apeiros changed the topic of #ruby-lang to: Ruby 2.0.0-p353: http://ruby-lang.org (Ruby 1.9.3-p484) || Paste >3 lines of text on http://gist.github.com || RubyConf 2013 at http://www.justin.tv/confreaks
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<yorickpeterse> morning
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<andrewvos> whitequark: You abuot?
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<Armadon> hey
<Armadon> how are you all doing
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<Armadon> so... I have ruby 2.0.0p353 installed
<Armadon> and I just pulled down rails
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<Armadon> and it fails to run via the rails server command, complaining about Time zones
<Armadon> unintialized constant TZInfo::InvalidTimezoneIdentifier
<Armadon> and if I open up the repl...
<Armadon> and do Thread.current[:time_zone] I get nil
<r0bgleeson> hey Armadon
<r0bgleeson> why would you expect Thread.current[:time_zone] to not return nil?
<Armadon> I just expected it to be set by ruby...
<Armadon> I'm extremely new :)
<r0bgleeson> ah
<Armadon> come from a .net world
<r0bgleeson> how are you getting this error?
<Armadon> rails server
<r0bgleeson> could you paste the backtrace?
<Armadon> sure
<r0bgleeson> don't forget to use https://gist.github.com ;)
<Armadon> ofcourse :D
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<r0bgleeson> ah
<r0bgleeson> well
<r0bgleeson> you are running a beta version of rails
<r0bgleeson> any reason for that?
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<Armadon> not at all
<Armadon> let me try pull down a non pre version :D
<r0bgleeson> that might give you some better luck
<Armadon> pre-release :P
<Armadon> ok
<Armadon> I'd still like to understand what the issue is though
<r0bgleeson> i'm not sure. it looks like a problem in rails and not anything you're doing.
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<Armadon> thanks for the help ;) much appreciated
<r0bgleeson> so it might be a problem with the beta
<r0bgleeson> np
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<Armadon> what editors do you guys use?
<Armadon> Sublime seems to me like such a refreshing "editor"
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<lianj> vim or emacs ofc
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<jalkstal> Hi
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<jalkstal> I'm having some problem when running sass, I don't quite understand the error but it has something to do with ruby and gems. https://gist.github.com/johan-/8086466
<jalkstal> I'm only using Ruby to install the sass gem, so I'm not very familiar with it.
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<r0bgleeson> Armadon: I use emacs, but i know a lot of people who use sublime and enjoy it. emacs/vim isn't for everybody.
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<|jemc|> yeah, I'm one of those people who enjoys sublime text
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<|jemc|> I also successfully converted one of my vim friends because it has some limited vim compatibility with the 'Vintage' package
<r0bgleeson> i heard about that. my whole workflow exists in tmux. i think i'd find it hard to move to sublime/GUI editor.
<|jemc|> yeah, it's by no means a drop in replacement for vim
<|jemc|> but my typing style doesn't use the home row and I've never broken through the vim-keys usability barrier because of it
<r0bgleeson> oh yeah, i was a vim user for around two years. i am now an emacs user. i wasn't happy with it.
<r0bgleeson> VimL isn't great
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<r0bgleeson> i think that was my biggest problem with it
<|jemc|> heh, shows how much I know about emacs/vim if I didn't know which one tmux was a part of :P
<r0bgleeson> emacs has crazy stuff like https://github.com/cask/cask which is like bundler for emacs, with a Gemfile DSL included.
<|jemc|> yeah, emacs looks crazy extensible from what I've seen
<|jemc|> just never dug into it
<r0bgleeson> yup, thats what i love about it
<|jemc|> I think sublime text hits a nice sweet spot between intuitiveness/apporachability and power/extensibility
<r0bgleeson> definitely
<r0bgleeson> editor is only a tool
<|jemc|> it has some extensibility limitations though, which mainly come down to that fact that you can't extend anything that digs into the closed-source part of it
<|jemc|> there have been some attempts, for example, to make it be able to handle one of its 'text editor' panes being a virtual terminal
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<r0bgleeson> ahh
<|jemc|> and there was significant progress, but it's just not going to ever be a _clean_ implementation
<r0bgleeson> yeah, I think it has a python API and that's all?
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<Armadon> the question I have about vim is, is it really that much more efficient than a person clicking around with a mouse
<|jemc|> yeah, you write python that basically gets 'require'ed in
<Armadon> I know it's probably an over simplification
<Armadon> but, does anyone have a demonstration of the power of VIM?
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<|jemc|> but there are sub-python customizability stuff that can be done as wel
<Armadon> I've been playing around with it for a while
<r0bgleeson> it is much different and probably will drive you insane while you try to get use to it
<|jemc|> most of the configuration can be done with json and xml
<|jemc|> and then you write python plugins that create new behavior and can also be customized by json and xml
<Armadon> and then I see a couple of guys saying... 15 years in VIM and I don't suggest anyone using it... he just says that he spent his whole career just editing his vim config
<r0bgleeson> yeah i mean python is a good language
<r0bgleeson> but lisp is more fun to me right now
<r0bgleeson> which is another reason i went for emacs
<|jemc|> ah
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<r0bgleeson> Armadon: well, vim is a very old editor. it's a modal editor. when you become proficient you can become very fast and efficient with it. it is also hackable. all the same is true for emacs(probably more so)
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<|jemc|> I think I'd prefer python over lisp for most tasks if I had to choose between the two
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<|jemc|> before I got into ruby I was a python-above-all guy
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<|jemc|> at least for interpreted language
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<r0bgleeson> my personal choice for emacs is that the key bindings are natural to me and I'm fast with them. it has a great selection of plugins out there, a great platform/language to develop on, so i guess it has little to do with editor abilities when you think about it
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<r0bgleeson> |jemc|: yeah, I got interested in clojure, so that's why i kind of took the dive into it
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<r0bgleeson> i was never interested in lisp before that im sad to say
<|jemc|> I've had bad experiences with lisp because I have to use a terrible stripped-down bastardized version of it for AutoCAD scripting at my job >_<
<|jemc|> so I can't say I've really given it a fair shake
<r0bgleeson> it seems like a cool language
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<|jemc|> well, lisp may be, but AutoLISP is not
<r0bgleeson> the Cask version of the Bundler DSL: https://github.com/robgleeson/dots/blob/master/.emacs.d/Cask
<r0bgleeson> its pretty nice
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<r0bgleeson> python feels too similar to ruby to put a lot of time into but i could be wrong
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<|jemc|> yeah, python has a few circumstantial advantages over ruby
<|jemc|> but few intrinsic advantages, in my opinion
<|jemc|> with the circumstantial advantages being things like
<|jemc|> some of the packages that are available
<|jemc|> a more mature and well-organized communnity, on average
<r0bgleeson> packages ruby doesn't offer you mean?
<r0bgleeson> or just better libraries?
<|jemc|> meh, a combination of both I think
<|jemc|> but in ruby I usually end up creating what I need anyway
<|jemc|> also, the python core/stdlib docs are more organized and extensive and easy to read through
<r0bgleeson> yeah, that's a hard problem, i don't know how we can get better libraries, i just try to put a ton of care into mine
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<r0bgleeson> ah yeah for sure, ruby docs arent great but the content is starting to improve a lot
<|jemc|> yeah, and I don't mean to insult ruby users as a whole
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<|jemc|> but I think part of the problem comes down to rails making website programming a little _too_ easy :P
<r0bgleeson> the process for looking up a stdlib or core API in ruby is always painful for me, I google it, and the first hit is usually served by rdoc. its horrible to use, i can't find anything, just hate it
<r0bgleeson> i cmd+f to look for methods etc
<|jemc|> I don't use rails (or do any web programming), but it seems like a lot of ruby users are really rails users who flounder when they need to use vanilla ruby
<|jemc|> yeah, I instead use ri and show-source in pry now
<r0bgleeson> thats a certainity
<|jemc|> but before that, it was the same haphazard googling you described
<r0bgleeson> rails tore down the walls a bit when it came to whats required
<r0bgleeson> that has good and bads
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<|jemc|> yeah, and it's an interesting dilemma because ruby has this intrinsic property of making it easier to make tools that make it easier for your users
<r0bgleeson> i don't think it's they don't have good vanilla ruby but that the interest sometimes stops at rails and it doesn't go into much else. anyway, i think that's just a progression over time when you're starting out.
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<r0bgleeson> rails makes what use to be really hard very easy for anyone, and its MVC anyone could use, so you could probably write something maintainable easily
<r0bgleeson> it has pitfalls after that imho
<|jemc|> yeah, it is a pretty great and admirable thing for doing things that are within its intended scope
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<|jemc|> from what I can tell, like I said I haven't used it
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<|jemc|> just might make it too easy to be a crutch
<r0bgleeson> ah it's tricky, im very conflicted about rails
<r0bgleeson> im not sure if it's a good thing anymore
<|jemc|> do you do web programming, or are you just a sidelines critic like me?
<Armadon> rails is an entry point
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<r0bgleeson> im a web programmer
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<|jemc|> so what do you use primarily? sinatra?
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<Armadon> and because of the community, it's a pretty awesome environment to be in
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<r0bgleeson> I have used sinatra, and webmachine-ruby is another one i enjoy a lot. i guess im more focused or interested in building web services/APIS instead of offering everything in one monolithic package
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<Armadon> no.... ways
<Armadon> avdi, i'm a huge fan :)
<Armadon> RubyRogues is what got my into ruby :)
<|jemc|> I ask because I'm going to have to do some web stuff soon
<r0bgleeson> sinatra is good if you're getting started
<Armadon> |jemc|, considered just using node?
<|jemc|> a 'cloud service' to integrate with the hardware package my group is going to offer
<|jemc|> neh, it should be using ruby so that I only have to write the hardware data bridge protocol in one language on both sides
<r0bgleeson> yeah, idk, if you're into it you could look at webmachine-ruby. it has a pretty interesting approach that it inherited from erlang.
<r0bgleeson> but sinatra is also good for that
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<|jemc|> well I'll check out webmachine when we get to that point
<|jemc|> I've already gazed at sinatra a bit
<|jemc|> thanks for the tip
<|jemc|> hm, and you're a rubinius guy as well, right?
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<|jemc|> at least in part?
<r0bgleeson> what do you mean? im not part of the project. im interested in it
<|jemc|> have you noticed either of those two having more or fewer problems on rubinius?
<|jemc|> yeah, I meant a user
<|jemc|> not a dev
<r0bgleeson> i think it should run sinatra okay, but i haven't tried.
<r0bgleeson> webmachine-ruby runs on rubinius fine
<r0bgleeson> someone will always address an issue if you find one though :) they're pretty good about that
<|jemc|> yeah, I like the devs' attitude in general
<|jemc|> in taking my pull requests, etc..
<r0bgleeson> yep
<r0bgleeson> pretty chill
<|jemc|> and I love I don't grimace when I'm looking at the implementation source :P
<r0bgleeson> im trying to port over rbx-tracer to rubinius 2 at the moment
<r0bgleeson> well not at the moment, but it's on my list :P
<avdi> Armadon: awesome, thanks!
<|jemc|> oh, nifty
<r0bgleeson> yeah i didn't do much, it was a few things to get it to run on rubinius2
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<r0bgleeson> the problem i have is i need Thread#set_trace_func
<r0bgleeson> and more tests :)
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<|jemc|> yeah, my hangup at the moment is with rbx not support keyword arguments
<|jemc|> but I did a pull request on the parser that knocked out a good little chunk of that work
<|jemc|> but it still needs to have an internal rubinius implementation written for the parsed tree
<r0bgleeson> ahh
<r0bgleeson> i think i saw that PR
<r0bgleeson> how come you need keywords? just want them?
<r0bgleeson> it would be a cool feature for rubinius to have as a ruby2 implementation
<r0bgleeson> i haven't been using any ruby2 stuff yet :/
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<|jemc|> well, without keyword args, I probably wouldn't have moved over from python
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<|jemc|> and I don't want to go back and add all the extra lines to my libs necessary to use explicit options hashes
<|jemc|> when 2.0 (and 2.1, now!) can support them implicitly
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<|jemc|> but yeah, they're just too nice and convenient to want to give up once you've gotten used to them
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<r0bgleeson> |jemc|: ahh wow, keyword args brought you back from python?
<|jemc|> heh, no it's not what brought me from python
<|jemc|> but without them, I would have always missed them from being used to them in python
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<r0bgleeson> yeah
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<r0bgleeson> i dont think any best practices have been established around them yet
<r0bgleeson> for ruby
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<|jemc|> what's missing, in your mind?
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<r0bgleeson> i wouldn't say anything is missing but i don't see any libraries out in the wild that use them yet. i don't think any patterns about how to use them have been setup, like i'd hate to see them replace single-arg method calls i think
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<pipecloud> r0bgleeson: Around keyword arguments?
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<r0bgleeson> yeah
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<|jemc|> well, there are really two flavors at play here
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<pipecloud> I don't see this as a new introduction, but formalizing and extending what we've already been doing with options hashes.
<|jemc|> def foo(arg, named_arg:'default_val', other_named_arg:'other')
<|jemc|> ^ the actually named variety
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<|jemc|> def foo(arg, **kwargs)
<pipecloud> avdi: Ah, a fellow irccloud user. How have you been liking it?
<|jemc|> ^ the kw_rest variety, which is essntially a drop in replacement for options={}
<r0bgleeson> |jemc|: ah right, they're always optional right?
<r0bgleeson> i think you might be able to do a strange foo: raise(ArgumentError, '...') trick
<|jemc|> yeah, the advantage of explicitly naming them is it automatically raises if you use an unspecified one
<|jemc|> and you don't have to fetch out into local variables on a seperate line)
<|jemc|> but from the perspective of a caller, it all looks the same as if an explicit options hash were employed
<r0bgleeson> yup
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<r0bgleeson> i can see why that's useful
<amclain> there IS a pattern set up for kwargs that's designed for interface compatibility. if you use kwargs instead of method parameters, the names and order of those arguments can change without the user of the library having to rewrite their code. i forget which book that's in.
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<|jemc|> the other nifty thing is you can combine the two flavors
<|jemc|> def foo(arg, named_arg:'default_val', other_named_arg:'other', **kwargs)
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<|jemc|> and kwargs collects the rest of the other named arguments
<r0bgleeson> i can think of a piece of code id like to change to use that
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<yxhuvud> >> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
<eval-in> yxhuvud => "" (https://eval.in/81931)
<r0bgleeson> yxhuvud: is that how you usually say hello?
<yxhuvud> heh
<yxhuvud> had to rejoin since I had the wrong nickname and for some reason I can't change nick while on this cahnnel.
<mpasierbski> yxhuvud: so now this is "right" nick?
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<yxhuvud> yes.
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