here
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I'm not going to replace that one with a new chip, to make AUX LEDs more easy to exploit some function that came for free with LP5523
<DocScrutinizer05>
that would be quite paradox
<DocScrutinizer05>
and you still have the front facing indicator LED that has CC and you won't drive that with anything made for CA
<DocScrutinizer05>
bottom line: what are we doing here?
<wpwrak>
ah yes, good point. damn legacy :(
<DocScrutinizer05>
we already replaced CC by CA for kbd backlight
<wpwrak>
yeah, there CC would be completely impossible
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<wpwrak>
so it's either top-emitting LED (some light will make it out on the side regardless, and maybe we could nudge it to let out a bit more) or three discrete LEDs ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2014-12-19 Fri 15:48:36] <DocScrutinizer05> so either mono side LEDs, or front facing plus lightguide
<wpwrak>
alright. so what shall it be ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
depends on available light guides
<wpwrak>
i'll look for the three discrete leds then .. :)
<wpwrak>
we already have red and blue, so all that's missing is green ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
max height 2mm, incl LED. redirects to side. length to side also very short
<wpwrak>
an no, they're top-facing of course
* wpwrak
needs more sleep
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's an abundance of side facing PicoLEDs from Rohm in all colors you can think of, iirc
<wpwrak>
yeah, not a problem. i just hoped we could reuse parts we'll already have to get
<DocScrutinizer05>
SS7 is sooooo ooooold and obviously infested by flaws, I'm surprised it still does work at all
<DocScrutinizer05>
SS7 is the digital complement to in band signal tones that allowed faking money insert to phonebooth phones and even opened up nice hacks like dropping the international link of an established call and then setting up an arbitrary new route, basically just by piping a whistle into the receiver of your phone. SS7 is the digital form of whistles ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
uh? why do you think I got there?
<DocScrutinizer05>
did I use some wording that sounds like schneier? I swaer it's all genuinely my idea of what to think about SS7
<DocScrutinizer05>
let's see what Schneier says
<wpwrak>
no no, i first saw just UMTS (not SS7) and commented on that. then i saw the rest. must have missed the article on heise during my morning scan.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I did "miss" it too, just searched after [2014-12-19 Fri 20:41:10] <DocScrutinizer05> maybe I might check the details of this exploit eventually
<DocScrutinizer05>
the URL already gave it away. SS/, muhahahaha
<DocScrutinizer05>
SS7 even
<DocScrutinizer05>
I kind of know SS7 and all the shite in there
<DocScrutinizer05>
the "universelle Abhoerschnittstelle" used by law enforcement agencies all around the world been defined by German authorities and implemented via an addendum to SS7 iirc
<kerio>
ss7?
<DocScrutinizer05>
since SS7 is *supposed* to be out-of-band signalling, it has ZILCH security built in
<DocScrutinizer05>
so once you got access to the sideband, you can do literally everything you want
<wpwrak>
kerio: the signaling protocol used inside telco networks. like q.931 and friends are used on isdn
<wpwrak>
(isdn) ... between network and user
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: i once stumbled into the first session of the atm forum on securing ATM signaling. i was there invited by ... i think it was fujitsu, because back then we were doing ATM support on linux and fujitsu had taken an interest in that.
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: that security session was "interesting" to say the least. think of visiting a kindergarten, then suggest to discuss e-mail encryption. let them scan the internet for half an hour before that.
<DocScrutinizer05>
megatons of fun?¡
<kerio>
rofl
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer05>
would've been surprised to hear anything else about such meeting
<wpwrak>
it's kinda chilling when you realize that, not being much of an expert in the area of encryption and such, you must be the by far most skilled person in a room full of folks who are about to define standards for a pretty big part of the world.
<DocScrutinizer05>
you wouldn't believe me how often that's the exact description of how such stuff is handled
<wpwrak>
well, at the end of the session i dropped a few polite suggestions for further reading to one or two individuals who had been particularly vocal. things along the lines "you may have heard of that thing called public-key crypto ..."
<wpwrak>
yeah. it's just weird do actually be there and see it live and in true color :)
<wpwrak>
s/do/to/
<DocScrutinizer05>
yup, it every time gives you a feeling like somebody beamed you into a parallel universe where complete ingorance is a mandatory skill for getting a responsible job
<DocScrutinizer05>
then you notice that actually you're living in this parallel universe, always did. And wonder what's so puzzling in finding the evidence for the fact
<wpwrak>
heh, finally they have a good dj at trancebase.fm ! (discovering that internet radio my the main find when playing with my n900 so far :)
<wpwrak>
and now mute for ads ...
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<DocScrutinizer05>
anybody got an idea what "TNO" might mean as a suffix to a BGA chip, related to "packaging"
<DocScrutinizer05>
"taping not original" ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
or is "packaging" referring to the chip package, maybe some particular material like ceramic or not ceramic, or sth about balling?
<DocScrutinizer05>
~wtf tno
<infobot>
Gee... I don't know what tno means...
<wpwrak>
wikipedia helpfully offers: Trust No One (disambiguation)
<DocScrutinizer05>
LOL
<wpwrak>
though i also like Trans-Neptunian object
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<wpwrak>
(aka corrugated unobtainium ? :)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
unobtainium would kinda match: "KCE00E00CA-A506 TNO"
<wpwrak>
couldn't fit any better :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
God! I need to cancel subscription to mail notices of new posts to some tmo threads
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's really incredible what skills some people develop to embed a false suggestion/assumption in every single sentence they say
<DocScrutinizer05>
"since soon council elections take place, I want to discuss Council being disbanded and getting replaced by an elected group of volunteers" AHA!!!
<DocScrutinizer05>
"Alternatively, a working group could be established, by election or simply by volunteering"
* DocScrutinizer05
headdesks
<DocScrutinizer05>
let's see. Council is *) a working group *) of volunteers *) getting established by election
<kerio>
those who don't know history etc etc
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