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<NinjaKrill>
Hello, is anyone here familar with the Shoes GUI toolkit and who could help out a complete beginner to both Ruby and Shoes write a simple program which downloads a file? ;0
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<NinjaKrill>
...anyone? ;(
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<havenwood>
Ninj, err left already?
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<itstooloud>
hello ?
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<fade2000>
How would you go about quantifying the specificity of a method's signature?
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<Mateusz_>
What is the proper method of storing variable, gem specific data? I was using module variables (@some_data) in GemName:Configuration module but for some reason this variable randomly turns into null. I am not usre is it because I have bug somewhere or is it because I ma using simply wrong method to store data.
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<apeiros_>
Mateusz_: variables don't spontaneously change their value, no. so you have a bug.
<apeiros_>
note that @ivar are instance variables, not module variables.
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<Mateusz_>
apeiros_: So to store data specific to module I should rather use @@something?
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<apeiros_>
Mateusz_: I am not sure how you jump to that conclusion, I didn't say that. no, @ivars are fine.
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<Mateusz_>
OK, thanks.
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<imperator>
greetings programs
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<imperator>
fragamus - "we strawberry" ?
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<ravins>
HI I'm new to Ruby, I want to learn by creating TODO app in ruby, but I'm not getting about running ruby on browser
<ravins>
there are lot of confusion for me with web servers :(
<ravins>
please help me
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<LordNelthon>
ravins: Are you using rails or just ruby code?
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<apeiros_>
ravins: ruby doesn't run on the browser, only javascript does. what you do is you run ruby on the server side and generate html/css/js with it and send that to the browser.
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<apeiros_>
depends - is opal a compiler (transpiler?) or a VM?
<apeiros_>
iirc it compiles ruby to js
<apeiros_>
and then it'd still only be js…
<ravins>
@LordNelthon I'm using ruby code
<ravins>
I think I should start with Ruby first
<ravins>
then move to Rails frameworks
<ravins>
right?
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<ravins>
I've done php and I can see output on browser just by starting xampp
<havenwood>
ravins: Ruby is a great language. You may or may not want to use Rails. It depends on what you're making.
<ravins>
but with Ruby I'm not getting it run to see
<apeiros_>
ravins: what are you doing to get ruby to run?
<ravins>
havenwood I like to start with something like TODO
<ravins>
with mysql as backend
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<ravins>
there is lots of confusion like for web server there are unicorn, thin, passenger etc..
<ravins>
totally blank :(
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<LordNelthon>
ravins: when you start xampp it starts apache that is the webserver that runs the php.
<havenwood>
ravins: Those are all Rack web servers. Puma, Unicorn, Passenger and Thin are all very nice. (Nicer than Webrick, which is the basic default.)
<ravins>
so you means apache/ngnix not help to run ruby code
<havenwood>
ravins: So any Rack app can use any one of those web servers, just swap one out and another in.
<havenwood>
ravins: It is popular to use nginx or apache as a reverse proxy to your Rack web server. But it isn't necessary. It helps with load balancing and serving static files quickly.
<jhass>
apeiros_: afaik it's a transpiler but also has a runtime, basically an always included js file for the stdlib
<ravins>
sorry by not getting "Rack app"? you means "Ruby app"
<apeiros_>
jhass: so still js :)
<havenwood>
ravins: Rails is one of many Rack adapters. Rack is a RubyGem. You can install it like: gem install rack
<apeiros_>
ravins: rack is a piece of ruby code which sits between the webserver and the ruby webapp
<apeiros_>
ravins: if so, then probably the easiest is to install passenger and use it with your apache
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<havenwood>
arBmind: Rack adapters include Rails, Sinatra, Lotus, Roda, etc. Rack is Rack. Middleware is optional. You already listed a bunch of the popular Rack web servers (except Puma).
<havenwood>
ravins: You can write a plain Rack app, but if you try you'll find it's a bit tedious. Hence the many Rack adapters to give you some sugar.
<ravins>
I would like to use ngnix some of my friend tell me about this
<ravins>
havewood ok
<ravins>
havewood: ok
<apeiros_>
ok, lets start with the easiest then
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<apeiros_>
install rack: gem install rack
<havenwood>
Rack it up!
<ravins>
I've ruby installed on my ubuntu, so this not means I already have rack
<apeiros_>
no
<ravins>
ok
<apeiros_>
rack is a gem. gems are ruby libraries and/or executables
<apeiros_>
hence: `gem install rack`
<LordNelthon>
ravins: to develop a web app in ruby i recommend rails, but you need to know about MVC. Do you know laravel or symphony or code igniter? if you know any of the frameworks i mentioned you know the essencial to use rails framework. and then people already gave you the details about web servers for rack. but its up to you to use or not the rails.
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<ravins>
apeiros_: ok
<apeiros_>
then open a file: demo_app.ru. put this into it: `run proc { |env| [200, {"Content-Type" => "text/html"}, ["Hello World"]] } `
<apeiros_>
and then you do `rackup demo_app.ru`
<ravins>
LordNelthon: I've done codeigniter before
<havenwood>
ravins: the `rackup` executable is part of the Rack gem you installed
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<apeiros_>
that's your minimal ruby+rack app
<LordNelthon>
ravins: you can think about ruby = ubuntu and gems = ubuntu packages. gem command is like apt-get or aptitude, with it you install "addons" called gems that extends ruby.
<apeiros_>
whoops, should have been text/plain, not text/html. but luckily browser are used to get lied to.
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<ravins>
apeiros_: ok
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<apeiros_>
ravins: got it to work?
<ravins>
yes
<LordNelthon>
ravins: if you want to develop with controllers, models and views (MVC) check rails. but for now to learn the language use the ruby + rack
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<ravins>
wooooo, apeiros_ thanks
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<ravins>
so here I've create a simple server
<ravins>
without using puma, thin etc..
<ravins>
right ?
<apeiros_>
rackup will use whatever is there for the webserver
<apeiros_>
worst case it uses webrick which is in stdlib (stdlib is installed along with ruby itself)
<havenwood>
ravins: A nice little Rack app. It's probably being served up by WEBrick. Check the output when it launched.
<ravins>
LordNelthon: yes, I'm looking into ruby
<apeiros_>
if you do `gem install puma`, then rackup will start the app using puma.
<havenwood>
ravins: ^
<ravins>
yes it say webrick in console
<havenwood>
ravins: It's just as easy with Puma. But faster and more reliable.
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<ravins>
LordNelthon: I'm following "programming Ruby" by Dave Thomas
<apeiros_>
havenwood: depends. with puma you have to remember to write your app thread-safe.
<apeiros_>
and with unicorn, you have to remember to write it fork-safe.
<havenwood>
apeiros_: So use Roda. :)
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<havenwood>
Freeze ALL THE THINGS! \o/
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<apeiros_>
havenwood: that magically makes all your app level code thread-/fork-safe? :)
<ravins>
my friend told me to use thin with ngnix by proxing it, I'm trying to understanding what was He trying to say :)
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<havenwood>
apeiros_: The Roda apps are meant to be frozen in production, so that helps a ton with thread safety. It also provides a thread safe cache to use. Of course you *can* do things..
<apeiros_>
ravins: what you need to do for that: configure your nginx as a proxy. run `gem install thin`. and now `rackup demo_app.ru` will run your app with thin.
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<havenwood>
apeiros_: I've been enjoying using it. It's extremely well-done in my opinion.
<apeiros_>
havenwood: you can't possibly freeze all the things. unless you don't want to process any user input whatsoever…
<havenwood>
apeiros_: Users... what a pain!
<havenwood>
So much easier to write apps without users.
<apeiros_>
havenwood: and their browsers! teh horror!
<havenwood>
uhg
<havenwood>
The humanity!
<apeiros_>
so much easier to write m2m apps
<apeiros_>
api-only
<havenwood>
mmhmm
<ravins>
Ok, now console says `Thin web server (v1.6.3 codename Protein Powder)`
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<ravins>
means now I'm running new web server instead of webrick
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<havenwood>
ravins: Yup, that'll be able to handle a lot more requests at once.
<ravins>
or need ngnix here
<havenwood>
ravins: You *can* point Thin right at port 80 and not reverse proxy from nginx.
<apeiros_>
ravins: webrick *is* a webserver
<havenwood>
ravins: you just switched from one web server to another
<apeiros_>
thin is also a webserver. so are puma, and unicorn, and nginx, and apache.
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<apeiros_>
webrick/thin/puma/unicorn are webservers written in ruby (and some of them with C extensions)
<ravins>
but seems like there is not in-built module for ruby in nginx and apache, thats' why we have thin, puma unicorns
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<apeiros_>
ravins: no, that's not the reason
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<apeiros_>
the equivalent to mod_php for apache is passenger
<ravins>
sorry if my questions are wierd
<apeiros_>
ie., apache does not have php built-in either. you need an extension - mod_php. same applies to ruby. the most prominent ruby module for apache and nginx is passenger.
<ravins>
ok
<apeiros_>
there are various reasons why people choose different setups
<ravins>
ok
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<havenwood>
ravins: For example, Unicorn chokes on slow clients. So it's popular to put Nginx in front of Unicorn as a buffering reverse proxy. Alternatively you could use Rainbows, which is a Rack web server that in certain configurations does load balancing and handles slow clients itself, just not as quickly as Nginx. For each there are reasons why you might set it up certain ways and they have different performance and
<havenwood>
memory usage characteristics on top of other considerations.
<ravins>
Ok
<ravins>
so I can run my TODO app without Nginx or apache need
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<havenwood>
ravins: yes
<ravins>
I'm flying :)
<ravins>
Thanks a lot you guys are super
<ravins>
I'll avoid PHP :)
<havenwood>
ravins: You're welcome, happy coding!
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<itstooloud>
can anyone help me with the ruby spaceship operator
<apeiros_>
itstooloud: we will know when you ask a question
<itstooloud>
i don't understand how it's used to sort arrays. i understand that it returns -1, 0, 1 but every time i see it implemented this way, the explanation attached to it is poor: def <=> (other_person) # to compare two people, use last names
<jhass>
just an aside: probably wanted a sort_by there
<apeiros_>
array sort compares two items per time to determine which one is ordered before the other. to do that, it uses <=>.
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<apeiros_>
and `a <=> b` returning <0 means a < b, returning 0 means a == b, and returning >0 means a > b
<itstooloud>
ok but i don't understand why it's necessary. ruby already knows the alphabet and that 1<2
<apeiros_>
itstooloud: and how does it know the alphabet? i.e., how does it figure that 1 < 2?
<apeiros_>
itstooloud: it uses <=> there too. and apart from that, not all arrays are made of strings or numbers. you can have an array of any kind of objects.
<itstooloud>
because i can write 1<2 and it will return TRUE, or "a" < "b"
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<apeiros_>
itstooloud: but it does not use <. it uses <=>.
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<itstooloud>
ok, in this example:
<itstooloud>
array = [1, 2, 3]
<itstooloud>
array.sort { |a, b| a <=> b }
<itstooloud>
vs this
<itstooloud>
array.sort { |a, b| b <=> a }
<itstooloud>
the evaluated portion of the block is returning a -1, 0, or 1
<itstooloud>
how is that telling the block which direction to sort in?
<apeiros_>
as said before: if it returns -1, a is sorted first
<apeiros_>
if it returns 0, it doesn't matter which of a & b comes first because their ordering is equal
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<apeiros_>
and the rest is logic. with a = 1 and b = 2, a <=> b returns -1, therefore a is sorted before b
<apeiros_>
and if you reverse the operation, namely doing b <=> a, it returns 1, therefore b is sorted before a, effectively reversing sort order
<itstooloud>
thanks, yes, i've looked at the explanations and this is still confusing. that is, i know how to implement it based on the explanation but i don't know why it should work that way. for example, if you were to remove the evaluation and just put "-1" there instead of "a<=>b", what are you telling the interpreter?
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<apeiros_>
you are telling Array.sort that every `a` it compares to a `b` is smaller
<apeiros_>
which can't possibly be and will therefore result in an unpredictable order
<apeiros_>
itstooloud: you do realize that the block is called many times, right?
<apeiros_>
in an array with N items, the block is evaluated N*log(N) on average
<itstooloud>
i do now that you point it out but seriously i think that's where my confusion comes from
<itstooloud>
|a,b| refers to each time the interpreter has to compare two elements
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<apeiros_>
|a,b| is the arguments the block receives when it is called.
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<apeiros_>
just like in `def compare(a,b) … end` a and b are arguments the method `compare` receives when it is called.
<apeiros_>
itstooloud: maybe you should go ahead and write an Array#sort yourself.
<apeiros_>
see how sorting an array works.
<itstooloud>
thanks, i'm going to keep reading with this in mind
<itstooloud>
i will do that
<apeiros_>
when you've done that, abstract the comparison of the elements
<apeiros_>
so that you can sort arbitrary objects, not only ones you know about
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<Mirimal>
Good eveninig here! I how funny question. By using Enumerator#peek it's possible to get next object in enumerator, but is it possile to get curent one?
<Mirimal>
I have*
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<jhass>
Mirimal: got some code that motivated that question?
<jhass>
I'd be curious what you would need that for
<Mirimal>
Sure. Just let me paste it to gist.
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<apeiros_>
next gives you the current + moves the enumerator
<apeiros_>
oh, dear. didn't even check due to the gist announcement
<jhass>
yeah, it's weird
* apeiros_
needs a smarter irc client
<apeiros_>
maybe accident
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<jhass>
weechat \o/
<jhass>
smart filter is amazing
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<LesZedCB>
Hi all. I've got a question about strings and symbols.
<havenwood>
LesZedCB: hi
<LesZedCB>
i'm curious is anybody knows if/why symbols will still be a distinct citizen from strings now that a couple things are true:
<LesZedCB>
first, that symbols are garbage collected
<havenwood>
LesZedCB: There are Strings, frozen Strings, mortal Symbols and immortal Symbols.
<LesZedCB>
and secondly that "string".freeze.object_id == "string".freeze.object_id
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<LesZedCB>
huh and I guess the distinction with immortal symbols is that they aren't garbage collected?
<LesZedCB>
and frozen strings are still garbage collected?
<apeiros_>
I think only to_sym'ed symbols get collected, no?
<havenwood>
LesZedCB: Immortal Symbols are created at the implementation level. They're not GCed. You can create mortal Symbols. Yeah, immortal Symbols aren't GCed.
<LesZedCB>
so can you create immortal symbols?
<apeiros_>
afair literal symbols in your code are immortal too
<havenwood>
apeiros_: I thought not.
<apeiros_>
I may be wrong, though. haven't taken a close look yet.
<apeiros_>
havenwood: why gc them? literals are comparatively rare anyway.
<LesZedCB>
ok cool. Yeah, I was just wondering if there was a reason for even making symbols still a distinct object type
<apeiros_>
also they're guaranteed to be a closed set. they don't grow arbitrarily
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<apeiros_>
LesZedCB: symbols should still compare faster than strings, given that it is an identity check always
<LesZedCB>
but if they are garbage collected, how can you guarantee that?
<apeiros_>
how does that influence that guarantee?
<apeiros_>
you can't compare a gc'ed symbol with an un-gc'ed
<apeiros_>
otherwise you'd have a zombie symbol :)
<LesZedCB>
sure, so maybe i'm confused about the semantics of an identity check
<LesZedCB>
identity != object_id?
<apeiros_>
identity check means same object
<apeiros_>
and yes, same object has same object_id
<LesZedCB>
so, then object_id would be the same?
<apeiros_>
yes
<LesZedCB>
ok, so if they are garbage collected, can you still guarantee they would have the same object_id after it has been reinstantiated?
<apeiros_>
show me a case where that does not hold true
<apeiros_>
they don't need the same object_id
<apeiros_>
after reinstantiation, that is
<darix>
LesZedCB: they wont get GC-ed if they are still in use. so if you create :foo and compare it later in your code. it will be the same object. it just might not have the same objectid that the gc-ed :foo had
<LesZedCB>
but if they don't need the same object_id, then what do they compare?
<apeiros_>
LesZedCB: again, show me a concrete example
<LesZedCB>
ok, so lets say I have a rails app running with some method that has a param that only gets used once a year
<LesZedCB>
presumably the param symbol would get GC'd in that time
<LesZedCB>
oooh
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<LesZedCB>
duh
<apeiros_>
:)
<darix>
LesZedCB: but if you assign the params[:key] = value
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<darix>
then you implicitely created :key again
<LesZedCB>
right, then it has been reallocated
* apeiros_
heard the penny fall
<LesZedCB>
lol
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<apeiros_>
you can't compare to the gc'ed anyway. and the new one necessarily has the same id as "the other" new one.
<LesZedCB>
haha, well, thanks for working that one through with me. a little embarassing
<apeiros_>
or short: even with GC'ed symbols, it's still guaranteed that at any point during the runtime, there are no two different symbol objects with the same string value.
<havenwood>
apeiros_: yeah, you're correct of course
<LesZedCB>
right of course
<havenwood>
makes sense
<apeiros_>
I do seem to remember a case where string comparison is faster than symbol comparison. can't summon up anymore why that's the case.
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<LesZedCB>
and presumably, if a symbol is garbage collected, then any references to the symbol are also GC'd?
<apeiros_>
wrong way round
<apeiros_>
when can you gc an object?
<LesZedCB>
lol, when there are no references.
<LesZedCB>
wow, i should just stop asking questions :)
<apeiros_>
;-)
<apeiros_>
IMO better ask a stupid question and be smarter after it than stay stupid
<LesZedCB>
haha thanks I think? :P
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<apeiros_>
sorry. I didn't mean to imply you were stupid.
<LesZedCB>
no worries, i got what you meant!
<apeiros_>
s/stupid/ignorant about the thing in question/
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<LesZedCB>
so then, getting back to my original curiosity, is it actually faster in the long termto have distinct objects for string and symbol?
<apeiros_>
I'm not sure. as said, symbol comparison should in most cases be faster than string comparison.
<LesZedCB>
because when a symbol is created, it would have to be in the symbol table in the first place
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<LesZedCB>
and therefore looked up in the symbol table
<apeiros_>
the other costs - I'm not sure about. I'd guess creating a symbol is slightly more expensive.
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<LesZedCB>
right, which I guess would make sense
<apeiros_>
also, frozen strings iirc only share object_id when they're literals
<apeiros_>
but there too - I might be wrong about it. I haven't taken a deep look into those newer details of ruby.
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<LesZedCB>
gets.freeze.to_s == gets.freeze.to_s with the same input evals to true
<darix>
LesZedCB: the more interesting question
<apeiros_>
but in my current work, I dropped symbols almost completely. I only use symbols for internal ids. like named params, send, attr* stuff.
<apeiros_>
as said, deduplication only happens for literals.
<LesZedCB>
aperios_: my example used input from the command line, no literals and still eval'd to true
<apeiros_>
LesZedCB: pro-tip: use tab completion for nicks
<LesZedCB>
apeiros_: oooh
<LesZedCB>
thanks
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<LesZedCB>
i'm newish to irc
<apeiros_>
but it's cute that you even typed my tail ;-)
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<darix>
*cuts apeiros' tail off*
<apeiros_>
darix: sadly irc doesn't allow multiple clients to log into the same nick
<apeiros_>
(yes, I know, bouncer… one day…)
<darix>
strictly speaking neither does jabber
<darix>
apeiros: naw use irssi+tmux :p
<apeiros_>
not an option. the other client is not accessible from outside.
<apeiros_>
and I'd like to keep it that way :)
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<apeiros_>
since it came up in pm: I don't allow SSHing into my home computers
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<LesZedCB>
so my thought is that could symbols be effectively dropped as a language feature by just making syntax like :symbol be semantically the same as "symbol".freeze