Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
<wolfspraul>
roh: hi morning :-)
<wolfspraul>
sorry I missed you yesterday but actually wanted to ask: have you ever experimented with any form of epoxy polymer to seal/enclose electronics?
<wolfspraul>
I'm thinking about my atben/atusb and how I can make them more rugged
<wolfspraul>
just want to dip them in some epoxy blob, or even superglue if that would work :-)
<roh>
wolfspraul: hey
<roh>
nope... epoxy is quite nasty, heavy and one cannot repair stuff when glued anymore
<roh>
well.. i used it to glue stuff, but not as case
<wolfspraul>
how heavy?
<wolfspraul>
which specific epoxies did you try with?
<wolfspraul>
about 'no repair', sure, I understand
<wolfspraul>
if the case is really good, maybe no repair needed :-)
<wolfspraul>
just kidding, but the one-way aspect of epoxy of course is clear
<wolfspraul>
same as first-level IC packaging or ultrasonic welding
<wolfspraul>
for my atben & atusb, I'm sure i just want to seal them and done, don't know what I would ever want to touch on the atben/atusb board
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<wolfspraul>
cladamw: good morning :-)
<wolfspraul>
I saw that xiangfu was also starting to edit the board design now, great
<wolfspraul>
that gives me hope we can finish faster...
<roh>
i havent used moldable stuff like 2-component PU or similars
<roh>
its on my list of stuff to try
<wolfspraul>
yeah, that's what I was getting at
<roh>
i was thinking.. fuck cases... lets use whats there
<wolfspraul>
I remember years ago Tully gave me a dvd from some US epoxy/resin manufacturer, that was very impressive to watch
<wolfspraul>
unfortunately I forgot the company name
<roh>
just use something.. exact form doesnt matter, as long as we can buy it and know how it works. its only mechanics. we can design our own when we do 5-digit numbers
<roh>
may look a bit 80s, but whats with teko and boppla cases or so?
<wolfspraul>
I agree conceptually, but when you start you still run into things that are really important to you
<wolfspraul>
oh absolutely
<roh>
or are you really thinking nanonote-style?
<wolfspraul>
I am 100% with you
<wolfspraul>
absolutely not
<wolfspraul>
I think just what is practical and what works, in *our* priority scale
<wolfspraul>
for example the current atben/atusb boards are a pain, so fragile!
<roh>
i mean... i see droid devices flying by for sub 100E now
<wolfspraul>
but I have a big tube of cyanoacrylate right here :-)
<roh>
another thing i think we should tackle
<roh>
the 'eco'-market
<wolfspraul>
sure, of course [eco]
<wolfspraul>
one sec, the prices don't surprise me at all
<roh>
opensource devices are the only real ecological things.. because you know what they contain (more than usual) and have a better repairability.. etc.
<wolfspraul>
an android wifi phone costs about 20-30 USD now
<wolfspraul>
and it will continue to go down
<roh>
that may help getting contrast to the cheap stuff in the droid area
<wolfspraul>
well
<wolfspraul>
the advancement is in the chips, the last 60 years, no?
<wolfspraul>
you can essentially think of every IC to be a 1 USD item
<roh>
wolfspraul: sure. but why for example do you have a new keyboard?
<wolfspraul>
(gracefully skipping over billions of investments)
<wolfspraul>
that's a big mechanical piece customized to fit my hands
<roh>
a ibm buckling spring from the 80s still would be 'recent developed' enough. nothing happened since then (besides usb, but there is adapters)
<roh>
the 'cheap materials' area is about to end. i know we will dig up garbage to mine for gold
<wolfspraul>
there are different price trajectories
<roh>
one ton of mobile-phones has more gold than the ore from a goldmine.
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<wolfspraul>
chips will continue to become more powerful while still costing "a dollar" in raw materials
<roh>
so lets make sure we know what we used, where and make modules where it makes sense (also to gain upgrade-pathes on hardware)
<wolfspraul>
I can see them getting a few thousand times more powerful still
<roh>
e.g. i could imagine a computer with a mm-like soc, consisting out of multiple chips on multiple boards plugged into one frame as case
<roh>
may be some need 3 or 4 fpga in the end, maybe some can use one or 2?
<wolfspraul>
the cost of raw materials will generally increase I agree, but not explosively I think
<wolfspraul>
just a few percent each year, inflation
<roh>
wolfspraul: more than explosivly... just see the prices of rare earth skyrocketing.
<wolfspraul>
nah, I think most of that is propaganda and lobbying
<roh>
wolfspraul: well.. china has export limits on that now (new)
<wolfspraul>
there are lots of discontinued mines all over the world, where people just got too lazy to compete with the chinese
<wolfspraul>
yeah finally
<wolfspraul>
the chinese are destroying their environment and poisoning people in nearby villages
<wolfspraul>
really
<wolfspraul>
and the government cannot keep the activities of greedy local miners under control
<roh>
and when the wto mumbled, the chinese argued with protection of the environment.
<wolfspraul>
if I would be in the chinese govt, we would cut down harder against this :-)
<roh>
some people who did the arguing there must been laughing a day long
<wolfspraul>
but there are plenty of mines in australia and many other places that could be reopened
<wolfspraul>
where workers would be paid australian rates, and australian environmental standards would apply
<wolfspraul>
which is a good thing!
<wolfspraul>
the chinese govt is right on this!
<roh>
maybe. still limited ressources. means in the end we need to stop using, and start making whole cycles out of it.
<wolfspraul>
china is a big big country, and there are very greedy local miners that don't care that the entire village nearby their mine is poisoned
<wolfspraul>
all kids loosing their teeth etc.
<wolfspraul>
while their own kids (of the factory owners) go to expensive private schools in shanghai
<roh>
wolfspraul: also china has extremely bad performance when it comes to economy of such things.
<wolfspraul>
and the australian mines could easily produce the rare earths as well, they just cannot compete with such gross violations of labor and environmental standards
<roh>
there are clean processes which do not dirty everything and get more ressources out in the end.
<wolfspraul>
someone has to stop this, and it's good that this (seems) to be happening now
<wolfspraul>
it's not "china", it's individual people that are responsible
<wolfspraul>
what I try to tell you is that the problem are greedy local miners, who put their own profits above everything else
<roh>
i know. actually i think the chinese planers are much more considerate about the future than our western economies
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<wolfspraul>
but for electronics, the fact is that the amount of rare/expensive raw materials is very small
<wolfspraul>
what do all raw materials in the typical smartphone add up to?
<wolfspraul>
if you just look at weight and cost of raw materials per kg/ton ?
<wolfspraul>
must be a few USD at most
<wolfspraul>
even less than a dollar maybe :-)
<wolfspraul>
ok let's say 5 USD - MAX
<roh>
its availability, not only the per piece price which counts afaik
<wolfspraul>
compared to the service revenues being driven out of this device, it's negligible
<roh>
same as for weird chips. can kill your whole product if not avail in time
<wolfspraul>
there is no shortage in rare metals, just a totally lopsided mining environment
<wolfspraul>
the chinese got 9x% market share because they were willing to ignore labor and environmental standards
<wolfspraul>
'the chinese' being individual mine owners
<wolfspraul>
I hope this stops soon. I certainly don't want any such mine anywhere near where I live.
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<wolfspraul>
what were you thinking with 'take any case'?
<wolfspraul>
I agree conceptually, but when you start you run into major inconveniences that will still make you want to customize this or that aspect of the case. that's what I found.
<roh>
well.. depends on what the target usecase is.
<roh>
for the nanonote its hard
<wolfspraul>
so I think it's more like "make case v1 asap" with least cost and resources
<wolfspraul>
then use it, run into the major daily issues
<wolfspraul>
then proceed to case v2
<roh>
but what hinders us to use some readymade thing like the ben case?
<roh>
cases are nearly always designed with a specific production method in mind for every part
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
and hopefully someone has the (daily) usage routine in mind as well
<roh>
so using one concept on low volume, and the switch is basically impossible
<roh>
one would rather learn from one case and the manufacturing method, and try others over time, depending on scale, needed detail, strength, volume and on how many
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
that's what we do, no?
<roh>
i think the most realistic best mechanics for the buck we can get is what ben has
<roh>
anything we do would be more expensive and bulkier by far
<roh>
so maybe the nn isnt the best device to experiment with new case making stuff and learn?
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<wolfspraul>
hmm, hard to say
<wolfspraul>
we learn, that's the good part
<wolfspraul>
can't really pin down how we remix what we learnt into something really good yet
<wolfspraul>
for sure the plastic injection path with expensive steel tools has lots of pros and cons, which we know now, so we can use that when needed...
<roh>
sure. but i have good experiences with only changing few things from revision to next, to make it work at all
<wpwrak>
phew. back.
<roh>
so.. new soc AND new case.. may be too hard?
<wolfspraul>
it comes down to experience and picking the right tool for the job, and designing the case (and even use case) with those things in mind from day 1
<roh>
i think we have no chance even replicating what the nn has now in mechanical keyboard quality with a non-injection molding manuf. process
<wpwrak>
(metric/one file) without switch, metric is better, because there's a clean conversion imperial -> metric but not metric -> imperial
<roh>
maybe we can, but not for sane money.
<wpwrak>
(one file) probably doesn't matter much as far as pos2fab is concerned
<wpwrak>
(atben/atusb) how about acid-free silicone ?
<wpwrak>
(keyboard) do it the apple way. mill it keycaps from some fancy material, then sell it at a high price ;-)
<wpwrak>
s/it k/the k
<qi-bot>
wpwrak meant: "(keyboard) do it the apple way. mill the keycaps from some fancy material, then sell it at a high price ;-)"
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<roh>
wpwrak: we can't compete in any sane way doing something like that
<wolfspraul>
I think more incremental
<roh>
nobody buys keyboards for >100 euros
<xiangfu>
dvdk, thanks on mplayer. works just fine. :) I will release image today. test then release.
<wolfspraul>
yes agreed, those are products that are part of a huge marketing and design world and experience
<wolfspraul>
it's like saying the candy sold in disneyland has such huge profit margins
<wolfspraul>
sure it does
<wolfspraul>
but you try to go into disneyland with your own bag of candies and sell them there
<wolfspraul>
ha ha
<wolfspraul>
security people will be at your place within, what. 30 seconds? :-)
<wolfspraul>
I think our path is excellent in making incremental experiments and adding more tools, processes and materials to our arsenal
<wolfspraul>
it just has to be documented well, reproducible, so later we can build upon that, refine parts, next iteration
<wpwrak>
roh: the one i'm typing on at the moment also cost something like USD 250. of course, it'll probably outlive me :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: yeah, we'll eventually have to crack the injection molding nut
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: for now, i'd be happy with STLs and functioning mechanical prototypes. then someone who knows the process details can re-capture the critter for the plastic fab.
<wolfspraul>
it's not a big black box
<wpwrak>
and you could probably print STLs of you care to
<wolfspraul>
so that just won't happen
<wpwrak>
s/of /if /
<qi-bot>
wpwrak meant: "and you could probably print STLs if you care to"
<wpwrak>
what won't happen ?
<wolfspraul>
but maybe someone starts experimenting with plastic and manual moulding
<wolfspraul>
if you really want to do plastics
<wpwrak>
for manual molding, i see some potential in heating the whole system, with the mold. they probably don't do that in industry, because then they'd have to wait for it to cool. but if we don't care about time, we could test fairly accurate molds this way
<wolfspraul>
everything is heated afaik
<wolfspraul>
the 'industry' (which is also just individual companies and people) optimizes as to their own needs
<wolfspraul>
there is no big 'strategizing' going on, really
<wolfspraul>
you know the optimization potential right when you have it in front of you
<wolfspraul>
roh sits at his workbench, and spends hours and hours doing some step X
<wolfspraul>
(which is already profitable, assuming that he works for a paying customer)
<wpwrak>
well, a similar set of goals and capabilities often leads to similar solutions
<wolfspraul>
while doing this manual repetitive thing, he calculates and says "if I invest 5 hours into making this tool, I can then make back those 5 hours and save another 3 hours on top compared to continuing with the current process"
<wolfspraul>
those 3 saved hours increase his hourly rate
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<wolfspraul>
so he may take the risk (the tool making may still fail)
<wolfspraul>
there is a nearly infinite variety of optimizations in mechanical
<dvdk>
xiangfu: cool.
<wolfspraul>
I just want to learn more, and I think as I've said initially I want to try with some epoxies :-)
<wolfspraul>
dvdk: is the ssl problem gone now? (just double-checking)
<wolfspraul>
thanks a lot for the heads up! that deadline somehow bypassed my attention
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: seems to work here (sslpatrol tells me about new certificate, but no info, no warning nor error)
<wolfspraul>
roh: one detail. a while ago we talked about the heads of the screws on the m1 case
<wolfspraul>
and I kept saying I prefered phillips over the hex keys you seemed to like better
<wolfspraul>
well, after some time I have to say unless you changed again, I am now in the hex camp as well :-)
<wolfspraul>
I rather explain people that they have to get this relatively rare driver, because the phillips heads just wear out too fast
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: maybe you shouldn't use HTTPS based CSS references on the non-HTTPS entry page to the shop? This way it'd fail less fatally on the next cert timeout.
<wolfspraul>
nah, if anything I will move everything behind ssl
<wolfspraul>
on all sites
<wolfspraul>
makes the life of the various traffic shapers and deep packet inspectors and friends a bit harder
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: that's a great idea I think. With all the recent deep packet inspection, java-script injecting proxies etc. that can subtly break pages
<wolfspraul>
a new term I heard there was "revenue extractor"
<wolfspraul>
which are people that are inserting extra ads into html streams! :-)
<wolfspraul>
I know ssl is no ultimate solution, at all. but it ups the ante a bit.
<wpwrak>
the "revenue extractor" is pretty evil. well, if it sounds like a pickpocket who went to school, what can you expect ? :)
<wolfspraul>
yeah, nice term, eh?
<wolfspraul>
but I can see how that sells
<wolfspraul>
"do you want to install our revenue extractor at your hotel/coffee shop/whatever?"
<wolfspraul>
who would say no??? :-)
<wolfspraul>
we have to be very clear that 99% or more people really have no understanding at all how this internet and protocol and computer stuff works, it just does work. so when someone comes with a message like that, it really *is* hard to say no.
<wolfspraul>
you don't want to be the last idiot refusing some good new thing... and you cannot tell whether there is any problem with this or not.
<wolfspraul>
that's why I rather see the responsibility on my side for example in moving everything behind ssl.
<wpwrak>
and who would be able to tell it's the hotel's fault anyway
<wolfspraul>
I think the hotel staff (in this example) making the decision has no way to tell whether this is good or not.
<wolfspraul>
no chance, zero
<wolfspraul>
the salesmen could use something like "this is like twitter, it will take off. get on it early before everybody else does. don't be stupid"
<wolfspraul>
"the other hotels are all installing it now"
<wolfspraul>
anyway
<wolfspraul>
ssl :-)
<wolfspraul>
a small step
<wpwrak>
well. let's hope the message makes the round
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: so you think an acid-free silicone may be able to enclose atben/atusb without affecting rf performance?
<wolfspraul>
acid-free so that the board remains undamaged
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<wpwrak>
(acid-free) yes. seems that the regular silicone is a bit acidic. though they still don't mind recommending it for metals. but not for electronics.
<wpwrak>
(rf performance) good question :-)
<wpwrak>
it will almost certainly affect rf performance. but at least there's hope it won't be overly bad because it's thin. but then, i don't really know
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<wolfspraul>
ok, got it
<wolfspraul>
more experiments
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<wpwrak>
yeah. pretty heavy RF experimenting
<wolfspraul>
well, it could start easy as well, just by doing high-level performance tests and seeing whether something gets worse
<wolfspraul>
that doesn't tell us whether the lower layers are struggling with more noise though (for example), at least not precisely
<wolfspraul>
but have to start somewhere
<wpwrak>
sure. if it's a total failure, that would be easy to detect
<wpwrak>
you can actually measure the signal strength with atben/atusb alone
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: genex/sym2xps: also check that the unit parameter is present (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/3bbd0e7
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: genex/sym2xps: use @ as regexp delimiter, to accommodate symbols names with / (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/dcee390
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<dvdk>
wolfspraul: I see you already made sharism.cc https-only?
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: there are two side effects: the (totally outdated) blog is gone. BUT: the Developers link to qi-hw.com is also gone!
<wolfspraul>
forgot, when I work on a server I tend to move things behind ssl whenever I can
<wolfspraul>
I want to move the shop back to qi-hw anyway :-)
<wolfspraul>
btw today I am having terrible trouble with the gfw (great firewall of china), so I may drop out a lot
<wolfspraul>
something is acting up, they are probably testing more aggressive intrusion schemes
<dvdk>
I mean, people might not buy if they can't find a reference to firmware upgrades and manual?
<wolfspraul>
dns interception, attacks against all sorts of protocols, ssl, ssh, non-standard ports, artificial delays, you name it, they try it :-)
<wolfspraul>
dvdk: yes I agree this all needs to be united better
<wolfspraul>
he he. you are right! spring cleanup needed... :-)
<dvdk>
and suddenly SSL is gone but the Developer link is back. This link graph has too many (directed :) nodes
<dvdk>
looking forward to the shop being moved to the qi-hw wiki. so we can edit the price at will :)
<wolfspraul>
yep
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<dvdk>
(plus all the bots finally get a chance at increasing nanonote sales)
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<wolfspraul>
dvdk: is the qi wiki down right now?
<wolfspraul>
nope
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<whitequark>
wolfspraul: SSL is the way to go. On my sites I use HSTS, that is, require an user agent to always use SSL, even when the user has typed http://
<kyak>
i revisited linux usb gadget in RNDIS mode and Windows and it still doesn't work
<kyak>
i was hoping it would work in 3.2
<kyak>
i suspect it might be not a software issue
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<kyak>
is Ben's USB port is capable of RNDIS? i;m asking because not all usb gadgets work - for exmaple, mass storage doesn't work as well
<kyak>
maybe it's still the software issue, but it must be fixed not in RNDIS driver (on Linux or Windows side), but in linux/drivers/usb/gadget/jz4740_udc.c ?
<kyak>
from what i read, it seems that dingoo has no problems being a mass storage device in Windows
<kyak>
i guess RNDIS would work as well
<kyak>
Azbuka owners claim that their device also connects fine with Windows
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<qwebirc1900>
Hi
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<whitequark>
kyak: xz0032 has been verified to work with rndis
<whitequark>
and it has the same 4740_udc gadget
<whitequark>
kyak: what's in dmesg (on the host) and lsusb -vv ?
<qwebirc1900>
I'm trying to flash, but when on usbboot y try to run "nprog 2048 openwrt-xburst-qi_lb60-root.ubi 0 0 -n", it gives me an error
<whitequark>
which one?
<qwebirc1900>
the nanonote
<qwebirc1900>
with the latest image (2012-04-09)
<whitequark>
which error does it show?
<qwebirc1900>
not enough argument
<xiangfu>
hmm...
<xiangfu>
I haven't release the 2012-04-09 yet.
<xiangfu>
it will release today. sorry I am slow. I found a small bug. so it will release in next few hours.
<xiangfu>
qwebirc1900, can you paste all output from usbboot? and the command you using.
<qwebirc1900>
only the one from the error?
<qwebirc1900>
usbboot :> nprog 2048 openwrt-xburst-qi_lb60-root.ubi 0 0 -n not enough argument. Usage: nprog (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (1)start page number (2)image file name (3)device index number (4)flash index number (5) image type must be: -n:no oob -o:with oob no ecc -e:with oob and ecc
<xiangfu>
what is the usbboot version?
<qwebirc1900>
201002-1
<xiangfu>
qwebirc1900, ok. there is a bug on that one.
<xiangfu>
I think it because there is space at the end of command. if I don't remember wrong.
<xiangfu>
it have a new command "reset" for reboot nanonote from host.
<xiangfu>
and a lot of bug fixed.
<xiangfu>
the latest version is 201105
<qwebirc1900>
ok, thanks
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<qwebirc1900>
flashing now, thanks again. Is there a way of making a splash screen for gmenu2x?
<xiangfu>
you mean the boot splash ?
<qwebirc1900>
yes, but not the Qi Hardware Logo one, I mean another one, for example, made with python that requires to press Enter
<xiangfu>
qwebirc1900, check the /usr/bin/gmen2x.
<qwebirc1900>
ok, i'll give it a look
<xiangfu>
it's a script wrap the real gmen2x. I think you can add some lines before "exec /usr/bin/gmenu2x.bin"
<kyak>
whitequark: by "host" you mean Ben, of course?
<kyak>
whitequark: hard to copy-paste something from Ben when i'm on Windows. Basically, im using linux.inf frmo kernel.org to install rndis driver. In windows xp, Ben says something "chosen config #2: RNDIS". After 2-5 seconds, Windows shows error code 10 "unable to start device"
<kyak>
on Windows 7, Ben shows the same "chosen config #2: RNDIS", and after 2-5 seconds Windows also shows error code 10, but Ben also displays "config #0: unconfigured"
<kyak>
WIndows 7 is kinda smarter than WIndows XP i guess and informs linux side that something went wrong
<kyak>
the error code 10 with regards to rndis is mentioned here and there in Internet
<kyak>
but no real solution
<kyak>
and i also tried different cables/ports/and even laptops
<JCGsp>
thats great. Sadly, there's no SD boot yet?
<kyak>
whitequark: cdc-ecm does work on Ben
<kyak>
in fact, it's the main and the only operating mode as of now
<kyak>
since RNDIS was explicitely disabled to be able to use cdc driver on Windows (yes, there is such driver, but it's not free of charge and can only work 4 hours in trial mode before it disables)
<whitequark>
hm
<whitequark>
maybe that was CDC-Ethernet and not -ECM
<kyak>
and frankly speaking it works just perfect.. too pity it's not free
<kyak>
it's called Ethernet Gadget (with CDC Ethernet support)
<mth>
whitequark: endpoint count might be a driver rather than a hardware issue
<mth>
is CDC-ECM supported by Windows out of the box?
<mth>
if it is, it would be worth investing some time in to get it running
<whitequark>
mth: from the times when I read jz4740-udc docs and sources, it's a driver issue
<mth>
me and a friend tried for several hours to get CDC Ethernet working with a netbook running Win7 and various .inf files, both against a kernel with and without RNDIS support in the CDC Ethernet driver
<mth>
and we didn't succeed in making it work
<mth>
while with Linux and OS X, it's a matter of plugging in and accepting an IP address via DHCP
<mth>
I think OS X only works when RNDIS support is disabled in the kernel though
<whitequark>
you didn't do a ritual sacrifice
<whitequark>
that's why
<mth>
I'm not a religious man, maybe that's why I don't get along with Windows
<DocScrutinizer>
I didn't feel like updating mtools if there's *anything* mor esane than this pile
<dvdk>
yeah, the "-i" option for the "::" pseudo-drive isn't documented well
<DocScrutinizer>
for reference, from info:
<DocScrutinizer>
>> The syntax described herein is new for version `mtools-3.0'. The old line-oriented syntax is still supported. Each line beginning with a single letter is considered to be a drive description using the old syntax. Old style and new style drive sections may be mixed within the same configuration file, in order to make upgrading easier. Support for the old syntax will be phased out eventually, and in order to discourage its use, I
<DocScrutinizer>
purposefully omit its description here.
<DocScrutinizer>
the last sentence really made my day
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: (dosfsck) yeah, sorry, i got a bit carried away there. the experience of making a file system checker/repairer that - unlike DOS' CHKDSK - wasn't always in "conan" mode was too exciting :)
<DocScrutinizer>
now the best, the icing on top (quote from a script named mmc-rename.sh):
<DocScrutinizer>
# convert device name to an MS-DOS-style drive letter
<DocScrutinizer>
echo "$0: could not determine drive letter"
<DocScrutinizer>
you'd think usage ow awk obsoletes a pipe to sed, anyway. the eval still is arcane to me as well
<DocScrutinizer>
ow->of
<wpwrak>
the pipe through sed is considerably shorter than doing the substitution in awk
<DocScrutinizer>
shorter in what?
<DocScrutinizer>
in chars to type?
<wpwrak>
yes
<DocScrutinizer>
hmm, as long as you know messybox by heart, you even might get away with that then, without getting fired for it
<DocScrutinizer>
in a decent shell however it will load an additional binary
<wpwrak>
at your job, they fire people for loading binaries ? interesting :)
<DocScrutinizer>
I wish they did at Nokia
<wpwrak>
why bother ? the self-destruct will take care of all that anyway :)
<DocScrutinizer>
not for the OS on my daily phone
<DocScrutinizer>
which btw got a spare for the spare recently (the device)
<DocScrutinizer>
so I hope it will last until something decent emerges
<wpwrak>
yeah, everyine is biding their time, it seems ;)
<wpwrak>
s/yi/yo
<qi-bot>
wpwrak meant: "yeah, everyone is biding their time, it seems ;)"
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: genex/: added page header with name, hierarchical path, and path to library (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/208d29b
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: genex/sym2xps: only add question mark to F0, not to all fields (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/1e5dbb4
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: genex/pdf.c: rearranged header to show hierarchy first; balanced spacing (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/1a06314
GNUtoo-desktop has joined #qi-hardware
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<DocScrutinizer>
hmmm bringing USB hostmode to this N9 harmattan abomination. I must be insane
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer: you seem to like usb-host mode much
<DocScrutinizer>
well, I know a bit about it meanwhile
<DocScrutinizer51>
but I hate this harmm shit Nokia invented