<rjeffries>
19:52 <wolfspraul> rjeffries: is it the Real Ron? //yes. jave been reading some irc logs, thought I'd watch in real tiem
<wpwrak>
(catching up ... slowly)
<wpwrak>
ya/4760: yes, that's th  one that seems to have left the radar.
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: welcome here!
<rjeffries>
Thanks. I finally realized this must be where the action is, since mail list is so quiet.
<wolfspraul>
you asked about fpga power consumption once
<wpwrak>
(touch screen) i agree on pragmatism, which shouldn't exclude anyone having interesting ideas, but in the absence of tangible results, take whatever works. i have no strong opinion wrt resistive/capacitative
<wolfspraul>
to give you a rough ballpark starting point, at the same process technology you can assume 10* the price, 10* power consumption and 1/10th of performance
<wolfspraul>
but that comparison won't get you to understand why it's an interesting chip
<wpwrak>
alternatives could also include a touch pad or an external mouse. but a touch screen would be nice in any case.
<wolfspraul>
then you asked about more memory once, the answer is that it won't help current Ben NanoNote owners :-)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: 4760 hasn't left the radar
<wolfspraul>
but it's upon Ingenic to make the next move
<wolfspraul>
and my estimate for them making that move in 2011 is...
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul: I pretty much assumed those factors. the point I was hinting at is MM (fpga based) is very(!) cool, but a very ;omg way from being a pocekatble cheap batter device a la Nanonote. that's all
<wolfspraul>
hmm. let's say 25%
<wolfspraul>
fpga makes a lot of sense together with the cartdrige idea
<rjeffries>
wolf, the more memory question was "what if you spin a low risk improvment to Ben that can be done at modest cost. it would be ready when the current inventory is depleted.
<wolfspraul>
it's not radical enough, and Ben is maturing nicely so no rush
<rjeffries>
MM is fabulous stuff, but attackes very different use cases than nanonote, at a much higher cost
<wolfspraul>
for example ben-wpan may become an excellent 'next level' type of thing
<wolfspraul>
let's first get ben-wpan to work well with Ben
<wolfspraul>
out of the box, including Linux kernel, upstreaming, apps, etc.
<wolfspraul>
it will take time
<rjeffries>
I assume werener is aiming to have the wpan inside a future nanonote update
<wolfspraul>
that's something that could be integrated into Ya, and still not exlude Ben owners because they can get it as an add-on to talk to their new Ya
<rjeffries>
sure
<rjeffries>
my pragmatic side would predict that you are very smart to convinve Ingenic you may walk away
<wolfspraul>
don't understand
<wolfspraul>
I would love them to move forward, we see.
<wolfspraul>
they are just a chip supplier to me, my model is not to make money because I write free drivers for their proprietary technology
<rjeffries>
but, the practiacl Ya Nanonote will have newer Ingenic chip, wpan stuff, more memory. may not get USB host, or lighted eyboard, or larger screen
<wolfspraul>
hey
<rjeffries>
what drivers are you missing now?
<wolfspraul>
maybe you are so eager about Ya because you regret to never having bought a Ben :-)
<rjeffries>
no regrets, Ben is not designed for me, but is a delightful product. ;)
<rjeffries>
I now I sold one for you, a friend in Santa Barbara'
<rjeffries>
I am afraid it is a drawer computer: stays in his desk drawer
<rjeffries>
anyway you guys are doing interesting wor.
<wolfspraul>
the drawer rate is high, no doubt
<wolfspraul>
I think you slowly understand our priorities though, even though I am painfully slow in making it clear, in light of your very reasonable feedback/questions.
<rjeffries>
I do not share the religious fervor that I admire in you. it taes unreasonable men to get things done
<wolfspraul>
I see software on the Ben improving, and a whole group of open efforts around it, like ben-wpan, a similar hoperf project, openwrt, jlime, werner's ben case work, roh's m1 case work and maybe ben-wpan case work, and so on
<rjeffries>
But I am not unfamiliar with producy managment and the practicalities of maing a buc with systems
<wolfspraul>
no religious fervor, just follow what feels right
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
buc?
<wolfspraul>
how do you like Milkymist One?
<rjeffries>
buc (as in $UASD) aka profit ;)
<wolfspraul>
oh it will be hugely profitable
<rjeffries>
USD
<wolfspraul>
Sebastien is waiting in awe for your first comments on Milkymist One or Milkymist the SoC :-)
<rjeffries>
Milkymist is technically very interesting. the designer ,ay welll be at genius level
<rjeffries>
his challenge will be to find the fisrt 50 people who will invest the amount of sale when volumes are low
<wolfspraul>
I've sold 25 until today
<rjeffries>
I have no idea how big the VJ niche is, or whether MM will exceed what can be done with a fast lappie
<wolfspraul>
I have 5 left from the rc2 run.
<rjeffries>
wolf... but one assume you sold those to his distributer
<wolfspraul>
not even rushing to sell them, as my main priority is to get to people who may really contribute back, avoid the drawers...
<wolfspraul>
not really, most of them are sold through
<rjeffries>
good stuff
<wolfspraul>
10 for fosdem, they are not sold yet
<wolfspraul>
not sold through yet
<rjeffries>
briefly, a new topic?
<wolfspraul>
are you writing a new topic? or you are asking whether m1 is a new topic?
<wolfspraul>
btw, one massive priority I personally want to work more on this year is to get free data onto the Ben, and m1 once we have established some way to share visual patches and other artworks
<wolfspraul>
we need to connect the out of the box experience to high quality free data resources on the web
<wolfspraul>
like wikimedia foundation content (wikipedia, wikibooks, wikispecies, wikimedia commons)
<wolfspraul>
project gutenberg, maybe some spoken stuff - I love audio books for example
<wolfspraul>
maybe some animation series, if any free ones exist.
<wolfspraul>
so the Ben out of the box should allow you to just download the Beethoven symphonies from Wikimedia Commons, and play them.
<wolfspraul>
maybe we can do something similar with jamendo for newer music (wikimedia commons is only collecting classical music right now)
<wolfspraul>
my point is that all of this may already be possible theoretically now, but I think we should make it very easy, out of the bo
<wolfspraul>
box
<wolfspraul>
the Ben should be a window to all sorts of free data in the world, 'preinstalled' (= the correct URLs and viewers/download apps preinstalled)
<rjeffries>
that sounds cool
<wolfspraul>
with m1 we first need to establish some forum to share patches, background pictures, etc. I very much look forward to working on that.
<rjeffries>
one last question before I am off to bed
<rjeffries>
??
<wolfspraul>
that's the question?
<rjeffries>
no
<rjeffries>
is Carlos actively continuing to develop what used to be SAKC (I can;t eep all the new meaningless model names straight;)
<wolfspraul>
you are always asking the good questions
<wolfspraul>
I respect Carlos work and perspective, but right now we can say he 'suspended' his activities in Qi :-) I think that's fair to say...
<wolfspraul>
he was very pissed about the discussions about Jane's wonderful crochet work
<wolfspraul>
then he proudly unsubscribed
<wolfspraul>
and didn't even read the FABULOUS replies he got to his rant mail
<wolfspraul>
which he is also proud of (to not have read them)
<wolfspraul>
so we leave it like that for now
<wolfspraul>
I think he will be back eventually.
<rjeffries>
his card is interesting. very different target audience than Milymist
<wolfspraul>
there are tons of dead open hardware projects in the world
<rjeffries>
true
<wolfspraul>
soon can be dead_open_hardware_project++;
<wolfspraul>
you need to ask Carlos for proof of live, not me.
<rjeffries>
the camera project also has merit, especailly since it MUST include Werner;s radio crcuit so w ecan control remotely
<wolfspraul>
he didn't like David's part (marketing) either, so David/Tuxbrain dropped out of SIE/SAKC.
<wolfspraul>
the camera project is beautiful, I agree.
<wolfspraul>
but I need to see how I can make it a reality.
<wolfspraul>
focus is on m1 now.
<rjeffries>
agree.
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: one last word today. you give us very valuable feedback.
<wolfspraul>
_BUT_
<rjeffries>
well, good night and best of luck
<rjeffries>
listens
<wolfspraul>
because you don't come down from your 10,000 feet view, you don't see many of the details we are working on.
<wolfspraul>
so you need to accept that as a limitation of your arguments
<wolfspraul>
I'm not trying to sell you a Ben anymore.
<wolfspraul>
just get an iPad for now and wait :-)
<rjeffries>
my background has also included the down and dirty practical part
<wolfspraul>
there are many many worthwhile details we are working on, and those details are essential/mandatory/required for the next steps.
<rjeffries>
actually I do not buy any Apple products
<wolfspraul>
yes sure, but if you would have gotten a Ben or M1, you would see priorities different.
<wolfspraul>
I love Apple.
<rjeffries>
but when the android 7 inch tablets get real, maybe
<rjeffries>
I admire apple, yes
<rjeffries>
Jobs is a genius
<wolfspraul>
there is no company in the world that cares less about the amount of destruction they cause than Google.
<wolfspraul>
I'm so happy the Ben has the Android immunization, in the form of 32 MB memory.
<rjeffries>
Google is very powerful. I like what they are doing. it keeps apple from becoming a monopoly
<wolfspraul>
it wasn't even on purpose, but man it worked!
<rjeffries>
there ya go.
<wolfspraul>
nobody, even the most insane people, suggest we should port Android to the Ben
<wolfspraul>
no!
<rjeffries>
well, must get toe bed. nice chatting!
<wolfspraul>
or have you read it?
<wolfspraul>
n8
<rjeffries>
N8 is the phone I would buy were I to buy a smart phone (becaus eI love the camera
<rjeffries>
but I do not use a smart phone as I consider data plans to be too expensive
<rjeffries>
cya
<kyak>
xiangfu: thanks for helping with git, it worked fine!
<xiangfu>
kyak: Hi, I find another way to enable qipackages libiconv, four very simple commands:
<qi-bot>
[commit] Adam Wang: Matching part number& datasheet of P1 & P2 for jtag/serial cable pod run1: http://qi-hw.com/p/m1/60f6298
<adamw_>
xiangfu, tks.
<xiangfu>
adamw_Â Â :)
<wolfspraul>
kyak: sorry to bug you. do you know whether this channel (#qi-hardware) indicates its charset preference somewhere?
<wolfspraul>
I am trying to cleanup the irclogs, and somewhere the utf-8 gets garbled
<wolfspraul>
it seems eggdrop writes the log files in 8859-1, but I don't see how I can tell eggdrop to write them in utf-8 instead.
<wolfspraul>
maybe eggdrop decides it should log in 8859-1 because it thinks/sees that the charset on #qi-hardware is 8859, not utf-8?
<wolfspraul>
I'm wondering whether there is a flag somewhere to say which charset a channel has, and then how we can indicate that #qi-hardware should be utf-8...
<kristianpaul>
ben delighfull <- ah?. is a working ogg player, wikireader* image viewver (yeah missing content on this part), calculator, note keeper. :-)
<kyak>
wolfspraul: hey. this channel does support utf-8; the problem is, eggdrop doesn't
<kyak>
to enable utf-8 in eggdrop, you need to follow these instructions http://eggwiki.org/Utf-8
<kyak>
actually, it's not the channel that suports utf-8, but the network.. and freenode is utf-8 aware
<kristianpaul>
lets see ññññññ
<kyak>
mostly all the symbols here are 8859-1, except for these - 3K3K3K
<kyak>
or this V
<kyak>
-)
<kristianpaul>
:-)
<kyak>
wolfspraul: after patching eggdrop, you need to start it in utf-8 locale, too
<kyak>
though it's mentioned to use this patch with care, it solves all utf-8 problems for me :)
<wolfspraul>
kyak: ok thanks for pointing me in the right direction!
<wolfspraul>
I will probably not build eggdrop from source now, hopefully they will add this in a future release...
<wolfspraul>
from the 2 steps in the wiki page, #2 looks quite crude. If you look at the source that one shouldn't be necessary, right before is the code to check LC_ALL or a few others.
<wolfspraul>
so it must be step #1 then that makes the difference
<wpwrak>
grmbl. cablemodem disconnected and took a LOT of talking to to come back again
<wpwrak>
let's see what i missed ...
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (heavy mail) i guess i hid the 8:10 card issue well ;-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (ya) i think a new device that's not too radically different from the old one would help to motivate and grow the community
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: show that there's not only revolution but also a maturing process. build confidence that existing problems will be fixed, now just superseded by cool new ones
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i don't think the MM1 core is really ready for this yet. if i interpret what sebastien writes right, linux support is still in very bad shape, with issues not only in the kernel but also in the toolchain and probably lots of problems also in creating a distribution
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: so i think nanonote and mm1 should run in parallel for a bit. that would also create an opportunity to resolve more of the openness issues that still plague the ben, in particular the case
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: for the cpu, i don't know. even if the 4760 isn't available or needs an excessive amount of new development work, some of the older ingenic cpus don't look too horrible either
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: for kernel work and such, i would actually hope that a migration to a different ingenic cpu should be relatively easy
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: agreed on not inviting crazy amounts of work on what's ultimately a proprietary design, though
<wolfspraul>
yup. all agreed.
<wpwrak>
of course, there are certain obstacles to get a ya project rolling, like manpower and - i would assume - financial resources.
<qwebirc25598>
I have a problem unbricking nanonote
<qwebirc25598>
and I do not want to solder the two pins
<wpwrak>
roh: btw, the usb atmel might actually be a choice for a future version of atusb. the transceiver can output its clock and the atmel would then have a very accurate external clock.
<roh>
ah. nice
<roh>
wpwrak: i wonder how this works  in detail (henn/egg)
<roh>
meaning.. what enables and configs the transciever to output the clock to enable the avr to work?
<wpwrak>
any kind of reset does :)
<roh>
i see. they planned it right
<wpwrak>
yeah, they put their brains to good use :) default clock frequency is only 1 MHz, but that's plenty to get things running
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atrf-txrc.c (usage, main): changed -P to -E to free -P for other use http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/fc226b2
<zrafa>
wpwrak: it is really great for the nn future.. wow, really nice project (the whole qi projects family)
<wolfspraul>
zrafa: you on drugs?
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: hi Ron
<zrafa>
wpwrak: would be it too complicated to offer a bridge some day?.. For example, another tiny similar device (no atben, no atusb) which you just put somewhere to reach more distances?
<zrafa>
wolfspraul: why?
<zrafa>
wolfspraul: no me.. werner and you maybe
<kristianpaul>
lol :-)
<zrafa>
wolfspraul: bridge.. dont know the exact word .. repeater?
<zrafa>
wpwrak:Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â ^
<zrafa>
wolfspraul: sorry, it was for werner
<zrafa>
wolfspraul: I gave some friend, as a gift, the nn Miriam and I bought in Spain.. That guy asked me to buy some wifi stuff.. and I just told him to wait for a few months.. something will appear on the qi world for that :)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: access point?
<kristianpaul>
you mean atusd i guess?..
<wpwrak>
zrafa: hey, thanks ! i must say that i'm rather pleased with it myself :)
<wpwrak>
zrafa: (repeater) yeah, you could even make an atusd do that. of course, this also reduces your total bandwidth, because each packet then needs two transmissions
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: atusd is now called atben :)
<kristianpaul>
argg
<kristianpaul>
k
<kristianpaul>
atusb still same?
<wpwrak>
yup. didn't you read my mail announcing the changes ? :)
<kristianpaul>
yes
<wpwrak>
"the 8:10 card, [...]"
<kristianpaul>
ujum
<wpwrak>
the mail wolfgang calls too heavy to digest ;-)
<wpwrak>
(and i still have the one on the cam stuff sitting around ... some 120 lines by now :)
<kristianpaul>
i still reading it too btw :-)
<wpwrak>
c'mon, it wasn't *that* bad :)
<kristianpaul>
no no, was my fault, i was some busy this week, i have others mails to read too
<kristianpaul>
did a quick read, now full mode  :-)
<kristianpaul>
ahh was short mail actually ;-)
<kristianpaul>
So i can address two atben in the same ben nanonote? (that goes for the FAQ)
<wpwrak>
two atben ? with one slot ?
<kristianpaul>
well some sort of mix wires and sharing buses may be?..
<kristianpaul>
I just was thinking on the "reapeater"
<wpwrak>
ah .. well, you could plug two atusb into a pc
<kristianpaul>
for example i'm aware of for RFMB12 you need at least two chips for fullduplex comunication, i'm not aware of this situatation with atben
<kristianpaul>
PC i see
<zrafa>
wpwrak: I mean some independent device.. for example something powered externally, no from ben or pc, which you plug on the wall for example
<wpwrak>
wpan has fairly narrow channels, so you can have several devices usefully communicate in parallel.
<kristianpaul>
                                                                        yeah^^^
<wpwrak>
zrafa: take an atusb, teach the firmware how to be a repeater, then plug it into a usb charger. done :)
<zrafa>
wpwrak: ah.. right :)
<kristianpaul>
hmm thats interesting setup
<kristianpaul>
that respond my question too
<wpwrak>
zrafa: usb chargers should be a few cents - if you buy the cheap junk openmoko had ;-) (i don't think any of these actually made it to customers)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: wpan communication is half-duplex. multiple chips for multiple cannels would be an unusual configuration.
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: whats the power consumption for atusb? i wonder if can feed it with solar light panels too
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: ethernet is full duplex, why not wifi as well? :-)
<kristianpaul>
any way just saying...
<wpwrak>
i haven't measured yet. i would expect < 50 mA peak. the current firmware is crazily inefficient, so average would be ~20-30 mA. but i can fix that with time.
<wpwrak>
full duplex = you need two channels. usually not worth the trouble.
<wpwrak>
most communication is mainly one-way anyway. well, bulk data in one way, a few acks in the other way.
<kristianpaul>
yeah
<roh>
wpwrak: nice graphic ;)
<roh>
does that mean if you put the atusb into your bedroom it could work in the entire flat?
<wpwrak>
i could probably reach the bathroom, yes. well, in the bedroom, i only have a laptop, so it may perform a little worse than the pc (size of ground - the antenna apparently likes to be close to a big chunk of metal)
<roh>
heh
<DocScrutinizer>
:nod: I seem to remember ground plane antenna design to be the most easy and efficient, from my time with citizen band
<DocScrutinizer>
basically there's no such thing like an antenna uni-pole. Antenna always is a dipole, as some learned the hard way with GTA02 buzz issue
<DocScrutinizer>
-x- and lx-Â Â are the two basic antenna designs, (plus of course closed dipole which is a special form of first geometry). groundplane being the second of those 2 geometries
<DocScrutinizer>
in real life it's usually -------x-Â Â and lllx-
<DocScrutinizer>
so to make things simpler to calculate, you usually pretend the "gnd" half of dipole to be infinite size
<roh>
heh. i wonder if i could make antennas by lasering a '8' into acryllic plastic on one side and sheet the other one with some metal mesh and then 'lay a wire' into the lasered groove
<roh>
would make reproducability (precision) high as well as cheap protoyping
<roh>
i just dont have any clue about the math needed to make it useable
<roh>
i wonder if one of these metallic foils 'rettungsdecke' does make a good enough conductor to be used as an antenna
<roh>
could laminate that and make flexible antennas