Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
urandom__ has joined #qi-hardware
<kristianpaul>
"Credits (images remixed by me on an M1):" ha this very cool !
<kristianpaul>
cheers to christopheradams !
* roh
was reading up about the gta04 crowd... i wonder how desperate they are for a proper case
<roh>
i was thinking about making a more rectangular case even. we'll see where it drives me
<roh>
they are really paying 50euro for a shapeways printed case which looks as ugly as the original one *g*
<kristianpaul>
shapeways is suposed to have good quality no? i guess is a desigh problem ;)
<kristianpaul>
more rectangular as the nokia N9 ? :*)
<wpwrak>
50 EUR doesn't seem to be terribly expensive
<roh>
kristianpaul: the original design is very fragile and needs thin and strong parts
<roh>
it has clips etc
<wpwrak>
and it's good that they're getting the case under their control. that ancient "china olympics" case has long overstayed its welcome
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: what's not what is happening :-)
<roh>
wpwrak: they currently are only adding one hole to the one they got already.
<wolfspraul>
at least it's consistent across the entire project :-)
<wolfspraul>
roh: I totally agree with your 'more rectangular' idea - why not? the #1 criteria is that it works for us and produces something that stands in real life
<roh>
i was more thinking if i can make something from milled acryllic, with more style and bling for the same money, while earning a few ones myself on the way
<roh>
also i want to have more small rockets on shit people carry around!11!
<wolfspraul>
not look at what Apple does and try to mimick the last curved angle, desperately
<wolfspraul>
roh: I totally agree
<roh>
wolfspraul: hrhr. no apple clone for sure. we'll see. my guess is that it will have screws in the 4 corners and some kind of stacked design from acryllic or other plastics
<wolfspraul>
absolutely
* roh
finds apple design boring
<wolfspraul>
we'll use it for a future milkymist-based mobile product :-)
<roh>
hrhr
<wolfspraul>
the moment you glance over to some other 'designer', you already lost
<wolfspraul>
either you have taste or you don't
<wolfspraul>
if you do, then by all means - GO FOR IT! :-)
<roh>
in simplicity is beauty for me. that means mechanics as well as design. remove every unneccessary foobar.
<wolfspraul>
sure
<roh>
yes it will have angled and or round sides, for mechanical feeling (no sharp edges).. but thats a requirement, not design for optics
<roh>
lucky that its small enough to fit our mill... will have to do loads of experiments finding out how to properly mill acryllics
<roh>
the mm1 is too big to mill!
* wpwrak
finds many of apple's design ideas inspiring. brutally unadorned is good :)
<roh>
wpwrak: some, yes. but they also have a lot of stupid ones, which are obviously not thought through.
<wolfspraul>
'design' is not just the surface
<wpwrak>
oh yes. you have to be selective in what you recycle :)
<wolfspraul>
good design starts with an idea and then brings that idea out in practical ways and in real life
<roh>
e.g. the sharp corners on the new aluminium series notebooks. people are now even explaining how to 'sand down the front corner'
<roh>
why? because it hurts your wrists elsewise when using a lot
<wolfspraul>
milling acrylics sounds good
<wpwrak>
roh: (mill m1) you mean even one piece ? or the whole set ?
<wolfspraul>
(as an experiment)
<roh>
wpwrak: the top and bottom pieces are too big for the Y direction
<roh>
wpwrak: we can do something like 24cm X and 12.5cm Y travel
<wpwrak>
(sharp Al edges) they should at least make it stainless steel then - like any serious knife :)
<wolfspraul>
we should actually send the entire m1 box and case to some design contests
<wolfspraul>
why not?
<wpwrak>
(Y size) oh, pity. i thought you could do larger things.
<wolfspraul>
if they hate it, let them throw it out of the competition :-)
<roh>
wolfspraul: i know its possible, i just dont know what the things to know are yet. maybe i need cooling, maybe its just a question of sharp tools/millheads and the right speed
<wolfspraul>
otherwise I want to see it standing site by side to an Apple iWhatever and either win or loose :-)
<roh>
wpwrak: nope. but we can do steel. its very solid and strong
<wolfspraul>
we promise not to bribe the judges
<wpwrak>
a steel case for gta04 should be nice. instant FCC approval ;-)
<wpwrak>
of course, apple may sue you for stealing and perfecting their idea ...
<roh>
if somebody sues me, ive already won (free publicity)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: frog design vs. "laser cutter style" ? :)
<wolfspraul>
yes, gives you the kick. I still remember last time I got a letter from 'famous' Intel!
<wolfspraul>
they even said they are 'famous' in the first line
<wolfspraul>
(seriously)
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wolfspraul>
I was so impressed.
<roh>
hihi. what did you do? misplace a datasheet?
<wolfspraul>
Qi Inside
<roh>
hihi
<wpwrak>
hah ! ;-)
<wpwrak>
in the dungeon with him !
<wolfspraul>
oh my god
<wolfspraul>
I may need to cleanse the irclogs now
<wolfspraul>
argh
<wolfspraul>
I signed the gazillion USD punishment treaty they offered me
<wolfspraul>
oh wait, maybe not
<wpwrak>
isn't parody "fair use" ? :)
<roh>
wpwrak: for me it is
<roh>
'telefonstreich!1!telefonstreich!!1!'
<wolfspraul>
I was already planning to sell "Wolfgang Inside" supporter t-shirts with a pic of me behind bars
<wolfspraul>
but before I could really kick into high gear, they stoped responding to my mails :-)
<wpwrak>
roh: btw, did you run into any acrylic pitfalls with the mill yet ? i thought one of your very first experiments was with acrylic and it looked quite alright
wej has joined #qi-hardware
cladamw has joined #qi-hardware
<roh>
wpwrak: not yet... thus i think i can get away with using proper speed and tools
<wpwrak>
"wolfgang inside" very nice :)
<wpwrak>
roh: didn't you make some sort of plaque with the mill as the first experiment ?
<wpwrak>
(many years ago)
<roh>
wpwrak: we tried, but we failed
<wpwrak>
ah, i see
<roh>
not enough tries for the amount of material
<wpwrak>
hehe :)
<roh>
i still got the rests
<roh>
the cad design of one of those that the text mirrored
<wpwrak>
shit happens :)
<roh>
so the 1st price would have looked quite weird... either the text mirrored, or the '1'
<roh>
ack. we learned from it
<wpwrak>
the risk of creating toolpaths directly, without using CAD :)
<wpwrak>
in this weekend's wood experiments, i also generated toolpaths directly. also got a nice collection of bugs :)
<roh>
wpwrak: well.. it had cad. but the mirroring was gone wrong and we didnt check till it was too late
<wpwrak>
i should actually run this through openscad or such. make a block, then extrude a cylinder along the toolpath and subtract it from the block. in theory, the resulting solid should emerge. i may blow openscad's brain in the process, though.
<wpwrak>
ah, the christmas effect :)
<roh>
we were so kept by making shure its milling ok that nobody questioned where it was milling, just how fast and what the finish looks like
<roh>
all our more complex (not handwritten) gcodes for the mill were from heekscam so far
<wpwrak>
if the prospective recipient was a true geek, he would have approved of your priorities :)
<roh>
models were made somewhere lese
<roh>
oh.. that was fine. it was for a challenge nobody really archieved ;)
<wpwrak>
now that heekscad is dying, what we you using / considering to use ?
<roh>
so there was no 1st, 2nd and 3rd place. just 'tried hard' 'yeah. nice, but worse that the last' and 'not the last'
<roh>
not sure. we'll see
<roh>
i guess since i will base it on 2d cad again i will see what there is and how well it works again
<roh>
there were some tools to make toolpathes from 2d stuff
<roh>
and after all... i edit gcode a lot in the end
<roh>
adding 'jumps' over clamps etc
<roh>
changing parameter like speed or so
<roh>
part of the machinist's job
<roh>
thats why people are 'cnc machining engineers' nowadys, not just workers
<wpwrak>
wow. jumps over clamps ;-)
* pabs3
likes the FR case, nice and solid, no need for a rubber cover
<roh>
the printed cases have no coating like the ones we had for gta02
<pabs3>
does that matter?
<roh>
feels quite different
<wolfspraul>
pabs3: following industry processes blindly is a recipe for failure
<wolfspraul>
we need to build up our own processes thinking only about what works FOR US
<wolfspraul>
from the materials, software tools, machines to assembly process and through several product generations
<wpwrak>
roh: btw, have you done two-sided milling yet ? i.e., do one side, flip the part, then do the other side. if yes, how bad was the experience ? ;-)
<wpwrak>
(i'm currently limiting myself to one-sided only. but it's hard)
<pabs3>
wolfspraul: agreed. I was mainly commenting on the case design. I guess the materials used matter though
<roh>
wpwrak: not yet
<roh>
wpwrak: mostly a question of precise clamping mechanics
<wpwrak>
two-sided would be easier when making molds. but that opens a few cans of gourmet worms of its own ...
<wolfspraul>
pabs3: the case design is a result of the needs and plans of the companies making/selling it
<wolfspraul>
don't be so naive that you think they designed it so that YOU like it
<wpwrak>
clamping or acquiring the orientation. in my case, if have the additional problem that i have no clamps. it's all adhesive tape :-(
<wolfspraul>
they designed is so that it is profitable for them, and through several generations/product line, reuse of tools, etc. and then they spend time to explain to you why you SHOULD like it, why it's so COOL. :-)
<wolfspraul>
that's a business
<wolfspraul>
if we are confused about this and just say "oh, we also want to be so cool", that's just stupid and we will go nowhere.
<wpwrak>
we know the history of that FR case design ... ;-)
<wolfspraul>
we need to serve our own needs, make it cheap and good and easy to manufacture and service.
<wolfspraul>
that's great design
xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
<wolfspraul>
then we explain why it's cool
<wolfspraul>
the outer shape is a side-effect, almost casualty, of this process
<wpwrak>
at the moment, we're pretty much tool-driven. or, rather, tool-constrained
* pabs3
not familiar with the history, sorry
<wolfspraul>
don't believe some marketing folks who are trying to tell you that some artist made this and it fell from the sky
<wolfspraul>
consumer electronics companies are strictly economics driven, including, and especially so, Apple
<wolfspraul>
those profits allow them to drive a big machine explaining why the look that is best for them is also "great-looking" for you
<wolfspraul>
that's all :-)
<wpwrak>
if someone digs up a pot of gold, a proper 3D printer may be something worth playing with for prototyping. that may still not give us a "go straight to the fab" process, but it would give up full design control.
<wpwrak>
we can achieve much of the same with CNC mills, but they require a lot more experience and effort.
<wpwrak>
s/give up/give us/
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i think the big difference is going from 2D or 3-axis CNC to 5/6-axis or 3D printing (for models/prototypes)
<wolfspraul>
the prototype is a prototype for what? a prototype to demonstrate a hopeless Apple-catchup? or a prototype to demonstrate an independent but unmanufacturable design position? or a prototype for a sensationally economic manufacturing process?
<wpwrak>
with 2D, you're limited to designs like the M1 case. i.e., anything that pokes outside your plane is difficult. M1 is an example that shows that you can still get a nice overall result. but the approach has many limits.
<wolfspraul>
I think about manufacturing first, if the prototype gets us closer to cheaper manufacturing - great.
<wpwrak>
a prototype for the shape. then you go to the fab and let their people re-capture the design with the tools they use
<wolfspraul>
nah
<wolfspraul>
that black box approach doesn't work
<wolfspraul>
the black box does not exist
<wpwrak>
you even have it to some extent for PCBs
<wolfspraul>
I'm all in favor of experiments and prototypes, just wondering what they are used for then.
<wpwrak>
you send them the gerbers or placement files, but then something "magic" happens with them inside the fab before things go to the actual machines
<wolfspraul>
I think 90% will just demonstrate their desire to catchup with Apple, because few people actually have an independent design position in their minds.
<wolfspraul>
and if they would, maybe they wouldn't need the fancy 3D printer in the first place
<wolfspraul>
just go to any contemporary art fair, and check how many fancy tools those guys need for their works
<wolfspraul>
you will be surprised :-)
<wpwrak>
you need prototypes to find out if the thing "works". i.e., is it mechanically sound ? does it feel right ? if there are moving parts, do they move ? do they interfere ? is anything too loose or too tight ?
<wolfspraul>
totally, agree
<wolfspraul>
but then what? we want to manufacture and sell stuff
<wolfspraul>
not make 1 prototype or super low-volume fine-art edition
<wpwrak>
you need the prototype to validate your design. for fabrication, you then need something that's optimized for the machines and the process that will be used
<wolfspraul>
if we don't understand those "machines and processes", then they don't exist
<wpwrak>
best case would be that you generate an STL file they can adapt
<wolfspraul>
that is the same as with the PCB maker btw, only that we are all quite clear about PCBs so that knowledge is implicit
<wpwrak>
oh, you can understand them. but they still vary
<wolfspraul>
whereas in mechanical we are still building it up
<wolfspraul>
but I know for sure that the "we make a prototype and then we send it to china to copy cheap" approach is 100% guaranteed to fail
<wpwrak>
why ?
<wolfspraul>
because you will project wrong capabilities on your 'cheap chinese copy machine'
<wpwrak>
well, you have to understand the limitations of their process
<wpwrak>
e.g., if you plan to injection-mold, better don't have enclosed empty spaces :)
<wolfspraul>
anybodys' process, materials, software and machine tools, etc. yes.
wej has joined #qi-hardware
<wolfspraul>
I think the path we are on with the m1 case is perfectly right.
<wolfspraul>
just as a bottom line
<wolfspraul>
it's a perfect case
<wolfspraul>
maybe we could experiment with metal a little
<wpwrak>
sure. for example, there's a very long list of things to consider when injection-molding. but all that can already be in your prototype. even if you made it with a 3D printer capable of creating arbitrary shapes. (the better ones can do that)
<wolfspraul>
and I will still try to make those parts out of FR4 (common pcb core material)
<wolfspraul>
but why?
<wolfspraul>
I was asking about the goal
<wolfspraul>
catch up/copy some other corp A?
<wolfspraul>
make a functional improvement?
<wolfspraul>
make it to the MoMA?
<wpwrak>
functional improvement, high volume, etc.
<wolfspraul>
for example the m1 case is not waterproof
<wolfspraul>
if you spill a bottle of beer on it - bad
<wolfspraul>
so we can now try to work on that without making the case less manufacturable or more expensive
<wolfspraul>
or maybe that's too hard / not worth it
<wpwrak>
the M1 case is adequate for that sort of device. but you couldn't use the same approach for something much smaller.
<wolfspraul>
why not?
<wolfspraul>
that begs for an experiment, no? :-)
<wpwrak>
and try to build something as simple as a battery cover with that laser cutter :)
<wolfspraul>
no need
<wolfspraul>
we learn from corp A that removable batteries are a thing of the past anyway :-)
<wolfspraul>
(joking, joking)
<wolfspraul>
I will only follow a decision making process that makes my life easier, and thus helps me serve my customers better.
<wpwrak>
the approach of company A is very tempting. but what if you're super cost-sensitive and want disposable batteries ?
<wolfspraul>
my point is: we must choose a process that HELPS US.
<wolfspraul>
that is the killer design
<roh>
i would just make a screwable back-cover for now.
<wpwrak>
of course. process follows design. design follows function.
<wolfspraul>
not to run around like chicken trying to copy others, or hoping in some magic black boxes to fix the things we don't want or cannot think about
<wpwrak>
roh: not very consumer-friendly
<wolfspraul>
roh: yes
<wolfspraul>
who says that
<roh>
nothing is unreplaceable as long as you can open and close something without destroying
<wolfspraul>
I go out and say this *IS* the most consumer friendly way
<roh>
wpwrak: its not for endusers. its for experienced ones in that case.
<wolfspraul>
no way
<wolfspraul>
you guys don't factor in how public perception is formed
<roh>
especially since the sim and sd are behind the battery
<wolfspraul>
corp A first looks at what is more profitable for them
<wolfspraul>
then they decide to do that
<wolfspraul>
then they decide to use the profits to tell people in very smart ways how great this is for them
<roh>
if those would be external reachable, i could imagine something screw-accessible even for endusers
<wolfspraul>
that's only fair, that's a business
<wpwrak>
roh: yes. i want to reach the masses. people who don't even own a screwdriver. and if they do, they'd be confused why your screws have two slits
<roh>
wpwrak: users arent that stupid anymore.
<roh>
i see a lot of technology reuse and abuse, also from real endusers.
<wolfspraul>
we are on a good path, I am very proud of the m1 case
<wolfspraul>
actually I will really try to get it into some design competition
<wpwrak>
roh: consider the tamagochi. would you build that with screws to change the battery ?
<wolfspraul>
just sent an email out to a friend to recommend me one, let's see :-)
<roh>
wpwrak: i wouldnt work on it because its a bad product (generates waste mostly)
<wolfspraul>
the tamagochi's case was built like that because it suited the manufacturer of the tamagochi at the time
<wolfspraul>
not because some genius/designed had an idea under the shower in the morning and then proceeded like moses to bring this to earth
<wpwrak>
roh: think of it as something generating revenue. to hell with the planet. there's not shortage of planets in this galaxy :)
<roh>
wpwrak: doesnt work for me
<roh>
i need a stronger motivation than money usually
<wolfspraul>
and we don't need to under-estimate the design flexibility of users, small or large part of the population
<wpwrak>
roh: so you want something that meets user expectations. changing the battery should be easy. nothing fumbly. certainly no screwdrivers - helicopter mum would freak out when you were showing her such a dangerous tool that could hurt her little darlings.
<wolfspraul>
if something works really well for yourself, there is a very good chance it works well for others too
<wolfspraul>
that is 100 times stronger than any marketing campaign trying to tell me this or that
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: wrong
<wolfspraul>
I have at least 20 toys in my household, all with batteries.
<wolfspraul>
so nasty
<wolfspraul>
and >75% of them are fastened with screws
<wolfspraul>
some are not, and then for those toys I easily loose the battery cover
<roh>
wpwrak: you are barking up the wrong tree. i am pro replaceable.
<wolfspraul>
daddy has to recharge the batteries anyway, so it doesn't matter to me whether I have to unscrew the battery cover or not
<roh>
wpwrak: easy is a question of pov.
<wpwrak>
how long does a battery last in those that have screws ? in relation to useful product life
<wolfspraul>
but for those toys where we lost the battery door - bad
<roh>
years.
<roh>
i still have a battery in my phone which is 3 or 4 years old now
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: my daugher manages to run through the batteries in a toy she likes within days!
<wolfspraul>
and I still prefer the battery door to have screws, and I must not be alone since so many toys are like that
<roh>
for stuff which isnt charged 'as it it' sure.
<wpwrak>
and that toy where the batteries last only for days is with screws ?
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
absolutely
<wpwrak>
maybe they just expect people to throw it away and buy a new one ;-)
<wolfspraul>
and that is fine, because the price for not having screws is a higher chance to loose the battery door
<wolfspraul>
and THAT IS BAD
<wolfspraul>
go find a battery door in a children's playroom - argh
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wpwrak>
there's more to it. if your device is intended for mobile use, you may not have access to a screwdriver and/or a suitable environment when you need to change batteries
<wolfspraul>
that's true
<wolfspraul>
and I am in disagreement with roh over the screws where he prefers an Allen key, but I think a Philips key is better/more common
<roh>
wpwrak: as i said. if its something which isnt charged as it its... it has no screws. but thats just for low-end crap anyhow.
<roh>
i dont do that
<wpwrak>
losing screws is also a bad thing. and they tend to be lost easier than a battery cover. maybe not in the case of kids toys, because kids may not appreciate the need to preserve the battery cover. so once they're able to remove it they will. while they can't remove the screws.
<wolfspraul>
yes :-)
<wolfspraul>
but that's one example of "stands in real life", and those are the kinds of things we must design our products for
<roh>
e.g. why do remotes not have rechargeable li-po cells and a micro-usb conn?
<wpwrak>
of course, once your daughter has learned where to find daddy's tools and how to remove the screws, you'll spend your days hunting the chinese markets for the right kind of tiny screws :)
<roh>
just recharge once every few month
<roh>
wpwrak: screws are actually quite standartized compared to battery flaps
<wpwrak>
roh: a rechargeable battery would probably double or triple the manufacturing cost
<roh>
wpwrak: ack.
<roh>
but not as in tco for the user
<roh>
adding about 2 sets of non-rechargeables every year
<roh>
those cost the same as the remote a set
<wpwrak>
roh: since when do consumers think in terms of TCO ? especially when it comes to low-cost products ?
<roh>
wpwrak: ignore that. doesnt matter for open products without an included obsolescence limit.
<wpwrak>
that's two different things
<roh>
no.
<wpwrak>
and your customer may not care about openness
<roh>
wpwrak: then he usually isnt my customer anyhow.
<wpwrak>
and they may fully expect things to become obsolete. even if they don't
<wolfspraul>
customers don't care about openess because that is so vaguely defined
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspraul>
but customers do care about a lot of things that we know can be achieved by using open tech and open processes
<wolfspraul>
so I see the 'open' angle as more of a professional one
<wpwrak>
yes, i agree with that
<wolfspraul>
and fittingly we have very specific understanding of 'open'
<wpwrak>
it makes our work easier. so we can make better products.
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wpwrak>
the end user doesn't see the openness. but they see the product.
<roh>
i think one big salespoint of opensource-hw is the fixability and long live design
<wpwrak>
roh: it can be. but that's not a concern for every product. and not for every user.
<roh>
wpwrak: may be. but ask yourself where the current nonfree trends lead
<wpwrak>
roh: e.g., i avoid use cases where i'd invest time into customizing a product that i know i won't be able to replace without repeating the customization
<roh>
only crappier stuff. people are annoyed by that.
<wolfspraul>
design quality as well since 'open' means a wider basis for collaboration
wej has joined #qi-hardware
<wolfspraul>
that can be explained and marketed
<wpwrak>
roh: one consequence is that i don't have a smartphone. well, i have a whole stack of them (from openmoko :) but i don't use them
<wolfspraul>
also knowledge of materials and processes, even worker rights and fair trade - all marketable imho
<wpwrak>
roh: crappy only annoys if it fails to meet expectations
<wolfspraul>
but product quality stands out for me
<roh>
i dont use a smartphone for a simple different reason. a phone which doesnt survive a day of normal use on one battery is unusable for me.
<wolfspraul>
if open hardware takes off, it will be very hard to match the quality of its designs
<wolfspraul>
not if - 'when' it takes off :-)
<wpwrak>
roh: there are things where it's quite okay if they don't last a lifetime. it's sometimes easier to replace something than to make it durable and take appropriate care of it
<roh>
wpwrak: that will change as ressources are going down
<roh>
wpwrak: think about oil getting 10 times as expensive and energy being also much more expensive.
<roh>
same for shipping and materials.
<wpwrak>
roh: that'll take a lot of time ;) and it may actually be more resource-friendly to make something cheap than something durable
<roh>
then the manufacturers can only sell if products last much much longer, or people will simply not buy them anymore
<roh>
wpwrak: no. it doesnt take as long as you think. <20 years.
<wpwrak>
we'll probably see many uses of plastic get replaced with ceramics in due time.
<roh>
we are some years after peak oil and gas are now. prices will only rise.
<roh>
wpwrak: where it makes sense, sure. e.g. kitchen things
<wpwrak>
i think i heard those 20 years some 30 years ago ;-)
<roh>
wpwrak: 20 years ago we were pre peak oil and gas
<roh>
thats not that long ago (around 2000, +-5 depending who you ask or believe)
<wpwrak>
oh, there's an oil crisis every few years :)
<roh>
nope.
<wolfspraul>
increasing energy costs (if they increase at all) will affect tech the least, because tech is so efficient and semiconductor advances can be measured in factors of thousands
<wolfspraul>
so whatever energy price increase can easily be offset with moore's law, even if that looses up slowly
<wpwrak>
there always is. be it perceived lack of reservoirs, be it lack of production capability, be it an inopportune war, whatever
<roh>
wolfspraul: the biggest energy users are transport, heating, light, and production. not all of those can be shrunk down that much
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
that's my point
<wpwrak>
and about half of the oil crises are just to justify increasing prices
<roh>
e.g. compared to what my room lighting eats, all my electronic appliances eat less combined. including the computer. that was different about 10 years ago.
<wolfspraul>
so the tech economics are barely affected by energy costs
<wolfspraul>
yes, and shrinking. amazing, no?
<roh>
wpwrak: its real reduction in production the last few years.
<wpwrak>
roh: which makes a lot of sense for oil-rich countries
<roh>
i dont know if you noticed, but last winter russia delivered 20-30% less gas to europe not because of the usual cases (conflicts with transit countries) but because their production is down and they needed it for heating themselves.
<roh>
wpwrak: no. prices are high. they would like to produce more. there is just nothing they can do atm. pressure of the gas and oilfields is falling. you cannot just 'get out more' in the same time. doesnt work that way
<wpwrak>
we don't get much russian oil or gas around here :) argentina has its own energy crisis, but that's 100% made by poor politics. we have plenty of oil.
<roh>
wolfspraul: i think the hightech industries can manage with what they can get much longer than others. e.g. the heavy industries are hit hard by energy cost (try melting alumunium by solar power)
<wpwrak>
perhaps that's really the problem in russia. maybe they're also not investing that much into exploiting new deposits.
<roh>
wolfspraul: hightech was hit hard last year by the japan desaster. harddisk prices doubled within days and chip releases needed to be pushed back. all that just-in-time shit bit them in the ass when the few production places went down
<roh>
just in time is just another name for 'not in stock'. simple fail when viewed from a 'how stress-resistant is a process' angle.
<wpwrak>
i wouldn't call this "hit hard". it's a glitch. "hit hard" would mean that they have to abandon a technology and find something new.
wej has joined #qi-hardware
<roh>
wpwrak: just stop with that naive 'there needs to be more of the shit we used the last 30 years' thinking. its over. we need to completely revamp our energy systems on planet earth. japan has only 2 of >50 reactors online atm, and will service those 2 soon.
<wpwrak>
and if you had a time machine that can only transport you for five few years or more into the past, would you use it to buy hard disks ? :)
<roh>
they had ~30% nuclear energy before. i dont think that will happen ever again.
<roh>
wpwrak: no. i would use it to put the designs of the more efficient windmills, water turbines and solar technology (electric as liquid based ones) together with a few nowadays chip design into the past.
<wpwrak>
roh: there's a lot of potential for saving energy everywhere. i'm not terribly worried about any countries going non-nuclear. i'd be more worried by them doing it improperly, though.
<wpwrak>
yeah, that sounds like a good use of that time machine :)
<roh>
wpwrak: thats the point. saving gets us nowhere. everything we save in the '1st world' is eaten up by china, india and others while you think. we need to make sure everyone can access better technology than that as early as possible.
<roh>
vendors in china are speaking of 'net-parity' withing 5 years now. thats when power from oil/gas costs the same as out of solar panels
<wpwrak>
yup. not doing obviously stupid things already goes a long way
<roh>
5 years ago we though we can do that in germany only when funding the technology for another 20 years. progress is made and its accellerating fast.
<wpwrak>
and energy prices are still way too low for the most part to cause them to seriously affect choices
<wolfspraul>
there's plenty of energy around us, we just need to be a little smarter at converting it
<wpwrak>
china and not wasting energy. hmm ;-)
<roh>
so i think the best we can do is make 'better' technologys for energy production from that fat fusion ball in the milkyway afail fast
<roh>
argh. available fast
<wolfspraul>
and don't just run around with clichees of china. just visited a neighbor last weekend who proudly told me he is powering his entire house with a geothermal installation in his backyard - 200m into the ground :-)
<wolfspraul>
he tried to do the same at a farm outside of beijing (he is in the agriculture business), but that failed for a variety of reasons - they will try something else now :-)
<wpwrak>
if i didn't know there an entire planet between here and china, i'd think the full moon is caused by it being over china :)
<roh>
wolfspraul: nice. i heard they install about 2/3rds of the chinese solar panels inland, and that the national power provider has to set up poles in villages to power water pumps and gsm basestations. know if that is true?
<wolfspraul>
overall I would agree that energy is wasted left and right in China, don't know whether it's worse than in the US though
<wolfspraul>
roh: very possible, sure. I don't know naturally because "china" is just too big. It's like 3-4 times "Europe" - and do you know what may happen somewhere in "Europe"? probably not...
<wpwrak>
i think china and the us waste energy in different ways
<roh>
maybe japan should just plaster all the 'lost land' around fukushima with solar panels. atleast then it would produce energy.. you cannot make food there anymore
<wpwrak>
for both styles, you'd be crucified in germany ;-)
<roh>
anyhow. i think its nice that more people have understood how important it is to rethink the energy economy now and things are happening. lets hope other countries get that too, fast
<wpwrak>
roh: (food) hey, give darwin some credit. let's breed a new race of radiation-tolerant humans :)
<roh>
or we will have another high quality export article which will piss people off again *g*
<roh>
wpwrak: they tried in in tschernobyl. doesnt happen.
<roh>
maybe in a few thousand generations. nothing we will know
<wpwrak>
roh: in chernobyl, they chickened out. wildlife seems to be pretty fine with the new situation. maybe the animals are happy that it's not quite so cold in winter now :)
<roh>
the animals survive only by having loads of surplus offspring in numbers.
<roh>
so yes, they die fast. but they spread even faster. doesnt work that way for humans
<roh>
wpwrak: atleast thats what the recent studies show. wildlive yes. but happy? nope.
<wpwrak>
that's only true for some animals
<roh>
the only reason there are so many animals there is that man doesnt hunt em anymore.
wej has joined #qi-hardware
<wpwrak>
give them time. you need a few generations for a full adjustment. course the ones that breed faster adjust more quickly. bacterial probably laugh at all the trouble larger mammals are having.
<wpwrak>
you see. one guy's disaster is another guy's opportunity :)
<roh>
wpwrak: there is no higher animal we know of which can cope radiation. they all mutate and have genetic defects fast.
<wpwrak>
but they usually survive anyway
<wpwrak>
don't confuse individual tragedy with long-term survival of the population
<roh>
i think the bigger question is: what happens if germany and some if its neighbours would partner up with japan becoming the worlds leading natural energy consortium? i think that would strike more than shock and awe into some leaders minds.
<roh>
because regardless what happens. some facts are clear. coal, gas and oil will run out (also uranium btw). when exactly and with what curve is matter for discussion.. but do you want to be the last idiot to change?
<wpwrak>
what would that mean ? file more patents and prevent the others from using renewable energies ?
<roh>
wpwrak: nope. patents dont protect shit. build stuff. make shit. first.
<roh>
if you do it earlier, you have more experience, better products. same game as always. innovate and improve.
<xiangfu>
all gtk package failed to build on recently openwrt under toolchain-mipsel_gcc-4.6-linaro_uClibc-0.9.33
<roh>
we dont have any natural ressources to be worth a lot. so we need to sell brainpower anyhow.
<wpwrak>
the knowledge gradient can only be so steep. if country A can do something and country B can't, it's often just a question of B not wanting it badly enough
<roh>
wpwrak: i think history prooves my point. i havent seen a single product copy being better than the original.
<wolfspraul>
hey btw
<wolfspraul>
a little back to hardware, I think I realized something recently
<wpwrak>
what i mean is that .de and .jp may very well take the lead. but others will not have to be far behind.
<wolfspraul>
in China I typically see a few companies specializing on a particular product, usually less than 5, often just 1-2
<wolfspraul>
but what are their survival strategies if they don't have the highest volume on that product?
<wolfspraul>
cut corners on quality!
<wolfspraul>
the customer decides what they end up buying, the manufacturer doesn't care
<wolfspraul>
but they do this systematically, because you never know you may cut something that nobody actually cares about
<wolfspraul>
so say some competitor A is producting a product X, volume Y/month
<wolfspraul>
you start, you want to get into this market
<wolfspraul>
you secure your first order, out of the blue
<roh>
wolfspraul: if its really unimportant to function, i dont care
<wpwrak>
there's the well-known effect of items "made in china" that, although flawlessly manufactured, are unfit for any purpose
<wolfspraul>
you price your product below A - you have to!
<wolfspraul>
but how can you be profitable if you price it below A and you have lower volume?
<wpwrak>
well, except for landfull
<wpwrak>
s/full/fill/
<roh>
i mean.. what does it matter if the plastics is 'nice and shiny' on the chip? as long as the robot placing it can handle it the same
<qi-bot>
wpwrak meant: "well, except for landfill"
<wolfspraul>
only one way: cut quality/testing
<wolfspraul>
so they do that
<wolfspraul>
and then the market decides
<wolfspraul>
either the market stays with the 'leader' who did this product first at some quality and pricepoint, or the volume shifts elsewhere
<wolfspraul>
interesting approach
<roh>
wolfspraul: sure. i think development needs to be folded into the 'innovation, first to market' part anyhow.
<wolfspraul>
this is definitely happening, I just finally see the pattern and see it in reality
<wolfspraul>
testing is expensive, so by removing some testing/oqc you can offset your disadvantage of late-start, i.e. lower volume and lower pricepoint
<wolfspraul>
then the market decides and finds equilibrium somewhere
<roh>
when you are on the market long enough with a product to have good fakes around, you need to innovate again. i dont see a reason to help companies stay afloat when they dont fight for being better than the rest
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, nobody would even argue about that :-)
<wolfspraul>
but I'm talking about how the first copycat starts
<wolfspraul>
because they come from behind - lower volume
<wpwrak>
those dysfunctional low-cost products can be a problem. e.g., it's hard to find good compressors for your car (for inflating tires) in argentina
<wolfspraul>
hey
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
it's the sales secret here
<wolfspraul>
maybe the buyers are even more stupid than the makers, in the end
<wpwrak>
you get a lot of the cheap chinese ones but they fail very rapidly. sometimes barely survive inflating a single tire
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
I just explained the system :-)
<roh>
also sometimes good comes from it. samsung was said to be a copycat once also. but the did more than that. they innovated and made their own, high quality products. thats what keeps em alive.
<wolfspraul>
sure
* pabs3
is reminded of Doctorow's recent book
<wpwrak>
and a product of decent quality, not talking about anything fancy, easily is 20x the price. and it's almost impossible to find in the first place.
<wpwrak>
very often it's something a shop bought some 15 years ago and never sold because it's so expensive
<roh>
wpwrak: argentinia is weird.. but also one must see that they failed as a state and are still recouping from that
<wolfspraul>
and guess what. it's the same in China. that's why foreign luxury goods are selling like hot cakes, people are tired of searching through the crap.
<roh>
i mean.. when the state went bankrupt, years ago
<wolfspraul>
maybe Chinese know best actually, and that's why those foreign brands sell so well
<wolfspraul>
it goes down to the simplest things, like pens and colors for kids
<wolfspraul>
but anyway, the oqc issue is a serious one, I need to think about it for my own products.
<wolfspraul>
we have to have the time and mind to judge the quality of the products we make ourselves
<wolfspraul>
rather than blindl dumping whatever into the market and letting the market find out
<wolfspraul>
that's not right imho
<wpwrak>
roh: that's cyclic in argentina. we're heading for the next crisis now. government already restricted access to foreign currency, imposed massive restrictions on imports, and essentially removed all limitations from serving itself from the reserves of the central bank
<wpwrak>
roh: also combined with a massive cut in subsidies (e.g., some utility prices are going up by some 500% this year)
<wpwrak>
roh: they gambled on an excellent harvest this year to offset some of the fallout of these measures but there was a drought that will reduce the agricultural output by some 20%. the import restrictions will further contract the industry, including production for export (what little there is of that)
<wpwrak>
roh: so it shouldn't take very long until the next collapse. then there will be protests, a change in government, some hectical cleanup, and things will be on track again soon thereafter
<wpwrak>
roh: also the 2001/2002 crisis with the default wasn't that big a problem. people lost some of their savings, but since they're used to distrusting banks, that usually wasn't devastating
<wpwrak>
roh: there are longer-term effects that may eventually lead to serious problems. i think it depends on how long it takes people to figure out that populism governments aren't necessarily a good choice
<roh>
subsidies are bad by concept... why were they in place?
<wpwrak>
s/lism/list/
<qi-bot>
wpwrak meant: "roh: there are longer-term effects that may eventually lead to serious problems. i think it depends on how long it takes people to figure out that populist governments aren't necessarily a good choice"
<wpwrak>
roh: to keep up the pretense that there's no inflation. people don't like inflation.
<roh>
are people that stupid?
<wpwrak>
roh: the official inflation numbers are something like 5-10%. the real inflation is > 20%
<roh>
both shitty and feelable
<wpwrak>
apparently. the president was re-elected with 54% last year. it worked.
<wpwrak>
and right after re-election, they dropped the subsidies :)
<roh>
m-/
<wpwrak>
a few weeks ago, there was a railroad accident - a train failed to brake at the head station. 51 people on the train killed. some 700 wounded.
<roh>
what kind of hq-exports does it have?
<roh>
besides beef
<roh>
ouch
<wpwrak>
the railroad is run by a private company both with heavy subsidies. all that went operation, nothing into maintenance. the trains are some 60 years old. the rails, too. the track is designed for 100+ km/h. due to the poor state of the track, they limit the speed of the trains to 40 km/h. and there's a derailment every now and then.
<wpwrak>
(export) soy beans and some other agricultural products
<wpwrak>
also cars. but that may change. some plants are stopping every few weeks because they're running out of parts (due to the import restrictions)
<wpwrak>
those plants belong to companies like fiat or volkswagen. i would assume that most of the investment there is with capital from outside the country. if i had a plant that's being troubled by such issues, plus skyrocketing energy cost, plus heavy inflation, would i invest ? or would i rather let is run while it's still somewhat profitable, then shut it down ?
<wpwrak>
nota bene, there's booming brazil next door. they know how to make cars, too.
<roh>
heh
<roh>
what do they do different?
<wpwrak>
the train accident may make more people realize how things work. and perhaps cast their next vote accordingly.
<roh>
and why isnt there something like the eu (free trade etc) for south america?
<wpwrak>
brazil: invest into industry. keep things stable enough for foreign investors to be interested. i think brazil is now the world's #8 industry nation, before the UK
<wpwrak>
but of course there is :)
<wpwrak>
so you send your free trade goods, say, from brazil. let's say it's fridges. the government loves appliances.
<wpwrak>
so first of all, they'll slap some taxes on them, somewhere along the way. but of course, that may not be enough. so they delay customs processing.
<wpwrak>
delayed customs processing means: 1) your good are sitting there, not earning money. 2) you pay for storage. a win-win situation :)
<wpwrak>
delayed here means months
<roh>
why should anybody invest in such a fail?
<wpwrak>
that's already quite good. but they can do better. they introduced a new approval process. for every import, you first have to get permission to conduct the transaction. about 30% get approved nearly instantly (1-3 days). another third within weeks. the rest, usually the big orders, meet difficulties.
<roh>
still not attractive.
<wpwrak>
and they cooked up an interesting concept: for each dollar spent on imports, there must be a matching dollar earned from exports.
<wpwrak>
so you get companies like BWM becoming wine exporters
<roh>
i find policies which are only country-centred mostly failing.
<roh>
its in-world-economics nowadays. not in-country-economics
<wpwrak>
obviously
<wpwrak>
ah, then there's a punitive tax on electronics imports. to favour domestically produced electronics.
<roh>
do those really exist?
<roh>
i mean.. even the german speaking area is too small to make sense for some producers to be targeted specifically sometimes.
<roh>
how should that work with products made in argentinia for 'only' argentinia?
<wpwrak>
it works like this: container with digital cameras arrives from china in buenos aires. cameras get loaded onto trucks and are driven to ushuaia. that takes a week or so. there, at the factory, they take them out of the box, perform a delicate technical operation on them, then put them back into the box. then another factory worker puts a sticker on the box. that sticker is 100% made in argentina. like the rest of the product is now. t
<wpwrak>
hen they put the cameras back on the truck. the truck drives it to where the customers are, i.e., most likely in or very near buenos aires. so it's another week on the road.
<wpwrak>
needless to say, the (very influential) truck drivers's union is happy
<roh>
ah. i see. you also got the corruption thingie there
<wpwrak>
ah, and the delicate technical operation is a test of the auto-focus. i.e., press the shutter.
<roh>
let me guess.. local police is paid too for that relabeling to work?
<wpwrak>
they should make enough on drugs and robberies
<wpwrak>
it's pretty common to find members from the police in professional gangs
<roh>
professionals... eh.
<wpwrak>
at least there may be hope for the drug trade. there seems to be growing unrest about that in south america. politicians are getting tired of dancing to DEA's tune and waging little civil wars.
<roh>
ack. legalize it like in portugal and let it be the dea's problem to tell the us weapon manufs that their customers will not be buying new shit
<roh>
quite sick, their 'weapons for drugs' concept
<wpwrak>
so there's more talk about permitting possession of drugs now. a first step. but that will have to wait until after the world cup in brazil. they're now trying to project a "clean" image. did some impressive raids on the slums where the drug dealers rule.
<wpwrak>
of course, the dealers returned to the usual business quickly enough, some happy about a slight reduction in competition.
<wpwrak>
well, consider mexico. now there's a nice place. they haven't quite reached hitleresque numbers of victims in their variant of the "war on drugs", but they're well on track
<roh>
i heard a number yesterday.. they have as many dead on that border every 2 years as the inner-german border had in its whole existance
<wpwrak>
it's more the killings inside mexico. some 15'000 in 2010
<wpwrak>
or maybe more. such numbers tend to be quite unreliable.
<roh>
i guess so. too many anyhow
<wpwrak>
it'll be fun when mexico decides to legalize drugs. will this be a casus bellis for the us ? if yes, what about the ~30% mexicans they have in california alone ?
<roh>
i think california isnt the issue. take a look to the east..
<roh>
texas, new mexico.. etc
<roh>
the gun-nuts states
panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
<wpwrak>
i think they're at about the same percentage
<wpwrak>
(i.e., about 1/3 of the population of mexican origin)
pabs3 has joined #qi-hardware
<wpwrak>
roh: have you milled MDF ?
<roh>
not personally, but should be easy
<roh>
make sure you dont mill to fast
<roh>
ive seen results from friends... and it gets brown if you are cutting too hot
<wpwrak>
my mill is weak and slow ;-)
<wpwrak>
how does it compare to wood ? pine or such ?
<roh>
not sure
<roh>
i think its easier since its smaller fibres
<wpwrak>
yeah, that should help. with pine and small feature sizes, need to do a lot of cleaning.
<wpwrak>
i wonder about the mechanical strength of MDF. probably weaker overall, but maybe the short fibers help to avoid local weakness with small structures
<roh>
if you want strong.. i think you should try delrin plastics
<wpwrak>
i want strong, transparent (at least optionally), easy to source, cheap, easy to machine :)
<wpwrak>
hmm. acrylic is about 20x the price of MDF. well, a few months ago. may be 25x now.
<roh>
oil grows slow *veg*
<wpwrak>
be careful what you wish for ...
<wpwrak>
there are plenty of fast-growing plants that can serve as a source for oil. and there are many countries with a lot of fertile ground and an entirely irrelevant starving population
djbclark has joined #qi-hardware
djbclark has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
<roh>
hm. can one be so used to caffeine that it makes one tired?
<wpwrak>
i sometimes wonder about that, too
<wpwrak>
this is what the little critter i'm experimenting with looks like. still has a number of bugs, though
<wpwrak>
overall design thickness is 8.0 mm. due to small setup errors, it's about 7.5 mm
<wpwrak>
the top has a few grooves and ridges that should keep the pieces aligned (for gluing). but that didn't work very well, in part because some the structures came off.
<wpwrak>
ah, and there are a lot of corners that should be rounded. also to make parts fit (the old inside vs. outside corner problem, aggravated here by using an 1/8" endmill)
<roh>
nice. what will it be?
<roh>
holding a coin cell... a key-ring led lamp?
<wpwrak>
sort of. it'll produce images with a line of LEDs.
<roh>
:)
<wpwrak>
that hole is for USB. alas, that seems to be the only sane way to get data on the device. (about 1-2 kB of image data)
* roh
just read haralds post about Mo-bis
xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
cladamw has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware
<DocScrutinizer>
moo
jekhor has joined #qi-hardware
<wolfspraul>
good morning :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
what's Mo-bis?
<DocScrutinizer>
roh: cafeine acts paradox when you're too tired
<whitequark>
wpwrak: hm, could you read DWG's?
LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware
jluis|work has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
Ayla has joined #qi-hardware
DocScrutinizer has joined #qi-hardware
jekhor has joined #qi-hardware
xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
antoniodariuh_ has joined #qi-hardware
cladamw has joined #qi-hardware
panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware
jluis|work has joined #qi-hardware
rejon has joined #qi-hardware
jluis|work has joined #qi-hardware
GNUtoo has joined #qi-hardware
Ayla_ has joined #qi-hardware
Ayla has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
Ayla has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
Ayla has joined #qi-hardware
emeb has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware
jekhor has joined #qi-hardware
panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware
Ayla has joined #qi-hardware
kilae has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware
antgreen has joined #qi-hardware
Ayla has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
FrankBlues has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
antgreen has joined #qi-hardware
djbclark has joined #qi-hardware
djbclark has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
wej has joined #qi-hardware
qwebirc93492 has joined #qi-hardware
urandom__ has joined #qi-hardware
<rjeffries>
Pimping Milkymist a bit on Google Plus. Will only be seen by 20 million or so people, so pls. don't get your hopes up. ;)
<whitequark>
your post doesn't have any wow-effect and thus won't be reposted blindly
<whitequark>
a more effective way would be to add some images (mandatory) and end with a sentence "It is blazing fast!"
<whitequark>
(which it, quite unusually for a blog post, actually is)
wej has joined #qi-hardware
<whitequark>
roh: wolfspraul: also, re case design
<whitequark>
isn't much of the chinese fabs currently Apple-clone-centered and so able to produce these kinds of cases cheaply?
<whitequark>
they (cases of apples, androids and similar devices) look a bit different from outside but are basically from inside, aren't they?
LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware
<rjeffries>
whitequark actually, on G+, all of my 5K followers and all the people weho follow them, plus the public will all see this post in their G+ stream. That does not mean they will open it.
<rjeffries>
But thanks for the min-lecture. Maybe what you need to understand is I was simply sharing an item I found interesting.
<rjeffries>
I did add links to sharism and the article in wikipedia.
<rjeffries>
Just so you know, what you mention was not my goal. If people are interested, cool. If not, that's cool too. <whitequark> your post doesn't have any wow-effect and thus won't be reposted blindly