<wpwrak>
lekernel: good old uli ... one of the reasons why glibc has been forked
<wpwrak>
lekernel: well, "forked". they still track glibc, so technically, it's not a fork ;-) http://www.eglibc.org/faq
<kristianpaul>
he dash vs bash issues :-)
<lekernel>
that's not the point, the point is that the libc doesn't have to dictate a particular shell
<lekernel>
another example of GNU imperialism, and then they blame Microsoft for the same thing
<wpwrak>
lekernel: are you using glibc or eglibc ? in the former case, i'd strongly suggest to consider switching.
<wpwrak>
lekernel: there was also a connection with the binutils. in some cases, you can get "bad" binutils if you use the official (Uli) versions.
<lekernel>
is there any non-GNU replacement for those binutils btw?
<lekernel>
for gcc there's llvm, which is good
<lekernel>
but it still uses the gnu assembler and linker :(
<kristianpaul>
GNU is whole OS, remenber that ;-)
<kristianpaul>
well, you can call it imperialism
<wpwrak>
lekernel: I don't know of any alternative to binutils
<lekernel>
mh... me neither... again something that would need to be addressed
<lekernel>
the binutils code quality isn't much better than gcc's
<wpwrak>
lekernel: gnu coding style per se sucks :)
<kristianpaul>
nah, and i was reading their codying style guide :/
<lekernel>
I didn't know they had a coding style guide
<lekernel>
found it, and the first thing I read is:
<lekernel>
Please dont use win as an abbreviation for Microsoft Windows in GNU software or documentation. In hacker terminology, calling something a win is a form of praise. If you wish to praise Microsoft Windows when speaking on your own, by all means do so, but not in GNU software
<lekernel>
stupid...
<wpwrak>
lekernel: the first thing you read is the trademarks section ? ;-)
<lekernel>
well, they put it at the beginning
<lekernel>
1 About the GNU Coding Standards
<lekernel>
2 Keeping Free Software Free
<lekernel>
2.1 Referring to Proprietary Programs
<lekernel>
2.2 Accepting Contributions
<lekernel>
2.3 Trademarks
<wpwrak>
it's just bait ;-)
<lekernel>
i'm sure they enforce it
<wpwrak>
lekernel: when was the last time you saw a troll who didn't enjoy getting challenged ? ;-)
<wpwrak>
i beaded VDD and also doubled the bypassing, with no effect at all
<wpwrak>
what did improve things a little was changing the clock voltage divider circuit
<wpwrak>
note that the rework-20110113 series is tethered. some of my rework made the board too thick to go into a ben.
<wpwrak>
i'm now reworking it to make it thin again, so that i can see if the improvements remain when connecting to a regular ben.
<wpwrak>
some of the measurements suggest that a "full" ben may add some gremlins to the mix, compared to the bare pcb. may be the lcm.
<DocScrutinizer>
yep
<DocScrutinizer>
you are fully aware about the principles I guess. Meassure the delta-f between center and sideband peak and you got the AM signal's frequency
<DocScrutinizer>
for FM it's much harder to calculate and I don't really understand how to do that. I also never understood how to use those FM sythesis keyboards (DX-7 ?)
<wpwrak>
i'm more concerned about the "mountain" for now. i've made the sidebands go away once by adding a small bypass to the rf feed line.
<wpwrak>
so i have about +/- 1 MHz of fairly persistent noise.
<DocScrutinizer>
What I'd do is: use a usual needle (or 1"/25mm wire), extend it with a non-conductive handle of at least 30cm so you can hold it without interfering with the electrical properties. Then touch all pins of your circuit, and whatch noise floor while you do that
<wpwrak>
does the needle connect to anything ?
<DocScrutinizer>
nope
<DocScrutinizer>
just a small "antenna" to catch the noise of your environment
<DocScrutinizer>
I guess you'll find some pins that are massively susceptible to this kind of manipulation (OSC-IN ?). It's worth to have a closer look to those details in your design, maybe use a better trace layout etc for those pins.
<DocScrutinizer>
Also I read to tried to do something to VDD by adding a 1uF. Probably worthless, better add a 1nF, maybe even several. Try different locations to add. Try a bead in VDD
<DocScrutinizer>
one thing that might give you dispair though is the fact that cheap cheesy TX circuits are susceptible to cating up noise *by the antenna*
<wpwrak>
i tried a VDD bead already. didn't do anything.
<DocScrutinizer>
there's not much you could possibly do in that case, except reducing ambient noise (shield converters, e.g. of LCD backlight, etc)
<DocScrutinizer>
if you want you may toss over the URLs to schematics pdf, and layout pdf
<wpwrak>
the antenna is grounded for now. (when i go tethered, i cut the antenna a bit and solder an U.FL connector that grounds the antenna)
<wpwrak>
now that i changed the clock divider. it's now 5.6 k : 1 k resistive, followed by 1 nF DC block.
<wpwrak>
i tested the parameter sensitivity of the DC block - 10 pF and 100 nF yield basically identical results.
<DocScrutinizer>
aaah, I seem like recalling there were problems back in good ole' '76 with CB (27MHz), the antenna when detuned could cause the TX power drivers of the walkietalkie to emits all kinds of nasty sideband and harmonics
<wpwrak>
also, dropping the resistive pair by one order of magniture (560 R:100 R) doesn't change the result.
<wpwrak>
the 201101013 series eliminates the antenna from the equation :) it all goes straight to the USRP2. well, through a 10 dB attenuator. don't want to fry the LNA :)
<wpwrak>
(although it's probably fine with the meager 3 dBm i can throw at it)
<DocScrutinizer>
werner, are you *sure* the AT86RF231 doesn't have an always-modulated RF signal? like filling in soem padding when no data is transmitted
<wpwrak>
it's in "continuous wave" test mode
<wpwrak>
besides, the "row 3" result, with 40 dB separation, is with the same chip
<DocScrutinizer>
CW doesn't necessarily mean no modulation
<DocScrutinizer>
aah, ok
<wpwrak>
now .. let's try joerg's bad finger ...
<DocScrutinizer>
hehe
<wpwrak>
touching XTAL1 directly crashes the chip. well, i had that before with the scope probe.
<DocScrutinizer>
don't stab anything :-P
<DocScrutinizer>
YAY
<wpwrak>
touching before the blocking cap raises the noise beyond +/- 1 MHz by about 5-10 dB but doesn't affect the central hill.
<DocScrutinizer>
expected
<DocScrutinizer>
the blocking cap would obviously effectively filter out oise <1MHz
<DocScrutinizer>
noise*
<wpwrak>
maybe .. don't know the input impedance of XTAL1
<wpwrak>
but the more it filters, the better ;-)
<wpwrak>
touching VDD doesn't seem to have much of an effect. btw, neither does my body hovering some 10-20 cm over the circuit
<DocScrutinizer>
aaah, always hard to follow what you do, unless given component names. The whole thing is externally clocked? Yuck! Check that clock for jitter and noise. Consider using a local xtal instead, even if only for ruling out it's the ext clck that is polluted
<wpwrak>
btw, the sidebands vary by around 5 dB while the "hill" remains constant most of the time. sometimes everything jumps, but that may be some wlan again (i've shut down mine)
<wpwrak>
yes, local xtal will be the next thing to try. the USB boards (row 1-3) all have a crystal.
<wpwrak>
of course, a crystal is something i'd really love not to have on the bom :)
<wpwrak>
besides, it would make the board larger. yet another reason to dislike it.
<DocScrutinizer>
using external clocks for TX is usually a bad idea, unless you have a really high quality known good master clock generator somewhere in your circuit
<wpwrak>
the ben's clock should be accurate enough. also, at accutracy of at least the long-term frequency (measured over minutes) is more than sufficient
<DocScrutinizer>
if you must use this external clock, then FILTER it, use R-C bandpass of 3rd order, use L-C tuned to the freq of clock
<DocScrutinizer>
the long cables and external gear introduced lots of noise
<wpwrak>
yup. if we discount the sidebands really close to the center, then the "hill" dropped by 5-10 dB, though. but i'm not sure if this is a meaningful interpretation.
<DocScrutinizer>
It's quite obvious now: you need a better clock
<wpwrak>
i tried to find any disagreement between the external clock input and the transceiver's clock output (it can output the divided input clock), but that wasn't very conclusive because i couldn't get a good trigger
<wpwrak>
now, what would be the best way to go about this ?
<wpwrak>
(poking around some more with your "bad finger". nothing really responds to it)
<DocScrutinizer>
get an xtal :-D
<wpwrak>
grmbl
<DocScrutinizer>
I know I know
<wpwrak>
xtal doesn't convey the cool simplicity i'm after
<wpwrak>
any simple LC filter that could help ? right now, i have 1 C and 2 R in the clock path. i should be able to add 2 more components.
<wpwrak>
maybe 3 if i really squeeze things.
<wpwrak>
of course, if the filter does the DC blocking too, that's one more "free" component
<DocScrutinizer>
L-C with high Q, loosely coupled to clock source, might do. Have fun tuning it ;-D
<DocScrutinizer>
That's beyond my competences
<wpwrak>
grr :)
<wpwrak>
that would be a bandpass then ?
<DocScrutinizer>
that would be an L-C parallel resonator tuned to the 16MHz it shall provide, with high Q, means it shall keep oscillating for >> 1/1Mhz, i.e. 50% of sine amplitude @ 16MHz after nn microseconds. Maybe undampened by feedback of XTAL2 to the LC with attenuation so it just doesn't start oscillating itself
<DocScrutinizer>
then gently feed energy from external clock, so an oscillation builds up after several nn microseconds
<DocScrutinizer>
muuch more icky to design, to tune, to debug. And BOM won't get any nicer
<DocScrutinizer>
compared to a cheap XTAL
<wpwrak>
there are no xtals that are small and cheap :-(
<DocScrutinizer>
umm
<DocScrutinizer>
pries open his BT usb stick
<wpwrak>
even the 3.2 x 2.5 xtal i'm using is still around usd 0.6 @ 100
<wpwrak>
you have about twice the number of components i can comfortably fit :-(
<DocScrutinizer>
well, but then my circuit is twice as good :-D
<DocScrutinizer>
you may get away with a single RC for high and low
<wpwrak>
(single RC for high/low) how's that ?
<DocScrutinizer>
or one RC for lowpass and 2 RC for highpass
<DocScrutinizer>
depends on how bad your clock is contaminated. And nota bene R-C filters won't fix jitter
<wpwrak>
i think i'll try RC+RC. that still looks reasonable. for anything more complex, i'd basically poke around blindly, because any measurement would be likely to derail things
<wpwrak>
how wide should i make the pass band ?
<DocScrutinizer>
also consider finding a bead that has a resonance peak @16MHz
<DocScrutinizer>
(wide) -0
<wpwrak>
so far, beads have done absolutely nothing. (don't have a large choice of them, though)
<DocScrutinizer>
I have a complete component book, with maybe 200 different breed
<DocScrutinizer>
I'l have a look
<DocScrutinizer>
placing such a bead instead of R2 in your link above could increase filter quality noticably
<wpwrak>
the beads i have are (digi-key number) 587-1866-1-nd, 587-2419-1-nd, and 587-1926-1-nd. plus a few 490-4012-1-nd arrays.
<DocScrutinizer>
you'd calculate with R2 = bead's off-resonance impedance
<wpwrak>
hmm, that's usually something very close to 0 Ohm
<wpwrak>
i understand what you're saying. not sure about that :)
<wpwrak>
let's say BKP1005HS330. that one has 33 Ohm at 100 MHz. close to 0 Ohm at DC. or would i use the impedance at the clock frequency, 16 MHz ? that would be something like 15-20 Ohm.
<wpwrak>
or maybe the BK1608HM601, with 600 Ohm at 100 MHz ?
<DocScrutinizer>
nah, beads usually have something like 33R or 100R, for AC. DC isn't relevant here
<wpwrak>
but isn't that the resonance impedance ?
<DocScrutinizer>
alas all my FBM-11 beads here have a peak next 100MHz, or maybe 30MHz (one of them)
<DocScrutinizer>
none has a usable characteristics for 16MHz
<wpwrak>
yup, here too
<DocScrutinizer>
FBM-11-321611-202: R @16MHz: ~1000R,  @10:500R,  @40:2700, @2:~10..50 (too small on this diagram)
<wpwrak>
not from digi-key, i suppose ?
<wpwrak>
at least i can't see it there
<DocScrutinizer>
R(DC): 1.2ohm;Â Â I(DC):100mA; size: 3.2*1.6*1.1mm
<DocScrutinizer>
Richco
<wpwrak>
(3.2*1.6 mm) does this come with a SUV for transportation ? ;-)
<wpwrak>
wow. 1206. and i was cursing those bulky 0603 beads :)
<wpwrak>
naw, that's waaaay to big.
<wpwrak>
s/to/too/
<DocScrutinizer>
you won't get magic ferrite
<DocScrutinizer>
anyway, I guess I can't help any better
<DocScrutinizer>
as mentioned above, that's way beyond my competence
<DocScrutinizer>
good luck
<wpwrak>
small inductors would be an option
<wpwrak>
beads don't seem to fit well in general. i guess for such special needs, one would use a T or Pi filter instead of a bead.
<wpwrak>
well perhaps just RC then. if that doesn't work, then with a bloody crystal.
<wpwrak>
for RC, how large a pass band would you recommend ? or should i define it in terms of the attenuation of the clock frequency ?
<wpwrak>
and pass band symmetric around the clock frequency ?
<DocScrutinizer>
I'd guess you want especially low freq cutoff. I don't expect freq>16MHz to introduce much noise relevant for clock generation. So calculate R-C for -6dB @ 16MHz (i.e f0 >clock). For the lowpass you probably are free to choose anything that does a semidecent job at attenuating harmonics
<DocScrutinizer>
I'd even consider a 2nd order highpass raher than a bandpass, with a given number of components
<DocScrutinizer>
but as mentioned before, all that won't help to kill jitter
<DocScrutinizer>
jitter in turn will cause FM, which easily creates the sidebands you see
<wpwrak>
a high-pass may at least kill jitter caused by noise riding on the signal and pushing the edges
<DocScrutinizer>
yes
<DocScrutinizer>
that's the idea
<wpwrak>
hmm, the noise is only about +/- 1 MHz
<DocScrutinizer>
so expect your noise on clock being in same freq range
<wpwrak>
of course, that's after the clock input circuit and after the PLL. cause and effect are a bit distant here ...
<DocScrutinizer>
though maybe not, it's a complex circuit, including a PLL to upscale clock I guess
<wpwrak>
yep :)
<DocScrutinizer>
does the PLL have any external components? like R, C?
<wpwrak>
nope. it's all inside
<DocScrutinizer>
hmm nope
<DocScrutinizer>
the worse effect you'll see of any jitter
<wpwrak>
actually .. if i go for -7.5 dB at 16 MHz, then i don't need a divider. one component saved :)
<DocScrutinizer>
the PLL probably is *very* fast, and each single 16MHz clock edge with a tiny bit of jitter causing massive FM noise on TX
<wpwrak>
let's just hope the ben doesn't jitter much :)
<DocScrutinizer>
ooh, btw: werner, you are feeding the clock via a long cable, from mainboard to atusd? That probably won't pan out anyway, without using symmetric feed and a balun at both ends
<wpwrak>
about 7 cm in total
<wpwrak>
(cpu to transceiver)
<wpwrak>
my board sits in the uSD slot
<DocScrutinizer>
might work
<DocScrutinizer>
keep trace pseudo-symmetric to a parallel ground though
<DocScrutinizer>
and of course impedance tuned
<DocScrutinizer>
you don't want any ringing and/or standing waves on that line
<DocScrutinizer>
plus you want it properly shielded, also against crosstalk from traces next to it
<wpwrak>
i have no control over what's going on in the ben ...
<wpwrak>
SD clock is between the power lines, so this helps
<DocScrutinizer>
that might be a problem then, disqualifying this clock signal for use as a TX source, with high requirements for S/N and jitter free
<DocScrutinizer>
SD clock? Hell! that's by design not meant to be jitter free
<DocScrutinizer>
honestly, go for XTAL
<DocScrutinizer>
I thought you're using a master clock source, like CPU XTAL or sth
<DocScrutinizer>
not something generated in a SD card interface, and never meant to be jitter free or anything you'd want to see for TX clock source
<wpwrak>
why would the SD clock have more jitter than the master clock it's derived from ?
<wpwrak>
it's all just dividers
<DocScrutinizer>
because there are lots of dividers and switches and latches and whatnot in between
<DocScrutinizer>
all of those not properly shielded in-chip, as jitter free never been a design parameter for that clock
<wpwrak>
hmm, i would naively assume that a divider by itself is fairly jitter-free
<DocScrutinizer>
and a devider isn'r per se jitter free
<wpwrak>
shielding, i don't know, of course
<wpwrak>
but then, considering that beading the clock didn't make any difference, it seems that it's not overly dirty
<DocScrutinizer>
nope, a divider may count up to a limit, then reset. The reset for sure may have diferent properties with signal delay than the normal increment. Just as one simple example of imanent jitter
<DocScrutinizer>
then there's also crosstalk jitter
<wpwrak>
(reset) sure, but the output is always the reset, never the increment
<wpwrak>
(well, never the increment-sans-reset)
<DocScrutinizer>
the output might even be latched by a completely unrelated clock
<DocScrutinizer>
honestly, you can't assume any quality regarding jitter whatsoever, from a storage or similar clock
<wpwrak>
big maybe. usually the whole clock tree is derived from the same source. of course, there may be fun effects if different paths merge
<DocScrutinizer>
it's digital domain, while your TX clock basically is analog domain
<wpwrak>
well .. i'll try my luck with the rc bandpass. if it works, praise to ingenic's diligent engineers :) if not, all hail our crystalline savior ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
requirements for digital are just-in-time, and correct sequence aka propagation delay. Requirements for analog are amplitude and signal waveform stability, jitter free, and low freq error
<wpwrak>
well, it's a digital output. so if the signal driving it isn't too crazy, it would have a clean waveform. this is a simple chip, so i wouldn't expect a lot of fancy detours that could introduce problems. but let's see ...
<wpwrak>
100 pF, 68 Ohm, 150 Ohm, 100 pF, from left to right, should yield reasonable results
<wpwrak>
do these values sound appropriate or should i aim for entirely different values ? (still need to do the analytical verification)
<DocScrutinizer>
that's even starting at such simple things like chip internal VDD, which is the digital VDD for this output, incl all the internally generated noise on it. For a proper external clock generator you'd include a choke and a buffer C to decouple the clock VDD from rest of circuit, as on a clock with high requirements on jitter etc you don't tolerated the typical digital amplitude variations (high: 0.7..1.0 * VDD; low: GND - 0.7V .. 0.3 *
<DocScrutinizer>
VDD))
<DocScrutinizer>
(R, C) hmm, sounds reasonable. Just make sure your input and output impedances are way below (in) rsp above (out) those values
<wpwrak>
out, no problem. for input, i actually tried to be reasonably close to what i expect the driver's impedance. but lemme check if anything is specified ...
<DocScrutinizer>
or, alternatively, include any known impedance into your calculation
<wpwrak>
ssd clock is specified at 4 mA .. that's ...
<wpwrak>
Ioh = 10.2 mA (typ), Voh = 2.4 V, i.e., a 900 mV drop, so Ron = 88.2 Ohm. hmm.
<wpwrak>
you said way below. let's make my resistor a bit larger then ...
<wpwrak>
it likes to play these little games. not sure what's happening. at least now i know that i should always reset it before starting any measurements. before figuring out that part, i had been chasing some 20 dB mystery differences for days ...
<DocScrutinizer>
calculate your highpass so it will work with and without a R of (here) 88.2R in series to C1
<wpwrak>
yeah, looks good. peak shifts a little bit to lower frequencies, but not excessively. maybe 1-2 MHz.
<wpwrak>
naw, more. 3-4 MHz. hard to read those logarithmic diagrams :)
<wpwrak>
anyway, it's flat up there. so not a big change. and the rest stays pretty much the same.
<DocScrutinizer>
time for 12648430
<wpwrak>
nice :)
<wpwrak>
here, it's time for laundry-in and trash-out. then a bit of food, rework, and then we'll see whether it's champagne or a bottle of cheap booze :)
<steve|m>
I'd rather stick with some 48879
<wpwrak>
steve|m: GOOD choice ! ;-)
<wpwrak>
plus 720942 :)
<DocScrutinizer>
48879, hmm yummy
<steve|m>
I once picked vid/pid 0xB00D 0xC0DE for an usb bootloader ;)
<steve|m>
but 0xBOO7 0xL04D is nice, too :)
<qbject>
Hi all.
<qbject>
Has anyone here used Atanua or similar logic simulator software?
<wpwrak>
thanks steve|m for the idea :)
<qbject>
wpwrak: do you know of a FOSS way for me to put virtual logic circuits together and test them without learning verilog?
<wolfspraul>
qbject: you may want to look through the (free) tools assembled in the fedora electronic lab
<wpwrak>
qbject: (logic circuits) i don't know much about these. i use qucs fairly extensively to simulate analog circuits, though. it should also be able to do digital.
<qbject>
wolfspraul: are you not sleeping any more?
<wolfspraul>
I'm in Germany right now, returning to China in a few days though.
<qbject>
wpwrak: Also sweet. As long as it can do the usual gates, I'll be good.
<qbject>
wolfspraul: Ahh, cool. Good trip?
<wolfspraul>
qbject: to Germany? yes sure. Good 27c3 conference, good new contacts in Berlin.
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: either your jitter theory has indeed some merit or the time-space continuum simply refuses to be bent more than 30 dB out of shape around the ben
<wpwrak>
next stop: crystal. the moment of truth.
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: in any case, thanks a lot for your help ! it's also reassuring to know that i didn't miss anything obvious elsewhere.
<qbject>
wolfspraul: sounds like an amazing get-together.
<roh>
ola werner
<roh>
wpwrak: what are you trying to do? (bend time?)
<wpwrak>
roh: naw, the idea is to get the wpan stuff to work on the ben reusing the ben's clock (and crystal)
<wpwrak>
roh: unfortunately, i found out that there's a fair bit of noise and that noise seems to come from the clock.
<wpwrak>
roh: alas, i can't tell with certainty, also due to equipment limitations. the next iteration should bring more clarity. if a board with a crystal has the same noise pattern, then the noise comes from somewhere else. if not, then we have the culprit.
<wpwrak>
roh: at the same time, the USB-based board looks good. i haven't done any BER testing yet, but the spectrum and rssi patterns all look healthy.
<roh>
nice
<roh>
dont overoptimize ;)
<wpwrak>
roh: BER is probably also the only thing that's easy to check for production testing.
<roh>
meaning.. is using another crystal that bad for you?
<wpwrak>
roh: ah, i don't like crystals. also, the crystal makes the thing bigger.
<wpwrak>
roh: the price difference is negligible for the small quantities we're looking at at the moment. but still, it's nice to make the best of it.
<roh>
hehe.. as long as the part exists its good and easy
<roh>
i failed at buying black screws
<roh>
.s
<roh>
now ive ordered the ST2.2 metal screws in 'blank, zinc' since i can only buy sizes ST2.9 from upwards in black
<wpwrak>
you can always paint them :)
<wpwrak>
a can of epoxy paint goes a long way :)
<roh>
naah. that scratches of and sticks into the small places where you would like to apply the screwdriver ;)
<roh>
the only proper way to color screws seems to be galvanisation
<wpwrak>
(small places) i think the screwdriver will just win :)
<wpwrak>
but yes, the stuff comes off
<wolfspraul>
roh: you there?
<wolfspraul>
just a heads up, you know I ordered 10 violet cases from you, so that's moving...
<wolfspraul>
but I wanted to let you know I am thinking about rc3, and my current plan is maybe 80 units
<wpwrak>
roh: all sleep has been cancelled until easter :)
<wolfspraul>
so that would mean another 80 violet cases. but that's later. don't order now, I will ponder some more.
<wolfspraul>
no no, just way in advance. just so you've heard that number already. 80.
<wolfspraul>
it will be between 50 and 100, I am leaning towards 80 now.
<wolfspraul>
and I want cases for all of them, and only offer fully assembled units.
<wolfspraul>
for cheap things like screws and such you can already source 100 sets, if that even makes any significant price difference.
<wolfspraul>
but for the more expensive stuff, don't source yet, I will only order those 80 in a month or so, if all goes well.
<wolfspraul>
let's do the next 10 first :-)
<kristianpaul>
wow 80 !
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: ah yeah, better don't ask. hardware is painful.
<wolfspraul>
once you start, you just have to continue and slowly increase the volume.
<kristianpaul>
that applied to then Ben Nanonote as well?
<wolfspraul>
I have no choice but to pull forward, make a complete product out of it (case, accessories, certification, box, manual, etc).
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, even more so
<wolfspraul>
and unless I have 50 or so in stock, it makes no sense to do a launch
<wolfspraul>
otherwise the launch press release goes out, some media pick it up, but I cannot deliver
<wpwrak>
even 50 isn't a lot :)
<wolfspraul>
of course if nobody picks it up, and I have no marketing power to sell them, I get stuck with all the junk
<wpwrak>
better delete that from the logs ;-)
<kristianpaul>
did you made a launh for the ben nanonote?
<wolfspraul>
if I sell for 499 USD finding 50 actual paying customers is a nice achievement
<wolfspraul>
I'm not deleting any of this from the logs.
<wpwrak>
(just kidding)
<wolfspraul>
I'm just saying I cannot make a launch if I have 10 in stock.
<wolfspraul>
it all makes no sense, then I am wasting my time, and the chance to say 'new product launched', and cannot deliver.
<wolfspraul>
it's all risky
<kristianpaul>
I remenber in 2009 i read the first blog post about it, but then the first 1000 units, did i miss the launch?
<Jay7>
should consider about selling Milkymist here :)
<wolfspraul>
Jay7: a potential distributor? YAY!
<Jay7>
but I don't know our custom laws :(
<wolfspraul>
ah, that was Russia, right?
<kristianpaul>
Jay7: call then ! :-)
<Jay7>
our laws are totally crazy..
<Jay7>
wolfspraul: yeah
<wpwrak>
mm1 is tricky because there's no way of telling what will stick. and of course, the amount of money available for gambling is limited.
<wolfspraul>
well I read about the great new Russian open source plan
<Jay7>
I'll ask some people
<wolfspraul>
so you can email Vladimir directly ask for import permission :-)
<Jay7>
wolfspraul: they just heating the air
<Jay7>
no real move
<Jay7>
it's ok here
<wpwrak>
Jay7: what's the problem with customs actually ? are they just difficult or is it all a question of bribes ?
<wolfspraul>
Jay7: if you are serious about this idea, you should get one m1 asap, to learn about the product, show it to potential customers, etc.
<wolfspraul>
I still have 5 from the rc2 run right now, and I am holding them back a little for people who are really serious about the future, distributors, contributors, etc.
<Jay7>
wpwrak: I know nothing about need to certify this device to sell here
<wolfspraul>
so I would very much like to sell you one :-)
<Jay7>
and nothing about custom fee for resellers
<wpwrak>
Jay7: so it's not just customs. i see.
<kristianpaul>
Jay7: there is ebay in russia?
<wolfspraul>
I don't think certification is a problem, even now we already know we meet the CE and FCC criteria.
<wolfspraul>
to Russia, we would need to be careful about the power adapter
<wolfspraul>
it's always the same, we just have to start and learn
<Jay7>
wolfspraul: russia is using euro power plugs
<Jay7>
so shouldn't be a problem :)
<wolfspraul>
Jay7: email me, then we find a way to pay and ship to you.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (power) also argentina, at least if doing it "above the table"
<Jay7>
wolfspraul: I'll consider lawyer before :)
<wolfspraul>
you should get a full unit including case, I don't have all parts in one place right now but we will find a way to pull it off.
<Jay7>
wait till next week
<wolfspraul>
sure, up to you
<wolfspraul>
the thing is - Russia has a strong open source scene
<kristianpaul>
wants his case
<wolfspraul>
if we do a launch, and you have some stock at the launch day, that would be cool
<Jay7>
I'm interested in distributing some 'special' hardware here
<wolfspraul>
but of course there is a lot of risk in that, not sure you want to take that risk...
<Jay7>
e.g. sheevaplugs, some arm boards, etc :)
<Jay7>
I like this HW :)
<wolfspraul>
I'm taking enough risks already, I cannot take more. So you can only buy things from me. I cannot send you x units in advance, you pay later etc.
<wolfspraul>
but I do know that if we had a distributor in Russia _in advance_, there would be some business (=sales)
<wolfspraul>
but that distributor has to have local stock, and be able to ship within russia in a controlled way
<Jay7>
wolfspraul: pre-paid should be ok :)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: ah, did you get your toys today ?
<Jay7>
people here may pay forward and wait for delivery
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: not :-(
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: blargh. what went wrong ?
<kristianpaul>
I was able to reach the fedex office in cali, now is coming to buga, hopefully tomorrow (they argue)
<kristianpaul>
s/was/wasnt
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: hmm, good luck on a saturday ...
<kristianpaul>
thats un fair buga is just one hour far from cali, ant they suposelly have up to 48 hrs to deliver !!
<kristianpaul>
argg
<kristianpaul>
yeah hopefully tomorrow :-)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: oh, here it takes them something like an 8 hours period as well. sometimes early, sometimes late. needless to say, they're less than 1/2 hour driving distance from my home.
<wpwrak>
(well, driving time. including all delays and traffic jams they could possibly encounter on the way. that is, except rush hour, when everything just stops for an hour :)
<kristianpaul>
no excuse here our highways are the best of the country
<kristianpaul>
is fault of that fedex method of use a thirdparty for places in wich they dont want put office.
<wpwrak>
probably too dangerous ;-)
<kristianpaul>
i'm a bit afraid, lest hope not
<Jay7>
hm.. quick googling show that our customs fee for commercial use is about 40%
<Jay7>
looks insane..
<wolfspraul>
Jay7: depends on what we get them to accept as value
<wolfspraul>
there are many options, but the only way to make progress is to start trying what works.
<wolfspraul>
for example we can sell 'kits' to you, then we declare a much lower value like 100 USD or so, per kit.
<wolfspraul>
which also depends on whether you can work with 2 invoices, or you need 1. etc. etc.
<wolfspraul>
the normal stuff :-)
<wolfspraul>
the other day I read an article about a whole division at Mercedes whose job it is to disassemble fully built cards, ship them as parts, and then reassemble them in the destination country.
<wolfspraul>
they have hundreds of people doing this all the time! crazy world...
<wolfspraul>
it does create jobs though, I mean one could disassemble and reassemble the car a few more times, to create even more jobs?
<Jay7>
hehe.. this way was widely used on our east when transferring auto's from Japan :)
<wolfspraul>
let me summarize my key thougts on Russia
<wolfspraul>
we have sold 5-10 nanos there, all one by one with fedex or ems
<wolfspraul>
all arrived, we had no customs problems
<Jay7>
btw, it should be possible to make cases here
<wolfspraul>
I know that we could have sold a lot more if there would be a local distributor.
<Jay7>
so, only boards should be shipped
<kristianpaul>
wow HSL 2.75G Femtocell is WIP support in openbsc !!
<wolfspraul>
for m1, it's going to be the same.
<Jay7>
wolfspraul: I have one NN shipped by CELF, please add to your numbers ;)
<kristianpaul>
i hope this is cheaper than the other BTS they use.
<wolfspraul>
Jay7: I will probably move to selling whole products asap.
<wolfspraul>
the reason is that there are many parts, also accessories, shipping or retail box, etc. it becomes very complicated if I sell some parts here, some parts there.
<Jay7>
but from customer side it will be easier (and cheaper) to do direct order from you
<wolfspraul>
so I will make one big thing out of this.
<wolfspraul>
with the case, you can try. -but- it's a lot of work, many details. I am buying cases from roh and I would be crazy to try this myself.
<Jay7>
yeah..
<wolfspraul>
Jay7: what will be easier/cheaper? don't understand
<wolfspraul>
as passionate as I am about copylefting everything, documenting the process, the sources, costs, etc., I still have huge respect for manufacturing work.
<wolfspraul>
so it's not like "oh, this is open, so I do it myself".
<wolfspraul>
for me it's "this is open, I can let someone else do it" :-)
<Jay7>
wolfspraul: I mean buyer
<Jay7>
i.e. someone who will buy e.g. Milkymist
<wolfspraul>
you mean someone in Russia?
<Jay7>
yep
<wolfspraul>
well, two things
<Jay7>
it's cheaper to order directly via internet
<wolfspraul>
first of all, if a Russian customer knows he is being served by a Russian company, that removes a whole big chunk of uncertainty around shipping delays, customs, maybe also payment options
<Jay7>
because of on custom fee for personal delivery :)
<Jay7>
s/on/no/
<wolfspraul>
we can declare a larger shipment with big discounts
<wolfspraul>
there are many options
<wolfspraul>
it took me a while to understand that in business (yeah well), there is nothing wrong if the 'customs invoice' 'commercial invoice' 'shipping invoice' 'insurance invoice' all have totally different values.
<wolfspraul>
but what I wanted to say about distributors, when I have a distributor somewhere, I stop selling direct to that country or countries.
<wolfspraul>
instead I redirect all sales/requests to the distributor
<Jay7>
well.. I'll talk with lawyer about this
<wolfspraul>
of course this must be within reason, i.e. if the distributor is lazy and marks up the price by 200%, and all customers complain, then I will stop working with that distributor and ship direct.
<Jay7>
may be things are simple
<wolfspraul>
but that has never happened so far.
<wolfspraul>
in Russia a distributor would make a lot of sense, because
<wolfspraul>
a) there is a big and strong open source scene
<wolfspraul>
b) there are serious difficulties in shipping and customs that a Russian distributor with local stock could overcome
<wolfspraul>
if you are interested, my proposal would be that you first buy 1, to learn about the product yourself.
<wolfspraul>
you cannot sell somethign you don't know.
<wolfspraul>
if that looks good, and others are telling you they would like to buy this from you, you can order 5 or 10, then for that shipment we need to try to find a customs optimized way.
<wolfspraul>
but first steps first, ask your lawyer etc.
<wolfspraul>
I would love to work with a distributor in Russia, you would have my full support.