<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: cutting wood ... well, for simple things, i just write a script that generates a set of coordinates in gnuplot format
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: then i pass that through my coordinate transform scripts to mill
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: that's some ten or so uses so far. before, i also generated RML-1 toolpaths directly, but that's not really convenient.
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: once, i used HeeksCAD with scripting (for the counterweight)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: for PCBs, I can now generate toolpaths for drilling and milling directly from kiCad's gerbers.
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: so the process is not just to decide how to fit the pieces on the raw board, to enter the respective transforms in my mkmk script, to check the coordinates with gnuplot (make plot), and then go to the mill
<wolfspraul>
kyak: he, I ran into the libiconv problem too now. linking libSDL.so, I get undefined reference to libiconv_open/close
<wolfspraul>
so I need to change the dependency of libSDL from iconv to iconv-full?
<wolfspraul>
actually the earlier error is libiconv.so.2 not found...
<wpwrak>
how long would adam scream if i sent him this as the means of flashing the microcontroller in atusb ? :)
<wpwrak>
(the setup picture doesn't include the finger pressing the pogo pins firmly onto the pads)
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: hey there! I ran into a bug compiling SDL_image
<wolfspraul>
it complains about libiconv_open/close
<xiangfu>
I meet that too.
<wolfspraul>
how do I make SDL_image use libiconv-full instead of libiconv?
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: nice picture! the Qi cloth is useful for something :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: oh, i love it. makes the perfect background :)
<wolfspraul>
I don't understand the -pogo pictuer
<wolfspraul>
picture
<wpwrak>
perhaps it's a bit too twisted ;-))
<wpwrak>
this is what i use to flash the microcontroller in atusb (the chip comes empty and can't talk over usb until some firmware is loaded)
<wpwrak>
the ben runs the flash software. to make the connection, i hold that thingy onto the pads. on the pogo pic, you see the spring-loaded pogo pins that make the contact
<wolfspraul>
I understood what it was meant for, but wasn't aware there are such contacts on atusb?
<wolfspraul>
the pitch looks pretty big
<wolfspraul>
so this is for atusb, how about at810?
<wpwrak>
the pitch is 100 mil. standard header.
<wpwrak>
heh, took me a while to connect this to 8:10 ;-)
<wpwrak>
that one has no microcontroller and thus needs no programming
<wolfspraul>
the picture in c2-use, is it using the c2-pogo?
<wpwrak>
yes
<wolfspraul>
oh. hard to see.
<wpwrak>
c2-pogo is the left side of the cable in c2-use
<wpwrak>
(upside down, to show the pins)
<wpwrak>
(hard to see) yes, it's all yellow-white on yellow-white
<wolfspraul>
ah yes
<wolfspraul>
finally
<wolfspraul>
after looking at the two pictures more closely, I get it
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul: if you using the last openwrt-xburst. it's already using the full libiconv.
<wolfspraul>
c2-use looked like the connection was flat
<wolfspraul>
soldered or so
<wolfspraul>
I didn't see those press-down pins, the angle is not so good for that
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul: I guess you already have that.
<wolfspraul>
how about htop and fetchmail, should I disable them to save trouble?
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: I checked out just yesterday, and run into the sdl_image/iconv bug
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul: this commit from kyak, make our using the openwrt-package's libiconv. : 46b04421f92cfd3bae5964858771a3086ad1c8e1
<wolfspraul>
that didn't help me, I definitely have that
<wolfspraul>
my problem is in the configuration (!) of SDL_image
<wolfspraul>
both libiconv.so.2 and libiconv-full/lib/libiconv.so.2 exist (in staging_dir/...)
<wolfspraul>
but I think the configuration step in SDL_image will not find the one in the libiconv-full subdirectory
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: sure it's perfect. Adam still has 1 or 2 8:10 breakout cables
<wolfspraul>
maybe he can just reuse those for now
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul: after that commit OpenWrt will using the openwrt-packages's libiconv,(not upstream stab version)Â Â which is same with libiconv-full
<wolfspraul>
[usb] don't know, for now I assume yes it is safe
<wolfspraul>
usb seems to be focused around their logos
<wolfspraul>
there is no yearly fee, only a one-time payment for the vendor id, which we can use for all Qi projects
<wpwrak>
(logo) excellent
<wolfspraul>
but they do seem to work on some 'added value' logos, so you can only put this or that logo on your box if you meet this or that requirement.
<wpwrak>
yes, certification, i think
<wpwrak>
(for any logo)
<wpwrak>
and then there's that gazillion of usb variants, 2.0, 3.0, wireless, ...
<wolfspraul>
in contrast the SD people have this concept of a 'host license' that anybody who manufactures an SD host device has to pay
<wolfspraul>
which is not even cheap, I think 1000 or 2000 usd / yr
<wolfspraul>
yr / manufacturer
<wolfspraul>
per year per manufacturer
<wpwrak>
well, anything less and the paperwork overhead would be more expensive :)
<wolfspraul>
true
<wolfspraul>
the USB people are probably also smaller (guessing)
<wolfspraul>
maybe only a few office admin/secretary types
<wolfspraul>
they make 2000 USD for every vendor id
<wolfspraul>
maybe a little more for certification programs? don't know
<wolfspraul>
I think SD is bigger.
<wolfspraul>
(the organization I mean)
<wolfspraul>
not the usefulness :-)
<wpwrak>
the fee could be symbolic, without relation to the real cost of operation
<wpwrak>
well, 2k/vendor ought to feed the registrar :)
<wpwrak>
ah, the next ben-wpan push will derail schhist (atusd -> atben renaming. directory and files inside). it should be able to figure out where things are/were when you give it the new names, though
<bartbes>
wtf
<wpwrak>
welcome thy friends ?
<bartbes>
"Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(0,0)"
<wpwrak>
ubifs corruption ?
<bartbes>
so what now?
<bartbes>
reflash?
<bartbes>
can running jlime from sd have caused this?
<bartbes>
because I remember they had incompatible partition tables
<viric>
bartbes: the *previous* messages should be more informative than that last
<bartbes>
but the OpenWrt splash is hiding those
<kristianpaul>
( can running jlime from sd have caused this? ) i doubt it
<wpwrak>
i think i did get ubifs corruption after running jlime from usd. not sure about cause and effect, though. the partition layout shouldn't have been a problem in this case
<bartbes>
even if it tried to mount an ubifs volume at the wrong place?
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: you have a pic of atusb without pogo?
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: (bifs corruption after running jlime from usd) wow really? i never had such us proble here
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul: it's try to using host strip which is wrong.
<kristianpaul>
ah, a *hack*, that answer my question :-)
<wpwrak>
well, the pogos are admittedly no less of a hack ;-) what's nicer about them is that you don't have to cut off the connector when you're done
<wpwrak>
(cutting the connector usually damages the pads, so you better make sure you don't need them again)
<kristianpaul>
yeah i tough data (damages the pads)
<kristianpaul>
s/data/that
<bartbes>
so ehm
<bartbes>
how will I restore my ben?
<bartbes>
reflash?
<kristianpaul>
yeap
<kristianpaul>
well you can try usbboot for just uimage
<wpwrak>
no, for the ubifs uimage. the kernel is okay
<wpwrak>
(well, should be.)
<wpwrak>
ah ... if the u-boot/kernel combo changed, maybe that changed the partition layout too
<wpwrak>
in this case, reverting to the u-boot/kernel (not sure which one of the two defines the layout) of openwrt may restore the ubifs
<bartbes>
I never changed those
<wpwrak>
then it seems that you need to replace the ubifs
<kyak>
wolfspraul: it looks like yo uneed to build from scratch
<kyak>
i.e. make clean; rm -rf build_dir staging_dir feeds tmp; make package/symlinks
<kyak>
libSDL should build just fine
<kyak>
it may be using some lefovers from your previous builds..
<wolfspraul>
kyak: no I think we tracked it down already, added -liconv
<wolfspraul>
not libsdl, but SDL_image in qi's openwrt-packages
<kyak>
this is strange, because i didn't have such problem with SDL_image
<wolfspraul>
it was not a problem between iconv and iconf-full, it was just a missing -liconv for the linker
<kyak>
in any case, good that it worked.. -liconv won't do harm :)
<kyak>
xiangfu: btw, i mentioned that you link manually against -lncurses a lot. Since we have ncursesw in openwrt-packages, you could link against that
<kyak>
adding libncursesw to depenedcies, of course
<kyak>
i mentioned/i noticed
<xiangfu>
kyak: I totally forget that. sorry.
<kyak>
wolfspraul: actually, i had such problem with SDL, before i rebuilt from scratch :)
<xiangfu>
kyak: ok. I will try using the ncursesw, will try on some packages that I just committed  today  :)
<kyak>
xiangfu: no problem.. just occured to me
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul: I think I found the emacs compile error problem.
<kyak>
xiangfu: you could try entering wide-char characters to your ncursesw packages :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: does adam have access to a spectrum analyzer in general / for small-run testing ?
<wolfspraul>
don't know we have to find out
<wolfspraul>
what do you need it for? for design verification, or for production verification (each board)?
<wolfspraul>
what exactly are you looking for?
<wpwrak>
mainly for production verification. to see if a board has an abnormal spectrum (e.g., very noisy)
<wpwrak>
(or very weak)
<wpwrak>
with a spectrum analyzer, you see such problems immediately. without, it's a bit harder
<wpwrak>
(well, spectrum analyzer or equivalent. but i guess adam didn't get an usrp for christmas ;-)
<kristianpaul>
can you use an already tested board in order to measure spectrum from other one?
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: no, it doesn't have a high enough resolution. not in the frequency domain and also not quite on the signal strength.
<wpwrak>
well, maybe you can cheat with the crystal trim. lemme check ...
<kristianpaul>
so, no hope for a self test in the future?
<roh>
self tests never do more than 'fail / could be ok' seperation
<kristianpaul>
at least a self test between atusd atusd,
<kristianpaul>
measure some spected variables, rates, ..
<wpwrak>
trim range is about 150 ppm. that would be 0.37 MHz. i can step the constant wave +/- 0.5 MHz around the center frequency. and i can step the center frequency by increments of 5 MHz.
<wpwrak>
so, no, no way to cover the spectrum continuously
<kristianpaul>
:-(
<roh>
.s
<roh>
wpwrak: you dont have anything calibrated right?
<roh>
meaning 'more than usrp'
<wpwrak>
roh: nada
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: test atrf-atrf is my plan B
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: it's good to have anyway. but being able to see the spectrum would help to pinpoint problems. after a while, you'd know where the problems usually are and a simple pass/fail will be sufficient.
<wolfspraul>
maybe we should make the usrp our official test tool?
<wolfspraul>
what is the cheapest/easiest way to test, still with reasonable quality and speed?
<wpwrak>
usrp is certainly not the worst possible choice
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: yeah i agree (help to pinpoint initials problems)
<wolfspraul>
what minimum usrp equipment would we need?
<wpwrak>
plus a few bits and pieces you get at the electronic shop. (cables, antenna, gender changers, maybe an attenuator or two. probably less than USD 100 in total.)
<wolfspraul>
I'm still near Saarbruecken, yes, but leaving tomorrow morning, so too late to quickly go there now...
<wolfspraul>
which one of the aaronia.de devices would suffice for our needs?
<roh>
wpwrak: if the aaronia is better than what you have... the cccb has a device from them
<roh>
i can just borrow it
<wpwrak>
the 2025E V3 should be sufficient. the 4040 V3 is a bit nicer, though.
<wpwrak>
roh: aaronia should be better, yes. calibrated, for one thing :)
<wpwrak>
roh: they probably also have a wider range
<wpwrak>
oh, the usrp1 has a fairly narrow frequency range. usrp2 is much better, but also at twice the price
<wpwrak>
(narrow range) in terms of what you can see at a time without tuning
<wpwrak>
if you include tuning, then they're the same
<kyak>
xiangfu: you can have a look at gcc-mips/Makefile for some STRIP usage example
<kristianpaul>
Einsteiger
<kristianpaul>
..
<wpwrak>
roh: not sure how good the readout is on the aaronia.
<wpwrak>
what's bad about the aaronia things is that they come in this huge aluminium box. so shipping ought to be very expensive.
<kristianpaul>
you should use RF screening in your place
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: you mean to make sure nobody mistakes it for an apartment where people live ? ;-)
<kristianpaul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
(shipping of the alu box) to argentina, it would be EUR 280. (i once investigated the possibility of getting one of their devices, but eventually gave up. the peripheral costs (expensive shipping, special customs treatment, etc.) just add up to basically doubling the price)
<wpwrak>
(doubling) and then add taxes. so final cost in .ar = 3 x .de price
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: did you have to pay customs fees for the 3 nanos we sent recently?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i have USRP2 + XCVR2450. the XCVR2450 is a bit more expensive than the RFX2400 and also has the 5 GHz band in addition to 2.4 GHz. (the RFX2400 does 2.3-2.9 GHz) the XCVR2450 also has twice the transmit power of the RFX2400.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: what the XCVR2450 doesn't have (and which i didn't find out until later) is simultaneous TX and RX. that would have been useful for my antenna testing.
<wolfspraul>
why would the spectrum analyzer create 'special customs treatment' like you wrote? do you know specifics?
<wpwrak>
(3 nanos) yes, of course.
<wolfspraul>
how much did fedex charge you in total?
<wpwrak>
(customs treatment) there is a USD 1000 limit for the value of private imports that arrive via courier or regular mail. anything above it gets the "commercial" treatment.
<wpwrak>
there's one exception: EMS has a limit of USD 3000.
<wpwrak>
that's why i used EMS when i bought the USRP. went smoothly, no problem. (non-EMS couriers get better taxes, though. about 30% on total value while EMS and regular mail get 50% on the value of the goods.)
<wpwrak>
alas, there is no EMS in germany and aaronia aren't present in any other country.
<wpwrak>
thus, i would have to involve a commercial importer to handle these things for me (or take my chances at bribery)
<wpwrak>
the commerical importer would of course want a cut. and then the customs broker charges for their part, too.
<roh>
that suckx
<roh>
would it be easier to buy some used lab equipment from the us?
<wpwrak>
for the bens, fedex charged ARS 534. that's about USD 130.
<wpwrak>
via fedex, charges are in the 30-40% range.
<wpwrak>
roh: used equipment is very bad. apparently, you're not allowed to import that at all.
<roh>
wpwrak: ah.. paperwork... then its refurbished
<wpwrak>
roh: sure, if it looks new and the documentation doesn't say anything suspicious, then it ought to be fine
<lekernel>
wpwrak: customs in argentina look like a lot of fun...
<lekernel>
don't those people have anything better to do?
<wpwrak>
lekernel: oh yes, they do. and it gets particularly bad if the thingy you're getting connects to mains. unless it happens to have the not very common certification for argentina, you can't import it without getting it certified first. they also refuse to just remove the power supply from the shipment and let the rest pass, although i'm not sure whether this is just them being bastards or some restriction with a legal basis.
<wpwrak>
lekernel: oh, i think they're doing quite well. whenever they can create a problem, this usually means money for them. so they have every incentive for being attentive.
<wolfspraul>
ok, just asking because you have those nice license tags, but this one is not tagged...
<wolfspraul>
well great, this is a very nice clock!
<Ornotermes>
not yet :P
<Ornotermes>
all photos including RAW images is included for those interested, as CC SA
<kristianpaul>
6502 <-- And you are suposed to track visually all changes that happen between register?
<kristianpaul>
commodore times.. , i wish at least have had a Z80.. but no, anyway here i'm i got a nanonote :p
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: WYSIWYG at its best :)
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: ha - I just experience what you said the other day about the icons looking too good!
<wolfspraul>
built the latest image from source, just reflashed my nano.
<wolfspraul>
a lot of icons look really juicy now, but when you click on them you land in this text desert :-)
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: ;-)
<kristianpaul>
I think is opositive feeling compareted when you're testing the last bleeding edge Jlime version
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: you think the jlime icons are too austere ?
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: no
<kristianpaul>
i mean last jlime (fro oe upstream) have some nice looking icons and theme, something similir about what is hapening with gmenu2x right now, but of course, with diferent result after you launch the app :-)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: jlime muffinman is okay for me
<wpwrak>
aah. yes, the applications are nice.
<kristianpaul>
thats the point !
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: introduced 8_10-card.lib as politically correct alternative to usd-card.lib http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/b205efc
<Ornotermes>
lekernel: where did you find the B/W picture on page 3?
<kristianpaul>
oh are VJ too !
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: that explains it :)
<lekernel>
?
<lekernel>
explains what?
<wpwrak>
lekernel: is the kludgy software what you found or what you wrote ?
<kristianpaul>
"PC towers feel heavy when carried around at 5am"
<kristianpaul>
no latops in that time? :-)
<kristianpaul>
s/ltops/laptops
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: maybe that osborne thing :)
<lekernel>
Ornotermes: do you really want to know? ;)
<lekernel>
wpwrak: wtf?
<wpwrak>
lekernel: page 2, 2nd bullet. what does it mean ?
<kristianpaul>
ha, quoting OS X, apple will follow you close now
<kristianpaul>
:-)
<lekernel>
wpwrak: software that I wrote, yes
<kristianpaul>
nevre released isnt?
<lekernel>
or rather hacked together
<Ornotermes>
lekernel: is there any particular reason why i wouldn't? :P
<wpwrak>
lekernel: maybe you should clarify this in the slide. e.g., that you're not lambasting other people's work
<kristianpaul>
wwo slide 13, why my flicknoise dint look like that??
<kristianpaul>
"Boots and gets ready in seconds"
<kristianpaul>
yeap !
<kristianpaul>
"Extra features"
<kristianpaul>
Where is that part?
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: is your m1 booting again?
<kristianpaul>
I'll like watch it at leat :-)
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: since yday
<kristianpaul>
flashed from scratch :-)
<kristianpaul>
motion vectors <- kinetic ? ;-)
<lekernel>
kristianpaul: you should read a milkdrop doc, this will tell you about those
<lekernel>
i'll explain them briefly, but not on the slide
<kristianpaul>
ah ok...
<kristianpaul>
btw my bios still saying PCB revision 1
<kristianpaul>
lol slide 24 ;-)
<kristianpaul>
+1 what next of course :-D
<lekernel>
rc1 was revision 0
<wpwrak>
lekernel: slide 6, "Trend for ``open hardware''" also is a little ambiguous, because it states a process without defining a point of reference. e.g., it could be "this should happen", "this is beginning to happen", or "this is well under way"
<kristianpaul>
"X11 is a pain on embedded systems"
<kristianpaul>
try get a quote froma Jlime user :-)
<lekernel>
wpwrak: that's a complex question that wouldn't fit in a single line of a slide
<wpwrak>
lekernel: slide 7, looks a little odd. isn't this less a gap than more a hole. e.g., below a certain level, there simply isn't/wasn't anything non-proprietary
<lekernel>
diagrams like this are _always_ wrong, and I think it's still worthy to place things like Kicad, PCB designs and Qcad on it
<wpwrak>
lekernel: (slide 6) maybe something like "Recently, trend towards" or such ? or maybe "also" instead of "trend", because "trend" suggests a broad movement, which we probably don't have yet
<wpwrak>
lekernel: (always wrong) true ;-) perhaps a more "correct" layering would be sw on top, then traditional, then one block with hdl, semi impl, and semi manuf, horizontally divided. since they're a linear process, you could show this with angled ("arrowish") boxes, e.g., Digital design > semi impl > semi manuf
<lekernel>
depends. arduino folks claim they're doing "open hardware", and "arduino" has surpassed "microcontroller" in terms of google search volumes
<lekernel>
check on google trends if you don't believe me :)
<kristianpaul>
can you put that on slides?
<lekernel>
no, because I don't think Arduino is really open hardware
<wpwrak>
lekernel: googlefight.com disagrees :) 911k vs. 528k. but it's still impressive. okay, so trend is good :)
<lekernel>
googlefight returns the number of pages
<lekernel>
not how many times people search for stuff
<lekernel>
as I said, it's a complex question
<wpwrak>
so more are searching but they're finding less :) anyway, your point stands
<lekernel>
yup, it's exactly that :)
<wpwrak>
i think the key is "opening". even with a proprietary chip, if you open the schematics, layout, and such, you're making one step towards more openness. at least today. at some point in the future, this may not be enough anymore.
<lekernel>
oh, well
<wpwrak>
slide 9 is confusing. "what makes it SPECIFIC ?" ... "contains a GENERAL-PURPOSE". sounds like a contradiction :)
<lekernel>
Atmel and TI usually have rather open schematics and layouts for their reference designs, don't they...
<wpwrak>
lekernel: )open ref designs) yup, and it's a good thing. there are also those guys who don't do that. NDAs for every scrap of information.
<wpwrak>
lekernel: did you intentionally not capitalize the "it" on slide 12, 2nd bullet, 1st sub-item ? ("it will even disappear")
<lekernel>
hum, no
<wpwrak>
lekernel:also slide 12, "If you get it right" is nicely ambiguous. one could read it as "if you don't get it right (the design/chip/whatever), people have to mess with the complexity they shouldn't have to mess with" ;-)
<wpwrak>
lekernel: also on slide 12, in the last item "It is actually easy." seems redundant.
<wpwrak>
lekernel: slide 13, maybe mention which GPL version ? (if that's not messy)
<wpwrak>
lekernel: slide 16, might be useful to explain what "patch" means in this context (if that's straightforward, and you're not showing it in some other way at the same time)
<wpwrak>
lekernel: slides 15 through 18 could perhaps benefit from still image / stylized examples, also such that you don't need to explain visual concepts with words, which is tricky in the best of cases
<wpwrak>
lekernel: slide 20, s/not a FPGA/not an FPGA/
<wpwrak>
lekernel: since you mention CC-BY-SA on slide 23, how about putting it somewhere on slide 21 as well ?
<lekernel>
ah, I see you're picking up the old and rare "a FPGA" vs. "an FPGA" troll :)
<wpwrak>
nice title on slide 24 ;-)
<lekernel>
well it's fosdem embedded devroom. filled with nerds.
<wpwrak>
lekernel: well, it depends on how you pronounce it. eff-pee-gee-aye or fp'ga. the latter sounds like klingon :)
<wpwrak>
lekernel: if you say "eff-...", it's "an". klingons use "a"
<steve|m>
a friggin' field programmable gate array!11 ;)
<wpwrak>
slide 25. the first bullet seems to want an adjective that says what sort of barrier it is. or maybe you just mean "SDRAM controllers are hard to design" ?
<lekernel>
well, getting the SDRAM to work puts an end to many FPGA projects
<wpwrak>
steve|m: alright. then the speaker stops and has a glass of water ;-)
<wpwrak>
lekernel: suicide ? death by old age ? ;-)
<lekernel>
both industrial and hobby...
<wpwrak>
perhaps what also makes the SDRAM barrier sound wrongish is that it's not actually the SDRAM but the interface. (e.g., one could interpret the sentence that SDRAM is too expensive, hard to source, etc.)
<wolfspraul>
I just call it a peripheral now (the fpga), with currently bad free software support
<wolfspraul>
like a graphics card or modem in the 90's
<wolfspraul>
and the other problem with the sdram statement is that it sounds boastful
<wolfspraul>
never a good idea that you claim you can do something that others can't
<wolfspraul>
that's actually a very good way to get them try harder to proove you wrong...
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wpwrak>
maybe a neutral characterization of the main difficulty/class of difficulties could help to illustrate the issue. i think the rest of the slide is okay, not too boastful
<wpwrak>
slide 27, floating point pipeline_s_ ... maybe make "N [parallel] pipelines" a separate bullet ?
<wpwrak>
lots of bad vibes in slide 29. crappy, bugs, dirty, ... you could defang it with a quote of one of the authors himself would characterize it with such words
<wpwrak>
slide 27, btw, BusyBox is camel-cased
<wpwrak>
slide 31 also has "a FPGA"
<wpwrak>
slide 32 could benefit from clearer naming of the licenses (if reasonable), e.g., GPLv2+, CC-BY-SA, etc.
<wpwrak>
will you have some slides in case people ask about LLHDL ? may be useful to have one or two simple ones, e.g., with the workflow and maybe a code example
<wpwrak>
by the way, what equipment do VJs currently use ? may make sense to show the competition, particularly if the competition is visible inferior/messy
<wpwrak>
(your PC example is already ~5 years old and i would guess that VJing solutions have evolved rapidly in this time, considering that this is still something relatively new)
<wolfspraul>
I doubt that.
<wolfspraul>
They use Macs, a lot of them like video loops, and they like high-res, maybe even over multiple monitors/projectors.
<wolfspraul>
none of those things Milkymist One can do :-)
<wolfspraul>
the unique thing of m1 is the dmx and video-in, to a lesser degree midi
<wpwrak>
hmm. so if our MM1-toting VJ goes to a club, he won't be able to drive the equipment ? i hope that isn't so
<wolfspraul>
but from the perspective of the 'normal' vj, m1 is a very unusual thing, many would have a hard time overcoming for example the 640x480 resolution
<wolfspraul>
no he can, I'm just describing things in the most down-to-earth way, because you asked about comparisons
<wolfspraul>
they will ask "what resolution?"
<wpwrak>
yes, video manipulation is indeed something one doesn't see often
<wolfspraul>
and they want to hear 1900x1200 or whatever
<wolfspraul>
I'm not afraid to highlight those things, in reality in most clubs the resolution doesn't matter.
<wolfspraul>
90% won't care and still want the highest resolution, fine then.
<wpwrak>
yeah. at least not for long ;-)
<wolfspraul>
the video-in is unique
<wolfspraul>
and dmx integration
<wolfspraul>
but someone needs to be really on the creative side to see that as an opportunity
<wpwrak>
"unique" may be too strong
<wolfspraul>
most of them just get hired for 200 bucks, they go there, do their thing, go home
<wolfspraul>
not everybody is a picasso...
<wolfspraul>
if someone is really creative, and doesn't mind trying new things, or has the finance/standing/brand to pull that off, he will see m1 as something very interesting
<wolfspraul>
because you can program/patch stuff with video-in, dmx that you just can't do with a Mac
<wolfspraul>
if I understood someting wrong, I'm sure lekernel will correct me :-)
<wolfspraul>
this is my current understanding of things on the VJ side...
<wpwrak>
perhaps the emphasis isn't so good then. in the presentation, the statement is basically that MM1 is a better mac. same task, nicer tool.
<wolfspraul>
definitely not
<wolfspraul>
we can spare us comparisons with a high-end Mac here, at whatever tech parameter we look
<wpwrak>
that seems to be missing. maybe: 1) can do the same old jobs, but doesn't try to excel there. 2) can do cool new shit.
<wolfspraul>
the thing is that m1 is different, you can do very unique things with it
<wolfspraul>
totally new things
<wolfspraul>
video-in, dmx
<wolfspraul>
those are hard with a mac, then you need a lot of gear
<wpwrak>
i don't think it's totally new. but certainly not common.
<wolfspraul>
from a creative perspective, I think it is new
<wolfspraul>
in the end m1 is just a tool
<wolfspraul>
like a new type of brush
<wolfspraul>
an artist needs to see the potential of that new brush to allow him to express something interesting in new ways
<wolfspraul>
m1 can't do that, the artist needs to do that
<wolfspraul>
and that is definitely possible with it
<wolfspraul>
but not if you compare vga resolutions to your mac...
<wpwrak>
i saw some videos (don't remember who pointed to them, maybe sebastien himself) that show some video-in processing
<wpwrak>
one guy activating effects to the sound of "sandstorm" and some nicer dancer performing to "i'll kill you"
<wolfspraul>
the question to me is - from 100 VJs, how many are truly creative, how many just want to have an easy way through their jobs
<wolfspraul>
that I don't know yet
<wolfspraul>
and how can we reach the ones that are experimental/creative, and don't mind to try a new thing like m1
<wpwrak>
some may also just want a shrink-wrapped box with new effects. i think mm1 can do that too.
<wolfspraul>
yes, it can
<wolfspraul>
but like I said, the motivation to be creative/different needs to start with the VJ
<wolfspraul>
if he is comparing with his mac, forget it, waste of time
<wolfspraul>
"is this a better mac?"
<wolfspraul>
"can this replace my mac?"
<wpwrak>
hmm, maybe that's too restrictive
<wolfspraul>
etc. etc.
<wpwrak>
how about "can do interesting new things" and mention the kind of effects that are still uncommon but may become just another item in the toolbox with time as an example ?
<wolfspraul>
sebastien is planning to make a video at some point
<wolfspraul>
let's see
<wpwrak>
ah, and never say that the artist has to be creative. i don't think they like that ;-) tell them that it allows them to unleash their creativity :)
<wolfspraul>
comparisons with a high-end Mac are very hard for m1
<wolfspraul>
m1 could also do real-time compression and send it over ethernet to some other place
<wolfspraul>
I think it's fair to say, for most VJs, the software they have on their macs is very powerful/flexible.
<wpwrak>
for the video, you could start with the high-end mac, showing a rotating teapot in HDTV or such. with people sitting or laying on the dance floor. then fade to MM1 ;-)
<wolfspraul>
you don't want to go into a comparison with that stuff
<wolfspraul>
m1 is really cool, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying comparisons with mac or mac vj software are leading in the wrong direction.
<wpwrak>
but it's the obvious question
<wpwrak>
if MM1 is positioned as "a VJ station"
<wolfspraul>
yes, different from the mac and mac vj software
<wolfspraul>
totally different
<wolfspraul>
reboot your mind :-)
<wolfspraul>
at that point 90% may say "no thanks, my mac is just fine and I'm having fun"
<wolfspraul>
let's hope we find the other 10% effectively...
<wpwrak>
ah .... it's "Interactive VJ station". good. a bit more elaboration of that one, and it's good. making it clear that "interactive" is not purely descriptive but points out something special.
<wolfspraul>
some videos that show what you can do with m1 will be very helpful
<wpwrak>
absolutely. viral marketing rocks :)
<wolfspraul>
I saw a clip of a pet shop boys concert recently, they definitely have a lot of need for technology :-)
<wolfspraul>
m1 needs to find people that invest time in it, to create something truly different.
<wolfspraul>
maybe not the pet shop boys (are the retired again? don't know), but someone with energy and means to pull off something a little bigger than an upgrade to his VJ software.
<wolfspraul>
wow I just read the wikipedia entry about the pet shop boys, and it says they have a full-time programmer for their stage work
<wolfspraul>
that should suffice for m1 :-)
<wpwrak>
i think pre-made novel effects would also go a long way. give VJs something cool to show without having to work too hard. helps both the lazy and the otherwise busy.
<wolfspraul>
yes true. we need to make the first step(s).
<wolfspraul>
totally agree
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: 8_10-card.fpd: set pad type to "bare", so the we don't get solder paste on them http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/1a5a92e
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: pads.fpd: set pad type to "bare", so the we don't get solder paste on it http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/4dfabf5
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: meander.fpd: use new pad type "trace" without solder paste and mask opening http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/c6532c7