<wolfspraul> rjeffries: I apologize if I offended you. I am seriously personally interested in this clarify of language thing... maybe suffering from being misunderstood as a non-native speaker.
<wolfspraul> so I often pause when I use certain words, and wonder 'is this clear to someone else', etc. I actually enjoy that - cut down bloat :-)
<wolfspraul> s/clarify of language/clarity of language/
<rjeffries> wolf no problem. let's agree that you find "proof of conept" to lack meaning. cool, and in fact atben IS going to be maore. it will become a product and be sold. No argument. so that was my mistake
<wolfspraul> long way to get there :-) (don't tell me what you think it is right now :-))
<wolfspraul> it starts with p...
<rjeffries> My point was that IMO until 6LoWpan is integrated into a ??future?? device it will have limited appeal. that is all
<wolfspraul> agreed
<wolfspraul> actually I'm more worried about ipv6
<wolfspraul> ipv6 only. well I'm worried and excited at the same time.
<rjeffries> on a differnet topic I can understand your frustration with Ingenic, and desire to control your SC future
<wolfspraul> ipv6 is probably a headache worth going through.
<rjeffries> very ambitious, but eventually diable.
<wolfspraul> no frustration, they have a clear business model which they are open about and are not pulling any dirty tricks.
<wolfspraul> until today the 4740 is their main cash cow
<rjeffries> I watched the EXCELLNT 6LoWpan video and am convince that a small reaLITIVE LOW COST DEVICE WITH 6lOePAN CAN BE A REAL SELLER
<wolfspraul> I haven't even watched it yet.
<wolfspraul> which one was it?
<rjeffries> SORRY about caps lock
<rjeffries> it is damned good. they guy knows his stuff. there is far more going on than I dreamed
<rjeffries> s/SC future/SOC future
<rjeffries> and on MM without memory management, one User app can easily crash other apps or the system
<rjeffries> is memory management required? No. Do we want CPU w/omemory managment in 2012? prolly not
<wolfspraul> mmu is a very important missing feature, agreed
<wolfspraul> but let's have some faith in sebastien's prioritization
<wolfspraul> the first one is to make the product work as a product, that's why I teamed up with him and in the last year we executed brilliantly along those lines
<wolfspraul> there is soooo much work left to do there though...
<wolfspraul> if we continue well, the mmu is just a missing feature. does anyone have a patch? :-)
<DocScrutinizer> hmm, PoC is usually demonstrating working principle, though bells and whistles missing, like a decent GUI etc
<DocScrutinizer> moo btw
<DocScrutinizer> weird, IRC feels like full moon the last few hours, and yet it's not even Friday
<DocScrutinizer> well, the user I +q'd an hour ago said thanks to me in private query
<DocScrutinizer> #openmoko had a weird spammer
<DocScrutinizer> and here the mood seems quite agressive
<wolfspraul> in #qi-hardware ? ooops :-)
<DocScrutinizer> lol
<wolfspraul> maybe you are right and we should be more peaceful and understanding around here...
<DocScrutinizer> hmm, I think *you* are as peaceful and understanding as it gets
<DocScrutinizer> I have to agree with rjeffries though - I also have no f'ng clue why he spends time here :-P
<wolfspraul> I can't figure out which dc jack m1 is actually using :-)
<wolfspraul> and this is the link to the datasheet from the m1 bom http://www.scpre.com.tw/D1-D21/d8.htm
<wolfspraul> the bom says "DC POWER, 2.1mm"
<DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: *PIN* diameter 2.0
<DocScrutinizer> so it seems it's a standard 6mm barrel connector with a 2mm pin(-hole). There are connectors with same outer diameter but different pin
<DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: seems my universal PSU here comes with 4 6mm-outer barrel plugs, with 4 different inner hole diameters
<DocScrutinizer> then there's also a so called 2mm barrel connector, that has *outer* diameter of 2mm
<wolfspraul> what does that correspond to on the wikipedia page?
<wolfspraul> wikipedia talks about 5.5mm od and 2.1mm pin diameter
<wpwrak> GRRR. blackout from 22-5 h :-(
<DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: well, your 5.5mm are my 6mm
<DocScrutinizer> 2.1mm == 2.0mm
<DocScrutinizer> I.E probably the hole in plug is 2.1mm while the pin is 2.0mm
<qi-bot> [commit] Wolfgang Spraul: first product label draft http://qi-hw.com/p/m1/5cff85a
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: the qi servers suffered a similar fate - down for 8h!
<wolfspraul> looks like a kvm bug/crash, oh well
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: oh, fun :)
<DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: DIN 45323 power connectors:  6.00 mm OD, 1.98 mm ID [1]  (wikipedia)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (label) looks quite messy ?
<wpwrak> CE touching the "thankyoiu", TIP+ printed over RoHS. no spacial separation between 2A and TIP+, FCC also very close to the "thankyou", ...
<wpwrak> if there's not enough space, maybe just remove the "thankyou" line ?
<wpwrak> the "made on earth" also looks a bit silly. also, doesn't the place of manufacture have some significance for customs ? (as meaningless this may be in practical terms)
<DocScrutinizer> damn, those barrel connectors are a nightmare of a zoo
<tuxbrain_away> wolfspraul: yes is a legal matter , the device must especify his origing....
<tuxbrain> and yes I agree with wpwrak is a pure mess....
<tuxbrain> a pity we are now overhelmed by other matters , but if it not urgent, If you pass the requeriments, and space I can ask victor to take a look at, btw where is suposed to this label will appear?
<wpwrak> looks like the label that goes on the box. hence little need for the "thankyou" advertisement link. i like the +/- 5%, but i wonder if it is true ;-)
<DocScrutinizer> I wonder what's a "2A TIP"
<DocScrutinizer> (+/-5%) unusual for PSU
<DocScrutinizer> is this direct VCC?
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: either TIP+ is some certification/compliance, like CE, FCC, or RoHS (after all it appears right next to them), or it is an unusual way of repeating the information already present in the drawing below
<DocScrutinizer> or just input to some sorta voltage regulator / converter?
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: in any case, I wouldn't trust it ;-)
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: with that accuracy, it ought to go straight to TTL Vcc ;-)
<DocScrutinizer> yes
<DocScrutinizer> oh, that's TIP+. Missed the +
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: are you looking at the svg?
<wolfspraul> without the font it will be wrong, look at the png instead
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: looking at the svg, yes. let's see about PNG ...
<DocScrutinizer> Usual writing would be DC 5V 2A, plus the pictogram below. Or - if it's really +/-5% - you should replace that with a "warning!! use only specified PSU"
<DocScrutinizer> I don't see a png link
<wpwrak> yeah, no png. (substituted svg with png)
<wolfspraul> tuxbrain: where does it say that it 'must specify its origin' and what is the origin?
<DocScrutinizer> well, some countries seem to require that
<tuxbrain> country of origin, I think CE countries have permision tu use CE instead of the name of the country, let me check the exact rules but I'm pretty sure about it.
<wolfspraul> I'm listing origin as Earth until I find something better.
<DocScrutinizer> where's schematics of m1?
<tuxbrain> what something about made in china in partnership with all world
<wolfspraul> nothing made in China
<wolfspraul> well
<tuxbrain> or taiwan
<wolfspraul> if you ask Beijing then it's made in China
<tuxbrain> or whatever is manufactured
<wolfspraul> we know better than to randomly pick a country
<wolfspraul> ics from the us, south korea, japan
<wolfspraul> pcb from taiwan, maybe china in the future
<wolfspraul> case from germany
<wolfspraul> smt and assembly in taiwan
<wpwrak> i think it's something like the point of assembly. like that, you also have TVs "made in argentina"
<wolfspraul> logistics center hopefully hk soon
<wolfspraul> oh I'm sure, so what? I'd rather stick with the truth, and see how far I can go.
<wpwrak> why make things hard for customers ?
<wpwrak> it's them who have to wrestle with their customs
<wolfspraul> I doubt there will be a single problem, this is just a label.
<wolfspraul> 'country of origin' is mostly just a meaningless field in customs paperwork, you can fill anything in.
<DocScrutinizer> well, for all I can read from that confusing page 8, I suggest to change the writing to not include any +/-x% rating
<wpwrak> png looks better than svg, but still a bit disorderly. i'd drop the "TIP+". i understand what it means because i saw it being discussed here, but otherwise i would find it confusing.
<wolfspraul> and nothing woudl stop you, or us, or anyone, from still filling whatever fits in there.
<DocScrutinizer> and there's A FUSE MISSING!!
<wolfspraul> 'made on earth' or 'made by the people' is still accurate, if some customs bureaucrat wants to see a member of the UN listed in his form, we'll give him that name :-)
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: is there a fuse ? in the device, i mean ?
<DocScrutinizer> nope, it's missing
<wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: the power circuit is 'weak' by my standards, is that what you mean?
<DocScrutinizer> you can't labek such device CE
<DocScrutinizer> label*
<tuxbrain> It has pass CE?
<wolfspraul> CE is a self certification
<DocScrutinizer> CE is self-cerified
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: i can so see it. the bored customs official needs to put some country. the program doesn't have "earth" or "people". he's having a bad day, so stamps it as "incomplete customs paperwork". and it either goes back or the customer gets a letter asking them to handle it personally.
<wolfspraul> yes, it passed including the power adapter
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: who says that anybody would fill in 'earth' in that field?
<DocScrutinizer> LOL
<wolfspraul> we know they have no humor, or reason
<wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: tell me more about the fuse
<tuxbrain> Wolf, I understand you point but.... don't angry customs please!!! I'm in the other end!!!, and they are reaaaaaallly picky lately
<wolfspraul> where is it missing?
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: so, why not just make it "Taiwan" and be done with it ? is this a fight you really need to pick ? :)
<DocScrutinizer> 2A slowblow, in J11:1 -> C142
<DocScrutinizer> or a littelfuse
<tuxbrain> wolfspraul: listen wpwrak please
<tuxbrain> please please please
<wolfspraul> tuxbrain: did you have any issues with the latest nanonote or m1 packages?
<DocScrutinizer> "MAde in" usually is location of final assembly
<wpwrak> for the voltage rating, it would be very useful to determine the real range (with whatever safety margin you need to keep this simple)
<DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: this fuse issue is no joke
<wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: I'm too electrically challenged, don't understand you. what would you change/add regarding the fuse? And why do you think without that change it cannot be self-certified as CE compliant?
<wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: oh I think the power circuit on m1 can become much stronger, no doubt.
<tuxbrain> luckily not but I have a bureocratic nightmare with some Pakages form USA.
<wolfspraul> we simply didn't have that time/feedback yet, now thanks to you maybe we do...
<tuxbrain> just because they don't like the invoice format...
<DocScrutinizer> AIUI a CE device must have a safe failure mode. Shorting external PSU on arbitrary regulator failure is not safe, it will make your PCB go up in flames
<wolfspraul> the guy checking for CE compliance had no issue at all with the current design and performance (there were a lot of tests that included the power supply)
<DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: my suggestion: change order: cut connection from J11,pin1 to C142. Insert a 2A fuse slowblow
<wolfspraul> so if we think we know CE better than him, we need to pinpoint him to the exact regulation
<DocScrutinizer> o.O on some guy doing CE. It's usually self-issued
<wolfspraul> yes, but how can I (a non-electrical guy) self-issue? only after having done CE tests with a professional, in this case reichl-emv.de
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: maybe ask him about the fuse issue ?
<wolfspraul> irrespective of that, at some point we will probably want to make the power circuit more robust
<DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: I don't really know about regulations. I know about proper design though, and about common practice in industry (which maybe allows conclude about regulations)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: maybe he thought you were only concerned with EMC ?
<DocScrutinizer> REICHL???
<DocScrutinizer> omg
<DocScrutinizer> emv
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: old friend of yours ? ;-)
<DocScrutinizer> if that's what I think it is, then no chance they find such issues :-P
<wolfspraul> or maybe the 'issue' doesn't matter because there are tons of products with this level on the market, and it actually doesn't conflict with CE regulations at all
<DocScrutinizer> ELV is some strange company with a monthly magazine that frequently has poor schematics like that
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: does look like EMC-centric specialists, no ? :)
<DocScrutinizer> Ohh, nope. Completely off topic. Sorry
<wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: for the m1 power supply, I'm mostly worried about the lack of wrong polarity protection, and maybe some over-voltage protection too.
<DocScrutinizer> yes, that's an EMC specialist, and he probably doesn't know much about DC
<wolfspraul> guess what - I take his word and self-certify as CE compliant :-)
<DocScrutinizer> OVP is maybe bearable. Fuse and inverse polarity prot isn't
<DocScrutinizer> and it goes hand in hand
<wolfspraul> agreed
<DocScrutinizer> ok
<wolfspraul> like I said - I know the m1 power circuit is not robust enough, in my personal opinion
<wolfspraul> but among the many priorities, we simply haven't gotten to making it stronger yet
<wolfspraul> with your help maybe we can :-)
<wolfspraul> we may even try to fold that change into rc3, if it's not too intrusive
<DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: my suggestion: change order: cut connection from J11,pin1 to C142. Insert a 2A fuse slowblow. add a 2A diode parallel to C142, so it shorts VCC when polarity is inverted
<wolfspraul> will there be very large components / big relayout / big electrical risks?
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: is adding a (chip) fuse something that could be done with rework ? or is it too unreliable ?
<DocScrutinizer> rework like field change order?
<wolfspraul> once we're at it we can also look at the ovp. right now it's weak that's why we have this +/- 5% thing
<DocScrutinizer> depends on PCB layout
<wolfspraul> let's focus on rc3
<wolfspraul> we have layout changes anyway for rc3
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: are you really sure about that 5V +/- 5% ? sounds very very unusual
<wolfspraul> this is the perfect time to suggest more things for rc3
<DocScrutinizer> chop fuse is fine. I'd suggest a littelfuse self healing anyway
<wolfspraul> we had a chart/graph somewhere that listed this
<DocScrutinizer> chip*
<wolfspraul> I think up to 5.6 or so may still be ok
<wolfspraul> but over 6.2 will definitely be above what some ics are speced for
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: still pretty narrow. (6.2 V) wow.
<wolfspraul> even less I think
<wolfspraul> there was a chart/graph somewhere, but I doubt I can find it now
<DocScrutinizer> make that diode suggested above a 6.3V Zener, that acts like a normal diode in reverse voltage
<wpwrak> then i'd agree with DocScrutinizer: this should be a warning label
<wolfspraul> we have to wait for Adam, who is currently at Xilinx office to track down the power-up bug (#1 on the wiki page)
<DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: o.O
<DocScrutinizer> the regulators will blow chunks on 6.2V input?? how that?
<wolfspraul> don't take my word, we need to find the exact chart
<wolfspraul> or wait for Adam
<wolfspraul> who is offline right now because he's with Xilinx :-)
<wpwrak> virtually anything that works on 5 V also tolerates 6 V +/- 10%, usually much more. so there's a real risk that the device could be connected to a supply that goes too high.
<wolfspraul> I would love to make the power supply stronger, that's really very helpful and great timing too, if we can fit it in for rc3.
<wpwrak> will tht sticker go on rc2 or only >= rc3 ?
<DocScrutinizer> if this schematics wasn't so messy, It'd be simple to track down which chips are connected to %V VCC
<DocScrutinizer> 5V
<DocScrutinizer> but I can't swear there's no other weird 5V inverted ground symbol anywhere in these 12 pages
<DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: absolutely - yes
<DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: but I really doubt there's any chip that will blow on 6.2V
<DocScrutinizer> I mean, it seems that's all regulators. as long as R182 NC
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: well, some chips that connect to power have very low "absolute maximum values". usually usb-ish things, though. for common regulators, it seems very picky.
<wpwrak> i've seen some freaky ultra-low-power regulators that have a very low maximum vin, but i suspect that's more for thermal considerations than anything else. can't get all that much heat out of a 2x2 mm BGA ;-)
<DocScrutinizer> alas the pdf isn't searchable. So no way to make semi-sure there's no other 5v offsheet symbol somewhere on p56
<wpwrak> and of course, the supply voltage should be specified for normal operation, not the maximum non-destructive voltage. so if your regs go into thermal shutdown all the time but don
<wpwrak> t take any real damage, that's still not good enough
<wpwrak> note to self: should write a net to components lister for kicad
<DocScrutinizer> also I wonder what for are those L7 L8 L9 L10 L12 L20
<DocScrutinizer> looks contraproductive to me
<wpwrak> beads ?
<wolfspraul> there's something, but not what I was looking for http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_Power_Tree
<DocScrutinizer> usually you don't want to worsen the regulator's phantom impedance
<DocScrutinizer> looks like an invention of an EMC specialist :-P
<wolfspraul> I definitely want to limit changes in rc3 to low-risk stuff
<DocScrutinizer> haha
<DocScrutinizer> me too
<DocScrutinizer> just kicking out high risk cruft :-)
<wolfspraul> because not only is rc2 fully functioning, but it also passed the tests I need to happily self-certify CE
<DocScrutinizer> well, the above mentioned Lnn don't help. Your tests were not passed because but rather despite them being there
<wolfspraul> I will find that overvoltage analysis chart later, when Adam is bac.
<DocScrutinizer> risk of such a design is regulator starting wild oscillating
<DocScrutinizer> look, the regulators are all linear type, and they don't create any noise or RF that needs to get filtered from the rest of circuit
<DocScrutinizer> and they aren't sensible to noise feed back from rest of circuit either
<DocScrutinizer> but they might start oscillating when a mostly inductive load is seen on output
<DocScrutinizer> so Lnn are dangerous, if anything
<wolfspraul> just gimme the bottom line :-)
<DocScrutinizer> the good part of the story - you can replace them by 0R
<wolfspraul> I am not aware of any problem there. How would one see it?
<wolfspraul> what does need improvement is the power supply circuit, wrong polarity
<wolfspraul> ovp
<DocScrutinizer> you'd see it on more noise in the rest of circuit VDDs making the thing instable, and occasionally you might find one board or another actually oscillating on one of the regulator outputs
<wolfspraul> ok we need to see what Adam or lekernel think of it, for me no need to change something I don't understand and afaik causes no problem.
<DocScrutinizer> it increases chances you will see problems eventually, occasionally
<wolfspraul> we've had two runs now, first one 6 boards, second one 40 boards.
<wolfspraul> next one will be 80-90 boards.
<DocScrutinizer> you also won't usually see problems without fuse
<DocScrutinizer> it's all about risk management: design so the potential problem sources get minimized
<DocScrutinizer> there's no use in cargo cult designing. And I don't see any other reason for those C236, L20, C237 and siblings
<DocScrutinizer> such design makes sense for maybe electron tube radios
<DocScrutinizer> not though for linear regulator IC
<DocScrutinizer> for OVP you got my above suggestion - BOM add: 1 fuse, one Zener
<DocScrutinizer> I can scrutinize the whole schematics later on, and pull the datasheets for the regulators
<DocScrutinizer> to verify this suggestion is sufficient for the purpose
<DocScrutinizer> I'd prefer a Zener + Thyristor design though, as otherwise on small OV (like 6.5V) the Zener might break before the fuse trips
<DocScrutinizer> anyway I guess all the regulators are rated sth like max in = 30V
<DocScrutinizer> transient
<DocScrutinizer> and probably even have OverTemp shutdown
<DocScrutinizer> so no probelm at all with OVP
<wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: alright, let's write your suggestions up on the wiki a bit
<wolfspraul> what should I write exactly?
<wolfspraul> what should we write about L7/8/9/10/12/20, C236/237?
<wolfspraul> this is our work basis for rc3: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC2_Known_Issues
<DocScrutinizer> insert fuse between powerjack and first capacitor (see above). Add a diode parallel to first capacitor, to short inverse polarity and make fuse trip
<DocScrutinizer> make all the Lnn as mentioned above 0R  (those L that are in regulator outputs together with the 100nF Cs)
<DocScrutinizer> the C's nectby are cruft then, one of two, as well
<DocScrutinizer> but don't hurt, so you might consider removing one of two, and make the other 200nF, for BOM reduction
<wolfspraul> alright, I just copy/paste it for now http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC2_Known_Issues
<DocScrutinizer> scratch R182 pads, looks dangerous
<wolfspraul> I'm pretty sure there are good reasons for all of this, but we can go through...
<DocScrutinizer> DAMNIT! midi tx U7, p6
<DocScrutinizer> ok, add a <tbd>R in 5v VCC of U7, add a 5.2 Zener to gnd
<wolfspraul> yes, what?
<DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: that's your chip that emits magic blue smoke on 6.5V
<DocScrutinizer> need to check max I it takes from Vcc and min voltage it can work on, then specify above mentioned R accordingly. to be done later
<DocScrutinizer> I need to check the whole schematics, if there's some other similar bugger
<DocScrutinizer> if somebody could toss me over the midi bus specs, that'd help
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: btw, will adam work through the CNY week ? i'm going over my prototype schedule. with the delays and infrastructure (power) problems, i probably won't have them ready before middle next week. when i ship them right then, they'll arrive in the middle of CNY.
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: your google is probably as good as everyone else's :-)
<DocScrutinizer> I bet it is
<DocScrutinizer> I'm just incredibly lazy :-)
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: i know ;-))
<DocScrutinizer> probably even no google, just wikipedia
<DocScrutinizer> anyway, have to care about my own processor's VDD now, bbl
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: an alternative schedule would be to complete the atben boards, then try the avr-based atusb design. if that works well (and quickly), i'd scrap the current atusb pcbs (still unpopulated) and make avr-based ones instead. this would add about one more week, if things go well.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: if things don't go well, i'd fall back to the current atusb design and save the avr for later. i have parts for either choice.
<DocScrutinizer> btw it seems to me like midi-rx is actually a tx circuit, and midi-tx is a rx circuit then? Then I wonder why midi-tx needs 5v Vcc at all
<DocScrutinizer> while midi-rx is sending with only 3.3V current loop
<DocScrutinizer> aah, scratch that
<DocScrutinizer> friggin missing offsheet symbols
<lekernel> MM runs only _one_ app. do I need a MMU for that? no. so stop nerding around...
<wolfspraul> nothing better than good focus :-)
<wolfspraul> lekernel: can you quickly glance over some of DocScrutinizer's ideas and see which make sense to you?
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: you are talking about changing the usb firmware chip to avr?
<wpwrak> just imagine how much more focus you'd get with 0 apps ;-)
<wolfspraul> adam definitely will not work over cny, and I don't think our schedule is that precise/fast anyway
<lekernel> +/- 5% comes from the USB standard (the DC input powers directly the USB ports)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: yes. didn't you see that one ? i mentioned it on the list a while ago
<wolfspraul> yes I saw it, I just wasn't clear on the practical consequences yet
<lekernel> besides, there are current limitations in every regulator, on the USB ports and in the wall plug... do we really need a FUSE? I've never had any power supply problem
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (adam) so he'll be afk or even away from his mailbox in the week feb 3-7 ?
<wpwrak> lekernel: i think the role of the fuse it to blow when that one-in-a-million problem happens that then causes your board to overheat, burn, and torch your apartment. doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's no fun.
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: he may not even be in Taipei, yes
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: the practical consequence is a redesign of the board (the easy MCU side, not the messy RF), hopefully without changing the size, evaluation of the noise filter on the clock signal (that's something new it needs, due to the AVR needing an external clock source),
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: and then new firmware for the AVR. there's a USB stack I may be able to use, which should help speed things along. the transceiver-specific side of the firmware is very simple.
<DocScrutinizer> lekernel: there's no power limitation in the PSU, simply because you allow to plug in random ones. The current limits in regulators are fine as long as no shit happens. Fuse is for the case when a regulator breaks and shorts VDD to GND
<lekernel> removal of ferrite beads: maybe, I put them there in case we had to fix EMI problems or to be able to disconnect a power supply rail in case of issues
<lekernel> but I wouldn't remove them since:
<lekernel> 1. they are dirt cheap
<lekernel> 2. it works with
<lekernel> 3. it would be wise to re-do some EMC tests after removing them, which takes time
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: in addition, i'll also need a new programming cable (one more signal) and maybe just write a little avr programmer (probably quicker than adapting one of the existing monstrosities)
<lekernel> 4. there are super-more important issues like software
<lekernel> when we make 1000 units a month, we'll talk again about that
<DocScrutinizer> beads in power rails are generally a bad idea
<lekernel> I don't care, it works
<DocScrutinizer> and will increase EMI problems, not lower them
<DocScrutinizer> oh well, ok
<DocScrutinizer> cya
<lekernel> depends, sometimes the device has to accept incoming power perturbations
<lekernel> in this case the ferrite beads and the caps help
<DocScrutinizer> bs
<DocScrutinizer> and ciao
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (adam away) okay, seems that the avr will get its try :) (ah, and i think it's a few cents cheaper than the silabs chip as well :)
<wpwrak> lekernel: they're on the primary side then ?
<lekernel> what? the beads? primary side of what?
<lekernel> they're in series with each rail
<lekernel> and right at the DC jack input
<wolfspraul> ok if we cannot discuss and go through joerg's feedback I will remove it from the wiki page to not confuse adam. I'll leave it there another day or two to see what happens, then it moves to the page history :-)
<wpwrak> lekernel: primary side of the regulators, i mean. if the perturbations come from the DC supply, you'd want to catch them there. if they make it past the LDO, i doubt any filter on the secondary side will accomplish much.
<lekernel> maybe they're useless
<lekernel> but finding out is extra work that's not worth it imo
<wpwrak> lekernel: well, in case they confuse the LDO (not sure how likely that is to happen). you can always 0R them. that's an easy change :)
<lekernel> and I didn't mean to offend Joerg, but I had to say clearly that we shouldn't spend time on that until we run into actual power supply problems...
<lekernel> yeah, exactly, it's an easy fix
<wolfspraul> lekernel: the discussion started when Joerg thought a design without a fuse is bad.
<wpwrak> lekernel: properly fusing/protecting the whole thing is probably more work
<lekernel> there are already current limits everywhere... isn't a fuse overkill?
<wolfspraul> if we make changes in rc3, I would like to get consensus between lekernel and adam that they are good and will not introduce regressions
<lekernel> also, a fuse has some parasitic resistance, too
<wolfspraul> if we cannot get such consensus -> no chnage
<wpwrak> lekernel: a fuse is basically your safety belt. of course, everybody drives carefully, so accidents should never happen ...
<wolfspraul> lekernel: I trust Joerg's judgment, although there may be misunderstandings somewhere since he just started to look at the schematics, and has stopped for now, I'd think :-)
<wpwrak> lekernel: (offend joerg) i think the styles of both of you are very fertile for conflict ;-)
<wolfspraul> for sure
<wolfspraul> :-)
<lekernel> bbl
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: that was an energetic and quick 'dialogue'
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> and it all started with a little label at the bottom of the case...
<wpwrak> ;-))
<kristianpaul> you can swich made with assemble
<kristianpaul> there are lots oh mobile phone like that
<wejp> wolfspraul: thanks for your suggestions about gmu
<kristianpaul> (5V +/- 5% ? sounds very very unusual) indeed
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: "you can swich made with assemble" qu'est-ce que c'est ? ;-)
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: the highly precise 5 V looks like trouble. particularly if you need to strip the original supply for import reasons. such an accurate monster will be hard to source reliably.
<wpwrak> also the absence of OVP is worrying. it's not unheard of that such adapters leak a bit of AC.
<kristianpaul> (do we really need a FUSE? I've never had any power supply problem) use the FUSE and you never will :-)
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: well, how often has a seat belt in a car saved your neck so far ? :)
<kristianpaul> i meant, sorry i just wake up, in the M1 Label you can _replace _ Made on with Assemble in
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: (highly precise) sure, you'll never get that
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: aah ! yes, you see that from time to time, true. not sure what exactly is required there. the "made in ..." seems to have some semi-legal meaning.
<kristianpaul> he i just discover my M1 power adapter, have a 5V laberl overwritten a 12V one :p
<kristianpaul> ah legal..
<kristianpaul> ok
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: i'm afraid there is not detection/protection in the a case wrong polarity power adapter is pluged..
<kristianpaul> I need check sch
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: (never get highly precise) the first challenge would be to find a power supply where the tolerance is even specified
<kristianpaul> later, i gotta run work now !
<kristianpaul> chao
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: most of the switching supplies are actually surprisingly accurate. but then, you never know under what conditions...
<wpwrak> (12 V overwritten) ouch !
<kristianpaul> but i tested before !!
<kristianpaul> the label was TOOO obvious
<kristianpaul> may adam or wolfspraul can explain that ;-)
<tuxbrain_away> any one can spend with me some time to help me in update the MM to Flickernoise 0.2 and SoC-R2?
<tuxbrain_away> 0.1 seems to not support softw reflashing...
<tuxbrain_away> I just realize on one thing!
<tuxbrain_away> ops maybe I put this in mm chanel
<wolfspraul> wejp: oh very welcome, I'm happy to use your software.
<wolfspraul> I'm slower/later than others, but I really enjoy it now :-)
<wejp> :)
<wolfspraul> tuxbrain_away: you should have the jtag-serial boards with your m1, no?
<wolfspraul> if 'made on earth' is not as enthousiastically welcomed as I hoped, maybe I just remove it altogether
<tuxbrain_away> yes I have but I have no Idea on how to usit and MM wiki instructions are a little bit messed for my level :(
<wolfspraul> although any implications with actual customs are far far exaggerated imho. that's not how the world works.
<tuxbrain_away> is a good marketing motto but bad idea in the adminstrative side on things
<wolfspraul> no way.
<wolfspraul> customs works with forms, it's a bureaucracy
<wolfspraul> fill out something wrong, and there is a problem
<wolfspraul> but whether something is blatantly wrongly declared or not won't matter in 99.9% of cases
<wolfspraul> I can say 'made in togo' and build a multi-billion USD business although it's made in iran, of all places.
<wolfspraul> until finally someone says 'hey, there are these sanctions, no?"
<tuxbrain_away> Made on earth /Assembled in Taiwan doesn't fit?
<wolfspraul> I don't like 'assembled in', it reduces the copyleft value for no good reason.
<wolfspraul> I make a second label for the chickens.
<tuxbrain_away> heheeheh
<wolfspraul> that will be glued all over, top, bottom, sides, box.
<wolfspraul> hopefully that will not conflict with some regulation somewhere, but hey, you asked for it...
<wolfspraul> what I care about is the thankyou url, to give credits to the various people and companies involved
<wolfspraul> and also the cc-by-sa logo, as well as ce/fcc logos because these are good quality standards that I actually care about
<wolfspraul> same for rohs
<wolfspraul> or other environmental standards, carbon footprint, etc.
<tuxbrain_away> man, we are brave enough to build, pay and market hardware against any previouse way done in hardware industry.... don't make all this faith steps fail for fight against custosms, onces we move full cargo ships of our material, we will have a position where we can argue against
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (customs) blatantly wrong but plausible (within the system) would be better than implausible (in the context of the system) :)
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: give you an example about your beloved power supplies with the 'right' symbol on them
<wolfspraul> if the symbol is not visible somewhere, we are in trouble
<wolfspraul> I'm 100% with you
<wolfspraul> but if the stupid symbol is printed on a label somewhere, which odds do you think there are that any _actual_ technical compliance with that standard will be checked/verified?
<wolfspraul> so the issue is just on the other side to know about the symbol, and go through the pain of modifying the label and printing a new one
<wolfspraul> that's it
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: unlikely. but with "made on earth", it sticks out. so if there's some obscure requirement to declare the "origin" (in whatever sense), then you made it clear that you're refusing to comply.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: that's different from a white lie
<wolfspraul> those are _declaration_ requirements
<wolfspraul> in a form
<wolfspraul> not on a label somewhere
<wolfspraul> get the label right, form wrong: not pass
<wolfspraul> get the form right, label wrong: pass
<tuxbrain_away> not, agree, get the form right, label wrong and you maybe pass
<tuxbrain_away> if a visual inspection is done (and I suffer this ones) you will not pass
<zrafa> I got an freerunner with its charger wihtout problems, without any label.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: if you're sure about that, okay. one question is also whether customs know precisely what is required. sometimes they don't know the fine print of the law either. for them, it may be paperwork and label agree -> pass. else, be more suspicious.
<wolfspraul> tuxbrain_away: do you have more precise info? I always like to learn, just need to have hard data.
<tuxbrain_away> yes and time to time I get custom passed without paying taxes but that's not the point
<wpwrak> zrafa: i had three shipments held up because they contained chargers.
<wolfspraul> you had a problem with 'country of origin' declaration somewhere?
<wolfspraul> what was it exactly?
<wolfspraul> you attach way too much significance to a label
<zrafa> wpwrak: yep, I know.. which kind of stuff had those three shipments?
<wolfspraul> there is no regulation that says a product with a faulty label cannot be imported
<wolfspraul> legal is funny.
<wolfspraul> adamw_: hi good evening!
<wpwrak> zrafa: eventually i grew bored of driving to ezeiza twice per shipment and spending half a day on each trip, plus a considerable amount of money to get those things unblocked. so then i started to request that power supplies be removed before shipping. never had an issue since.
<tuxbrain_away> I have found references a lot of references  but are in spanish and relative vage, not clear  legal article yet
<wolfspraul> sure they make a big fuss about 'country of origin'
<tuxbrain_away> legal is hell
<wolfspraul> mostly for their flawed statistics
<wpwrak> zrafa: an OQO 01 with DHL, and OQO 01+ with FedEx, my first openmoko "kit" (phone, jtag, and unfortunately some external power circuit) via DHL
<zrafa> wpwrak: yeah.. and ezeiza has some mafia about shipments surely.. they ask money and you better be quiet
<tuxbrain_away> it also has to vio of extra taxes depending on country of origin
<wolfspraul> true
<wolfspraul> but what about traders who buy, relabel, resell?
<wolfspraul> you think those things don't exist?
<wpwrak> well, there was one more where i had troubles: another openmoko phone with DHL. there, they did an extra examination because they weren't sure what this thing did. that was in a single trip, though, without bribes
<wolfspraul> it's not even illegal!
<wolfspraul> those are very legitimate and honoroable businesses :-)
<wolfspraul> they deal with real problems in our real world
<tuxbrain_away> yes !! and incompte firmwares or partial asembled hardware and alot of tricks
<wolfspraul> ship from a to b, relabel, ship from b to c
<wolfspraul> if someone thinks this should be valuable, so be it
<wolfspraul> that's what we have capitalism for
<adamw_> good evening!
<wolfspraul> adamw_: before you talk about Xilinx, I had another question
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (attach significance to a label) it's not me per se. it's those fine people working at customs. they look at those labels. they believe it's harder to falsify a label than the documents.
<tuxbrain_away> I thinkg I going thoug TFTP approach to flashing MM
<wolfspraul> we were talking about the overvoltage protection in m1
<wolfspraul> and I remember one time you published a little graph/chart about voltage ranges, but I couldn't find it anymore
<wolfspraul> do you remember where that was?
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: ok, we keep our label easily removable anyway, that's a good quality to have.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: ;-))
<wolfspraul> and I remove the 'made on earth' upon popular request.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: excellent !
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: how about 'made by the people'?
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: please ...
<wolfspraul> ok ok
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> you guys are holding me down, what can I do
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: you could also put the A-in-circle amindst the certification logos (-:C
<wpwrak> amidst even
<tuxbrain_away> put f&#ing made in taiwan , damn it
<tuxbrain_away> hahaha wpwrak
<tuxbrain_away> also a beautiful logo with an axe and a snake twisted on it will sure be very wellcome here in spain
<wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: there's a place called Fuxing in taipei. "MADE IN FUXING TAIWAN" ? ;-)
<wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: what's the axe-with-snake ?
<tuxbrain_away> some svasticas in the corners and a little of arab "Ala agbar"
<tuxbrain_away> ETA's logo
<adamw_> wolfspraul, why do you want to know this? I bet very few people noticed this carefully before! :-)
<wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: i was just about to suggest the swastika ;-))
<zrafa> "made in antartic, SC dark side industries"
<wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: and let's not forget a few unflattering pictures of mohammed
<wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: (eta) nice ! :) actually, to piss of argentina customs, "MADE IN FALKLANDS" ought to work miracles ;-)
<tuxbrain_away> oh yeah!
<wpwrak> adamw_: eventually, all your dark secrets will be uncovered ;-) wikileaks will be followed by qileaks (wolfgang: too bad it's too late for mokoleaks - that would have been fun :)
<tuxbrain_away> why not "we qi leaks" :P
<wpwrak> hehe :)
<adamw_> wpwrak, I even really didn't know if I had have put this doc in the wiki already...:-) I also didn't find in Milkymist One wiki page myself.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: for the "thankyou", maybe put it elsewhere ? also, the URL sounds like the content would be "valued customer, thank you for choosing our excellent product", which doesn't seem to be what you have in mind ?
<adamw_> so I think I really must "forgot" to put this link connected to wiki somewhere, damn it. :-)
<adamw_> let me put it to connect to home page now. :-)
<wolfspraul> adamw_: we discussed this earlier, with Joerg
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: do you think the 'A' symbol for Argentine would also matter on m1, or only the power adapter?
<adamw_> wolfspraul, hmm..good, any news?
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: only on the power adapter
<wolfspraul> not really, Joerg made some suggestions but we didn't find the right way to discuss them yet
<wolfspraul> how did Xilinx go? did you go there today?
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: tuxbrain_away on the issue of labeling and customs, note that I shipped nanos to 30+ countries in the last year, and in every case, I took the full risk, meaning that I would have refunded the customer if there would have been any unsolvable problem.
<wolfspraul> yet I am still the biggest risk taker in this, I wouldn't hesitate for 1 second to write whatever on such a label
<wolfspraul> my experience with those 30+ countries has been positive overall, I mean customs is still a pita, but in the end it's all just paperwork
<adamw_> wolfspraul, i went to there of course.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: but you kept the labeling sane. CE, FCC, "made in China". and no power supply.
<wolfspraul> true
<wolfspraul> now the next level :-)
<adamw_> got new ideas, so I need to modify one board and try to check.
<wolfspraul> adamw_: that .odp is not what I meant.
<wolfspraul> I meant a chart I remember once where you looked at which IC would fail at which OVERvoltage
<wolfspraul> the result was that up to 6.2 or so was still ok?
<wolfspraul> or 5.7?
<wolfspraul> I forgot
<wolfspraul> anyway it was a little table that looked at the consequences of overvoltage to the various ics
<wolfspraul> the .odp you have here (which is very nice too) looks at operating voltages
<adamw_> ha..right, you should see them carefully. :-)
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: I'm still learning in all this, the big fish one day will undoubtedly be the phone.
<wpwrak> is the plan to just fix small flaws for rc3 or could also be more substantial changes be considered ? e.g., i wonder if the whole power circuit shouldn't just begin with a big DC-DC converter that has a wide input range and that gives clean power to the rest.
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: it depends whether we get this feedback in a form quick enough and high quality enough to make use of it.
<wolfspraul> if it's just "the power circuit sucks", then rc3 == rc2
<adamw_> at the rightest brown color for LM4550 CODEC.
<wpwrak> hmm, send a pack of valium and a sixpack of beer joerg's way ? :)
<wolfspraul> in my urgency scale this is not at the very top, although if someone like Joerg would come and think it through a little and work on it together with Adam, we probably could do it.
<adamw_> moment, let me pointed the page of datasheet. :-)
<wolfspraul> actually ben-wpan will also allow us to get to 'the next level', because it is an 'intentional radiator'
<wolfspraul> lots of FUD associated with them, so let's clear that up...
<wolfspraul> country of origin is not something that makes me loose a lot of sleep
<wpwrak> i think a less fussy power supply would also be beneficial for the intended usage. imagine the vj shows up and finds that he forgot his adapter, that the adapter has the wrong plug (when travelling), etc. then the temptation of just plugging in the next adapter that's at hand would be overwhelmingly difficult to resist.
<wolfspraul> I agree with you, now what?
<wolfspraul> who moves to action
<wolfspraul> (i'm not saying you should, I'm just saying that is exactly where things stand)
<wolfspraul> as you know I was very happy to see Joerg giving us feedback, well I didn't get too far with it...
<wolfspraul> without someone taking action, rc3 == rc2 in that area
<wolfspraul> the rc2 known issues wiki page lists all we plan to do for rc3
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: hmm, maybe first find out how strongly sebastien feels about the perfectness of the current power circuit design ?
<wolfspraul> I can speak for him on that, because we discussed it many times.
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> he would not argue very long that the current design is super robust, or 'consumer standard'
<wolfspraul> on the other hand you need to understand the only reason why he was able to get to where m1 is today is laser sharp focus
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: then ping joerg and see if he's willing to help. connect him with adam maybe. or sebastien on a relaxed day (he seems stressed out lately)
<wolfspraul> he single-handedly built the whole thing from ic design to compiler bugs to kernel to vj app to presenting at conferences
<wolfspraul> that's a miracle that he made it so far :-)
<wolfspraul> and along the way he would have had 1000 distractions that would have made his path one of 500 years, not 2 years
<wolfspraul> in that context you need to see the power circuit design
<wolfspraul> it works, it passes certification, done
<wpwrak> sure. it's an amazing achievement.
<wolfspraul> sebastien is not stressed out over this.
<wolfspraul> he is focused.
<wpwrak> no, i mean in general
<wolfspraul> didn't notice that, he is traveling a bit at the moment
<wolfspraul> travel is terribly time consuming...
<adamw_> wolfspraul, AVDD min. is described on p.3 of http://www.national.com/profile/snip.cgi/openDS=LM4550B
<wolfspraul> adamw_: I added a little section to http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC2_Known_Issues
<wolfspraul> at the beginning "joerg's feedback"
<wolfspraul> this is just copy/paste from this channel
<wolfspraul> not necessarily action items
<wolfspraul> maybe you can think about it a bit
<wpwrak> that may add pressure. i would also think that the launches may make him nervous. first with the question whether it will succeed, and then also with the things he probably thinks really ought to be done before people use the box.
<wolfspraul> adamw_: for rc3, we definitely only want to introduce changes that are low risk, where you feel it's safe.
<wolfspraul> also by now we have passed a whole test of ce/fcc compliance tests, that adds more pressure to making changes
<wolfspraul> but if there are changes in what Joerg suggested that are safe, we can think about it
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: is redoing the compliance tests an option ?
<wolfspraul> of course, no problem
<wpwrak> perfect
<wolfspraul> I love testing, quality, etc.
<wpwrak> ;-)))
<wolfspraul> if we think our design got better, why should we be afraid of that?
<wpwrak> i was more thinking in terms of money, logistics, and all that
<wolfspraul> no it's just a little additional cost and delays, sure, like many other things.
<adamw_> h/w all inputs or/ suggestions are needed to introduce on Milkymist list not just put wiki or irc i think.
<wolfspraul> can be organized, no problem.
<wolfspraul> adamw_: fair enough. Don't let this distract you.
<wolfspraul> it's just fyi
<wolfspraul> I just put it there so it's remembered somewhere.
<wolfspraul> it's under 'joerg's feedback' so you know we have no consensus that we want this stuff.
<wolfspraul> also it is not clear to me whether/how sebastien and joerg can agree upon the significance, risk, correctness of those changes.
<wolfspraul> if they cannot agree, we don't change anything.
<wpwrak> i think fuse and polarity inversion diode should be no-brainers
<wolfspraul> adamw_: how long was the xilinx meeting?
<wolfspraul> how open minded were they to helping you?
<adamw_> oah..surely put first. then send to list. and 'discuss' on list. and proposed by whom needs to put more clear reasons or explanation. :)
<adamw_> around 2.5 hr...haha
<wolfspraul> adamw_: 100% agreed. you know how this works nowadays...
<wpwrak> the junk at the output of the regulators, i don't know. according to joerg, they can only make things worse, and can be hidden traps (e.g., when the frequency of power consumption changes ... changes)
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: no foss chaos can easily confuse adam anymore!
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: hehe ;-))
<wolfspraul> adamw_: were they helpful? can we go there for more support?
<adamw_> i really understood some pins on fpga side: like DONE/INIT_B/PROGRAM_B. :- )
<wpwrak> PLAN_B ? :)
<adamw_> and I drawed the MM1 power up / down whole timing power seqeunces on supplies, flash and fpga pins..then we found a very potential status will cause that 'bug'. :)
<adamw_> yeah....before like PLAN_B or so, I needs to make clear timing sequences, otherwise I think my poor english will let people known what I said. :)
<wolfspraul> adamw_: well that sounds great!
<wolfspraul> more good documentation coming from you, nice :-)
<wpwrak> adamw_: (likely cause) that sounds very promising !
<adamw_> tomorrow I'll work on this first...then find a another part to add it..
<wolfspraul> adamw_: still my question - how friendly were they?
<wolfspraul> do you have access to their whole lab?
<wolfspraul> they give you an fae to help, or two?
<wolfspraul> can we go there again, or one-time only?
<adamw_> friendly? I entered their office not lab..
<wolfspraul> no tech work, just discussions?
<adamw_> surely , I need to go to there again...the guy who is very busy, he has have pm3:30 for other customer, but I made a pointment first...well we are still small...ha:-)
<adamw_> but surely they are friendly to me.
<wolfspraul> good
<adamw_> no..tech work, discussion enough...ha I brought my works to him..and described to him...then secrets sounds explored.
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: you mentioned simulation once in conjunction with ben-wpan
<wolfspraul> that made me think - how much can simulation help us discover problems of an entire design early?
<adamw_> the xilinx reference boards surely have the same status.
<wolfspraul> yeah, that's in line with what Sebastien thinks
<adamw_> i can explain later...ha. :) I just need to do drawing. and search part to do experiment..
<wolfspraul> great, good luck!
<wolfspraul> adamw_: wpwrak was asking how many days you take off for cny, and whether you are in taipei at that time
<adamw_> this bug is very much 'un-usual'...as we already knew.
<adamw_> what' is 'cny'?
<wolfspraul> chinese new year
<adamw_> oah..probably 2/1(or 2) ~ 2/7, send gift to me? :-)
<adamw_> atusb etc?
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: [simulation] can we simulate an entire m1? can we play through proposed changes such as the ones from joerg, maybe even including emi effects etc?
<wolfspraul> if not today, is this realistic at some time in the future?
<wolfspraul> adamw_: yeah! gifts! :-)
<wolfspraul> so we just assume you are not in taipei 2/1 to 2/8 or so, should be no problem
<adamw_> the bug is not related Xilinx itself , it's about whole h/w design. we guessed :-) just need take actions first then see.
<adamw_> good...send it out maybe on after 2/5 or so. then I must receive it.
<roh> morning
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (simulation) i use it for small subsystems. more to help the design process, e.g., the dimensioning of analog components, check for parameter stability, and such
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (entire mm1) you'd have to simplify and abstract it a lot. i'm not sure how detailed you can get. not the whole fpga for sure, but maybe some aperiodic power consumption patterns might work. (you'd have to measure/model them, though)
<wpwrak> adamw_: perfect. gives more some more time to tinker :) i'll try the silabs->avr conversion for atusb. but this will take a few days.
<wpwrak> s/gives more/gives me/
<wolfspraul> roh: morning
<adamw_> wpwrak, tinker? can't follow you..well, i know you are working for that avr conversion. :)
<wolfspraul> adamw_: tinker means he wants to work some more
<roh> morning wolfspraul
<adamw_> wolfspraul, ha..
<wpwrak> adamw_: (tinker) something between work and play ;-)
<adamw_> wpwrak, hahaha...good hint. sometimes not easy, only by whom possesses enthusiasm ;-)
<Artlav> Hi all.
<buggus1> hi
<Artlav> Anyone familiar with NanoNote problems?
<Artlav> Specifically, how can i fix the cd following symlinks?
<Artlav> a symlinked to /b/c
<Artlav> Regular linux: cd /a -> /a. cd .. -> /. symlink /a/b to .. -> /
<Artlav> Openwrt: cd /a ->/b/c. cd .. -> /b. symlink /a/b to .. ->/b
<Artlav> Or does this at least have a googleable name?
<Artlav> So, noone here?
<Artlav> Correction: It's Midnight commander problem, and cd .. is normal behavious, my mistake.
<Artlav> So, "Cd follows links" option in mc is not working.
<kyak> is it working on your linux host?
<Artlav> Yes. And everywhere i ever tried before.
<kyak> does it bother you?
<Artlav> Yes. I have symlink going into the depth of the sd card, and it exits in there instead of the root. Annoying.
<kyak> interesting...
<Artlav> Well, i guess there is no probblem for now - mc is very defective in default image, and i'm on the way to rebuilding it anyway.
<kyak> in what way is it defective?
<Artlav> No syntax highlighting, no extfs - archive viewers. Maybe some more.
<kyak> ah, so it's very limited
<Artlav> Yes, basic or stripped model.
<Artlav> I tried adding the missing files with all the definitions, but it won't notice them. I guess things are simply not compiled in.
<kyak> i'm not using mc myself, but i guess you can enable features of full version and enjoy it
<Artlav> Sure, i hope.
<kyak> yeah, it's Makefile is full with "--without" :)
<Ornotermes> Sparkfun have a MicroSD Sniffer that can be used as a break out board: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9419
<Ornotermes> But for one that have the stuff and know how needed to etch own boards it's cheaper to make one... or a bunch
<rjeffries> in USA I think this price is low. <Ornotermes> Sparkfun have a MicroSD Sniffer that can be used as a break out board: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9419
<rjeffries> Having said that I still plan to build something for 8:10 just as (this is for The Wolf) PROOF OF CONCEPT
<rjeffries> LOL
<rjeffries> let's hope Wolfgang has a sense of humor. But since I think he may be German, "sense of humor" may not be the first thing that comes to mind.
<rjeffries> Yes, I have German friends and have visted that greta country several times. Not sure I  ever saw a German smile. ;)
<rjeffries> STEREOTYPE  so don't band me yet pls. well, if I deserve to be banned, that is ok. must accept my medicine
<rjeffries> s/band/ban
<wpwrak> phew. today's daytime blackout: 5 hours.
<tuxbrain_away> rjeffries: Me and wolfie have put MONEY in this copyleft thing.... I can asure both have TONS of sense of humor :P
<wpwrak> rjeffries: (never seen a german smile) i guess you don't drink beer then ;-)
<rjeffries> wprak maybe that is my problem. I am totally BSing you but there is SCIENTIFIC evidence that those of Germanic heritage (including AUSTRIAN ;) kaugh less smile less and in general are NOT AMERCANs. That's the real probelm. They are not Yanks.
<rjeffries> s/kaugh/laugh (silly typo)
<rjeffries> wpwrak maybe we need to send our Secretary of state to Argintina to look into the disaster of no electricity. This is affecting your productivity and slowing down mission critical engineering of atBen and atUSB.
<wpwrak> rjeffries: (humourless germanics) an interesting statement considering the immigration pattern of the US, let alone more distant common ancestors ;-)
<wpwrak> rjeffries: i guess a secretary of state to EDESUR (the company - occasionally - supplying electricity to my area) might be useful
<wpwrak> rjeffries: of course, they're privatized, so ...
<rjeffries> wpwrak I am so totally joking
<rjeffries> heh my wife comes from german  Russian stock  she does smile,
<rjeffries> I assume it is those Russian genes??
<rjeffries> new topic
<rjeffries> how can we get Carlos back in the club?
<rjeffries> I miss him, and really like his SIE (nee SAKC) device a lot
<rjeffries> biab
<roh> hm. good question. i havent really understood his problem
<roh> s/problem/the logic behind him leaving
<rjeffries> <roh> human nature. he disliked the fuss Wolf made about those crocheted (knitted?) Nanonote cases
<rjeffries> I can sympathise with both sides. but that difference of opinion is (I think) root cause.
<wpwrak> roh: maybe he realized that he wasn't doing enough to move the SIE forward, had somewhat lost interest anyway, and was looking for an excuse for dropping it ?
<rjeffries> we can and must get past that because Carlos and his students are a great resource
<rjeffries> wprak I don't think so. that sounds a little harsh to me.
<roh> rjeffries: i think one needs to differenciate marketing stuff from the technical side
<rjeffries> <roh> agree! anyway the other question is how closely affiliated iwth Carlos is the othe project with a camera I forget the meaningless (to me) acronymn
<wpwrak> rjeffries: (too harsh) maybe. it looked like this pattern of picking a fight only to find an excuse for breaking up to me, though.
<wpwrak> rjeffries: (xue) i think only very loosely right now. as in "he's helped at some point in time and he knows andres" (last man standing, it seems, although virtually disappeared for about a month, too)
<rjeffries> you may be right but I do not think so. Carlos was really upset about the focus on something outside of hardware/softwar eengineer.
<wpwrak> rjeffries: (upset) oh, i agree with his sentiment. i also see plenty of things i don't think are important and where i believe energy could be channeled into more productive directions.
<rjeffries> Carlos was a BIG help early on. He got Ben schematic into Kicad for example. <wprak? have you ever booted up your 64MB Ben with USB Hots made from Kidac design?
<wpwrak> rjeffries: alas, no. never got to play with it so far.
<rjeffries> well this is wolf's sandbox. but sometimes people forget that Wolfgang is Sharisim a commercial company
<zrafa> rjeffries: nah.. the crochet thing was the last excuse like anyone would do if he wants to leave for previous reasons.. I think that wpwrak thougts could be the reasons. If you read Carlos last mails
<rjeffries> and qi-hardware is supposed to be an open community, one where wolf is a member and perhaps first among equals
<zrafa> rjeffries: he said he was tired to send mails people ignored completely, and that
<wpwrak> rjeffries: btw, i don't know if that design was really done with kicad. from what i've heard about the role of other projects, it would seem not.
<rjeffries> yes that had happend I think
<zrafa> rjeffries: he needed some help on kernel side of software side and nobody replied
<rjeffries> so there you have it
<rjeffries> taht would frustrate me as well
<zrafa> rjeffries: crochete was something he maybe did not like (because a lot of answers to that crochete mail).. but that is not a real reason to leave
<zrafa> rjeffries: previous facts are the real
<rjeffries> wpwrak ar eyou saying that the 64MB qty 10 experimental Ben was NOT done using Kicad
<rjeffries> zafra I AGREE you are correct his questions on email fell on deaf ears
<rjeffries> anyway I have consumed my allotment of electrons on that topic
<rjeffries> I will try Carlos again off list
<wpwrak> rjeffries: i'm saying that i don't think it was done (schematics and layout) with kicad. but i'm not an authoritative source on this.
<zrafa> rjeffries: on the other side I tried to reply every mail carlos sent asking something on software side (I replied from jlime point of view), but he never gave feedback about if my answers were useful to him. I think that he wanted other people to reply his questions. Now I am angry because I replied him all his software questions and he did not say thanks..
<rjeffries> wprak who can tell me (off list if need be)
<zrafa> I LEAVE!
<zrafa> nah.. I will stay, party just starts
<zrafa> :P
<rjeffries> <zrafa> I apologize for not knowing who you are (yet) are you Mr JLime? if so, cool beans
<rjeffries> or limes I guess
<zrafa> rjeffries: no problem, Mr JLime does not exist. Jlime exists ;) And if you want to know the real answer : Kristoffer Ericsson is the real Mr Jlime
<zrafa> rjeffries: but well, on nanonote side I did the userland yes
<wpwrak> zrafa: or he posted weird questions that don't have a useful answer. like "recommend an ADC". it's like "what means of transportation should i use ?" (without knowing where you are, where you want to go, and so on)
<wpwrak> zrafa: no reponding to such things is actually a matter of respect. give him time to correct things himself :)
<zrafa> wpwrak: ;-))))
<tuxbrain_away> IMMO I thing just Carlos don't know how to team play, and that anyones here does his best with his limitations
<tuxbrain_away> the SIE batch done was a production nighmare, with a lot of things to fix for the next batch...
<tuxbrain_away> but Carlos don't feel that need, the board was ok for his teaching needs...
<tuxbrain_away> so nor wolfgang and I where confortable on producing another bach of v2, I was really interested on finance an V3 batch but this V3 never comes ...
<rjeffries> <zrafa> is Jlime distro more focused on providing PIM funcyionality
<tuxbrain_away> at some point he was mad on me, and wants me out of the project
<rjeffries> <tuxbrain> comuter h/w and s/w is fairly simple stuff. PEOPLE are hard!
<zrafa> rjeffries: jlime distro is mainly for HP Jornadas and HP Palmtops. For nn we wanted to use our experience on previous years making jlime for hp jornadas (similar ancient devices)
<tuxbrain_away> and wolfgang just tell him the real price of a producion of another v2 batch
<zrafa> for nn
<zrafa> rjeffries: for nn. We did jlime for jornadas with X and gtk1, sdl, etc applications
<rjeffries> understood tucbrain. sounds reasnable
<zrafa> rjeffries: always lightweight applications (that is why we use ancient gtk1 software and no gtk2 which are slow on embedded)
<rjeffries> I have a perfectly working UNUSED for a long time Palm Tungsten C. what a sweet machine, way ahead of its time. now a relic
<zrafa> rjeffries: and we use OpenEmbedded. So the jlime distro for nn is very similar to our distros for HP Jornadas
<tuxbrain_away> this plus the lack of tolerance on the increasing non tech topics in the list (that I find really enriching the project as a whole) has made him decide he is not part of qi
<rjeffries> zrafa so Jlime is open embedded rather than OpenWRT. I;ll bet you are another OpenMoko refugee?
<zrafa> rjeffries: if IIRC jlime is older than openmoko
<tuxbrain_away> a looooot older :)
<rjeffries> OpenMoko also used Openembedded iirr
<rjeffries> s/iirr/iirc
<zrafa> rjeffries: so no.. jlime was living at the same time than openmoko.. and at that time we are not related with openmoko. And as tuxbrain_away says .. it is a loooot older
<rjeffries> hwt was that cool HP palmto that was wide\, clamsheel, faitrky good keybaord? talk about ahead of its time
<zrafa> rjeffries: yes, many use OE :)
<rjeffries> I though OE has a bad reputation and was avoided by W+Qi Hardware for the reason of complexity
<tuxbrain_away> Thanks to jlime and my HP jorndada I was able to finish some university practice on the train, editing and compiling C programs :)
<rjeffries> (reducing complexity)
<tuxbrain_away> OE has his ... let's call it temperament
<tuxbrain_away> but OE and OpenWrt are mostly same philosophy
<zrafa> tuxbrain_away: yeah.. you are right. just one list, many limitations from all of us.. no all the people will be happy like it is
<rjeffries> wprak hypothetical question: starting with exiting Ben design, and ignoring case issues completely (in this context) how practiacl would it be to add a USB hub chip?
<rjeffries> brb
<tuxbrain_away> but due it has been used for very diferent porpouses it has a loooot more package ready than openwrt mainly focused for routers untin NN comes to play
<tuxbrain_away> untin->until
<zrafa> rjeffries: I have my thoughts about.. OE is widely used because you can build a lot of software like distributions for PC, but for devices with few resources. Openwrt is a distribution for routers, and a lot of effort is being put on make openwrt useful for few specific devices, like nn.  OE is more general. On the other side
<zrafa> rjeffries: and I already said it several times ...
<zrafa> rjeffries: I do not like how all the projects use OE and Openwrt to build rootfs again and again and again.. millons of times
<zrafa> rjeffries: I like both things to build repositories of software.. YOu build it once. If you like to improve you can add packages or improve the development system to support/improve new/current packages
<zrafa> rjeffries: but many projects use Openwrt and OE to build the rootfs (the thing you install for the first time) all the time, improving that all the time, building that all the time. I guess that they have a lot of idle cpu and want to use it a bit :P
<zrafa> rjeffries: I am not an expert neither openwrt nor OE, that is why I do not understand why projects do that
<tuxbrain_away> zrafa: totally agree, but you should have a really good release plans , and for example I thing opkg is not so good package manager to be able to manage a "distro" upgrade without breaking things (or opkg it self)
<rjeffries> what is the IRC command to state an action. I thought it was /action
<Jay7> /me ?
<xMff> tuxbrain_away: it can actually work well if kernel related packages and uclibc stuff is set to hold
<xMff> and if enough ram is available
<tuxbrain_away> that a lot of human energy that I thing is translated to CPU energy, but I agree that no need of reflash on every update should be the way to go
<zrafa> tuxbrain_away: yes, that is true. But upgrade and good release plans could be managed different I think. Developing a distribution building its rootfs all the time does not sound to me useful for upgrades.. I would improve the repository on specific and planned releases and, of course, giving users some way to upgrade properly
<rjeffries> nods
<rjeffries> thanks
<tuxbrain_away> RAM  It's just me or is quite demanded lately on qi-community
<rjeffries> the time for more RAM has arrived yes it is obvious
<zrafa> tuxbrain_away: no you, it is quite demanded.. people want openoffice and firefox
<Jay7> we have 64Mb on Zauruses
<Jay7> it is not enough :)
<rjeffries> Wolf need not worry he will still sell a boatload of Ben
<wpwrak> rjeffries: (usb hub) possible, but what for ?
<rjeffries> I agree 64MB is the wrong answer
<Jay7> xorg-server + udev + dbus ... etc
<Jay7> 128Mb is usable minimum now :(
<tuxbrain_away> +compiz+KDE&Gnome together+wifi+320Gb HD+1080p tv output :P
<Jay7> but personally I would prefer 512Mb :)
<rjeffries> wprak I'll let Orotermes defend that idea
<Jay7> tuxbrain_away: no, just any modern web-browser + mail client :)
<tuxbrain> Jay7: just joking :P
<zrafa> I have asked for examples about which applications users would like to run (with more ram).. No many answers
<rjeffries> so here's thedeal with RAM the current SOC only talks to static RAM as werner has said it costs ,mor ethan DRAM
<zrafa> if the screen is 320x240.. which applications we would run with 512MB of ram and 320x240?
<Jay7> for 320x240 64Mb is enough :)
<rjeffries> xrafa I would think more programs running at same tiem, e.g.. conoile and itehr apps
<Jay7> for 640x480 128Mb is minimum
<tuxbrain> zrafa obious answer: we need higher resolution for that 512 RAM :P
<wpwrak> 128 MB may already be hard. with SDR SDRAM, the best price point may be around 64 MB. with DDR SDRAM, 128 MB would be better. but the 4720/4740 doesn't support DDR.
<rjeffries> can we get VGA resolution on a reasobly priced LCD
<Ornotermes> wpwrak: one usb port is a good thing, several ports would accept even more hardware extensions
<zrafa> Jay7: yeah.. 64MB and 320x240 is nice.. but still we need use cases
<wpwrak> rjeffries: no. it's not SRAM vs. DRAM. it's SDR SDRAM vs. DDR SDRAM ;-)
<zrafa> Jay7: tell me some software you can not run on nn now
<Jay7> zrafa: opie + browser?
<Jay7> or fbreader
<wpwrak> rjeffries: as time goes by, the number of qualifiers increases ;-)
<zrafa> can not you run that?
<Jay7> with big book opened
<Jay7> or may be some pdf
<rjeffries> nods and realizes he was WRONG
<Jay7> but..
<wpwrak> zrafa: don't worry ... as soon as we have networking, someone will want firefox :)
<Jay7> zrafa: I see your point now :)
<tuxbrain> will want firefox
<wpwrak> Ornotermes: err yes, but where do the connectors go ? :)
<rjeffries> when we get 6LoWpam this baby can go many news ways, some can generate high unit volumes
<Ornotermes> maybe it would be practical to let some onboard hardware use USB
<wpwrak> Ornotermes: urgh. USB is power-hungry.
<rjeffries> wpwrak my question was NOT assuming a board that fits inNN case
<tuxbrain> with java and flash and vrml rendering plugin :P
<zrafa> haha
<Ornotermes> wpwrak: the bus it self or the devices that use usb?
<rjeffries> who has watched that 6LoWpan video? That technology will be VERY widely used
<wpwrak> Ornotermes: well, kinda both. when the device is active, you have a lot of polling.
<tuxbrain> what video?
<zrafa> tuxbrain: btw, Blizzard was able to build the Java ME environment for nn.. and he is using that on latest jlime.com images.. No idea if you still have future buyers who want that
<wpwrak> tuxbrain: oh, i have no doubts people will ask for plugins just minutes after you give them firefox ;-)
<Ornotermes> an internal device that use say 3.3V could use the main supply instead of its own 5V -> 3.3V regulator
<rjeffries> a small peratble device, van be larger than NN that supports 6LoWpan at attractive price (does NOt have to be $100 USD, maybe $200 USD) will sell like gangbusters
<Ornotermes> that would be a little better
<rjeffries> Wolf would need to fine dbiiger suppliers and factores
<wpwrak> Ornotermes: that depends ... some usb-powered devices don't have that option. but which internal device do you think should use USB ?
<rjeffries> s/pertable/portable
<rjeffries> s/dbiiger/bigger
<Ornotermes> keyboard maybe, would free up a lot of IO
<roh> hm. you know that something like a thinkpad x120e is also only 400$? and lots of 10" atom class computers for 270E
<tuxbrain> rjeffries: I can become as big as market demands :)
<wpwrak> tuxbrain: (roh found it)
<wpwrak> Ornotermes: (kbd) naw, then you need another controller for that. you might as well use SPI then.
<rjeffries> thinks Tux must be so skiny now, but soon, a world clss Sumo wrestler
<wpwrak> Ornotermes: USB makes sense for a bit larger devices. like netbooks. there you have more wiggle room
<rjeffries> <wpwrak> I ythink formfactor larger than BEN but smaller than netbook that is copyleft and has right feature set could be ahit
<wpwrak> anyway .. i need to get raw material for some ice cream research ...
<rjeffries> <wprak> have you conssidered designing in a keyboard controller to free precious GOIOs
<rjeffries> I though the ectricity was out werner
<wpwrak> rjeffries: phew. yet another product line. besides, it has been tried by psion. not a great success. i think the tablets will eat you for breakfast if you try to compete there.
<rjeffries> with no AC your ice cream will melt in a heartbeat
<rjeffries> either there is a market for coplylefty very open of not
<wpwrak> rjeffries: (kbd) no, i want a cpu that makes more i/os available. problem solved ;-) we're not in real-life communism, where you design your country to run on scarcity :)
<rjeffries> you ar eright marketplace is so fumm of cool new shit
<tuxbrain> is searching for another so not high class meals this year to survive but will still invest in caviar
<zrafa> wpwrak: (video guy) do you know where is he from ?
<wpwrak> rjeffries: so far, the fridge still maintained < 0 C through all those messes. that isolation lasts a good while. you'd be surprised.
<rjeffries> Sweden I think. he wrote the book on 6LoWpan
<wpwrak> zrafa: no. maybe UK, but i'm not so good at detecting dialects.
<rjeffries> don't let chatting on irc come between you and your ice cream. you deserve it
<wpwrak> indeed :) afk for a bit
<rjeffries> thank god he is not from Argintina. Becaus if we put him and wpwrak in the same town, watch out
<zrafa> rjeffries: he has a very clear english for me. Sometimes I have to do a big effort to understand.. no with this guy
<Traceig> hello
<Traceig> if i have ATX PSU
<Traceig> with 20+ 4 pin
<Traceig> do i plug that 4 pin for CPU
<rjeffries> wrong channel Traceig sorry
<Traceig> oh,sorry
<Traceig> bye then :)
<rjeffries> <zrafa> Agree, he is also a very good presenter IMO
<Jay7> they are coming on -hardware part seems :)
<rjeffries> nods
<wpwrak> okay. i;ll tempt murphy again and switch on the soldering iron ...
<tuxbrain> I have seen the video.... wpwrak move you ass and finish that atben thing damn it! :P
<rjeffries> back from lunch
<rjeffries> now w esee tux getting all excited abur 6LoWpan. He is one smart cookie
<rjeffries> s /w esee/we see/
<tuxbrain> I see this intersting link about there is also a 6LowPan kernel driver http://www.nanork.org/wiki/6LoWPAN-installation
<tuxbrain> but I dont find any further information on this sixlowpan.ko module?
<wpwrak> tuxbrain: (finish) working towards it :) takes about half an hour to solder the chips on atben. 20-30' to place the vias. haven't timed soldering the vias, testing, etc.
<wpwrak> tuxbrain: for atusb, add another 30' for the larger quantity of components. there are also more vias, which probably means a total of 30' more, too.
<wpwrak> tuxbrain: and of course, making the boards takes time, too. the goal is to have about 5-6 of each. 1-2 sets for me, 2 sets for adam, one set for roh, and one for richard.
<tuxbrain> will wipe wolfgangs as to hurry up to subtitute you with adams toys once this jewel works
<wpwrak> (nano-rk) looks interesting. one thing to do is to find out where the most "official" ieee 802.15.4 and 6lowpan code really lives. the linux-zigbee project is eerily silent.
<tuxbrain> as->ass
<wpwrak> "wipe wolfgang's ass" ? hmm, you may want to look that up :)
<tuxbrain> yep, it only mentioned 6lowpan in one page but I don't see any other extra info
<wpwrak> roh: oh, and as i was strolling through the local diy store, killing time while i had no power anyway, i found non-corrosive silicone. seems that solvent in the usual adhesive/sealant attacks metals.
<roh> uuuh
<wpwrak> roh: (well, a little. can't be too bad, since they recommend it for metals, too)
<wpwrak> roh: but probably enough that you don't want it on your pcb :)
<wpwrak> soldering the vias, 15', cutting them, cleaning, and non-functional testing (connectivity, idle current, clock out), another 15'
<wpwrak> so that's ... 1.5 hours per atben starting with the pcb ready and when i don't make any mistakes. (and have power ;-)
<roh> wpwrak: hrhr
<roh> yeah.. its impressive how much time simple things need
<zrafa> roh: so those things are not simple at all then :)
<wpwrak> roh: the large ground zones and all the (RF) vias are a bit of a pain. otherwise, a board of that size should take maybe half an hour to solder and check.
<zrafa> 1.5 hours plus make time to do pcb .. without any mistakes.. that is a lot if it is a simple thing
<roh> zrafa not neccessary. simple doesnt mean fast
<roh> on the contrary.. often things get much simpler as soon as one takes 'as fast as possible' out of focus
<wpwrak> roh: oh yes .. i have an example for *that* ... lemme take a picture :)
<zrafa> roh: yeah, simple does not mean fast.. but it depends against something to measure if it is simple or not... we could say .. if it takes time then it is no so simple.. or something like that, as reference.
<zrafa> Of course, maybe time to make it is not the best thing to measure if it is simple
<wpwrak> (and no, i won't try to find out if it works anyway ;-)
<roh> hrhr
<steve|m> .oO(you need a phillips screwdriver to insert batteries in a kids toy?!) (girltech im-me)
<wpwrak> that's the latest (hopefully final) version
<wpwrak> steve|m: these girls today ...
<steve|m> like to.. screw?
<roh> steve|m: how much money should i wire you? 20E?
<wpwrak> ;-)))
<steve|m> roh: damn, in which channel did I post the price I calculated? but anyway, it was around 20¬.. is fin
<wpwrak> now .. let's try a bit of creative ice-cream abuse for a change
<roh> steve|m: hm.. osmocom?
<roh> meh. egypt just killed the internet for endusers.
<roh> ~15minutes ago.
<steve|m> roh: recalculated it.. 18,26¬ ;)
<roh> including you shipping it?
<steve|m> yes
<roh> ok. will send you 19
<steve|m> (32,62 + 3,90) / 2
<Jay7> wpwrak: is atben sdio-wifi module?
<Jay7> tries to understand
<tuxbrain> nice pics dude
<tuxbrain> wpwrak: atben 8:10 6lowpan module :)
<tuxbrain> ups that was intended to Jay7 , wpwrak already knows :P
<Jay7> m? :)
<Jay7> ah
<Jay7> well.. now I should read about 6lowpan :)
<tuxbrain> I recomend you to watch this video http://portal.sensinode.com/downloads/6LoWPAN-seminar.mp4
<tuxbrain> or I think we have to start calling THE video
<steve|m> roh: the USB stick that comes with it has a CY7 PSoC (which everybode is desoldering).. let's see if they protected their firmware better than reinerSCT ;)
<Jay7> I've read wikipedia :)
<roh> :)
<tuxbrain> well dudes, was a pleasure be online again , but is time to sleep here
<tuxbrain> big hugs to you all, yes ron for you too :P
<Jay7> good idea
<Jay7> gone sleep too
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: saldly i saw the last project from Carlos is a basic-stamtp like board based on a freescale procesor.. even more sad, i saw libre word in that, but how come?? he know milkymist exits.. anyway... :(
<xMff> oh, I just seen the plplot stuff on the list, thats nice
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: yea, he really seems to go in a different direction
<roh> kristianpaul: there are many definitions for libre
<roh> and fpga are not cheap. you can get basically all soc i know of cheaper than a fpga which could run even a good part of the same
<roh> as long as the datasheets are free and complete and or one has complete foss drivers for something i think we can also speak of open hw.
<roh> i dont want to suggest the free soc idea is bad. on the contrary. but one needs to see whats the goal of a specific board/project and what makes one get there in feasible time and money
<roh> nanonote also has a 'done' soc.
<roh> moko had too.. sometimes i wonder if oem-ing something in the price and power range of this: would make any sense. http://www.pollin.de/shop/dt/OTU4ODkyOTk-/Computer_und_Zubehoer/Hardware/Notebooks_Netbooks_Tablets/Tablet_PC_mit_Android_Betriebssystem_ARCHOS_7.html