<wpwrak>
aw: it's not very easy to read, but it's a handy reference because everything is in one place
<DocScrutinizer>
ot question: what's Ben's audiosystem?
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: you mean the codec ? some ac97 built into the SoC
<aw>
wpwrak, do u meant that i need to make your tools firstly then i can just type >> prettygerbv ****** ?
<DocScrutinizer>
nah, I mean the system, like PukeAudio vs ALSA, vs dunno OSS4 whatever
<wpwrak>
aw: no no, prettygerbv is a shell script
<wpwrak>
aw: the makefile i mentioned calls prettygerbv (and a number of other scripts). so you can see there how these things are used
<wpwrak>
aw: e.g., when i want to make the overview in atben or atusb, i simply do "make overview". it will then generate the gerbers, the drill file, convert the drill file to gerber, and finally run prettygerbv
<DocScrutinizer>
I'd guess ylu didn't want PissAudio on such a relatively modest CPU
<wpwrak>
aw: do you have a drill file ? (usb_jtag.drl)
<aw>
wpwrak, you meant drill gerber?
<aw>
wpwrak, let me use your another tool. :-)
<wpwrak>
aw: first the .drl
<wpwrak>
aw: if you don't have it, pcbnew --drill --origin=aux /your/path/usb_jtag.brd
<aw>
wpwrak, i generated it already from gui pcbnew. :-)
<wpwrak>
aw: let's hope the coordinates are right ;-)
<aw>
wpwrak, second . let me try. don't know. :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
(jtag) just idly wondered if somebody finally put JTAG to purpose as meant by those who invented it
<wpwrak>
aw: okay, then you can convert it with drl2gerber
<DocScrutinizer>
on some qi device
<wpwrak>
aw: if the coordinates are wrong, you'll get a BIG image with the board in one corner and all the holes in another. easy to notice ;-)
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: where would be the fun in that ? ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
where <purpose> where originally automatic QA in manufacturing
<DocScrutinizer>
total control over each pin of the main chips, sending H on one chio:pin and see if trace and soldering is OK so H arrives at chip2:pin2
<wpwrak>
aw: (*-drl.pho) hmm, i think i've seen this. looks a bit different from the actual holes, though. prettygerbv tries to make "photo-realistic" output.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: let's try it manually then. drill units: inches, zeros format: decimal, drill origin: auxiliary, all other options off/none
<wpwrak>
oops
<aw>
wpwrak, with your tools, it can let people to see the whole gerber pictures though. :-)
<wpwrak>
s/wolfspraul/aw/
<wpwrak>
whee, lwn. nice ;-)
<kristianpaul>
i feel atusb soon sold out :-)
<wpwrak>
aw: (options) wait .. that doesn't work ...
<aw>
wpwrak, hup? what's that doesn't work?
<wpwrak>
aw: drill origin absolute. then it'll work.
<wpwrak>
aw: in the drill file dialog
<wpwrak>
aw: then drl2gerber, etc.
<wpwrak>
rejon: so you have a good channel to LWN ;-)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: upstreaming - bah! That's one of the worst things I did this year
<wolfspraul>
first make a big plan, ask for feedback, get very nice feedback, then do nothing
<wolfspraul>
really really bad
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: this or last year ? :-)
<wolfspraul>
I sent my mails there in January or so, I think
<wolfspraul>
and I got very encouraging feedback
<wolfspraul>
then silence from me. argh.
<wolfspraul>
not good, I know
<wolfspraul>
my worst job this year, by far
<wolfspraul>
the thing is that I need to push on this freaking m1 rc3 release, it's delayed by several months now
<wolfspraul>
all for good reasons, but I have to get this thing done and into the shop
<wolfspraul>
I'm sold out on m1 right now
<wpwrak>
hmm, don't see them right now. they must be hiding somewhere in the wrong mail folder.
<wolfspraul>
was it in late December? I don't think so
<wolfspraul>
I hacked up the command line stuff around christmas
<wolfspraul>
so must have been January
<wolfspraul>
but it doesn't matter, I dropped the ball there
<wolfspraul>
bad
<wpwrak>
projects that are on time are rushed ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I have to continue 100% on m1 now
<wolfspraul>
imagine tuxbrain wouldn't come to help with ben-wpan!?
<DocScrutinizer>
moo wolfspraul
<kristianpaul>
xiangfu: hi !
<xiangfu>
kristianpaul: hi
<kristianpaul>
xiangfu: in flicernoise, will be nice implement a ramdisk in a proper way, that will help a lot for benchmarks/debug i think, and also me in order to be able to take bigger raw samples from the gps frontend
<kristianpaul>
xiangfu: i can point you again to some sample code and chat log from #rtems about what is needed to do it
<xiangfu>
kristianpaul: ok. thanks.
<wpwrak>
aw: did it go better this time ?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (tuxbrain) yeah, he saved us there
<aw>
kristianpaul, man..you know that i was poor on s/w side now. but indeed the script truely great... i like it.
<wolfspraul>
but I don't know whether/how/when we can make this go anywhere now, or should even try
<wolfspraul>
I am very interested in wireless connectivity
<wolfspraul>
we have ben-wpan now, we need a lot of luck, and then in 1 year we have a great software stack for it :-)
<kristianpaul>
aw: you will not believe but i never had done a script before..
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul works on gps-sdr, also fine
<kristianpaul>
i need improve on that path some day, for now memory still good :)
<wolfspraul>
what's missing is a longer range wireless protocol
<kristianpaul>
how longer?
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: just pondering about contributing as much as possible to community hive wisdom about that ancient abandoned project
<wolfspraul>
we looked at the ISM stuff (hoperf modules), but maybe not so interesting
<wolfspraul>
then we hvae the gsm/3g/edge/lte world, well, I am following now
<wolfspraul>
I support osmocom a little, mostly just watching though
<wolfspraul>
I know where I can source any mtk chip, if needed
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: I'd care about it, if we could get 'OK' from whoever owns the rights of the gta02 PADS project files now
<wolfspraul>
but I have no clear feelings on that side now, anything longer range. So for the time being I focus on the 802.15.4 stuff Werner started, short-range stuff
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: get some chinese company to add a 10 W RF amplifier and we can go ~700 m ;-)
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: I'm definitely the wrong person to ask about that.
<DocScrutinizer>
that's why I asked if you are involved anymore
<wolfspraul>
I'm not sure but I think I have a good chance to still be #1 on Billy's persona-non-grata list
<DocScrutinizer>
I gaher you're also not inclined to talk to <owner> about it?
<wolfspraul>
you or me have the same powers about sending mails
<DocScrutinizer>
aah ok
<wolfspraul>
most likely they will go answered
<wolfspraul>
when you are high up there (ahem), the problems of us lowly workers are not worth too much attention...
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: well, maybe you should ask about the gerbers. that may cause some uneasiness on the receiving end. like "damn, are they STILL not dead ?" :)
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: so you got any clue who's the right persn to ask now? Still SMP?
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: err, i mean design files
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: on the long range stuff, in addition to following osmocom, pondering about lte chips, mtk chips, I am also following some IETF white-space developments
<wolfspraul>
or 802.22 (I think that's what it was)
<wolfspraul>
but that's all just for crazy thinking once in a while, none of that is real
<wolfspraul>
as werner pointed out I'm not even living up to small upstreaming promises right now...
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: seriously, you have absolutely none, zero, chance to get anything out of there.
<wolfspraul>
I've tried to tell this politely to Werner years ago when he believed in some support, well, Werner found out later :-)
<wolfspraul>
you may ask well email ceo@nokia.com to release the N900 gerbers
<wpwrak>
sigh
<wolfspraul>
ooh, typo above, I meant "most likely they will go unanswered"
<wolfspraul>
just try :-)
<wolfspraul>
send another one about n900 gerbers to ceo@nokia.com, see which one gives you a more meaningful answer :-)
<wolfspraul>
10W RF amplifier...
<wolfspraul>
makes me thinking here :-)
<wolfspraul>
how come a good old GSM phone can send signals 5+ km? and ben-wpan only 10m ?
<wolfspraul>
why is that so?
<DocScrutinizer>
GSM=500mW
<DocScrutinizer>
wpan=2mW
<DocScrutinizer>
also frequency/band makes a difference
<wolfspraul>
if a wpan would just scream out loud with 500mW too, what would happen to other wpans nearby?
<wpwrak>
sqrt(500mW/2mW)*10m = 158 m. GSM still beats us :-(
<wolfspraul>
the 500mW wpan would drown out everybody else within a long range, no?
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: 900MHz vs 2400MHz
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: everybody, including wifi, bluetooth, ...
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: some f^2 law ?
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: wolfspraul: then you mustn't miss the pretty decent antenna of BTS
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: kinda
<wpwrak>
calculates ...
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: the higher the freq, the more you need line of sight
<wpwrak>
158m*(2.4GHz/0.9GHz)^2 = 1124 m. we're getting there. add massive antenna gain and the numbers work.
<DocScrutinizer>
I guess with a tower and antennae like on a BTS for one end of wpan, you'd get up to 500m with 2mW
<wpwrak>
oh, and the 10 m range for wpan may be a bit on the low side. tuxbrain got ~12 m and we still don't know how good/bad the boards really are. someone with real RF knowledge and a lab will have to find out.
<wolfspraul>
"real RF knowledge", that must be me
<wolfspraul>
I know how to turn on my phone!
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: hehe ;-)
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: ah, and GSM is a much lower data rate. that helps too.
<wpwrak>
s/is/has/
<DocScrutinizer>
sure
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: btw, how do you like my rants on the ben-wpan wiki page ?
<DocScrutinizer>
taking another nap, got an appointment in 3h
<DocScrutinizer>
o/
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: maybe when you get up then - do you know anything about the TV white-space stuff? 802.22? are there any RF ICs we could hookup to get some longer-range (hopefully) communication going?
<wolfspraul>
or is this just a bad direction overall...
<wolfspraul>
there has been so much wiki editing, not sure what you mean
<wolfspraul>
somehow Jon got a snippet up on lwn.net, that is good
<wolfspraul>
where does that point to? lemme check
<wolfspraul>
god, points to 10 different places
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wpwrak>
the wiki page is still a mess. inconsistencies, etc. i just put a pointer to my page at the beginning. i hope people use it ;)
<wolfspraul>
short and up-to-date is good
<wolfspraul>
if David manages to get something on slashdot, it should point to your page right away, and only to that
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (wiki editing) the three sections i mentioned in the mail on which i copied. particularly "How is this patent free wireless?"
<wolfspraul>
in fact that may have been one reason for the rejection last time - I think they hate little articles that point in all sorts of directions
<wolfspraul>
me too, btw
<wolfspraul>
imagine you find out about something new, you only saw some snippets/words that caught your interest
<wolfspraul>
now you want to learn more, but you have 5 links pointing in all crazy directions on the Internet
<wolfspraul>
not nice :-)
<wpwrak>
yeah, that's a bit wikipedia style. every word a link :)
<wolfspraul>
for someone reading an encyclopedia that's fine
<wpwrak>
not that i'd necessarily mind, but there should be at least a consistent story, and if there's one link that's more important than the rest, it should clearly stick out
<wolfspraul>
but when I read a news post, and I want to read more, I want to be sent to one, and exactly one, place
<wpwrak>
kinda those "(more)" buttons
<wolfspraul>
I think they do that [more] to find out reliably how far people are actually reading
<wpwrak>
yes, that must be the real motivation
<wpwrak>
so, removed some more misconceptions. the 2nd sentence still gives me a bellyache. it's not using UBB, and yes, there is new testing software as well, it's not the main point. brr. confusing.
<wpwrak>
phew. cleaned up the worst. i hope :) let's see what nightmares will crawl out of it :)
<kyak>
tuxbrain_HxxHhzo: is it possible to order now from tuxbrain.com? (you mentioned that you wanted to update the shipment cost to Russia)
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: I have no idea about 802.22 yet - will dig into it a bit. If I find interesting stuff or remarkable factoids I'll let you know
<wolfspraul>
nice, thanks
<wolfspraul>
I think it's all quite speculative right now
<wolfspraul>
I'm looking for something that can be as free as ben-wpan, but longer range
<DocScrutinizer>
generally longer range means more trouble about cert
<rejon>
yeah wpwrak wolfspraul that wiki page for ben-wpan was an attempt to get something down, and to understand/explain to others
<rejon>
i completely agree important to have a to-the-point page
<rejon>
previously stuff locked in brains and in git repos ;)
<rejon>
ideally the project would even have a good name so don't need a page at all
<rejon>
;)
<rejon>
anyway, i don't know how that got onto lwn
<kyak>
it has been failing to build for months now
<kyak>
the patch is trivial and works
<kyak>
xiangfu: how do you think, would it be usefull to have a file listing packages that failed to build ?
<kyak>
that would save some work downloading and grep'ing that BUILD_LOG :)
<xiangfu>
kyak: yes. it will be usefull for sure.
<xiangfu>
yes
<kyak>
i can have a look into doing that
<DocScrutinizer51>
wolfspraul: seems 802.22 is in fight with 802.11af
<DocScrutinizer51>
wolfspraul: last I heard  about the so called 'digitale dividende' from switching to DVB-T and thus freeing channels (white space) been that it shall get used by carriers to bring proper internet to rural areas here in D. Which would conflict wit the 'licence free' of 802.22
<xiangfu>
kyak: great. thanks.
<kyak>
xiangfu: done :)
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: >> Grundsätzlich lässt sich bezüglich einer Einführung von CR-Geräten sagen, dass Sensing alleine nicht zu einer ausreichenden Interferenzminimierung führt, so dass nur bei Kleinleistungsgeräten, bei denen eine weitestgehende Interferenzminimierung nicht erforderlich ist, diese Technik alleine genutzt werden kann. Für andere Anwendungen, die CR-Technik in hierarchischer Nutzung einsetzen, ist Geo- lokalisierung mit
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: so it's basically lost case for long range non-cert trouble-free connections
<wolfspraul>
not really, because this geo-locations with database backend is what people are working on
<DocScrutinizer>
as you will need a database to make sure you're not causing trouble for nearby receivers trying to catch weak signal of a prioritized broadcast station
<DocScrutinizer>
indeed, that's the prerequisite to use higher TX power, but that would need some sort of network connection AIUI, so you'd have access to that database
<DocScrutinizer>
given the publication dates of related documents, I'd guess it'll take another few years til this tech is commonly adopted, except of course for 802.11af aka WiFi(R)
<DocScrutinizer>
once WiFi 802.11af gets established it becomes a prioritized technology on the bands it uses, in a sense that other concurrent technology must guarantee interference free operation, which renders 802.22 basically incompatible and thus useless for the same freq ranges - my shoot from da hip take on it
<DocScrutinizer>
plus, as mentioned, I seem to recall statements of regulatory and gvmt speakers to the effect they want to give TV white space to carriers on a commercial basis, so they can roll out "wimax-II" on it, for DSL alike service in rural areas
<DocScrutinizer>
at least here in germany
<DocScrutinizer>
JFYI, will loosely follow up on the topic and occasionally toss over another remark, link, quotation... whatever
<DocScrutinizer>
one last comment: I guess chip market is sparse atm, as there's no real volume customer base
<DocScrutinizer>
yet
<DocScrutinizer>
first to come: probably 802.11af chipsets, which quite likely are "downscalable" to 802.22
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: yes correct, ICs is what I am mostly interested in
<wolfspraul>
and I think to a large part ICs will drive regulation too
<wolfspraul>
in that sense I don't care so much what a regulator in Germany has to say about this right now
<wolfspraul>
they may say something else next year
<wolfspraul>
and in the end, once you have functioning products that you sell to end users directly, that's something that is very hard to stop in any case
<wolfspraul>
not to say bust the regulator, but my point is - if the FCC moves forward with something, and creates a big market, and some IC makers invest a lot of money to make cheap and powerful chips, that creates a lot of momentum (and pressure) for regulators elsewhere...
<DocScrutinizer>
you'll see this happen... for WiFi
<wolfspraul>
I'll read up on 802.11af
<wolfspraul>
German regulators don't have enough critical mass anymore to drive large-scale IC investments
<wolfspraul>
imho
<DocScrutinizer>
once the WiFi association sells 802.11af in large numbers, you're screwed on CR 802.22
<wolfspraul>
FCC does, but even they need to speed up, otherwise something is developed in China and sold throughout the entire 3rd world, creating a momentum that will then force the FCC to just slap their stuff around it or become irrelevant
<DocScrutinizer>
It's about WiFi association mafia, not any German regulator
<wolfspraul>
ok fine - if you see interesting chips please holler
<wolfspraul>
the world is a big place, many things are happening :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: have you ever seen FCC or USA at large care about rest of the world? At best in a sense like "they use GSM900/1800, so let's do it differently here to protect our markets"
<DocScrutinizer>
(holler) sure thing
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: I don't know, I don't follow regulation closely
<wolfspraul>
I think there is also competition between regulatory bodies
<wolfspraul>
everybody wants to have the 'important' standards
<DocScrutinizer>
:shrug:
<DocScrutinizer>
maybe
<DocScrutinizer>
then USA FCC is performing really poor on that :-P
<wolfspraul>
so sometimes a standard from a competing body is just renumbered and reissued. quite a bit of heat between ITU and IETF for example.
<wolfspraul>
I'm just looking for great chips
<wolfspraul>
in the end really great chips require a lot of investment
<wolfspraul>
so whoever invests that must have a strong idea how to sell the volume required to recoup the investment
<DocScrutinizer>
every now and then I get to know about a new chip. I'll drop you a note instantly
<wolfspraul>
once that has happened, I don't care how or why it happened, I just want to source that chip for a few USD
<wolfspraul>
the next problem is regulatory oversight in particular markets
<wolfspraul>
which I have no problem with, just need to understand and see how to comply
<wolfspraul>
but in that order, for me :-)
<wolfspraul>
otherwise I get lost debating all sorts of hypothetical regulation
<wolfspraul>
the white-space stuff looks like it has some momentum
<DocScrutinizer>
sure, just saying WiFi is the only interest group with enough power to push chips
<wolfspraul>
how much? don't know
<wolfspraul>
I'm sure about that
<wolfspraul>
also I don't think potential multi-billion USD investments are driven by regulatory decisions, I think it's the other way round
<wolfspraul>
so you are right, Wi-Fi has huge capital, they can make chips, and drive regulation
<DocScrutinizer>
that's the reason why I think 802.22 won't fly in the end
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain_HxxHhzo: how are atben/atusb sales so far?
<wolfspraul>
unless you want to hide your riches and don't tell us :-)
<wolfspraul>
methril_work: sorry I lost track. Didn't you get a milkymist one too?
<methril_work>
wolfspraul, i get
<methril_work>
wolfspraul, i'm not having time t owork on ... right now
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_HxxHhzo: btw, are my ben-wpan boards already on the way ? if yes, can you please send me the tracking number so that i know when to pay attention ?
<rejon>
there's no freaking link to buy them or the info about them!!!!
<kristianpaul>
but the source is tuxbrain
<kristianpaul>
also prices include taxes it seems
<kristianpaul>
ah, okay for some reason gpredict mismatch the name for this satellites
<rejon>
read the comments
<wpwrak>
good comments so far. it was clear that a lot of people wouldn't like the speed. some will also discover the range and find more to bitch about :)
<zear>
wpwrak, not like bt was ever useful for anybody despite every second handheld device having it ;)
<zear>
people will simply bitch about anything, i for one love the idea of an openhardware wireless standard
<rejon>
the register article is pretty good wpwrak
<wpwrak>
"Nokia Windows Phones will launch in six European nations first, Finland not among them" i think they're really set on doing *everything* right ;-)
<dvdk>
wpwrak: (sections) still missing a TOC though :)
<wpwrak>
and maybe an appendix with formulas ? ;-)
<dvdk>
ok, rewrote the article.  now much more concise.  people will have to click through werner's page to get to tuxbrain or see details.