<awygle> yup terrapower and cnnc have been working together on stuff for a while i guess
<jn__> i guess nuclear reactors are just so out of my world that i always freak out a little when i think about them
<sorear> They scare me less than cars
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<cr1901_modern> We will not prevent a climate catastrophe without them
<azonenberg> rqou: it doesnt lock out flash, code continues executing
<azonenberg> it just inhibits reads over swd
<rqou> um, that doesn't match what scanlime and i both observed
<rqou> you can't step instructions when rdp is enabled
<rqou> otherwise you get yet another trivial bypass
<rqou> in my case it definitely seems to be crosstalk
<rqou> because putting my finger on the test point stops it
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<rqou> lol whitequark you actually drink when you're stressed? :P
<whitequark> rqou: yes and no
<whitequark> i mean, i'm no longer "i hate alcohol and never drink it" (i'm instead "i hate alcohol and can drink it") but i don't actually get any interesting effects from alcohol
<whitequark> it's just that i opened the fridge and we're all out of things to drink that aren't tea or alcohol and i'm too lazy to make tea
<whitequark> everything i say on twitter about drinking is for comedic effect
<rqou> lolol
<rqou> do you have a preferred intoxicant that you're willing to publicly discuss? :P :P
<whitequark> if I had to choose one? sure, ketamine
<whitequark> it's an NMDA receptor antagonist and dorsal horn neuron inhibitor
<whitequark> in practice, this means that it's an antidepressant and stops the wind-up process associated with chronic pain, including (not relevant for me personally, but for some people i know) associated with fibromyalgia
<azonenberg> Ketamine is an antidepressant? interesting
<whitequark> it's extremely safe so long as you don't go swimming as it doesn't inhibit respiratory reflex, and the only negative effect you get (at large daily doses) is bladder irritation
<whitequark> hospitals use it on literal babies
<whitequark> (and in far higher dosages than what one would choose recreationally)
<azonenberg> i'm only familiar with it being used recreationally or as an EMS pain reliever
<rqou> are the PSAs about not abusing ketamine still up in various places in HK?
<azonenberg> And swimming?
<whitequark> azonenberg: it's actually being evaluated by FDA
<azonenberg> why is that a concern?
<rqou> (yes, it was ketamine specifically, although this was many years ago)
<whitequark> rqou: it's now weed
<whitequark> a skull made from blunt smoke
<rqou> lolwut
<whitequark> the stupidest govt propaganda i've seen in my life
<rqou> i thought weed was never that popular over in asia?
<rqou> (and on the other hand, ketamine doesn't seem all that popular over here)
<whitequark> azonenberg: ~all ketamine deaths that don't involve multiple drug use are due to drowning
<azonenberg> interesting
<whitequark> see, the thing about it being a dorsal horn neuron inhibitor is that it disrupts conduction of pain
<azonenberg> so what, you get so zoned out you forget to pull your head out of the water to breathe?
<whitequark> but the pain sensation and tactile sensation are the same nerve fibers, just different frequency
<rqou> wait, this means the HK government has run at least two sets of PSAs on the least dangerous drugs?
<rqou> wtf
<azonenberg> oh interesting
<azonenberg> so you cant tell that you're in the water?
<whitequark> so your muscle feedback loop breaks
<whitequark> you can feel jack shit
<azonenberg> so it kinda numbs your whole body?
<azonenberg> interesting
<whitequark> it doesn't actually mess with your motor function, just sensorics, so (in principle) if you're extremely intoxicated but also have real good small motor skills so you can "drive your body on manual", to put it in a way, you can still appear sober
<whitequark> yes, that's a part of it
<azonenberg> i'm used to that kind of effect with local nerve blocks using e.g. lidocaine
<whitequark> you can also exert quite a bit more muscle force than normal
<rqou> so whitequark, this is probably going to trigger a rant, but why are drugs illegal in the first place?
<rqou> or at least the "normal, not weird 'designer' drugs that you were warned about in school"
<whitequark> disassembling shitty electronics is :100 emoji:
<whitequark> rqou: there are some designer arylcyclohexamines on market that I would consider "likely safe"
<whitequark> anyway, the answer is basically american puritanism
<rqou> ok, i had in mind the crazy fentanyl derivatives
<whitequark> look into where UN single convention stems from
<whitequark> fentanyl derivatives aren't designer drugs
<whitequark> dangerous designer drugs are things like AB-CHMINACA
<rqou> oh right those crazy things
<rqou> but anyways, other than "those super-dangerous ones" why are drugs even illegal?
<azonenberg> rqou: if you want to ban actually dangerous drugs
<azonenberg> how about EtOH? :p
<whitequark> yeah
<whitequark> but we tried that and it didn't work
<whitequark> rqou: because proletariat shouldn't have fun
<azonenberg> Or tobacco
<whitequark> i'm serious that's literally the only reason
<rqou> but we banned other stuff and i wouldn't consider that it "worked" either
<azonenberg> whitequark: personally, i think the problem with that is that they did it suddenly
<azonenberg> You don't ban something there's a demand for, all that does is create a black market
<rqou> e.g. we now have an "opioid crisis," and it affects more than black people now :P
<whitequark> rqou: Afghanistan opium production is at an all-time high
<azonenberg> You remove the demand, then ban it so the last supplier or two goes away
<azonenberg> Which is what seems to be going on with smoking, at least in the US
<whitequark> the real opioid crisis is all the people in chronic pain who *can't* get their drugs
<azonenberg> They're trying to eliminate the demand
<whitequark> properly taken opioids aren't dangerous and the manufacturing cost of a kilo of heroin is somewhere in cents
<whitequark> you could solve the entire american opioid use problem by just making as much heroin as the population will consume and distributing it on citizen payroll, and this will cost at least thousands times less than DEA
<whitequark> unfortunately, as you probably already know, protestant morality
<ZipCPU> That's not true and you know it.
<ZipCPU> The opioid crisis causes more than just opioid addiction to folks that use it
<ZipCPU> It rots the core of the moral fiber of america, causing men (and women) to do wicked deeds (steal, murder, etc) that they wouldn't have done otherwise.
<whitequark> and here we have the live specimen of the cause of the opioid crisis
<ZipCPU> In an effort to keep sanity in the streets, the gov't has attempted to make opioids ilelgal
<ZipCPU> As a classic example, look at those places where recreational marijuana has become legal.
<ZipCPU> The places have all gone to pot.
<rqou> you mean, like berkeley? :P
<rqou> i haven't noticed a significant increase in usage before vs after legalization
<ZipCPU> (Actually, I was referencing Denver, but I doubt Berkeley would be all that different.) Crime is up. Bad driving is up. Driving while high is now a crime, now that folks have been killed by it.
<rqou> i don't have the data for this, but i'm pretty sure berkeley's crime problem would go away if we solved the bay area housing crisis (ha!)
<rqou> which is a whole other can of worms
<ZipCPU> rqou: While you and I might wish it to be so, that may only be one piece of the problem.
<rqou> i have personally witnessed the (multiple!) tent cities grow larger in my years in berkeley, so the housing crisis is definitely a real thing
<ZipCPU> Underneath, the problem is sin, and one sin causes a man to commit another sin. Sin itself is addictive, in whatever form it takes--including opioids, marijuana, theft, murder, and much more.
<ZipCPU> It doesn't matter whether or not you make it legal and lawful or not, the underlying problem conduct will still be a .... problem.
<rqou> i disagree with that
<whitequark> the real sin is how the ban on opioids has directly created, enriched, and ensured dominance of drug cartels
<ZipCPU> whitequark: Judged by what standard? And, in your world, who defines what sin even is?
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<rqou> i know multiple people who may or may not have used "illegal" drugs while in university (either due to experimenting or due to stress) and all of them are still leading "proper" lives now
<whitequark> if you are in favor of restricting opioid use you are directly responsible for at least 120 thousand deaths in Mexico
<ZipCPU> By what standard?
<whitequark> the power of drug cartels comes from the power of state restricting substance use.
<ZipCPU> That's a lie.
<ZipCPU> It just plain ain't true.
<rqou> if that was a question for me, everybody i know who may or may not have used "illegal" drugs *) graduated *) is working on a plan for the future (e.g. job, further school)
<whitequark> rqou: you haven't listened
<ZipCPU> rqou: If only that were true for all.
<rqou> ?
<rqou> i was disagreeing with the "sin causes another sin" part
<whitequark> see by his logic if you aren't suffering you're committing a sin. that's not what he says but it's what he means.
<whitequark> the rest doesn't even matter
* whitequark shrugs
* azonenberg wonders when ##openfpga became ##drugpolicy
<whitequark> you know, when i found his blog, i hoped "oh, a christian you can actually meaningfully talk to" but now i'm just disappointed
<rqou> azonenberg: you can blame The Blockchain(TM)
<ZipCPU> rqou: Check out John 8:35, then take it up with the author.
<ZipCPU> "if you aren't suffering you're committing a sin"? Where'd you get that?
<whitequark> also check out Ezekiel 23:20
<ZipCPU> Galatians 5:19-20. In that chapter, "witchcraft" is built of the ancient word "pharmakeia" (pharmacy)--which would include opioids.
<whitequark> good to know you're against penicillin too
<ZipCPU> As for Ezekiel ... you might wish to pay attention to the rest of the chapter.
<ZipCPU> Why use penicillin when there are other (allowed) antibiotics?
<ZipCPU> Antibiotics without the consequences of penicillin?
<whitequark> what
<ZipCPU> Honey
<ZipCPU> Prov 24:13
<rqou> i'd rather have modern β-lactams
<whitequark> you do realize penicillin is legal and fairly widely used, right?
<ZipCPU> Any way .... got to run.
<ZipCPU> So is honey.
<whitequark> rqou: do you see what I mean about suffering now
<whitequark> ZipCPU: thank you.
<whitequark> rqou: (I wonder if paclitaxel is allowed in this classification.)
<rqou> i mean, penicillin also comes from "natural" sources
<whitequark> oh, yeah, "pharmakeia" is a mode, not a substance
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<rvense> is honey an antibiotic?
<azonenberg> rvense: it has some antibacterial properties
<whitequark> honey is a drying agent
<azonenberg> i think it's closer to an antiseptic though
<whitequark> bacteria can't live in environments with very high osmotic pressures
<whitequark> they get sucked dru
<whitequark> *dry
<azonenberg> interesting, that makes sense
<azonenberg> So if dilute, it loses that capability
<rvense> but.. it's mostly sugar, right?
<azonenberg> Pure sugar is shelf stable for a long time
<azonenberg> because of exactly that
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<rvense> ah, interesting.
<whitequark> I think the accepted uses of honey are for external cuts and abrasions
<azonenberg> It dehydrates anything that tries to live in it
<rqou> except botulism spores :P
<whitequark> so yes, honey works for that, and a sugar solution would work just as well
<rqou> i guess those aren't really "living"
<whitequark> spores are alive. well, more alive than viruses, anyway
<whitequark> oh, honey also has peroxidases in it
<azonenberg> yeah i thought it had some other antibacterial effects
<azonenberg> In any case there are better alternatives
<whitequark> you can't rely on peroxidases though, the content is very variable
<whitequark> >After combined neutralization of H(2)O(2), MGO, and bee defensin-1, 20% honey had only minimal activity left, and subsequent adjustment of the pH of this honey from 3.3 to 7.0 reduced the activity to that of sugar alone.
<rqou> hmm, i wonder how the "everything as god intended" viewpoint fits with the fact that <large number>% of the world population today exists only because of the haber process?
<whitequark> rqou: that's how you justify genocide
<whitequark> one of the variants, anyway
<whitequark> see also: "prepper mindset"
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<rvense> i'm just wondering if whatever's great about honey wouldn't be greater if you made it in a controlled environment instead of inside bees
<rvense> also, my next question is how do you use honey to treat pneumonia
<rqou> i mean, we also have things like BZK instead
<whitequark> rvense: no patient, no disease
<whitequark> see also: the solutions to the opioid crisis that involve quickly killing addicts by shooting them or slowly by imprisoning them
<whitequark> in the latter case you can also earn a few pennies in the private prison you run AND feel morally superior to those good-for-nothings. 2 for the price of 1
<whitequark> rqou: BZK is a Category III antiseptic and I think it's only used because it's grandfathered
<whitequark> it's toxic
<rqou> huh, azonenberg seems to prefer it in his kit
<whitequark> well
<whitequark> it destbilizes the lipid bilayer
<whitequark> that would obviously kill anything without a cell wall but it'll also kill you
<rqou> not on your skin?
<whitequark> skin, no, but it's also used in eye drops, nasal sprays, and the like
<whitequark> also if used on wounds it'll probably make them heal worse
<azonenberg> whitequark: what do you prefer?
<azonenberg> For open wound cleaning
<whitequark> azonenberg: hydrogen peroxide, personally
<rvense> whitequark: "private prisons".. i can't describe how that phrase makes me feel.
<azonenberg> my research indicated it was superior to IPA and H2O2 on the basis of not damaging tissue
<rqou> rvense: welcome to the land of FREEDOM!
<azonenberg> povidone iodine on the basis of not staining things and, more importantly, not causing problems in people with shellfish allergies
<azonenberg> And roughly tied with chlorhexidine
<whitequark> azonenberg: you are correct in that there are results indicating that H2O2 is damaging wound tissue
<azonenberg> Lacking any evidence to pick CHG over BZK, and with greater availability of BZK in wipes and stuff
<azonenberg> that's what i went with
<whitequark> chlorhexidine becomes inactive when mixed with many surfactants
<whitequark> it's also not very effective
<whitequark> compared to H2O2
<whitequark> in case of H2O2, I opted to disregard these results and found no real difference in wound healing compared to any other disinfectant
<whitequark> anecdotally
<whitequark> compared mostly to PVD
<whitequark> PVI
<whitequark> note that CHG is bacteriostatic, not antiseptic, in dilute solutions
<whitequark> whereas 3% H2O2 kills everything. gram-positive, gram-negative, spores, viruses, whatever the hell
<rvense> rqou: "Freedom's merely privilege extended / Unless enjoyed by one and all"
<whitequark> BZK also acts only on cellular infectious agents
<azonenberg> whitequark: not antiviral? interesting
<whitequark> well, it depends on the specific virus
<azonenberg> But i didnt think viral infections of wounds were that big a deal compared to bacteria
<whitequark> it'd definitely work on HIV
<whitequark> because HIV barely holds itself together
<azonenberg> I thought most viral infections were systemic, not topical
<whitequark> herpesvirus is pretty bad
<rqou> as long as the virus is not on your dingus :P
<azonenberg> Bad meaning hard to kill?
<whitequark> no, I mean, it can infect your CNS
<azonenberg> oh
<whitequark> someone I know has herpes in his ocular nerve and there's no way to kill it, period
<rqou> wut
<rqou> i didn't even know that was possible
<azonenberg> rvense: that's a slightly different translation than the one i'm used to
<whitequark> "Keratitis caused by HSV is the most common cause of cornea-derived blindness in developed nations."
<rvense> azonenberg: billy bragg's?
<rvense> i like it
<azonenberg> rvense: i'm more familiar with the Paul Robeson version, although i dont know if he did the original translation or not
<rqou> so how can you get herpes in your eye?
<rqou> as opposed to your willy like a normal person? :P
<whitequark> HSV-1 is the one that gives you mouth sores usually
<whitequark> HSV-2 is the one that causes genital warts
<azonenberg> There's a bunch of herpes viruses beyond those too
<whitequark> by the way, HSV-2 is one of the major causes of cervical cancer
<azonenberg> like the one that gives you plantar warts
<whitequark> yep
<whitequark> herpes viruses are extremely common and they're also very nasty because they really mess with your genome
<azonenberg> i could see that being carcinogenic
<whitequark> well, most viruses do that to some extent
<whitequark> but herpes hides inside your neurons, which are immunoprivileged
<rqou> sometimes it amazes me that humans actually work
<whitequark> there's no way to actually cure herpes
<whitequark> like, at all
<whitequark> it's literally worse than HIV, we've successfully cured HIV
<whitequark> a few times but still
<rqou> and yet some people still teach that using condoms is a sin
<azonenberg> whitequark: the only cure of herpes viruses in general that i know of is amputation
<azonenberg> Which is effectively how you get rid of warts
<whitequark> azonenberg: that doesn't actually work
<azonenberg> whitequark: it kills the surrounding tissue
<azonenberg> Then the infected part falls off
<whitequark> yes, but you're still a carrier
<azonenberg> Interesting
<whitequark> you've only fixed the symptom
<azonenberg> What about if you chopped off the whole foot/leg?
* azonenberg has never actually looked into how these things spread
<whitequark> HSV-1 lives in trigeminal nerve and HSV-2 in sacral nerves
<azonenberg> Or how much of the individual is contagious
<whitequark> you'd need to lop off the head or the entire lower body.
<azonenberg> Lol
<azonenberg> Decapitation is a pretty good cure for most diseases
<azonenberg> Side effects may include neck pain, blurred vision, dizziness, and death
<whitequark> in case of uterine herpes, uterectomy does help, against cancer that is
<whitequark> you're still a carrier but in cells that aren't quite as susceptible
<whitequark> your immune system will still fail to contain it but you'll die from something else
<whitequark> depressing isn't it
<rqou> but any day now sillycon valley will figure out how to just transfer your brain to a computer and solve all of these problems! /s
<rvense> rqou: yeah, no.
<rqou> yes, i do remember the "we can't even build a cochlear implant well, and that's 'easy'" discussion
<azonenberg> rqou: not "a computer"
<azonenberg> "the cloud"
<rqou> oh right
<rqou> not buzzword-compliant
<rvense> rqou: every part of that statement is false! sv won't figure anything out, if htey did it wouldn't put your brain in a computer, and even if it did, that wouldn't solve any problems
<azonenberg> imagine how much better facebook could do ad targeting if they had your entire consciousness to datamine
<rqou> also this oooold (by interwebs standards) video is quite relevant still: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFe9wiDfb0E
<azonenberg> rvense: reminds me of the general objection i have to computers getting less and less good i/o
<azonenberg> higher input latency
<azonenberg> small screens (though high resolution, at least)
<azonenberg> moving from mouse/keyboard to touch
<azonenberg> or in some cases headless with speech
<azonenberg> The amount of data i can accurately transfer from me to the computer and back per secondis going *down*
<azonenberg> i fear that if BCIs ever take off they'll be even slower / less accurate than talking
<azonenberg> and it will be hard to find keyboard
<rqou> lol
<rqou> azonenberg: i take it you don't like neurosky? :P
<rqou> but the neurosky-powered cat ears are adorable :P
<whitequark> azonenberg: toda's BCIs are at something like one character per minute
<azonenberg> i would gladly use a BCI that is through-the-skull (no implanted electrodes), works well in high auditory/EM noise environments
<rqou> yes, that matches my experience with neurosky actually :P
<rqou> ~2 bits per minute with that toy
<rvense> i just.. really like typing
<azonenberg> Is coupled to a high resolution display
<azonenberg> And lets me type ~90wpm or higher
<azonenberg> Based on talking to some folks who do lots of DSP, this is unlikely to ever happen and may not even be possible
<azonenberg> iow, the necessary signal is too blurred by going through bone and tissue
<azonenberg> Such a BCI probably will require implanted electrodes
<azonenberg> If it can be made at all
<rvense> i occasionally have tablet envy because it seems so intuitive, but after a few minutes with one i tend to feel like apple got the basic form factor right with the powerbook 100 and all the designers can just go home
<azonenberg> rvense: lol
<azonenberg> the UI on my lecroy dso is nice but i kinda wish it had a mouse
<rqou> i actually had a "tablet" laptop a while back
<azonenberg> i'd be so much more accurate/faster with it
<azonenberg> you could have smaller menus that stay more out of the way
<rqou> it was a "no-longer-first-gen-but-not-modern-win10-ready" one, and it _sucked_
<azonenberg> That's kinda the UI inspiration i have in mind for my next-gen scope UI app
<azonenberg> "like a lecroy, but meant for mouse/keyboard use and no giant marshmallow buttons"
<rqou> the concept is just not that great, and the hardware/firmware was buggy AF
<azonenberg> i like the clean, context-based ui
<azonenberg> only pulling up the things you need
<azonenberg> But i'd do away with the physical knobs and buttons too
<rqou> probably much more worth it to just buy one of those wacom tablet+screen things rather than having your entire computer in "tablet" form factor
<whitequark> azonenberg: re DSP: correct
<azonenberg> I did start looking into a fun project years ago, never got funded
<azonenberg> (this was early grad school)
<azonenberg> It was an EMG-based keyboard
<azonenberg> a wristband-type thing that detects signals going to the muscles that move your fingers
<azonenberg> and does a kinematic simulation to figure out where your fingers are
<rqou> that sounds significantly more plausible
<whitequark> yep
<azonenberg> Then let you "air type" and use it as a usb HID device
<azonenberg> The intended audience was finger amputees
<azonenberg> the nerves are intact so you could interpolate the position of that finger on a virtual keyboard and still type with it
<rqou> for those with intact fingers, various "maker" types have built this with flex sensors and/or conductive pads over the years
<azonenberg> This was targeting an all-bones-gone double finger amputee who volunteered to be a test subject
<azonenberg> It was a recent injury and the nerves were presumed to have not atrophied significantly
<azonenberg> (circa 2010)
<rvense> azonenberg: could you add a BCI to inject a tactile sensation so it feels like alps switches
<azonenberg> We didnt get nearly that far, lol
<rqou> a while back scanlime did a stream where i learned that assistive technologies _suck_
<rqou> like, a lot
<azonenberg> we got to initial "seems plausible" territory then never got funding to continue
<azonenberg> never got remotely close to a prototype
<rvense> azonenberg: that's a shame.
<rqou> seriously, why is assistive technology so far behind the curve
<rvense> rqou: it's disruptive enough
<rvense> *not
<azonenberg> rqou: think like a capitalist
<azonenberg> There are more intact people with money than disabled people with money
<rvense> hockey sticks
<azonenberg> "disabled" is also a wide range and no one product would work for them all
<rqou> but but but, what if i can bilk an insurance company?
<rqou> or do they already do that?
<azonenberg> So the potential market for an assistive technology is limited out of the box, simply because of what it is
<rvense> it's the tom lehrer joke about the doctor who specialized in diseases of the rich
<azonenberg> And i'd imagine the only reason things are as far as they've got is government intervention
<azonenberg> like "windows has to include some way for a person who can't use a keyboard to operate it"
<whitequark> there's some foss assistive tech
<whitequark> both gtk and qt include it
<whitequark> no idea if they just cloned the windows stuff
<rqou> does it work?
<rqou> the other day rich felker was complaining about not being able to find a good foss TTS
<azonenberg> My guess is, the foss people are doing it for love rather than money
<azonenberg> and actually care about usability
<azonenberg> but my point stands, there's no money in assistive tech
<rqou> i do remember at one point some website interviewed some guy who was 3d-printing prosthetic hands
<rqou> and they worked _better_ than commercial ones
<rqou> for significantly less cost too
<rqou> recently i actually did try out the voice assistant tools on windows/macos (not linux) and they're rather "not good"
<rqou> too much software is just not annotated correctly to work well with it
<rqou> iirc windows/microsoft stuff was most consistent
<rqou> but browsers/websites _suck_ at this
<zkms> yeah even with the case of IMEs software sometimes breaks, i cant imagine how bad it'd be with voice assistant tools
<rqou> yeah i just completely _don't get_ that
<rqou> ~1 billion people potentially need IMEs to use your software
<rqou> to be fair, the ime stack on linux is a disaster
<zkms> i completely forgot how it works and honestly that's been good
<rqou> afaik there is one mechanism that is hooked into x somehow
<rqou> and then GTK and QT both have their own _different_ hooks for IMEs
<rqou> so i guess god help you if you're using wx or SDL or "herp derp poked EGL directly somehow"
<rqou> and i have no idea what wayland does
<rqou> and on top of all of this it is still somehow very common to invoke it incorrectly somehow
<rqou> such that fcitx has a hack for a certain type of incorrect invocation
<rqou> (which is not the same as how sublime text does it incorrectly, necessitating a different hack)
<rqou> ahh shit
<rqou> and apparently i forgot to restore the fix when upgrading sublime
<whitequark> lol you're actually using my sublime hack?
<rqou> no, i'm using a different hack
<whitequark> oh
<whitequark> that's even funnier
<rqou> some taiwanese guy wrote a less awful hack that apparently only works with fcitx
<rqou> apparently some japanese people also have a hack that only works with a particular _japanese_ IME (not fcitx)
<rqou> anyways, why do "westerners" _not_ use IMEs?
<rqou> they just use awful hacks like dead keys instead
<zkms> i managed to get xmonad and fcitx playing together
<zkms> and i completely forgot all i did after it worked
<zkms> so i have no knowledge of any of this
<rqou> O_o
<rqou> another chinese speaker?
<zkms> no >_> i use anthy to type JP text
<rqou> wait, weebs/JP speakers use fcitx for that?
<rqou> i thought there was a different framework that they all preferred?
<rqou> also, i love (/s) how the preferred IME framework for CJK(V) seems to _not_ be the one that "desktop environment people" picked by default
<rqou> iirc there was a fight about that actually
<rqou> apparently "listen to users" is too difficult an idea
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<rqou> ugh, rcf doesn't seem to have an "anything but this route" option
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<rqou> azonenberg: ping?
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<mithro> afternoon everyone!
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<jn__> pie_: nice
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<rqou> woot i think i have the mapping between quartus<->physical names properly fuzzed
<rqou> time to mine for patterns
<rqou> azonenberg, awygle, maybe pointfree: anybody want to play a game?
<rqou> distill this list (https://github.com/rqou/project-chibi/blob/master/wirerpt19.txt) into a set of simple rules
<sorear> Can you explain the format?
<rqou> numbers on the left of the equals sign are my own coordinate system
<rqou> numbers on the right are quartus's
<rqou> R4 is a horizontal wire
<rqou> C4 is a vertical wire
<rqou> L/R/U/D are left/right/up/down
<rqou> sec, let me draw some pictures
<sorear> Is there relevant quartus documentation?
<rqou> um...
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<rqou> this is my coordinate system
<rqou> exceptions: the leftmost logic column does not have L wires
<rqou> instead the io column to the left (not shown) has 8 extra R wires
<rqou> the rightmost logic column does not have R wires
<rqou> instead the bits that normally control R wires control extra L wires (that i've labeled L2)
<rqou> oh, and top io tiles have D wires
<rqou> and bottom io tiles have U wires
<rqou> 10 each
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<rqou> ok, for right-going wires there seems to be three possible permutations
<rqou> and they move along diagonals
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