<wpwrak>
btw, does anyone here know where the MLT (mltframework) folks hang out ? seems to be a great tool, but documentation-wise, shrouded in mystery
<unclouded>
My cheesy "cp feeds/qipackages/alsa-lib/patches/002-versionsort.patch feeds/packages/libs/alsa-lib/patches/" fixed it but I'll try the uninstall and install like you say
<unclouded>
./scripts/feeds install alsa-lib -p qi-packages didn't work for me ( I think it thought "-p" was a package) but alsa-lib builds for me anyway now.  many thanks for the help
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: did you read the yahoo patent thing I posted?
<wolfspraul>
so much fun to read. you will appreciate the subtleties, I'm sure...
<wpwrak>
ah well. yet another case. it's nice that someone is willing in that particular cesspit, but besides that, for me, the - in this area pretty much globalized - legal system has lost all credibility when it comes to patents with the RIM vs. NTP case.
<wpwrak>
s/willing/winning/
<wolfspraul>
I thought you would appreciate the sportive part of it.
<wolfspraul>
like the lawyers sitting in round A, learning for round B
<wolfspraul>
some caving in (Amazon), some betting it all
<wpwrak>
only yahoo betting it all, it seems
<wolfspraul>
I like the learning aspect, the more you get the other side the talk the more angles for attack you have.
<wpwrak>
and yes, the tactics are good
<wolfspraul>
and then the complete unpredictability of a laymen jury
<wolfspraul>
lots of drama, acting
<wpwrak>
only, you can't count on such luck. so the system is still flawed
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, of course
<wolfspraul>
I didn't like it because Yahoo won, but because of the tactics in play.
<wolfspraul>
it's just another form of casino
<wolfspraul>
"google saved half a billion usd'
<wolfspraul>
yo sure. :-)
<wpwrak>
yes, the jury system sort of has the charm of cavemen trying to repair a cray-1 ...
<wolfspraul>
it's mostly about who has better actors, better scripting, a bit of luck too
<wolfspraul>
I wouldn't be surprised if all those lawyers are high-fiving each other at the end of a long day, getting a drink...
<wolfspraul>
after all they are all in the same industry (ahem)
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wpwrak>
someone should slip them a bit of poison into their drinks. kill the birds on both sides with one stone ;)
<wpwrak>
well, i don't know if they really think like that. i know some lawyers who seem to be pretty decent persons.
<wolfspraul>
the part with 'learning in round A' is very interesting, even for us
<wolfspraul>
it shows the extreme importance for the troll to start with the biggest players first!
<wolfspraul>
they have a lot to loose
<wolfspraul>
and it gives us a HUUUUGE protection actually, in real life, not theoretically
<wolfspraul>
they would be crazy to pull out any small fish first, and make all sorts of legally binding statements that later victims can use against the troll
<wpwrak>
it also works the other way: if they start with the weak target, the weak target can remind the next in line that that should put up as strong a defense as they can.
<wolfspraul>
we could in fact try to find a larger one to help us
<wolfspraul>
because via our defense lawyer, the larger guy can already extract potentially damaging statements from the other side
<wpwrak>
better for google to pay you 10 M for legal fees than them losing and having to pay several 100 M
<wpwrak>
yes, exactly
<wolfspraul>
and as the article said, there was a whole bunch of lawyers siting in round A diligently, taking notes :-)
<wolfspraul>
no but this whole thing illustrates how important it is for them to start at the top
<wolfspraul>
and 20 years is not that long
<wolfspraul>
it typically takes about 10 years until even the case against the top is starting to roll
<wolfspraul>
then we just have to be under the radar for another 10 years, which passes fast in legal time
<wolfspraul>
so the 'patent troll' risk is really very very small for us
<wpwrak>
(start at the top) i don't know how the appeals process works in the us. a big player would have the resources to go through many costly iterations, while a small player may fold more quickly.
<wolfspraul>
only leaving cases such as sivel where we are almost in the net by accident
<wpwrak>
so their bet is whether you're a) small enough to fold, and b) can't get anyone to support you
<wolfspraul>
the small player may get indirect help from a larger one
<wolfspraul>
no they need to start at the top
<wolfspraul>
absolutely
<wpwrak>
i guess in the case of sisvel, the excellent pr openmoko had kinda backfired :)
<wolfspraul>
that's a must in their business model (the patent troll)
<wolfspraul>
no from all I heard it's just a side-effect, because they have this 'mp3' dragnet at customs
<wolfspraul>
and there was something about mp3 on the headset label or so
<wolfspraul>
I am 100% sure, if sisvel could, they would rather never have found om
<wolfspraul>
it's like when you are fishing you get all these fish that are not profitable -> you have to throw them out into the water again
<wolfspraul>
being small is a very effective protection against patent trolls
<wolfspraul>
the only way they can make money is from the large guys
<wpwrak>
(a must) i wouldn't count on it. it's good for us if they do, i but i think it's dangerous to rely on that. you also have to consider that the us system has the concept of precedence - future cases have to consider previous ruling (unless overruled at a higher instance). so it still makes sense to go for a weak target first.
<wolfspraul>
that's where the speed of the system and the potential payouts match to make a living for lawyers who could easily make 200k usd/year or more elsewhere
<wolfspraul>
nah they are cold blooded. they want to make money, not fix every 'injustice' in the world
<wpwrak>
(mp3 dragnet) funny. i wonder how this works. can you make customs officials to scan for your keywords and alert you ? kinda like google ads but for free ?
<wolfspraul>
if I would be attacked from a troll, I would make a quick round email letter to large corps who may be potentially the next target
<wolfspraul>
but I doubt this will ever happen because the troll made a big mistake in going after the small fish first
<wolfspraul>
yes, definitely
<wolfspraul>
customs has databases etc.
<wolfspraul>
how else could it work?
<wolfspraul>
so they have databases of brands and official importers
<wpwrak>
nice service :)
<wolfspraul>
and for patents I would think they get lists from sisvel too as to which brands are OK
<wolfspraul>
german customs office has 34,000 employees
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
but it's not enough to keep every 'customs gate' at Frankfurt airport staffed
<wolfspraul>
but no worries, actual professional smugglers would never use modern communication networks to find such tiny holes as the gate at Germany's largest airport only having a phone (!) to call a customs officer if you need one
<wolfspraul>
the absurdity of those structures is a topic in and of itself, I guess
<wpwrak>
oh, i'm sure profession smugglers are in good shape in that arms race. it's the amateurs who get caught.
<wolfspraul>
but as long as the monthly paychecks keep coming, we don't need to worry about those 34k people anymore...
<wolfspraul>
I saw those empty gates myself
<wolfspraul>
at smaller airports you already have working hours mo-fr 9-5pm or so
<wpwrak>
(empty gates) with people passing ? or just closed ?
<wolfspraul>
and if your airplane lands outside of those, say a chartered airplane from, let's say south america, then a nice poster reminds you to call a number if you need a customs agent
<wolfspraul>
nah
<wolfspraul>
with a phone!
<wolfspraul>
this is what they do officially Werner
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
you don't know how crazy reality is already
<wolfspraul>
they are 'appealing to the honesty of travelers' with this innovation
<wpwrak>
international travel isn't entirely unknown to me ;-)
<wpwrak>
at most places, they have random controls
<wpwrak>
at some places, they control everyone
<wolfspraul>
in Germany they have a phone and a nice poster explaining to you what you should do
<wpwrak>
haven't been to any airport where they wouldn't at least have the possibility of checking international passengers
<wolfspraul>
not everywhere, but at some gates in Frankfurt - very funny I think
<wpwrak>
(although this is quite often some sort of racial profiling)
<wolfspraul>
"Die Bundeszollverwaltung reagiert aufgrund anhaltenden Personalmangels mit der Einrichtung von Telefonen an den unbesetzten Kontrollstellen. Reisende können nun telefonisch einen Zollbeamten bestellen, der nach einiger Wartezeit an der Kontrollstelle erscheint und eine Kontrolle bzw. Abfertigung durchführt. Diese Vorgehensweise sorgte im Juli 2010 für heftige Kritik. Der Zoll erklärte dazu in einer Stellungnahme, man appelliere mit diesem Konz
<wolfspraul>
hilarious
<wpwrak>
heh ;-)
<wpwrak>
sounds like "dienst nach vorschrift" :)
<wpwrak>
but maybe that's for some eu-internal traffic
<wolfspraul>
nah
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
well, no, it's outbound traffic. it's before the security check
<wolfspraul>
keep dreaming :-)
<wolfspraul>
I'm not against that anyway
<wolfspraul>
hey I live in China :-)
<wolfspraul>
the whole culture here is like that
<wolfspraul>
there's a front door with a lot of bells and whistles
<wpwrak>
sure. that's for people who are leaving and are carrying something they don't want to have troubles bringing back home.
<wolfspraul>
and there's a back door
<wolfspraul>
the ones inbound are equally unstaffed, some of them ("personalmangel")
<wolfspraul>
and I guess now this has already spread from smaller airports to Frankfurt
<wolfspraul>
niec
<wolfspraul>
at smaller airports they have these absurd posters already for many years
<wolfspraul>
so if you have a whole chartered airplane full of drugs, you just need to make sure you land on a saturday or sunday...
<wolfspraul>
and you have to make sure nobody tips you off, that part is still working
<wpwrak>
at most places, customs mainly seem to play a role in catching enough of the really bad stuff. they do, from time to time. maybe enough to keep the threat credible.
<wolfspraul>
my favorite in frankfurt was that there was a wide line of carousels for arriving luggage. and at the front over a distance of maybe 100m there were 2 customs exits.
<wpwrak>
i get to meet the bad cases when something trips up at customs here. like people bringing a suitcase full of luxury watches and such.
<wolfspraul>
on one side it was staffed, on the other side (50m to the left) it was unstaffed (just walk through)
<wolfspraul>
I found out by accident because I had to walk over to the lost luggage office, and then I just left via the unstaffed one
<wolfspraul>
but most people on that plane from china were dutifully searched just 50m to the side
<wolfspraul>
insanity...
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
naw, customs rarely search
<wolfspraul>
no no. Germany is learning some China culture.
<wolfspraul>
so on the official line, the 'bad things from China' travelers, they are being searched very thoroughly
<wolfspraul>
but taht doesn't mean that some german culture would be there still ("personalmangel"), meaning that you need to walk a bit to the side for the unstaffed gate, if you want to
<wpwrak>
still, you have to calculate risk of detection times cost of detection minus value of smuggling. as long as this is positive, or at least you think it is, customs win.
<wolfspraul>
that's where Germany and China meet...
<wpwrak>
funny that they'd look for bad stuff from china, with all the severe drug laws and such. that's usually the main concern.
<wpwrak>
well, a fierce bark to control the sheep
<wolfspraul>
they look for pirated movies
<wolfspraul>
pirated pharmaceuticals
<wolfspraul>
you can make a lot of money importing antibiotics from China to Germany
<wolfspraul>
for example
<wolfspraul>
and there seems to be a growing market to sell them for cash in Germany too
<wolfspraul>
I've seen a whole suitcase full of pharmaceuticals - they were arguing whether it's for personal use or not :-)
<wolfspraul>
and since you can buy movies on the street for 50 cents here, some people bring their whole collection with them, that's a field day for customs
<wpwrak>
(suitcase full of pills) nice ;)
<wpwrak>
so it's all about drugs and IPR. maybe we the legal system should just take the hint and make both illegal ;-)
<wpwrak>
s/we //
<unclouded>
is it possible to reflash just u-boot and the kernel?  I did so thinking it would use the old root fs but when I boot the NanoNote it says "e to mount root fs on unknown-block(0,0)" is this related to the fact I've not yet re-flashed mtd2 or is it a separate problem?
<kyak>
so you shouldn't have this problem actually.. make sure you are using the latest openwrt-packages git (master)
<kyak>
this patch can't go upstream openwrt because versionsort() is available in uClibc 0.9.32.. So we had to override alsa-lib package from our feed
<unclouded>
kyak: thanks for the suggestion.  the problem ended up being that alsa-lib from the "packages" feed was being preferred over the "qipackages" feed, so when I copied the 002 patch to the alsa-lib from OpenWRT then it worked for me
<kyak>
also make sure that openwrt-packages repo is the first line in feeds.conf
<kyak>
oh yes, what you said is also an option
<unclouded>
really?  I thought they did some magic upstream so that it now works with older or newer uClibc
<kyak>
in general, putting qipackages feed on top of feeds.conf is preferred :)
<kyak>
cause we have some other packages to override...
<xiangfu>
kyak: do you have the "MPlayer-r33341.tar.gz" in your local.
<kyak>
unclouded: hm.. i'm not aware of any upstream regarding alsa-lib :)
<unclouded>
kyak: I tried putting qipackages at the top and it picked up the OpenWRT one anyway.  weird
<kyak>
well, since the patch in the ticket https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/9047 is finally accepted, we can just remove alsa-lib from openwrt-package next time we catch up with upstream backfire
<xiangfu>
great.
<unclouded>
hey xiangfu, how is the netsurf port coming along?
<xiangfu>
unclouded: I think it's wolfgang found the
<xiangfu>
netsurf
<kyak>
i don't find netsurf usable, not without keymouse package
<xiangfu>
then we just port it to nanonote. it's can run 'script' , so it's maybe a nice client for web develop
<kyak>
its sdl interface has just few keybindings (only up/down arrows, i think).. everything else is mouse
<kyak>
i wonder if "links -g" supports javascript..
<kyak>
with "keymouse" it's much better.. at least you can look around and follow links
<unclouded>
kyak: does keymouse work in userspace or does it need a kernel patch?
<kyak>
unclouded: it works in userspace but needs some kernel options enabled (they are already enabled)
<kyak>
you can just "opkg update && opkg install keymouse && /etc/init.d/keymouse start" (it doesn't start automatically)
<dvdk>
just compiled 'master' branch with config.mininimal and updated my kernel.  Just wondering, why doesn't openwrt-xburst.git in the 'master' branch build a kernel module .ipk?  now i have the new kernel, but still old modules
<dvdk>
or is this now part of base-files?
<kyak>
kernel modules are packaged as kmod-*.ipk
<kyak>
if you are referring to sound modules, they are built-in kernel
<kyak>
they can't be kmod and monolythic and the same time :)
<dvdk>
it's still awaiting approval, so many information (links etc.) that i submitted are still missing
<dvdk>
as software releases submitted to freashmeat are also shortly visible on slashdot, I hope that's going to help us get a little more publicity :)
<kyak>
dvdk: if there are no ipks, then yo udon't have any kernel modules selected to build (which is obvious since you are buildin miniaml)
<dvdk>
kyak: you mean I'd have to select kernel modules manually?  hmm.  ok now i feel enlightned :)
<wpwrak>
she looks very innocent, bordering on naive
<qi-bot>
[commit] cshore: This patch provides an image suitable for the alix2*, alix3, and alix6 headless (non-VGA equipped) SBC's. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/33f2d48
<qi-bot>
[commit] cshore: Add missed files from previous commit: This patch provides an image suitable for the alix2*, alix3, and alix6 headless (non-VGA equipped) SBC's. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/0118ba5
<qi-bot>
[commit] cshore: [x86] Removed Alix.mk profile which was accidently left as an empty file applying the patch during r26879 and r26880. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/806e48f