<wpwrak> oh, so no broken cables ? that's actually good
<wpwrak> (vga) yeeah ! ;-)
<wolfspraul> ah hold, maybe 1 broken cable, yes
<grunthus> how small are the solder connections?
<wolfspraul> it has a small punctured hole in it, very strange
<wolfspraul> right in the middle of the hinge, no idea how that hold got there
<wolfspraul> hole
<wolfspraul> maybe it was punctured already during assembly, and only failed later
<wolfspraul> grunthus: if you are up for it, you can definitely try to disassemble the ben and see whether reseating the cable fixes the issue
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: so no cables with hairline cracks ? that's the one i'd dislike the most.
<wolfspraul> tuxbrain will take your device back and replace it with a new one even if you 'hacked' it a little :-)
<wolfspraul> that's assuming that you be nice to the Ben and really just try to fix the cable, not some wilder hacking, then your Ben is really yours :-)
<grunthus> wolfspraul: I'll probably try to fix it then. Only not tonight, after a glass of wine!
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: no I don't remember [hairline cracks]
<wolfspraul> grunthus: yes of course, let's do it! That's more fun anyway. If we fail, you get the Ben replaced anyhow.
<grunthus> I see 3 screws, one in battery comp., two in front base.
<grunthus> Looks like they will release keyboard surround from base?
<wpwrak> grunthus: there's a 4th screw, on the other side of the battery. may be covered by some sticker
<grunthus> Found the fourth screw.
<grunthus> My miniature screwdriver set here is not miniature enough. Will need to get another one tomorrow.
<grunthus> Are you likely to be around at all?
<wpwrak> grunthus: you may find these instructions useful: http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2011-April/007766.html
<wpwrak> #qi-hardware never sleeps ;-)
<grunthus> hehe!
<grunthus> OK, got the link and will work on it tomorrow.
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: in which way did you think Linaro can help us?
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: they may know sources of financing. they themselves are non-profit yet have a sizeable workforce. maybe they know people who want more than just ARM ?
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: also, there seems to be ubuntu money in there. you never know where that may want to go. and ubuntu is certainly about long-term strategy, just as we are.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: their cto, davis rusling, will be at linuxcon in japan next week. may be a good time to ping him. see what he says. if he sounds interesting/interested, maybe you could meet in person. linuxcon: http://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/linuxcon-japan
<grunthus> goodnight.
<wolfspraul> n8
<wolfspraul> he :-)
<wolfspraul> ok, got it
<wolfspraul> my understanding of arm is that it is basically initiated by ARM Ltd, and they are beating the drums to get their customers or other players in the 'ecosystem' to pay money to linaro for support
<wolfspraul> like a pool
<wolfspraul> then Linary spends that money mostly on engineering for the greater good of the platform
<wolfspraul> I hope they don't fork the kernel, as long as their work is directed towards kernel.org it should be a good thing
<wolfspraul> I highly doubt they are interested in anything non-arm
<wolfspraul> even with arm, the fee to have your device/company supported is typically 3 million USD / year
<wpwrak> they seem to focus strongly on mainline
<wolfspraul> but nothing bad about extracting some money from big corps who would otherwise be ignorant or wouldn't even know how to feed money to 'upstream'
<wolfspraul> great
<wolfspraul> from the people they hire on the engineering side that probably comes more or less automatically
<wpwrak> they may not be interested themselves in non-arm, but they may know someone who is
<wpwrak> heh ;-)
<wpwrak> so i would just present the qi-hw effort with its highlights (ben, linux support for it, mm1, rtems/partial linux, wpan), and explain our predicament. ask if they have useful contacts, who would be interested in long-term investment along these lines
<wpwrak> if you consider the meager resources of qi-hw, the results are quite amazing. that may ring some bell.
<wolfspraul> with my understanding of linaro, that wouldn't make any sense
<wolfspraul> they are essentially an engineering pool setup to funnel resources into 'arm upstream' into kernel.org
<wpwrak> i wouldn't try to get linaro to get involved directly. but see if they can refer us to someone who can be useful
<wolfspraul> between arm ltd. and their large customers, or anyone they can convince to pay x million USD / year into linaro
<wolfspraul> then linaro spends it on hiring individual kernel hackers
<wolfspraul> now...
<wolfspraul> ARM is a highly proprietary chip company, they believe in their IP, for-money licenses to that IP, etc.
<wpwrak> yes, so they've figured out how to solve part of the problem qi-hw has
<wolfspraul> oh sure, they have very profitable proprietary ip that can fund engineering of open source drivers/kernel to sell more of that proprietary ip
<wolfspraul> that model is easy to understand, and Linaro is doing well, and a good thing for ARM
<wpwrak> no, i mean linaro, not arm
<wolfspraul> that's the same thing. linaro is a pool of money ARM setup, and they get their large customers to pay into that pool
<wolfspraul> then the pool spends the money on high-quality upstream-capable kernel hackers
<wolfspraul> something those companies paying into the pool may not be able to do themselves, or they still want to do that in addition to what they do in-house
<wolfspraul> arm has been quite successful in getting people to understand the importance of this and pay into linaro, so that's a good thing
<wolfspraul> for arm, of course
<wpwrak> yup
<wolfspraul> with Milkymist we are all out alone :-)
<wpwrak> i wouldn't try to get into linaro's model. but to see if we can milk them for contacts. they must talk to a lot of people. certainly not all of them are just 100% arm.
<wpwrak> don't forget the nanonote ! :)
<wolfspraul> nobody supporting it on the compiler side, no customers who could pay into a pool, nothing. Just a few people :-)
<wpwrak> typical for an immature project. mm1 needs probably 2 real product runs before it can become sustainable.
<wpwrak> nanonote needs one more, if it's played well
<wolfspraul> first I was talking about Milkymist the SoC
<wpwrak> both are "cheap", as such things go
<wolfspraul> Linaro is a model to support a proprietary chip better in kernel.org
<wpwrak> sure. you don't want their business.
<wpwrak> but they ought to have contacts that are of use for us. contacts they wouldn't mind giving away, if asked nicely.
<wpwrak> they seem to understand the principles of doing successful kernel work. you could connect there.
<wpwrak> the achievements of qi-hw are, considering the size, quite stellar. in the kernel area, mainly thanks to larsc.
<wpwrak> the success story of qi-hw so far is the ben. limited in power, limited in openness, but it works. has top-notch mainline support. no less than two major embedded distributions support it.
<wpwrak> mm1 is the next thing. risky. exploring into areas no man has ventured before. but consistent with the philosophy.
<wpwrak> now, the ben needs a successor. badly. we can do better. there has been incremental development. take ben-wpan. everything that happens there is 100% open. no proprietary tools or formats.
<wpwrak> so, take the experience of ben-wpan, merge with nanonote, and add what we haven't dared to tackle yet, namely case design (and preparing for compliance/certification)
<wpwrak> this should a) produce a better product, b) help to keep the community alive and even grow, c) provide a proof of concept that the whole approach works.
<wpwrak> now, the issue is finding someone who thinks this is worthwhile.
<wolfspraul> I don't know about the third product yet, I need to really settle m1 first
<wpwrak> traditional investors probably don't. but there ought to be folks who would, if it was shown to them in the right way. linaro may know such people.
<wolfspraul> which is making good progress
<wolfspraul> no way, I still didn't get my point about linaro across
<wolfspraul> linaro is an engineering pool
<wolfspraul> non-profit doesn't mean much, they are very much using real money and can only spend as much as they make
<wpwrak> yes yes. our biz model, as far we can call it than, isn't theirs. perfectly clear.
<wolfspraul> 'non-profit' from ARM's perspective, yes
<wolfspraul> ARM did a good thing with Linaro
<wolfspraul> remember how so many people tried to explain all sorts of big corps about 'upstream'
<wolfspraul> with limited success
<wolfspraul> Linaro solves that problem outside of those corps
<wpwrak> sure
<wolfspraul> now they can wire x million USD to somewhere, and the money will be used in a good way
<wolfspraul> and ARM is pushing it, i.e. inviting their customers to pay into this pool
<wolfspraul> so it's 'official' and those corps are not worried about wasting their money
<wolfspraul> MIPS and others should do something similar, even Intel could do something like that
<wolfspraul> I really like the clarity of the model
<wpwrak> so, linaro understand how this works. this means that they will also understand why what we do is good. this means that we have basic credibility with them.
<wolfspraul> Linaro's model
<wpwrak> now, they talk to people doing hardware. probably lots of them. all sorts of ideas, directions, whatever.
<wolfspraul> if Linaro is 'relatively' independent from ARM (which I doubt), then Linaro management would probably be open-minded about being approached from Intel about extending the company (Linaro) to cover x86 as well
<wpwrak> what they could do for us is to filter their contacts for those who could have common goals with us. and pass them on.
<wolfspraul> maybe the type of engineering linaro offers has less value on x86 than on arm...
<wpwrak> we're obviously far out in crazy land to be a direct threat. so why shouldn't they help a distant cousin in arms ?
<wpwrak> (not ARMs ;-)
<wpwrak> i think the key is to find some common ground. then try to extend it.
<wolfspraul> I wouldn't know how to talk to anybody from Linaro, well maybe that's a reason to try, in your spirit :-)
<wpwrak> in this case, the common ground would be the non-trivial understanding of how open source development works. and, in our case, extrapolating it. that makes what we do interesting.
<wolfspraul> but I think when you read about Linaro, you only see 'upstream' and then you think there is some overlap
<wpwrak> you could just say "we're qi-hw, our objectives are this, we've already done that, but now we need money. we're too stupid to find someone who can help us. do you know someone who could ?"
<wolfspraul> Linaro wants to find more paying customers. If the Ben had an ARM chip, and we had a few million USD to spare and would generally struggle with upstream, Linaro would be glad to talk to us.
<wolfspraul> none of those 3 are true though :-)
<wolfspraul> we have no ARM, we have no money that would even cover 1 Linaro business trip, we are not struggling with upstream
<wpwrak> yes, "upstream" rang a bell. as it should for them. remember, the key is to establish credibility. if the person you contact thinks you're good, you may get a result. if they don't know what gibberish you're talking about, they'll just ignore you.
<wpwrak> no no. don't invade on their business. make it a favour, lent to a friendly neighborhood enterprise.
<wpwrak> the overlap serves to establish credibility. they "grok" upstreaming. so tell them that's what we do for breakfast. on a shoestring. that'll impress them.
<wpwrak> while they're impressed, they (well, the person you're talking to) would be willing to help. not with money, because there's no business in it for linaro, but with contacts. contacts that are a better fit.
<wolfspraul> I'm wondering about the relationship between ARM/RVDS and Linaro/gcc
<wolfspraul> if Linaro had the green light to really improve gcc for arm, that would be great
<wolfspraul> even better if ARM would donate RVDS to Linaro, as a copy/paste source
<wolfspraul> ARM's proprietary (and expensive) compiler outperforms gcc so much it's not funny
<wolfspraul> 20-30% faster code _and_ 20-30% smaller code
<wpwrak> hmm
<wpwrak> maybe they want to keep it that way ;-)
<wolfspraul> I'm just reading about Linaro's work, and gcc caught my eye
<wolfspraul> well Linaro does work in gcc, that's why I was wondering
<wolfspraul> and Ubuntu uses the Linaro gcc now
<wpwrak> besides, 20-30% squared is just about one year ;-)
<wpwrak> yeah, there's some line between the two. that's also something i'd consider an interesting path: ubuntu/canonical is about strategic planning. for several years, they've been sinking lots of money without return whatsoever.
<wpwrak> so qi-hw shouldn't look half crazy to them. that is, if they see a light at the _end_ of the tunnel.
<wpwrak> s/line/link
<wpwrak> again, linaro could be the conduit to pass such information.
<wpwrak> but i don't think it's necessary to push in any specific direction. just gain respect, outline the problem in plain terms, ask if they know someone who can help. i would put that indirection, though. else, they may think you want money from them, like so many other beggars every day.
<wpwrak> "they" would of course be the person you contact. keeping it narrow avoids the "someone will take care of it so i don't have to" reaction that will happen in 100% of the people who could take care of it.
<wpwrak> did i convince you ? :)
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/atben.fig: cover unused PCB space with a white rectangle http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/caa8c14
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/setup.hmac: described PC and Ben software and test script installation http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/6ac10dd
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/setup.hmac: filled the intro sections; added dfu-util installation http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/717f7e7
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/: added scope screen shots to analysis; show crystal as alt GND for clk http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/c93f6d9
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/: renamed at???-clk*.png to scope-*, to prevent wildcard clash http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/d884ab5
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/test.hmac: added introductory text for test setups http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b583142
<larsc> just scared him away
<wpwrak> it's late breakfast time in china. maybe the wolf just went hunting :)
<wolfspraul> nah, it's 06-01 news day today
<wolfspraul> have to start cleaning this up a bit ;-)
<wolfspraul> Lars - you are our Linaro!
<wpwrak> heh, getting an early start this month :)
<wolfspraul> not another embarassment like last month
<wolfspraul> as usual it's a LOT, I will need to spend some time on it
<wolfspraul> I think I also want to mention azonenberg's DIY wafer stuff, it's just too exciting
<wpwrak> "we have something similar to your 100+ man/xxx MUSD company. we call him 'larsc'" ;-)
<wolfspraul> I am 100% sure if Lars wanted to, he could accept a nicely paid position at Linaro.
<wpwrak> yeah, cool stuff there, definitely :)
<wpwrak> pssst !
<wolfspraul> Linaro seems to be off to a good start, they have money, they seem to be able to convert the money into meaningful progress, all good.
<wolfspraul> ARM is successful in convincing their ecosystem partners to pay into the Linaro pool
<wolfspraul> I have never seen an upstream support model implemented to successfully by any chip maker.
<kristianpaul> well, ubuntu for ARM will call much atention tought..
<wolfspraul> most are just singling out a few people to work on that 'upstream thing'
<wolfspraul> but inside the chip makers, enthousiasm for that is limited, essentially you just do dirty cleanup work that the best people don't want to do, no recognition from management, etc.
<wolfspraul> I've seen that many times
<wpwrak> the only thing surprising about it is that google aren't well ahead of them. i guess that shows that they've gotten too fat already.
<wpwrak> oh, it's a system with many local maxima. some choose to get caught in one of them :)
<kristianpaul> well, just matter of see what have to offer those xilinx fpga with arm core inside ;-)
<kristianpaul> i remenber larsc pointed they we're working on upstream it?..
<kristianpaul> i mean, i see this like a excuse, to talk then no more :-)
<kristianpaul> okay now i need some ramdisk.
<rjeffries> wpwrak wolfspraul does not show interest into Nanonote follow-on. MM is his focus, period.
<rjeffries> s/into/in/
<kristianpaul> "at this time" = once at the time..
<kristianpaul> so at this time i'm going bed :-)
<kristianpaul> bye
<wolfspraul> phew, my vpn machine disappeared for a few hours :-)
<kyak> did you think for a second they are coming for you, too? :)
<wolfspraul> no
<LunaVorax> Ballmer said about Windows piracy in China "If you can afford a PC, you could afford the software"
<LunaVorax> Well in that case if they can afford a PC, why now afford a Ben ? :)
<vladkorotnev> :)
<LunaVorax> Ok ok, a bigger Ben with a screen, mouse, USBs ports, Ethernet and a real keyboard ;)
<LunaVorax> But still is :D
<vladkorotnev> A bigger Ben is a OpenWRT-based PC :P
<LunaVorax> I don't see the problem :P
<LunaVorax> There's two computers I want to buy for a long time now
<LunaVorax> A Loongson computer
<LunaVorax> And the next Amiga X1000
<LunaVorax> But I'm not rich :'(
<kyak> "If you can afford a PC, you could afford the software" - a typical thing to say for some rich fuck
<kyak> who has no idea about how people survive
<wpwrak> he's right, though. linux has nearly zero cost :)
<kyak> if you can afford bread, you can afford butter. Same thing
<kyak> wpwrak: i think he meant "you can afford buying"
<wpwrak> kyak: that linux cd can't be all that expensive either ;-)
<kyak> wpwrak: sorry, might have missed your irony :)
<kyak> this words made me angry
<wpwrak> well, what else can he say ? "be copyous and prosper" ? ;-)
<kyak> he might say that at his deathbad :)
<wpwrak> ask anyone in traditional textile manufacturing (i.e., the manual one) what they think of those fancy new steam-powered machines and all the hype about that industrial revolution fad :-)
<wpwrak> i'm sure you can find very educated writings from that epoch that clearly explain why such devil's work must fail
<wpwrak> a library search among luddite literature might be fun. you could probably piece together a coherent statement for strong intellectual property rights and against free software only using quotes from 18th century texts
<wpwrak> well, or 19th century. back in the 18th, the machines weren't perceived as much of a threat yet
<kyak> wpwrak: this could mean that there is a chance for humanity on 22nd century :)
<viric> wpwrak: there is a nice film about that...
<viric> I should recall it
<wpwrak> kyak: just imagine the educational and human capital that could be freed if society abolished patents and similar nonsense :)
<viric> from peter sellers...
<wpwrak> peter sellers on open source ? that sounds like fun :)
<viric> hehe
<viric> maybe I remember bad... but I remember as if in the film, workers strike against the addition of machines in the factories
<whitequark> wpwrak: don't you think that education done by patent trolls won't be even more harmful? :)
<kyak> wpwrak: yeah, and how much smaller the amount of millionaires would be? :)
<viric> kyak: no matter what you do, the amount of millionaries decreases, those resting getting far more rich
<kyak> so true, they are becoming billionaries :)
<viric> that film from Sellers got forbidden in the Spanish dictatorship, iirc, because it showed too much strength by the unions
<wpwrak> hmm, i'm kinda anti-union myself. too much potential for abuse. i guess i'm an anarchist at the bottom of my heart. so no to kleptocrats of whatever couleur :)
<qi-bot> [commit] kyak: luit: Locale and ISO 2022 support for Unicode terminals http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/7f2174a
<qi-bot> [commit] kyak: luit: Locale and ISO 2022 support for Unicode terminals http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/f370d5c
<GNUtoo> lol
<roh> wpwrak: yes, qcad
<vladkorotnev> hello everyone
<vladkorotnev> if /tmp is a ramdisk, does it use swap partitions as well?
<viric> vladkorotnev: I always forget about it
<vladkorotnev> viric: it seems that a prog I am trying to compile uses too much space in /tmp, so it crashes with a 'No space left on device' error.
<viric> 'mount' will tell you the size of that filesystem. Or 'df' too
<viric> you can use remount to change it
<viric> I don't know if it can use swap or not
<vladkorotnev> and also, is there any way to make the program think that /data/folder is / ?
<viric> vladkorotnev: chroot
<vladkorotnev> it is shit and doesn't use makefiles
<vladkorotnev> viric: won't chroot affect the possibility to run gcc and such?
<viric> well, you will need gcc in that /
<vladkorotnev> viric: will symlinks work as well?
<viric> no
<vladkorotnev> viric: how do I have to compile it if I don't have that much space on my / ?
<kristianpaul> cross compile ? :_)
<viric> Who wants to put things on /? The compiler?
<viric> if you have the source, you can make it do whatever you want
<vladkorotnev> viric: the part of the shell script that is installing the binaries
<viric> vladkorotnev: change that
<vladkorotnev> kristianpaul: to cross compile I need to build the image, which takes 10hrs
<kristianpaul> you can build the minimal image, not more than 3 hrs i think
<vladkorotnev> kristianpaul: but it doesn't use makefile D:
<viric> you will cross-build instead of changing the install script?
<vladkorotnev> viric: I think I'll have to
<vladkorotnev> kristianpaul: also I'm on a mac so I don't have the stuff to cross-compile
<viric> vladkorotnev: well, I can't fight against religion :)
<kristianpaul> :D
<kristianpaul> you can try a virtual machine, i bet there are several methods
<viric> I'd rent a remote linux system
<vladkorotnev> kristianpaul: I would, but 3 gigs free on my HD make me cry :(
<vladkorotnev> btw, is there nurses library for the NN?
<kristianpaul> well.. you need to do  sacrifices from time to time
<vladkorotnev> well, it compiles...
<wpwrak> qi-bot should announce such things with "*** FRESH MEAT !!! ***" ;-)
<wpwrak> viric: (rent) i'd get a netbook and end the suffering right there and then ;-)
<wpwrak> to paraphrase balmer, if you can buy a mac, you can afford a netbook :-)
<vladkorotnev> Is it safe to rm -rf /tmp/* ?
<wpwrak> usually not
<wpwrak> some programs may keep files there they intend to open again. so you should only do this when the system is completely quiescent
<vladkorotnev> nevermind
<vladkorotnev> I cleared some files from a failed build
<wpwrak> also, X has files named /tmp/.X*
<wpwrak> (and gets very unhappy if these should vanish)
<vladkorotnev> Now I need SDL/SDL.h and so on :P
<viric> wpwrak: I was joking. :)
<vladkorotnev> any SDL headers for the NN?
<wpwrak> vladkorotnev: at least the Jlime SDK lets you install -dev packages into the SDK, with opkg-target. this may also work with openwrt
<vladkorotnev> wpwrak: I compile directly on the NN :P
<wpwrak> oh :) well, then just install the -dev package ;-)
<vladkorotnev> wpwrak: got it, it wasn't in the 24-05-2011 pkg list :P
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/setup.hmac: explicitly mention SDL_gfx as a prerequisite http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/2bb2e7b
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/: moved more configurable items to variables http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/0372d7d
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/setup.hmac: completed test script customization section http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/c78423b
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/atrf-path: added interactive dumping with D http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b82472b
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atrf-path: added visual history of dumps http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/0eec747
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/Makefile: target "spectrum" to generate reference spectrum; target spotless http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/680086b
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/: completed description of signal strength measurement http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/33f84b4
<viric> dear electronic hackers
<viric> I've a solar charger here...
<viric> from Solio.
<viric> for mobile phones and so.
<viric> It has four output pins.
<viric> Vcc and GND for the mobile phone to charge, and between the other two, a resistor.
<viric> different for every kind of mobile phone connector
<viric> What do you suspect from that?
<viric> It did not look as the resistor determining a tension supply
<viric> maybe it's for a current supply
<wpwrak> or maybe it adjusts the output voltage ?
<viric> with a votlmeter, it does not look like so
<wpwrak> no ... the resistor could be for setting a regulator in the supply
<viric> that may not work at zero current?
<viric> I see a PIC on the board...
<viric> and I'm looking at other components
<viric> what a bad sight, this mine!
<viric> VA7205CH (a 8 pin chip)
<viric> E2FE (a 3 pin chip, one of the three to a heatsink part of the circuit)
<viric> GS7H (a 3 pin chip)
<viric> GSY7H I mean
<viric> or 65Y7H  (with a _ over the 7)
<viric> va7205 is for charging a battery the device has.
<whitequark> viric: I have an idea of what it may be
<whitequark> miniUSB has an ID pin which should be connected to GND directly or via a resistor
<whitequark> and some phones, e.g. openmoko, measure the resistance and determine if it is the charger (in which case it will draw all the current) or just PC USB (then it'll get 100/500mA)
<whitequark> maybe here PIC measures the resistance too, detects charger type and sets some settings accordingly
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, just like the iPhone :)
<lunavorax_frizzl> Wait, the iPhone is closed stuff.
<lunavorax_frizzl> Hey, I'm wondering something.
<whitequark> huh?
<lunavorax_frizzl> Why does the some laptops HAVE to be filled ONLY with chips that has NO open drivers.
<lunavorax_frizzl> Like my MacBook Pro
<lunavorax_frizzl> Why does the chip is a Broadcomm one
<lunavorax_frizzl> And not an Intel one
<lunavorax_frizzl> Is it so had to fill in the case or what ?
<whitequark> a funny thing happened when I replaced Broadcom WiFi with Atheros chip
<whitequark> in my notebook
<lunavorax_frizzl> Ahteros is... ?
<whitequark> before the replace, it had worked ~3 hours from battery (even with wifi turned off with killswitch)
<lunavorax_frizzl> closed or open ?
<whitequark> and after, it is working more than five
<whitequark> atheros is a nice vendor of RF parts who opens drivers and even firmware
<whitequark> moreover, the new card finds much more networks than the old one
<whitequark> (it'd be very interesting if anyone familiar with RF stuff here would explain the behavior to me)
<lunavorax_frizzl> weird
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, I dreamed very often of starting my own computer company made exclusively of open hardware.
<whitequark> we all do
<lunavorax_frizzl> So far the loongson company is doing so, but their stuffs are "cheap".
<lunavorax_frizzl> And, AND to CARE about the battery life.
<lunavorax_frizzl> It looks like only Apple do care about the battery life of their laptops (sad fact)
<lunavorax_frizzl> The other consturtors are saying "Hey it's a 3/6/9 cell battery"
<whitequark> apple stuff definitely has great hardware
<lunavorax_frizzl> Without specifying
<lunavorax_frizzl> Or worse "Hey it last for 10hours" and bang you discover that you have to buy the oversized battery to achieve so.
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, I agree 500%
<whitequark> when they'll do their netbook, I'll buy it, whatever the cost will be
<whitequark> even through it is closed
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, that's my dream, Apple quality, but open.
<whitequark> that won't happen in near future. you should have all the experience Apple has
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, they already do netbooks, the MacBook Air 11' is one.
<whitequark> whoops
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, I know, but manufacturer should also stop to make shitty stuff.
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, like Compaq seriously stop to f**k around with their computers
<lunavorax_frizzl> seriously need to stop*
<lunavorax_frizzl> Ironically, HP is doing good things imho
<whitequark> lunavorax_frizzl: the 11" air is somewhat bigger than my current 10" netbook, and that's critical for me
<lunavorax_frizzl> (ironically cause HP owns Compaq)
<whitequark> let me find my caliper
<whitequark> (hp) i've had very, very bad experience with their tablets, especially tx1000
<lunavorax_frizzl> Oh ok whitequark but I don't know if Apple is going to go smaller.
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, I don't do tablets
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, I consider them other things
<lunavorax_frizzl> Asus is making good netbooks so far. But seriously, there's too many products. Why cant' they focus on 3max or 5 ?
<whitequark> lunavorax_frizzl: I won't agree on that, eee series is cheap crap
<lunavorax_frizzl> And we're back with the Apple comparaison with very few products (you can customise).
<lunavorax_frizzl> Yes well I suppose the using experience is relative.
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, when i compare my Dell Latitude 2110 with the Asus 1015PEM of my girlfriend, the Asus is definitely smaller, lighter and maybe even faster.
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, and it doesn't feature the annoying fan technology Dell is using
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, the mad fan that goes crazy when  it have a little too much calculus.
<whitequark> lunavorax_frizzl: the fan on my samsung is not heard at all when it's idle and is very, very quiet on 100% cpu load
<whitequark> and the bottom is moderately hot (not like some other notebooks when you touch it and get some skin damage)
<whitequark> I'd say that samsung N250 (IIRC) is like 80% good. anyway, that is impressive for its cost
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, isn't Samsung not very Linux freindly ? (or open in general ?)
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, oh yeah that's the model I wanted to buy fo a time. I should have bought it.
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, but I seriously can't handle 1024 x 600 it's definitely the worst resolution ever.
<whitequark> lunavorax_frizzl: well, I'm not a fanatic. their hardware works great, and does not die after half a year (my previous netbook, by Toshiba, did that. and it was very crappy anyway)
<whitequark> lunavorax_frizzl: they have a new model with 1366x768, but there's DDR3
<whitequark> DDR3 cuts the battery time by around 2x
<viric> whitequark: I thought that the pic is measuring the resistence
<lunavorax_frizzl> Oh ok
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, yeah Toshiba sucks
<viric> But I'm now thinking of the resistor being part of an analog circuit involved in the charging
<viric> I've to check the exact pinout
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, anyway, the Intel Atom chips are crap. I would give a try to the ULV ones if I could gets my hands on.
<viric> btw
<viric> does anyone know anything about supercapacitors?
<viric> it's something I've been waiting for a long time, and I don't know if I can start making use of them
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, so far I've been satisfied with the use of Atoms only with a netbook recycled as a web server.
<whitequark> lunavorax_frizzl: but atom netbooks may work more than 4 hours
<whitequark> and I never seen regular (Core, etc.) notebooks work more than 2 hours
<whitequark> that's another critical point for me
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, I think I still would prefer a processor that works well rather than a processor that last long
<whitequark> and I prefer the former -- that's why I bought a netbook
<whitequark> it's quite frustrating (I'm going mad trying to compile gcc on it), but the autonomous time is great, and that's good
<whitequark> and the intel graphics card, which they should not dare to call a graphics card at all...
<whitequark> (they should rather call it "3D decelerator")
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, indeed BUT it's good to have cards that have real open drivers
<whitequark> lunavorax_frizzl: yes. and these open drivers sometimes mess up all the console (that happens frequently), and sometimes crash X
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, bah ;)
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, and yeah I know about X crashing
<whitequark> at some moments, I lose belief in open-source...
<whitequark> (now someone should ban me on this channel, right? :)
<lunavorax_frizzl> whitequark, I know that, but it's better to have a crashing X server rather than using Windows or Apple
<lunavorax_frizzl> remember the time when he was an Apple fanboy... oh god
<lunavorax_frizzl> Oh well, at least they have an open kernel :P
<whitequark> yeah. and no one can ever compile that into something executable
<whitequark> just attached a CPU fan using a duct tape and feels something wrong
<DocScrutinizer> whitequark: don't mess with this, I had to ban somebody today according to his own explicit decision
<DocScrutinizer> (not this cahn though)
<DocScrutinizer> a rather sad case...
<whitequark> DocScrutinizer: oh. why has that happened?
<DocScrutinizer> he said he feels like he can't stop trolling and I shall ban him to make it easier to stay away from that channel
<whitequark> weird
<DocScrutinizer> I think he got a lethal brain injury of some kind, stroke or cancer or dunno what
<DocScrutinizer> been a member of #maemo since years
<DocScrutinizer> ;-/
<lunavorax_frizzl> What ?
<lunavorax_frizzl> Trolling is ok if you have constructive arguments and submit ideas to criticism.
<lunavorax_frizzl> Wait, that's not the definition of trolling, right ?
<lunavorax_frizzl> Anyway, for my part I believe that open-source is never gonna make it in the user world
<lunavorax_frizzl> And by open-source I mean 100% open-source
<lunavorax_frizzl> Not like "oops, I did it again, you must install the proprietary driver"
<lunavorax_frizzl> 'cause some way, idk, things have to be "cool" for the lambda people
<lunavorax_frizzl> Have an iBigbrother is so hype, see ?
<lunavorax_frizzl> But having a phone that repsect your freedoms.
<lunavorax_frizzl> Nah, that a completely different idea.
<lunavorax_frizzl> And understanding that it's not a phone anymore but just a regular computer with a battery.
<lunavorax_frizzl> Ach, another story again.
<lunavorax_frizzl> Somehow.
<lunavorax_frizzl> With facebook + twitter + "smart"phones
<lunavorax_frizzl> It feels like 1984 made it.
<lunavorax_frizzl> In some way, the soft way, 'cause it's fun and no one cares.
<whitequark> can anyone here explain me how SDRAM works? looks like I confused a lot of people with stupid ideas :/
<whitequark> the problem is:
<whitequark> in my device, there is just one CS. Then, I have 15 address lines A0-A14 on CPU, of which A0-A12 go to A0-A12 lines of SDRAM chip, and A13-A14 are wired to BA0-BA1
<whitequark> the chip is a 32MByte 16-bit SDRAM
<whitequark> is there a way to add another 32 MBytes of memory by either replacing it with a 64 MByte one (are 14 address lines enough?), or adding a second 32M chip on top (I thought that absence of second CS makes this impossible)
<grunthus> Hi! I've just started opening my Ben
<grunthus> Hinge area near speaker resisting.
<grunthus> Got it. Just needed some patience and gentle coaxing.
<grunthus> The black connector for the LCD was 1mm loose on left side.
<grunthus> Slid back in to place easily.
<grunthus> Power button cycles fine (watch lsusb), but still no LCD :(
<grunthus> Touching LCD connector with pencil eraser - LCD activates!!
<wpwrak> grunthus: black connector ... hmm, what's that ?
<grunthus> There is a black plastic strip between the connector on the PCB and the end of the contacts in the LCD cable
<wpwrak> grunthus: do you mean the brown bar on the beige connector ?
<grunthus> yes, looks black to me, but yep.
<wpwrak> okay, black-ish enough :)
<grunthus> LCD is on now, but if I place the keyboard surround back, it either cuts out or becomes horribly interlaced in appearance.
<wpwrak> so it was loose. that's good bad news. did you reseat the cable as well ? or just lock the connector ?
<grunthus> Now has progressed to white display with vertical gray blocks
<wpwrak> yeah, that's still bad contacts
<grunthus> I didn't remove and reseat, just eased the bar back down
<grunthus> I'll power off, remove and reseat.
<wpwrak> the procedure would be as follows: power down completely. gently pull the bar away from the connector. (moves by about 1 mm; make sure the movement is parallel)
<wpwrak> to reseat, gently push the cable with a fingernail. don't push down hard on it or force it. it should slide in effortlessly.
<wpwrak> if it's pulled out, it can get caught on the bottom edge of the connector and then won't move in. may need a little prodding.
<grunthus> The brown bar is now pulled back by 1mm
<wpwrak> once it's in completely, push the black bar back such that it's flush with the beige connector
<grunthus> A question: having pushed black bar out 1mm, does that constitute removal of cable?
<wpwrak> not, it just releases the cable. the cable doesn't move in the XY plane of you change the lock.
<wpwrak> it may move a tiny bit in the Z direction, as the force pushing on it is removed/added
<wpwrak> well, pushing on the contacts
<wpwrak> what happens is that the black bar changes the pressure on the contacts vertically pushing on the cable. without pressure, the cable can slide in and out freely.
<grunthus> Ok, I am getting that sort of behaviour. Do I need to remove the cable? Presumably not?
<wpwrak> with pressure, it should stay in place.
<wpwrak> you shouldn't need to remove it. just make sure it goes in completely. it's probably only half-inserted or maybe even angled.
<wpwrak> if you remove it, it's a little harder to insert than it is to push in an already partially inserted cable.
<wpwrak> hmm, i wonder if we have a picture somewhere of what would be "right"
<grunthus> It is already parallel. I photographed it.
<wpwrak> here's a good indicator: the white end of the "branch" that goes outside the connector should hit the capacitor. (or be extremely close)
<grunthus> Ah, bit blurry.
<wpwrak> yeah. in any case, the white tab should hit the capacitor. then you're good and can lock the connector.
<grunthus> Locked, powering up.
<wpwrak> better ?
<grunthus> I'm sorry to say not. Power is on (lsusb) but no LCD
<wpwrak> :-(
<wpwrak> hmm. maybe try this: power down, then unlock the connector again. then gently lift the tab hitting the capacitor. then see if you can push the cable into the connector some more.
<wpwrak> (again, almost no force should be needed)
<grunthus> OK
<wpwrak> (lift = lift so that it can go above the capacitor, if the cable wants to go deeper)
<grunthus> yeah
<wpwrak> if that still doesn't help, then the next step would be to power down, unlock, pull out the cable completely, if you have "compressed air" (isn't not really air, but that's what these cans are called) give the inside of the connector a blow, then put in the cable again, lock, and see if the stubborn thing finally cooperates.
<grunthus> i'll try removal
<grunthus> OK, eased connector out.
<wpwrak> you got some "compressed air" around ? (the canned stuff used for blowing dust out of computers and such)
<grunthus> sadly, not here
<wpwrak> well, then let's hope for the plain magic or removal and insertion to be enough
<kristianpaul> it should
<grunthus> Sadly again, no joy!
<kristianpaul> hum :(
<grunthus> Given the extreme sensitivity the cable had to any pressure, I think it's a break in cable
<grunthus> Now, the LCD doesn't power on with a touch to the cable.
<kristianpaul> :-|
<wpwrak> yeah, sounds a like a return case :-(
<kristianpaul> i have a ben board lus lcm at home and the most suffering part is that cable, why this things happens..
<grunthus> I think I'll ask for return now. Thank you everyone.
<kristianpaul> i hope all go okay for you and back for the ubb-vga hacking :-)
<kristianpaul> wich remenber me i should had solder something..
<wpwrak> wolfgang mentioned that the connector can sometimes also be badly soldered, while the cable itself rarely breaks. (which is different from the experience we had at openmoko, where a somewhat similar cable had no end of troubles with hairline fractures)
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: (solder) yes ! :-)
<grunthus> wpwrak: It felt like a hairline break in cable. It was sooo sensitive to touch.
<wpwrak> hairline cracks are the nightmare of all QA. there's just no way to spot them :-(
<kristianpaul> [not related to qi] but that fractured cable is so often for freerunner? i have a friend asking me to check his neo* because the screen just went off..
<kristianpaul> even with X ray? :-D
<grunthus> All snapped back together nicely.
<wpwrak> grunthus: you said the connector also wasn't properly locked when you opened the device ?
<grunthus> That is correct, the left side of black lock bar was approximately 0.5-1.0 mm out from white connector.
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: the cable we had tons of trouble with was the debug board cable. i don't know of issues with the lcd cable. i never experienced any myself.
<kristianpaul> phew,
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: (x-ray) hmm ... :)
<grunthus> The cable itself was parallel to the connector, and the white tab butted against the cap.
<grunthus> (capacitor)
<kristianpaul> from that pic btw the "black thing" that hold the cable looks loose
<wpwrak> grunthus: interesting correlation. i wonder if it points to a common cause. e.g., operator accidentally pulling the cable or such, making the connector partially unlock and cracking a trace in the process.
<kristianpaul> are you sure you secured it?
<grunthus> kristianpaul: definitely, 3 times (moved flush, then released and relocked, then released, removed cable, reseated and relocked, all parallel.
<kristianpaul> any case, be carefull i broke that thing when hacking my ben.. so the damn tape loose once at month..
<kristianpaul> okay
<grunthus> Mine is new <1 week, problems from start.
<kristianpaul> well, time to call tuxbrain red phone ;)
<kristianpaul> yeah factory issue, part of that 1~..
<grunthus> Yep, support has been good, here and via email tuxbrain
<grunthus> Thank you wpwrak in particular for your time on this.
<wpwrak> grunthus: no problem. sorry that it didn't work in the end :(
<grunthus> I enjoyed taking it apart, interesting. I'm working with Arduino stuff too, so interesting to see about LCD connectors