<aw>
wpwrak, man, i hope i don't need to check mounted conditions of atben & atusb, but seems that i have to do after read your email. :-)
<kristianpaul>
benefit of the doubt ? ;-)
<aw>
after quick checking, no obvious bad1~3 on mine. :-) btw, the packing for atben & atusb is not good though, they are wrapped together in small box without seperate each piece, this may cause resistor missed. since i can't see deeply and clearly it from that atusb-bad2.jpg
<aw>
the possible reasons are either smt machine is under fine tune and didn't mount that resistor or drop by collision(wrapping together), this can be determined on seeing both resistor' two pads's soldering condition.
<aw>
if the two pads are well-soldering and no symptom on resistor mounted, then smt machine missed; or the other reason. :-)
<aw>
wpwrak, your atusb-bad1.jpg is likely the same story while my jtag first panel mounted, one(single piece) of them(panel) they was trying to pick and place at first time then later smt operator who forgot to place correctly back though. :-) no AOI, no visualization manually. :-) It's seem that often to happen in first panel mounted out. not surprised though. :-)
<wolfspraul>
methril: do you go to FISL?
<wpwrak>
aw: (condition) naw, tuxbrain did the checking for you already ;-)
<aw>
wpwrak, ha..i misunderstood already. ;-)
<wpwrak>
aw: (bad2) the board already had problems before shipping. so i blame pick and place :) but you're making a good point. the wrapping isn't ideal.
<wpwrak>
does anyone know under what license the arduino design files are ?
<wpwrak>
hmm, how open is the OpenPandora hardware design ? i don't see any links to schematics, layout, design files, ...
<kristianpaul>
seems they make clear distinction between sources and trademark, good
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: by the way, a few questions about your GPS project:
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: when it's done, do you think it'll still use an FPGA/CPLD ? or is this still completely open ?
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: then, do you envision that it will have a case ?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: good that you're here ;-) question: how should i describe the origin of the qi-hw project ? "Started by Wolfgang Spraul (ex-Openmoko)" ?
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: hmm. it was a whole group, Steve, Yi, Xiangfu, Mirko Lindner, me
<wolfspraul>
Adam
<wpwrak>
"started by disgruntled ex-openmokoers" ? :)
<wolfspraul>
but honestly we were also following gta02-core at the beginning, in tools
<wolfspraul>
oh, actually
<wolfspraul>
Lars and Mirko Vogt were also there pretty much from the beginning I think
<wolfspraul>
and they did openwrt for gta02 as well before
<wolfspraul>
it's all inter-twined in different ways
<wolfspraul>
and you also didn't rest for one day, the continuity is through gta02-core
<wolfspraul>
which I would have love to support and help with, but it was impossible due to component shortages and just inaccesibility of many pieces
<wpwrak>
so ... "started by disgruntled ex-openmokoers" ?
<wpwrak>
and what would have been the objectives when making the ben ? "get started" ? (even with compromises)
<wolfspraul>
be careful with the om reference
<wolfspraul>
many people do not have the best memories
<wolfspraul>
it's like "oh, the guys that already screwed me over with .... (om product)"
<wolfspraul>
so you either have to be very proud of that history, or just silence it :-)
<wolfspraul>
'disgruntled' is also not good
<wolfspraul>
we were all properly fired
<wolfspraul>
our employer turned to the dark side
<wolfspraul>
I think that's more than fair to say after the record they have accumulated since then
<wolfspraul>
nowadays they explicitly forbit reverse engineering in their tos etc.
<wolfspraul>
so maybe it's the happy ex-om folks :-)
<wolfspraul>
the ones that stick to what is truly good and don't give up on the first speed bump?
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
"started by happily ex-openmokoers" ?
<wolfspraul>
yeah, OM turned right to copyright, the happy folks turned left to copyleft
<wolfspraul>
parting ways :-)
<wpwrak>
ah, and sales figures: how many ben have you sold so far, counting stock at distributors as sold if they've paid for it ? ~1300 ?
<wolfspraul>
yes, about right
<wpwrak>
so happily ex-openmokoers
<wolfspraul>
it's up to you, you remember the entire history same as me
<wolfspraul>
that's a matter of judgment
<wolfspraul>
om reference - yes or no? up to you
<wolfspraul>
disgruntled? no, not me
<wolfspraul>
are you disgruntled?
<wpwrak>
disgruntled about the way things ended
<wolfspraul>
I didn't join 02-core because I saw the component problems early, but I hope that doesn't make me disgruntled.
<wolfspraul>
why? they turned back to their natural habitat
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspraul>
greedy darwinists, bean counters piling up money
<wolfspraul>
if it makes them happy, why not? :-)
<wpwrak>
so .. ben objective: get started ? have a rallying point ? make a first step ?
<wolfspraul>
you can say 'keep the true spirit of om < 2010 alive'
<wolfspraul>
but that's too much om reference imho
<wolfspraul>
ben was to apply all that we had learnt at om
<wolfspraul>
there was a long list somewhere, like 1-10 or so
<wolfspraul>
for example stay out of RF until the rest works
<wpwrak>
so "do product development right " ?
<wolfspraul>
ben is gta02 minus all the stuff that actually doesn't work in gta02 anyway
<wolfspraul>
no?
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wolfspraul>
seriously
<wpwrak>
well, the hi-res lcm worked pretty well
<wolfspraul>
maybe gps works, sort of
<wolfspraul>
nah
<wpwrak>
after years of flicker-fixing ;-)
<wolfspraul>
that's what clogged up all the bandwidth, glamo memory bus etc.
<wolfspraul>
it would have been better to operate the unit in 320x240 all the time, but that was also stupid because now that nice lcm was in the box...
<wolfspraul>
so it's like go down A, and you have a set of problems, go down B, and you have another set of problems
<wolfspraul>
with the Ben the whole thing was so simple that we wouldn't get stuck like this
<wolfspraul>
which is true until today
<wolfspraul>
now we can (and have to) think about the way forward
<wolfspraul>
add features without breaking our ability to maintain the features, fully exploit them, etc.
<wpwrak>
any cpu upgrade will give us more than enough memory bandwidth to do full vga or wvga or such. (if you can find an lcm :)
<wpwrak>
do you know if anything about the hw design of openpandora is open ?
<wolfspraul>
nothing
<wolfspraul>
but that project is so far off-chart by many standards, I do suggest you to not mention it or associate your name with it
<wolfspraul>
they did everything wrong we did with gta02, and much more :-)
<wolfspraul>
until today people who have 'pre-ordere' in late 2008 haven't received their units
<wolfspraul>
of course they paid in 2008...
<wolfspraul>
but now they introduced the concept of 'premium' orders (ahem), which means that if I order now with fresh money, I get served before the guys who pre-ordered and pre-paid in 2008...
<wpwrak>
okay, all closed. then i don't need to make a slide :)
<wpwrak>
makes sense
<wolfspraul>
so they keep enough units around for the premium orders, while continuing to not make good on the people who helped them finance everything
<wolfspraul>
that's not going to go very far, of course :-)
<wolfspraul>
but for now it works :-)
<wolfspraul>
that's just the business side
<wpwrak>
the original buyers are already pissed off or long gone. so you can't gain much ground there :)
<wolfspraul>
technically, they are fighting with huge number of testing issues, broken this and that, returns, etc. like gta02.
<wpwrak>
the joy of manufacturing in china without having a clue ;-)
<wolfspraul>
their hw design is not open, only some pictures of pcbs (and they have said that the hw design is closed and 'theirs', not that anybody would be stupid enough to manufacture it)
<wolfspraul>
no actually it's even better
<wolfspraul>
they manufacture at a company in Texas that is prety much the only company that can do small volume OMAP projects
<wpwrak>
;-)))
<wolfspraul>
but there is enough room for them to add incompetence on top to screw up everything
<wolfspraul>
manufacturing does provide plenty of opportunities for that
<wpwrak>
have they tried china ?
<wolfspraul>
oh god, no
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
save the Chinese from such customers, please
<wpwrak>
ah, then i confused them with some other project
<wolfspraul>
they did mechanical in China
<wolfspraul>
the plastic parts
<wolfspraul>
but anyway, the bottom line for us is, even without the business ethics, that the project has nothing to do with open let alone copyleft hardware
<wolfspraul>
and they successfully screwed over their entire early support base, which will limit their ability to move forward quite a bit
<wolfspraul>
no matter how many 'premium' units they are selling now
<wolfspraul>
there's thousands of pissed-off early supporters waiting in line :-)
<wpwrak>
still need some introductory slide before "sourcing pitfalls" that prepares for the negative tone of what follows
<wpwrak>
the "know unknowns" wuold be mainly manufacturing. well, i can just write "manufacturability"
<wpwrak>
and s/continuation/what follows/
<wolfspraul>
phew, I cannot really keep up with all the tasks flooding me :-)
<wolfspraul>
the 07-01 news may be delayed...
<wpwrak>
how many SIE have you made ?
<wpwrak>
and who was behind the SIE - can i say "university suchandsuch and Sharism Ltd." ?
<wpwrak>
the gerbers of the ben and the rest of the original design files cannot be opened, correct ? (i.e., only the "derived" schematics exist as PDF and in kicad)
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
wait, one by one
<wolfspraul>
SIE was 70 board I think, something like that
<wolfspraul>
the project was really taken on by Tuxbrain
<wolfspraul>
Tuxbrain provided financing
<wpwrak>
so it's all three in there: tuxbrain financing, sharim manufacturing, carlos design ?
<wolfspraul>
so it was UNAL National University of Colombia, with Tuxbrain providing financing and logistics
<wolfspraul>
correct
<wolfspraul>
everything is 100% free and open of course, anybody could continue, in any direction
<wolfspraul>
so basically Sharism Ltd. got an order for 70 boards from Tuxbrain, then we shipped according to Tuxbrain's instructions, most to Bogota, some to Spain
<wolfspraul>
something like that
<wolfspraul>
yield was not good, I think we only had 55-60 in sellable (100% functioning) condition
<wolfspraul>
after 1 week of manual fixing :-)
<wolfspraul>
chaos project
<wpwrak>
yeah, exploding batteries ;-)
<wolfspraul>
yep
<wolfspraul>
'never tried'
<wolfspraul>
that run was done with too little brain, but luckily we survived
<wolfspraul>
I was able to manufacture enough 100% functioning boards in the end, though just barely enough
<wolfspraul>
UNAL + Tuxbrain + Sharism
<wolfspraul>
gerbers of ben, hmm
<wolfspraul>
I think we have pads layout files somewhere
<wpwrak>
i think they're now 100% kicad
<wolfspraul>
which were created by reverse engineering under a license from the copyright owner :-)
<wolfspraul>
that's an arrangement :-)
<wpwrak>
ah, wrong context :)
<wolfspraul>
but they should be 100% the same as the Ben, they are
<wolfspraul>
I didn't want to get the files from the manufacturer and release those same files, I wanted to make sure it's our own work
<wolfspraul>
so we licensed the design and then created our own files
<wolfspraul>
because honestly I don't 100% trust the origin of any files we would get from the manufacturer, no matter what they say...
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspraul>
plus it allowed us to exercise a clean reversing process, learn a lot about that, eventually move to KiCad - all step by step, so nobody can come with FUD to me now and scare me
<wpwrak>
M1 verilog is GPL ?
<wolfspraul>
I think everything new that Sebastien writes is gpl v3
<wolfspraul>
but m1 verilog has about 25% of sources from Lattice
<wolfspraul>
under the famous license you already know about
<wolfspraul>
open source after 3 indirects
<wolfspraul>
the other 75% are mostly gpl v3 I think, some contributors have asked for their patches to be BSD, if I remember correctly
<wpwrak>
great. i just write "GPL" anyway
<wpwrak>
does "one-man megacorp" sound like a good characterization of sebastien ?
<wolfspraul>
don't understand
<wpwrak>
hw design, verilog, operating system, application, marketing material, ... that's a lot of people in one guy :)
<wolfspraul>
yes, the secret is extreme focus
<wolfspraul>
the downside is that the entire codebase is spread extremely thin
<wolfspraul>
from top to bottom
<wolfspraul>
if you venture just one tiny bit out of what Sebastien needed for his stack, the answer will be "not implemented"
<wpwrak>
yeah
<wolfspraul>
which is the right way to launch a project, imho
<wolfspraul>
now others have to fill in the missing thousands of bits, which we have not been that successful at, yet
<wpwrak>
so, "one man megacorp" (provided that he agrees being called that ?)
<wolfspraul>
nah that's confusing
<wolfspraul>
it's highly focused
<wpwrak>
"one man army" ? :)
<wolfspraul>
spread thin across a wide range, make it work fast
<wolfspraul>
there's a downside to everything
<wolfspraul>
the downside here is that it's not very flexible (yet)
<wpwrak>
sure. i can explain that if someone asks
<wolfspraul>
one man army works better, yes
<wolfspraul>
you forgot the GUI toolkit
<wolfspraul>
also new :-) called 'MTK' btw :-)
<wpwrak>
do you agree with slide 3 ? "what is copyleft hardware"
<wolfspraul>
Milkymist ToolKit
<wolfspraul>
and production testing software, also from him
<wpwrak>
that must be a biggie for a device with so many features
<wolfspraul>
don't know, it's just more code
<wpwrak>
do you know if the publicly available fpga documentation is sufficient for using the chip (with the proprietary tools, of course)
<wolfspraul>
nothing really complex, just going through all peripherals, memory testing, etc.
<wolfspraul>
don't understand
<wolfspraul>
'fpga documentation'?
<wolfspraul>
the Spartan-6 has tons of documentation
<wolfspraul>
all for download
<wolfspraul>
dozens of pdfs, thousands of pages
<wolfspraul>
is that what you mean?
<wpwrak>
yes, probably
<wpwrak>
sometimes, companies only give you sort of overview documentation. not just a marketing flyer but also not a real data sheet.
<wolfspraul>
no
<wolfspraul>
everything open
<wpwrak>
how do you like the "dodging patents" slide ?
<wolfspraul>
I am seriously flooded
<wpwrak>
;-_
<wolfspraul>
my downlink is slow, and I'm downloading 5 things in parallel now
<wpwrak>
s/_/)/
<wolfspraul>
I don't even know why I'm downloading this or that
<wolfspraul>
email here, chat there
<wolfspraul>
so... I haven't looked at it yet
<wpwrak>
i should head towards the airport in 3-4 hours. the more i can finish by then, the better ;-)
<wolfspraul>
that's why I try to answer everything here
<wolfspraul>
one point of copyleft hardware is our ability to pick chips that have 100% open documentation
<wolfspraul>
and we are successful in moving there, definitely
<wolfspraul>
I barely remember what NDA stands for...
<wolfspraul>
I think this is something that some poor folks fighting with proprietary Wi-Fi chips are battling with...
<wpwrak>
do you think you could broker a deal with ingenic to open 4760_pm ?
<wolfspraul>
probably not
<wolfspraul>
they don't understand the issue
<wolfspraul>
"you have it already"
<wolfspraul>
I believe it's leaked anyway (not from me)
<wolfspraul>
it's unfortunate but no, they will not help to clean this up
<wpwrak>
well, you can say that there ar hundreds of people out where who sometimes contribute, etc.
<wolfspraul>
they will not help to clean this up
<wolfspraul>
there are many ways to get these documents already
<wpwrak>
but how will they answer if you pose that problem ?
<wolfspraul>
and putting them on the company FTP server is blocked by fear of legal action
<wolfspraul>
meanwhile on the practical side there is no problem, USB stick, copy, done
<wpwrak>
ah, are forecast when "mass-market" M1 will start selling ?
<wpwrak>
s/are/any/
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wpwrak>
(ingenic) so they'll make you understand you should do it below the table
<wolfspraul>
there is a launch
<wolfspraul>
seriously it's a culture issue
<wolfspraul>
they will not even believe that you are still talking about this if you 'already have' it
<wolfspraul>
they will not understand what you want
<wolfspraul>
must be some trick
<wolfspraul>
or maybe you want to play with them make them look stupid?
<wolfspraul>
I can ask for putting on the 'company ftp server'
<wolfspraul>
it's not there now
<wolfspraul>
but it won't happen out of fear of legal action, real or not
<wolfspraul>
and no, I don't think I can make that fear go away
<wpwrak>
you could ask if you can put it on your server :)
<wolfspraul>
I can send you the docs though, if you want :-)
<wolfspraul>
they will not officially answer that. I could risk it, yes.
<wolfspraul>
most likely nothing would happen
<wolfspraul>
but that would cast a shadow over our project
<wolfspraul>
because nobody would believe that 'chinese arrangement'
<wpwrak>
what if you ask in a face to face meeting ?
<wolfspraul>
so that's why I don't want to do that either
<wolfspraul>
yeah sure, smile back
<wolfspraul>
do whatever you like :-) (that's implied anyway, like I said they have a very hard time understanding what I mean if the doc is already on my usb stick...)
<wpwrak>
oh, strange arrangements happen not only in china ... :)
<wolfspraul>
yes but it casts a shadow on Qi
<wolfspraul>
I don't want Qi to be known as doing 'grey' stuff
<wolfspraul>
which may not be true, but some dirt always sticks when thrown at you
<wpwrak>
but you'd do that anyway. only in one case with ingenic's approval, in the other case without it
<wolfspraul>
with an approval I could put the email from the CEO right into the same folder or so
<wolfspraul>
ok I would do that
<wolfspraul>
CEO_EMAIL.TXT
<wolfspraul>
but that won't happen
<wolfspraul>
I don't want to take on that greyness
<wolfspraul>
the documents are available...
<wolfspraul>
in an unfortunate way
<wolfspraul>
but it's not my mission to clean this up
<wolfspraul>
then I rather work harder on Milkymist ...
<wpwrak>
erm. i chnaged the last slide to "the future". what's there ? finish M1, ben-wpan sw (firmware, drivers, etc.), "Dreaming of Ya NanoNote", anything else ?
<wolfspraul>
in page 4 you leave out IC design, llhdl/geometrical stuff/synthesis
<wpwrak>
(grey) it would be sufficient if you have a verbal agreement. (as long as ingenic don't change their mind and go against you, which could be a risk, particularly if they get sued and need a scapegoat) i don't think anyone will ask you to show papers ;-)
<wolfspraul>
no they won't
<wolfspraul>
nothing will happen
<wolfspraul>
but I don't want to do it, it will cast a shadow on Qi
<wolfspraul>
anybody who wants those docs can have them anyway...
<wolfspraul>
why should we take on this cleanup?
<wolfspraul>
I don't want to 'spend' my reputation for that
<wolfspraul>
why don't you put them on almesberger.net ?
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
I don't care
<wolfspraul>
I will mention it again
<wolfspraul>
pms to company ftp server
<wpwrak>
(slide 4) hmm, don't want to deviate from the linear flow of the table. i'll introduce FPGA issues with M1
<wolfspraul>
I mention it every time I go there.
<wolfspraul>
they won't move, fear
<wolfspraul>
they were on the ftp server accidentally for about 2 weeks
<wolfspraul>
incompetent server admin
<wolfspraul>
my mail to thank them for that lead to the removal, ha
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
ok. about the future - any more items ? or changes ?
<wolfspraul>
I don't see that slide
<wolfspraul>
url again?
<wolfspraul>
it says "stay small, poor, out of news" as patent strategy
<wolfspraul>
maybe you add "stay out of Europe, USA"
<wolfspraul>
80%+ of the world population lives in non patent-infested countries
<wpwrak>
hehe :)
<wolfspraul>
either without patents, or ineffective enforcement, or parallel systems with political agenda (china)
<wpwrak>
"stay remote"
<wolfspraul>
MTK turned into a multi-billion USD semiconductor that way
<wolfspraul>
'remote' is realtive
<wolfspraul>
maybe it's the center
<wolfspraul>
from my perspective USA and Europe are 'smaller niche markets'
<wolfspraul>
we can address their special needs later
<wolfspraul>
like some fatty lawyers
<wolfspraul>
no problem
<wolfspraul>
the consumers in those countries want them fed, so we add that stuff, as required
<wolfspraul>
I'm serious
<wolfspraul>
there are 7 billion people
<wolfspraul>
you can market to billions without ever hearing the word 'patent'
<wpwrak>
does M1 have audio out ? or just in ?
<wolfspraul>
and patents are actually easy, it's just like a tax
<wolfspraul>
like a corrupt official in China
<wolfspraul>
not very different
<wolfspraul>
audio in and out
<wolfspraul>
many tax audits in China are 'solved' by paying a special 'audit tax' which is in effect a bribe to the people that audit you
<wolfspraul>
not very different from a patent troll, just different terminology
<wolfspraul>
so if you can make it here, or in many other big '3rd world' markets, the lawyers in Europe and USA are a friendly bunch
<wolfspraul>
their needs will be met as well...
<wpwrak>
yeah. one issue is that many active community members come from patent countries
<wolfspraul>
understood
<wolfspraul>
but in your list 'stay out of USA and Europe' is missing
<wolfspraul>
MTK turned into a top-20 semiconductor like that
<wolfspraul>
don't ignore MTK like Nokia tried so hard, so many years
<wolfspraul>
they violated every patent and copyright law you could come up with in your dreams
<wolfspraul>
every day, multiple times
<wolfspraul>
for 10+ years
<wpwrak>
reshuffling the last few slides. order is not "running a project", "misconceptions", "sourcing", "patents", then "future"
<wolfspraul>
future:
<wolfspraul>
1) protect what we've built so far
<wolfspraul>
2) remember that free software is our core, that's where our innovation and performance comes from
<wolfspraul>
3) don't rest on achievements, aggressively push forward on performance, high-tech, without selling out on our free software nda and roots
<wolfspraul>
4) important areas: mobile, wireless, embedded, interfaces to analog (radar, sonar, ultrasound, sensors, etc)
<wolfspraul>
ha!
<wolfspraul>
not nda
<wolfspraul>
DNA
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
the ghosts from the past
<wolfspraul>
so yes, Ya NanoNote, along those lines - protect what we've built on the Ben, add ben-wpan etc.
<wolfspraul>
maybe also 5) tools
<wolfspraul>
boom, llhdl, layout history, ...
<wolfspraul>
6) be smarter on marketing, sell our story better, what our products can do
<wolfspraul>
7 billion people waiting for great products
<wpwrak>
are there so many already ?
<wpwrak>
wow. they've been breeding a lot
<wolfspraul>
yes, 7 now
<wpwrak>
my memories are still from the 4 billion era :)
<wolfspraul>
and that's the perspective of many chinese manufacturers
<wolfspraul>
they look at about 5 billion potential customers
<wolfspraul>
1.3 at home, another 3-4 outside
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
the rest is unreachable or too poor
<wolfspraul>
I like "there is no tomorrow"
<wolfspraul>
should I download again/
<wolfspraul>
?
<wolfspraul>
any slides you need feedback on?
<wpwrak>
wait a minute .. adding some more stuff
<wolfspraul>
under "let's make an iphone"
<wolfspraul>
the points you describe are all static
<wolfspraul>
but to understand manufacturing the analogy of a running train is better
<wolfspraul>
everything is moving
<wolfspraul>
everybody has investments already
<wolfspraul>
so they just try to find the smallest incremental investments to add new features
<wolfspraul>
iphone is a huge train
<wolfspraul>
high-speed train
<wolfspraul>
hundreds of partners
<wolfspraul>
who have made investments over 10+ years
<wolfspraul>
it is completely idiotic, really, to look at for example the iphone4 and say "we want to make that too"
<wolfspraul>
it's like a big Airbus or Boeing aircraft
<wolfspraul>
lots of know-how, universities, supply chain, etc. etc.
<wolfspraul>
so you have all these moving pieces, and they are coming together in a coordinated way (apple the coordinator)
<wolfspraul>
and then there's an iphone 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ...
<wolfspraul>
we have to get our own train going
<wolfspraul>
as it will be as good as we can make it, and then we need to sell as well as we can, and reinvest the profits, and move forward
<wolfspraul>
once we define copyleft hardware clearly we know which parts we can buy/outsource, and which we want to build ourselves out of free components
<wolfspraul>
that's the characteristics of the train
<wolfspraul>
but this idea to look at some random product you see at amazon, and then say "we will make this", it will always fail. thinking is way too static.
<wpwrak>
(train) hmm yes. of course, others can kinda jump onto the train quickly. lots of cheap tablets in china
<wolfspraul>
nah
<wolfspraul>
you know it's not true
<wpwrak>
emphasis on "cheap" :)
<wolfspraul>
it's crap
<wolfspraul>
it does not work
<wolfspraul>
with someting like an airplane, it's harder to fake, right?
<wolfspraul>
first - it's big
<wolfspraul>
second - it's easy to see whether it flies or not
<wolfspraul>
but a little tablet - sure, many will be on the market (ahem)
<wolfspraul>
no, it doesn't work, really
<wolfspraul>
even if Samsung and others throw serious money at it, and they do have lots of things moving
<wolfspraul>
the moving aspect is important
<wolfspraul>
in manufacturing you don't have snapshots competing with each other
<wolfspraul>
it's a function of this product's performance and the efficiency at which I can move to the next generation
<wpwrak>
you. you notice the details quickly:)
<wolfspraul>
basically if you do this, you will always be late, you will be expensive, and you will never know why :-)
<wpwrak>
ah, another future objective bring ME under control
<wolfspraul>
maybe that fits on your slide
<wolfspraul>
"you will be late, you will be expensive, and you will not know why"
<wolfspraul>
still too long :-)
<wolfspraul>
raumfahrtagentur is doing great work there
<wolfspraul>
with limited resources, but it's the right approach
<wolfspraul>
energy efficient production is a whole topic of its own, hopefully we have enough resources (and sales) one day to dive in there as well, I agree that it's very important to invest there and move towards energy efficient production
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: btw, i think you can remove the "we've been slashdotted" on the qi-hw wiki ;-)
<wolfspraul>
he
<wolfspraul>
yeah
<wolfspraul>
where is it? is the page admin-locked?
<wolfspraul>
gone
<wolfspraul>
thx
<wolfspraul>
sourcing pitfalls: focus on the sources that are actually selling to you: in-stock, lead-time, moq, payment and shipping options
<wolfspraul>
vendor websites are totally irrelevant, more distraction than anything else, unless you buy directly from the vendor
<wolfspraul>
vendor websites are good for datasheets
<methril_>
morning
<methril_>
wolfspraul, unfortunately i'm not going to FISL
<wolfspraul>
was just curious :-)
<wolfspraul>
is it far from you?
<methril_>
it's really near
<methril_>
but i'm not allowed to go, i'veto work
<methril_>
i didn't get free days
<methril_>
and i've visit at home
<methril_>
:(
<wolfspraul>
methril_: he, I see :-)
<wolfspraul>
what does 'really near' mean?
<methril_>
less than 300 Km
<wolfspraul>
do we need to be worried about you being locked up in a dungeon? should we send the Jon & Werner liberation army?
<methril_>
hehehe
<wolfspraul>
ah ok, at least that would be some trip, I see
<methril_>
i'm not in a dugneon :)
<methril_>
i'm in a special working force ;-)
<wpwrak>
special dungeon force :)
<dvdk>
wpwrak: just looked over your slides (the .tex sources in git)
<dvdk>
maybe want to mention debian as well under software running on nanonote?
<wpwrak>
dvdk: afaik, debian doesn't run very well ?
<wolfspraul>
on the Nano?
<wolfspraul>
I think we have, or had, some experts who ran it happily
<dvdk>
well, there seem to be users who run it as main-os on the mailinglist
<wolfspraul>
main thing is memory, I believe our Debian users use swap a lot
<dvdk>
no, of course openwrt/oe is better suited
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: kernel/irq/: EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL functions for dynamic interrupt allocation (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/5cdcaf4
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: spi_atben: correct interrupt cleanup order when removing the driver (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/d8bd10a
<kristianpaul>
wprak, (FPGA/CPLD) it depends, current development platform is milkymist, so FPGA is a sure, if let said we tought in porting to the Nanonote, at least a CPLD will be needed for some basic logic (shifter) to make acquisition easier, in the poorest man case no hardware aceleration could be needed ie, if you can sample data beyond 2MB/s and cheat using SIMD to hopefully speed up something. As a side note osgps was developed for a Penti
<kristianpaul>
wprak,(case) for sure, but before that a proper antenna tought for that case :D
<kristianpaul>
no fpga/cpld hardware at all*
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: ok, thanks
<kyak>
ah, werner left exactly the moment atben/atusb arrived :)
<kristianpaul>
dvdk: thanks for the help yday with octave, i just discoever this SoftGNSS just process real data, but anway the code can be usefull for someobdy else
<kristianpaul>
dvdk: btw you got you qi-hw www-data account already :-) (remenbering just in case)
<dvdk>
kristianpaul: (downloads.qi-hw account) not that i can see.  (tried: ssh, webdav)
<dvdk>
kyak: (build log) ROFL. Â
<dvdk>
"MD5 sum of the downloaded file does not match (file: b6c713a8db638e173af53a62d5178640, requested: b6c713a8db638e173af53a62d5178640) - deleting download."
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: i think dvdk was asking the other time for an account in qi-hw/www
<kristianpaul>
may be you missed the backlog :)
<wolfspraul>
oh, sure
<wolfspraul>
I will check the backlog tomorrow and create the account
<wolfspraul>
you can also create it, of course. very tired now, still a few mails then calling it a day...
<kristianpaul>
oh, sure i forgot time difference
<kristianpaul>
my day just started, shiny sun  and blue sky
<wolfspraul>
nice
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<mth>
MD5 is not very safe these days; are the downloads also checked using a different hash algorithm?
<kristianpaul>
SHA1 + MD5
<mth>
ok, that should be good enough
<kristianpaul>
i used that for signing logs at work
<kristianpaul>
yup
<mth>
I moved to sha256 for openMSX: although it's overkill today I think there will be a time that SHA1 is also considered broken in the not too distant future
<mth>
since it was already weakened by recent developments
<wolfspraul>
good point, you mean the hash values generally in md5sums.txt or so?
<wolfspraul>
can we just put sha256 there? I mean the name would be misleading then, right? maybe we should call it sha256sums.txt ?
<mth>
I don't know exactly, I just saw this: <dvdk> "MD5 sum of the downloaded file does not match (file: b6c713a8db638e173af53a62d5178640, requested: b6c713a8db638e173af53a62d5178640 ) - deleting download."
<mth>
and I was wondering if MD5 was used in addition to something else or just MD5
<wolfspraul>
those two are the same, no?
<mth>
the space was the problem
<DocScrutinizer>
roh: ping
<DocScrutinizer>
roh: could you ask Gismo about some additional nn(n)GB on my box lagrange? how about availability, price, etc. Possibly also sth "shared" and virtually network attached, doesn't have to live inside that vbox
<DocScrutinizer>
it's just a pity to see stuff getting taken down from a public repository, as it obviously been provided in error. It'd be nice to mirror such stuff
<wpwrak>
aah, online again :)
<methril_work>
wpwrak, are you in Brazil?
<wpwrak>
yup. just arrived
<methril_work>
wellcome to Brazil :)
<wpwrak>
thanks ! :)
<kristianpaul>
hey !
<kristianpaul>
how was the trip?
<wpwrak>
short and uneventful. as it shold be:)
<kristianpaul>
talk is today or tomorrow?
<methril_work>
wpwrak, it's cold here isn't it?
<kristianpaul>
(cold) hahaha
<wpwrak>
day after tomorrow. so i still have time to do my slides :)
<kristianpaul>
moment, really?
<wpwrak>
methril_work: yeah. didn't notice much of an improvement compared to buenos aires
<methril_work>
kristianpaul, the south of Brazil has weather like Argentina (Buenos Aires)
<wpwrak>
methril_work: the visitors from far away must be disappointed. no sunny beaches with half-naked girls :)
<kristianpaul>
lo
<kristianpaul>
l
<methril_work>
lol
<methril_work>
wpwrak, no Copocabana, neither Ipanema lol
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: are you going to meet finally with lxo (Alexandre Olive from FSFLA)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: ah, dunno
<kristianpaul>
you can ping him at #fsfla in any case
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: if he's here, maybe :)
<kristianpaul>
yeah.. maybe..
<wpwrak>
now, back to my slides ...
<kyak>
wpwrak: just for info: i got my atben/atusb today, and prepared all tools (ben-wpan/tools and lowpan) both for PC and Ben. My PC has ieee802154 stuff built as modules, so now i'm building the ben-wpan kernel for Ben
<kyak>
today is already too late, i'll start the engine tomorrow :)
<kyak>
wpwrak: btw, ben-wpan kernel won't boot without these patch:
<kyak>
perhaps, i will have to rebuild the PC kernel, too?
<kyak>
anyway, time to sleep..
<roh>
DocScrutinizer: please write a mail.. he is out
<DocScrutinizer>
roh: k, thanx
<kristianpaul>
roh: are you aware of some project trying to bring freedom (in software at least) to network switches and other related appliances
<kristianpaul>
like replacing/improving the default microkernel etc..
<kristianpaul>
happen, that a friend askme recomendation about buying a network-switch, so i prefer said buy a Nway hub or something and implement the rest (VLAN, ACLs.., ) in the endpoints
<roh>
kristianpaul: nope.. not yet.
<roh>
kristianpaul: well.. besides using openwrt based routers as 'managed switches'
<roh>
linux needs 'too much ressources' for low end devices and higher end hardware which would have the ressources is usually shipping with something based on the switch vendors sdk, which use qnx or such
<wpwrak>
rejon: heya ! welcome back on solid ground !
<wpwrak>
rejon: how was the trip ?
<rejon>
good
<rejon>
pretty fast
<wpwrak>
yeah, us to .br is nothing :)
<wpwrak>
rejon: have dinner plans already started to take shape ?
<xMff>
hm, anybody digged through uclibcs locale handling already?
<xMff>
should probably ask in #uclibc but maybe someone here recently played with it
<rejon>
wpwrak, i go zen
<rejon>
without all the whack ideology
<wpwrak>
kyak: have you used the .config from ben-wpan/install/ ?
<wpwrak>
kyak: (rootfs) hmm, that's the "new" one ? odd. i thought i already had switched. but maybe not
<wpwrak>
rejon: (zen) i go "two gin tonic", wash the in-flight meal down with plenty of wine, then "two brandys". and zzz for the rest of the flight :)
<wpwrak>
rejon: that is, for those ~40 h trips to/from openmoko it was two such rounds
<wpwrak>
grmbl. i'm in gentoo update hell. it all started with includegraphics refusing to load a ,jpg . then i tried to update this old machine. latest status: i don't even have xpdf anymore :-(
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: i bet in FISL u can easilly get a compact disk of another distro :)