<lekernel>
kristianpaul: no, you can write a cmake script in 5min, and contrary to plain make it handles cross-directory dependencies (almost) flawlessly
<adamw_>
but actually i am under digi-key member page, it shows 200 pcs for standard package
<adamw_>
if order 100pcs(crazy) with ntd48 only.
<wolfspraul>
I don't understand your point
<wolfspraul>
you have 2 options?
<wolfspraul>
100 pc for ntd 732
<wolfspraul>
10,000 pc for ntd 732
<wolfspraul>
sorry I meant 100pc for ntd 48
<adamw_>
100pcs for ntd 732
<adamw_>
right
<adamw_>
wait wait...i typed wrong
<wolfspraul>
you said 10,000pc=ntd732
<adamw_>
right
<wolfspraul>
100 pc=ntd48
<adamw_>
100 pcs = ntd 48
<adamw_>
correct
<wolfspraul>
(for the record, 1 USD = 30 ntd roughly)
<wolfspraul>
but the problem is what?
<wolfspraul>
that the 100pc come in a strip, and is hard to insert into smt machine?
<wolfspraul>
wherease the 10,000pc is a full reel, easy to insert into smt machine?
<adamw_>
hard and waste time in they will need connect a reel tape manually to tape that 100pcs
<wolfspraul>
sure
<adamw_>
with 10000 (one reel) of course, they can directly pull the tape out on the feeder of smt machine.
<wolfspraul>
how many parts are acceptable to not be a full reel?
<wolfspraul>
I guess it's a price question
<wolfspraul>
maybe if the reel is less than 50 usd, always choose the reel?
<wolfspraul>
or even if the reel is less than 100 usd, always choose the reel?
<wolfspraul>
it should be possible to tell boom the price point under which to always prefer a reel
<wolfspraul>
right now it's 0 (zero) :-)
<wolfspraul>
adamw_: would that help you?
<wolfspraul>
so it's like make clean show KITS=35 CHOOSE_REEL_IF_LESS_THAN=50
<wolfspraul>
then it will pick a reel whenever the reel is less than 50 USD
<adamw_>
so this quite a price question, we just need werner, yes
<wpwrak>
digi-key also offer to do the reeling for you. so if you have an expensive enough component and no cheaper local alternative, that may make sense
<wolfspraul>
that's probably not what Adam needs
<wpwrak>
boom doesn't know about reels :)
<adamw_>
like some more parameter/arg to make more sense.
<wolfspraul>
I think it's just about reducing the manual reeling to fewer cases where it's really valuable
<wolfspraul>
adamw_: do I understand your need correctly?
<adamw_>
you got my idea totally
<wolfspraul>
you are ok if a few key components are not in a reel, then the smt company can make a reel themselves
<wolfspraul>
but you don't want that for penny capacitors, it would be embarassing
<wolfspraul>
so I think you need one new parameter, like I said CHOOSE_REEL_IF_LESS_THAN=xxx
<adamw_>
sure..if you do this all the time..really reaaly bad
<wolfspraul>
how many parts are acceptable to not come in a reel form?
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: yes but then we may need to teach boom about reels
<adamw_>
can't follow you
<wpwrak>
hmm, tricky. we're now moving out of the "make a shopping list for device X" domain to warehouse supply management
<wolfspraul>
adamw_: ok, step by step
<wolfspraul>
let's say we have a run, 30 parts
<wolfspraul>
ideally for all 30 parts we have a reel
<wolfspraul>
so 30 reels
<wolfspraul>
right?
<wolfspraul>
that's the easiest for the SMT company
<adamw_>
ideally but no need all
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wpwrak>
e.g. if you need twenty 100 nF caps for something, you'll probably get a reel no matter what, becasue you're sure you'll use them soonish anyway
<wolfspraul>
so some reels may be expensive
<adamw_>
wpwrak, of course
<DocScrutinizer>
hi!
<wolfspraul>
so if we have 30 parts, what would still be acceptable for the SMT place to _not_ be a reel?
<wolfspraul>
25 reels, and 5 stripes?
<wolfspraul>
20 reels and 10 stripes?
<wpwrak>
so things like projected frequency of use also enter the equation
<wolfspraul>
15 reels and 15 stripes?
<adamw_>
no, no...
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: yes but right now you have to make that decision manually
<adamw_>
for examples, if the chip package is sot-235 with high expensive
<wpwrak>
i think ll this is over-engineering. don't make boom do it. let the user do it manually, but give boom a means to check that the boom "order" and the real order are compatible
<wolfspraul>
so the shopping list does all the calculation, but the calculation is worthless because the (cheap) reel price trumps it all
<adamw_>
i still can ask smt vendor manually pick & place it
<wpwrak>
i think it ultimately has to be a manual decision. there are too many parameters. and you don't want to have to tell boom your whole produce and market development roadmap :)
<DocScrutinizer>
adamw_: which possibly is more expensive than a whole reel
<adamw_>
sometimes sot-235 chips on board are few....but for resistors / capacitors are too smaller said 0402...
<wolfspraul>
we talk about reels, packaging type, not development roadmap
<wpwrak>
e.g., what if you're planning to switch to a different 100 nF cap (e.g., company going from X5R to X7R soon). then you'd have to override the "just get a lot" rule.
<wolfspraul>
sure we can define this to be outside of scope for boom
<wolfspraul>
but "development roadmap" sounds a little dismissive :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: no, then you have to buy the 'better' component in reel qty from beginning
<wpwrak>
well, the roadmap determines what will be a part you need in large quantity :)
<wolfspraul>
this is a practical problem here, especially for small runs
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: what if it isn't available yet ?
<wolfspraul>
not about forecasting until eternity
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: then that's odd
<wolfspraul>
and actually it's easy. if the reel is < 100 USD, buy the reel.
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: sometimes, companies do announce their changes ;-))
<wolfspraul>
just that boom cannot be told that, so it needs to be done manually.
<adamw_>
DocScrutinizer, sorry i don't understand your question. could you explain more?
<DocScrutinizer>
adamw_: I put no question
<wolfspraul>
does digikey have the same part number for all package types?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: USD 100 is just an arbitrary limit. if it's a more expensive part but you still expect to need a lot, you'd need to override this rule again
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: naw, part numbers connect messily
<wpwrak>
the best is probably to do what boom currently does - give you a "shopping list" for precisely what you asked for. that gives you the information you need for general price evaluation
<wolfspraul>
not 'override again'
<wolfspraul>
the logic is inherently different for articles < 1 cent and > 1 USD. and that will never change.
<wpwrak>
then, as a further step, find a reel for all the parts, and price that
<wolfspraul>
if boom is about sourcing then such 'real world' (price related) stuff is at least something to consider.
<wolfspraul>
I mean it is doing it already, with factoring in volume discounts.
<wolfspraul>
reel or not reel seems like a practical concern
<wpwrak>
i don't think it will ever pick reels right now, because they're always a bit more expensive than just a cut tape
<wolfspraul>
so if you would tell boom "choose a reel if the reel is < xxx usd", then maybe the part numbers it would come up with would be entirely different
<wolfspraul>
otherwise this work simply has to be done manually, although I think it could easily be automated
<wpwrak>
i would do it manually, with boom assisting
<wolfspraul>
in that case boom doesn't need to do a lot of math around 'volume discounts' either
<wpwrak>
so, step 1: make the current list
<DocScrutinizer>
component sourcing is hard to automate
<wolfspraul>
if this will be dismissed totally first of all, to consider the reel question
<DocScrutinizer>
you'll always need a last human instance
<wpwrak>
step 2: combine any set of orders and get reel pricing. then pick what you like.
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: exactly !
<wolfspraul>
nobody doubts that. delete boom?
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
we are trying to find out what makes sense automating
<DocScrutinizer>
shopping list makes sense
<wolfspraul>
how do you get reel pricing?
<wolfspraul>
boom picks a part number
<DocScrutinizer>
the shopping has to be done by a human
<adamw_>
wpwrak, at the beginning I surely agreed that in the end before entering web system to order...it indeeds 'manually' on 'shopping'.
<wolfspraul>
but if you would consider reels, you may be better off with an entirely different manufacturer, because you can get a reel from them, or under that (other) part number?
<wpwrak>
digi-key usually have a "different packaging" list. you could also look for a match in vendor part number.
<DocScrutinizer>
then consider shipping cost for example. how to handle that?
<adamw_>
so the question will be what's the goal for boom now? without reel determined?
<wpwrak>
(different manufacturer) yes, that would be a problem case where you'd need to integrate
<wolfspraul>
ok I look at a specific example
<wpwrak>
adamw_: it tells you what parts fit and have good prices :)
<DocScrutinizer>
ordering several type of components at one retailer might be more economic even when the particular pricetag is a bit higer
<wolfspraul>
make KITS=35 in mmone-jtag-serial tells me to buy 40 of 311-1028-1-ND
<adamw_>
wpwrak, yeah..
<adamw_>
it indeeds does now, but if trying to think we're producing 200pcs, 500pcs and etc..
<wolfspraul>
I go to digikey, see the 'alternate package' box
<DocScrutinizer>
automatic ordering can be done only if you got a good deal with a retailer who guarantees you get the best price always when ordering all your stuff at them
<wolfspraul>
it tells me the part-number for the (10,000pc) reel is 311-1028-2-ND
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: have you looked at boom?
<DocScrutinizer>
nah. not at all
<wolfspraul>
yeah :-)
<wolfspraul>
your comments make sense, but we are trying to optimize boom...
<wolfspraul>
optimize could mean let it do more or less
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: how could they do this ? if you order 100 cheap parts, how can they tell that, by the end of next year, you'll have needed a reel ?
<DocScrutinizer>
but boom had to understand pidgin fineprint to make anything like that possible
<wolfspraul>
let's focus pragmatically
<wolfspraul>
some tedious work steps can be automated, so they should
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul:Â Â if all you need are 40 such caps on a reel, the digi-reel would be your cheapest option
<wolfspraul>
some work steps require too much review/thinking
<wolfspraul>
some work steps are so quick and difficult to automate that it's also not worth it
<wolfspraul>
those things are all clear, but we already have boom and try to move it forward
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: ok so back to that example, I look at 311-1028-2-ND and it's 18.54 USD
<wpwrak>
the thing is, how does boom know that a part will be popular for you ? where is the database with your production forcast ?
<wolfspraul>
the digi-reel option is 311-1028-6-ND
<wolfspraul>
popular?
<wolfspraul>
I talk about ordering for 1 small run
<wolfspraul>
the one and only ever
<wpwrak>
for 40 caps, the digi-reel is USD 7.44
<wolfspraul>
after that the project will die immediately
<wpwrak>
digi-reel then
<wolfspraul>
adam's feedback makes sense to me
<wpwrak>
or maybe your smt fab does the reeling at a lower cost than digi-key
<wolfspraul>
come to the smt place with 40 cut pieces with penny caps and resistors, and they will hate you, or make you pay more right there
<wolfspraul>
because they will look at you and think "how can you be so stupid"
<DocScrutinizer>
add a fix amount punishment to price of low qty (i.e. *no* reel), for handling at fab etc
<wpwrak>
of course they'll make you pay for it :)
<wolfspraul>
digi-reel is also a reel, I would think
<wpwrak>
not stupid, skimpy ;-)
<wolfspraul>
so there is no need (in this discussion/context) to distinguish between digi-reel and manufacturer reel
<wpwrak>
yes, it's digi-key taking the cut tape, adding a bit of empty tape at begining and end, and winding it on a reel
<wolfspraul>
sure exactly what the smt shop would do
<wolfspraul>
digi key may have perfected this system, who knows, so they might well be competitive even with a chinese smt place
<wolfspraul>
dont' know
<wpwrak>
i think the cost of making a digi-reel is 7 USD flat (to this, add the component cost)
<DocScrutinizer>
so it's (nn * $/unit)+punishment vs price-of-reel_whatever
<wolfspraul>
well still comes back to my variable then
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: yes, that may work
<wpwrak>
however, this still doesn't catch the "order a lot of popular parts even if you need only a few now"
<wolfspraul>
but boom would need to know what is a reel or not a reel
<adamw_>
right, i know digi-key's digi-reel package is that what wverner said
<wolfspraul>
that's a separate case
<adamw_>
this is good, but not for long term solution in boom?
<wolfspraul>
we can say that both cases are outside of scope for boom, or one, or none
<DocScrutinizer>
I even have such reels from OM here :-D (the junk pile in front of office)
<wolfspraul>
I haven't look deep enough into boom to see how hard it would be for it to know what is a reel and what not a reel
<wolfspraul>
that knowledge could then be factored in (economically as specified by the user, or just with reasonable defaults)
<wpwrak>
one problem with digi-reels is that they don't have a catalog price. so you have to go to digi-key and ask "how much would this be for N components"
<wolfspraul>
do you know how they calculate them?
<wolfspraul>
always + 7 USD?
<DocScrutinizer>
I'd offer a table of alternatives to user, incl price/unit, price-total (with and without any punishment) and a URL
<DocScrutinizer>
the you go thru the list
<DocScrutinizer>
for each component
<DocScrutinizer>
no other way
<wolfspraul>
also they may not have the digi-reel option for every component, I would think
<wolfspraul>
let's say we have a more complex board like m1. 550 components.
<wpwrak>
what i remember seeing so far was alwaya USD 7
<wpwrak>
yes, not having digi-reel would be another issue
<wolfspraul>
so with boom right now, it will give let's say 100-200 part numbers that all need to be manually adjusted because you cannot tell boom to prioritize reels.
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: reduce that figure of 550 by a factor of maybe 0.25, for many components are same type
<DocScrutinizer>
e.g 100nF, 1kR
<wolfspraul>
I think it comes down to reel vs. non-reel. because that is an economic issue once you have a pick&place machine.
<wpwrak>
550 different component ?!? are you guys mad ? ;-)
<wolfspraul>
not different
<wpwrak>
ah, good :)
<wolfspraul>
but I'm sure if we would run it through boom, we would have a lot of part numbers that would need manual adjustment only for the lack of considering the reel thing.
<wolfspraul>
and it won't get better for a run of 100, 200, 500.
<wpwrak>
right now, it'll never pick a reel, because they're always more expensive
<wolfspraul>
the shopping list boom creates would be a lot more valuable in such a run, if boom would consider reel priority
<wolfspraul>
so the first thing to do with a boom shopping list would be to take out everything < 100 usd, and manually go through to fix the reel issue
<wolfspraul>
or let's say everything < 50 usd
<wpwrak>
what i can get from digi-key is the the reel price. there are some other things like tray and "box and reel" (?)
<wpwrak>
what i can't easily get is the digi-reel price
<wolfspraul>
tray is mostly for expensive parts, I think
<wolfspraul>
like the spartan-6
<wolfspraul>
big parts
<wpwrak>
yup
<wolfspraul>
and trays (the plastic) are cheap
<wolfspraul>
so even if you order 5 pc, they may send you a tray with the other slots empty
<wolfspraul>
or maybe they cut it out somehow
<DocScrutinizer>
nope
<wolfspraul>
either way I think this is not an issue on the smt side (adam can correct me)
<wpwrak>
or make it a moq ;-)
<wolfspraul>
so tray should be fine for now, I wouldn't know what boom should do with the knowledge of trays
<wolfspraul>
maybe I find out later :-)
<wolfspraul>
bulk is nasty too
<adamw_>
i got few parts from mouser they are empty even used broken tray!
<wpwrak>
lovely :)
<wolfspraul>
adamw_: are such broken trays a problem for the SMT shop?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: bulk is where cheap chinese manual labour shines (-:C
<wolfspraul>
or other 'partial' trays?
<adamw_>
but on smt side, smt technician will definitely put those pulk chips on their standard tray!
<wolfspraul>
maybe it's enough if boom knows about the package type, and then when creating the shopping list you can tell it a) pick all reels b) no bulk
<adamw_>
sure...they will change..
<wolfspraul>
then you can run it multiple times, and then start thinking or combining yourself
<adamw_>
pls be realistically, they are economical business.
<wolfspraul>
about what?
<wolfspraul>
realistic about what?
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: what is 'box and reel'?
<adamw_>
on put bulk chips on their standard tray, they have a lot of different trays.
<adamw_>
but if parts come with MOQ tray, they don't need to do 'change' work.
<wpwrak>
ah, it's tape & box
<adamw_>
same story on all packages on smt vendors
<wolfspraul>
adamw_: when will they keep using the tray we provide, and when switch to their own trays?
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: so can/should we teach boom about reel, or bulk?
<wolfspraul>
the minimum is probably only that it knows yes/no (when known) for each item, then it could exclude some if requested
<adamw_>
broken tray..or/and their platform is not enough to collect lot of chips inside of machine.
<wolfspraul>
(only for reference to earlier discussion)
<adamw_>
if all I ordered parts in all broken 'tray'...means mounting time is wasting!
<wpwrak>
okay, 92 sounds reasonable :)
<adamw_>
i ordered all for reels on resistors/capacitors...some sot-235 is also reel too
<wpwrak>
adamw_: so, in general, how do you make sure you don't get broken trays ? with digi-key, there are hints in the catalog (minimum order or "standard size"). but do all suppliers give you this information ?
<adamw_>
but yes , if 100pcs, 200pcs run...later project died!
<DocScrutinizer>
I guess the work to optimize this is so much overengineering it, the ROI break even will be on >30 huge designs, if ever
<adamw_>
I'll always ask MOQ!
<adamw_>
MOQ tray won't be broken one.
<wpwrak>
adamw_: what if they don't have a MOQ but break the tray if you go below "X" ?
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: you could have made that point way before we started boom. so far it's shaping up nicely, you should check it out :-)
<wpwrak>
(e.g., what you said happened with mouser)
<adamw_>
"X"?...can't follow..sorry
<wolfspraul>
of course a tool needs to be economic, but that's the point of the discussion here, to find out what the potential value of the automation would be, and how hard it is to automate...
<wpwrak>
X would be the quantity in a tray
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: I'm not saying bom isn't worth it. I just think arificial intelligence isn't anything that will fly there
<wolfspraul>
we are far away from that, and all agree
<adamw_>
hard to determine...but I would rather not less than 70~80% qty
<adamw_>
if less than 50% with empty, they finally hate you if eveytime run like this!
<adamw_>
one day Sharism will be kicked out from their customer.
<wolfspraul>
it's a nice intro, you can glance over it...
<wpwrak>
adamw_: yes, my question is how you can find out what quantity you need to order to avoid this. what do you do if their MOQ is 1 ? do all suppliers indicate in the catalog when it is a tray ? and do they all indicate the tray size ?
<wpwrak>
(or is it okay to just ignore those suppliers that don't provide this information in their catalog ?)
<DocScrutinizer>
all incredibly hard to automate
<wolfspraul>
ok I see the 'taped in box (ammopack)' in the datasheet. but if we all don't know what it is or when one would prefer that, I guess that means no need to consider now? :-) first need to understand what it is...
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i think i can get "reel yes/no" for full reels reliably out of digi-key. with others, i don't know yet how well their databases are structured.
<adamw_>
wpwrak, I always ask their MOQ, so I know what tray size they will definitely use. but this info sometimes is hard to get.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (ammobox) but you understand the concept ?
<adamw_>
most of this I 'asked' them.
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: it's already working. we are finetuning :-)
<wpwrak>
adamw_: ah, i was afraid of that :-(
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: no I don't understand ammobox
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: tape in a box is just that I guess. They have a paper box with the tape folded in, so you pull out of box like you'd pull off a reel
<wolfspraul>
adamw_: do you know what 'taped in box (ammopack)' means, and especially - when one would want/prefer that?
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: <wpwrak> adamw_: yes, my question is how you can find out what quantity you need to order to avoid this. what do you do if their MOQ is 1 ? do all suppliers indicate in the catalog when it is a tray ? and do they all indicate the tray size ?
<adamw_>
wpwrak, yeah..i know you want boom at least can point to somewhere or info can show MOQ, right?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: okay, it's a tape/belt in a box in a zigzag pattern. like the ammunition belt for a machine gun
<wolfspraul>
he
<wolfspraul>
that analogy doesn't help me either :-)
<wolfspraul>
let me google a bit
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: doesn't sound like finetuning. And the fineprint read to find out about such details isn't automatable
<wolfspraul>
"ammunition belt for machine gun" should find some pics...
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: not sure how important it is to have the box in this case, since it seems to be a less optimized process than tape & reel
<wolfspraul>
so I'm wondering who would want this
<adamw_>
wolfspraul, don't understand ammbox.
<wpwrak>
i think it's for components that are too fat for tape & reel
<wolfspraul>
but it sounds like an exotic problem compared to the much simpler 'reel or not' (which seems like will always pop up), or the already slighly more complicated tray sizing stuff
<wolfspraul>
I think we don't need to think about ammobox now, at least I don't feel the urge :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
hell, tape in box is supposed to be exactly specified, just like diameter etc of a reel. to the 0.1mm
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: (boxes) when you have a box-fed machine, will it be difficult to feed it just with a bit of tape ? (like it is for tape & reel)
<adamw_>
no tray this time.
<adamw_>
even 64-QFN will be tape reel.
<adamw_>
m1 rc2 had have!
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: (exact spec) hehe ;-)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: are we reaching consensus that boom should know about reel yes/no?
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: I think you need a lead-in on every tape. and you need a way to stash away the whole supply. If you got a stip of tape with leadin and just one component at end, you'll for sure not need any box
<wpwrak>
no question about that
<wpwrak>
the issue is how :)
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: okay, still the lead-in issue then. hmm.
<DocScrutinizer>
other than that it's mostly irrelevant if reel or box or short stip
<DocScrutinizer>
srtipe
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i didn't think of fractioned trays either. interesting issue :)
<DocScrutinizer>
meh
<wolfspraul>
well let's start with reels
<wolfspraul>
since that pops up as a labor intensive issue even on the first little jtag-serial test run
<wolfspraul>
I'm sure if we get to bigger boards the reel issue will get bigger too
<wolfspraul>
there's a reason digikey has digi-reel :-)
<wpwrak>
digi-key have the "standard package". maybe that's a good to use as a "soft moq"
<DocScrutinizer>
WUT, you finally got proper JTAG over the whole zoo?
<wpwrak>
of course, is many cases it seems just some random number....
<wolfspraul>
I think the tray cases are rare
<wolfspraul>
adamw_: do you remember how many parts in m1 rc2 were on a tray?
<wolfspraul>
the bom has 92 different parts
<wolfspraul>
maybe 10 connectors, all manual dip soldering
<wolfspraul>
I would think not more than 5 on tray?
<adamw_>
flash/video decoder/ethernet chip/spartan-6/audo codec/vga encoder >>Â Â 6
<wpwrak>
very close guess :)
<adamw_>
some part for mechanicals are also tray...well...those are through process.
<adamw_>
through hole
<wolfspraul>
ok so let's say ca. 70 on reels
<wolfspraul>
maybe 60
<wpwrak>
so .. potential workflow: 0) assume boom knows what is reel and what not. 1) run the thing requiring reels. 2) from this list, select what you like. 3) run again, skipping the reels you already selected.
<wolfspraul>
and either we buy a reel, or the smt place makes a reel, digi-reel style, which costs time & money that someone has to pay
<wpwrak>
at 2), the reels you select could be put into an inventory of sunken cost (just for this run), so they'd show up as USD 0 for the 2nd stage and thus always get preferred over ordering new stuff
<wpwrak>
so far, so good. now, what information do you (human) need to "select what you like" ?
<wpwrak>
between 1st and 2nd stage, you could also manually add digi-reels. or make a 3rd/Nth stage, whatever.
<wolfspraul>
how do you know which one to skip?
<wolfspraul>
right now prettyprint only leaves the description, which may differ
<wpwrak>
oh, you'd have to recombine the stages for pretty-printing
<wolfspraul>
(we already said elsewhere prettyprint should also list the schematics references)
<wolfspraul>
ah OK
<wolfspraul>
so you are before prettyprint?
<wpwrak>
all the output stuff is very as-hocish
<wolfspraul>
I mostly looked at prettyprint output so far
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
good idea with the reels going into inventory
<wpwrak>
you would basically need two catalogs: one with reels, one without. then run the query on the one with reels. get a lot of complains about stuff that can't be found, plus a list of reels. reject the ones you don't like. then take the list and add those things to your "things we already know we're ordering" inventory
<wpwrak>
then run again on the non-reel catalog
<wpwrak>
the manually find out what to do with those cut tapes. get the digi-reel price ? ask the smt fab ? bring them to the ACME (A Chinese Makes Everything) shop at the corner who'll reel them for a third the money ?
<wpwrak>
rather complex workflow
<wolfspraul>
I don't think you need to consider the ACME, it's not a real option
<wpwrak>
another issue is that it, in this form, is strictly a pipeline. if you change something at the top, things further down may no longer make sense
<wolfspraul>
if digikey adds 7 usd I doubt any place, even in china, can do it for less
<wolfspraul>
that's a big misconception that quality people cost nothing, the people that think like that routinely fail in China/Taiwan
<wpwrak>
e.g., if you get resistors from stackpole insead of rohm, you'll have to remember that there's a rohm entry in your "sunken inventory" and delete it
<wolfspraul>
so the smt place may 'eat' that cost, if it's just a few reels
<wolfspraul>
but it's going to be at least aroudn 10 USD for them as well, with their people, overhead, etc.
<wolfspraul>
maybe even this same 7 USD
<wolfspraul>
say the m1 rc2 run we pay the smt maybe 1,500 USD, for everything
<wolfspraul>
they are willing to do maybe 5 reels? maybe 10 at most?
<wolfspraul>
5*7 = 35 usd, 5*10=70
<wpwrak>
dunno how digi-key calculate that price. they may also want to make it a bit more expensive than strictly necessary to make you order more reels
<wolfspraul>
so they won't add it to your bill
<wolfspraul>
I doubt it, it's a service, I'm sure it has a good margin for them, it creates value to their customers, etc. etc.
<wolfspraul>
let me think about your proposed workflow a bit more
<wpwrak>
maybe ask your smt fab folks once. "what if i sent you a lot of tapes - would you kill me ? how much would you charge ? is it always a pain or only if i surprise you ?"
<wolfspraul>
(btw, we are too fast for Adam, so he will just lean back. I told him we are trying to process his feedback :-))
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: I can tell you that already.
<wolfspraul>
for larger runs, it's not an issue since everything will be on a reel anyway.
<wolfspraul>
for smaller runs, mostly they do the business with you because they hope for future larger runs.
<wolfspraul>
so they are 'subsidizing' those small runs already
<wpwrak>
ah, that again :)
<wolfspraul>
well it's no big drama, forget what you learnt at our former employer about that
<wolfspraul>
it's just like a garage who likes to check your air pressure, because they hope to talk you into that big exhaust pipe repair
<wolfspraul>
so let's say the rc2 run is a 1,500 usd business for them
<wolfspraul>
with 40 people
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
so they just try to get it done as quick as possible
<wolfspraul>
cash just covers their cost, they are nice and professional, do it in good quality, out and done
<wolfspraul>
if you can imagine that, you can understand how happy they are about a box full of cut tapes
<wolfspraul>
they will not charge you, because that's not their model (not like digi-key who is very professional about this 7 USD charge)
<wolfspraul>
they will silently eat it
<wolfspraul>
but they will still not like you, and if it's a whole box full of it and they see you are careless about that they may reject future small runs with you
<wolfspraul>
I much rather pay the 7 USD to digi-key
<wpwrak>
alright
<wolfspraul>
it's not worth to make my smt place unhappy, let those guys work unpaid over-hours at night, because I am so careless to give them a box full of cut tapes of penny components
<wpwrak>
yeah. it's a pity their model implies a conflict in such cases
<wolfspraul>
adamw_: do you know the total we paid to MinBo for the Milkymist One rc2 run?
<wolfspraul>
not really
<wolfspraul>
they are not setup for charging 7 usd / piece!
<wolfspraul>
as a business they are not setup for it
<wolfspraul>
so they can only either eat it/accept it, and as long as you are diligent about your side they will do that, or reject you entirely
<wpwrak>
well, they probably don't have people to do a lot of this, too. so makes sense then.
<wolfspraul>
for example, in small runs you often have this or that problem pop up anyway
<wolfspraul>
they are not charging extra!
<wolfspraul>
that's 'included' by them accepting the small run
<wolfspraul>
not because they don't want to, but because they have no mechanism to charge for every little thing
<wolfspraul>
for example in the last run, we ran into a strange problem with the video-in xtal
<wpwrak>
sure. but it's not flexible. e.g., if you for some reason decide that short tapes work best for you, you
<wolfspraul>
at that moment the smt machine was already moving
<wpwrak>
'll make enemies all over the place
<wolfspraul>
adam called downstairs and asked them to wait
<wolfspraul>
they stopped, wait for 45 minutes or so. everybody waiting.
<adamw_>
ntd 44500 = usd 1483
<wolfspraul>
not planned :-)
<wpwrak>
yup, understood
<wolfspraul>
but if there is a problem, for us it's still better to ask them to wait
<wpwrak>
but you were still in the envelope
<wolfspraul>
will those 45 minutes delay show up on the invoice? nope
<wolfspraul>
because they have no way to track it/account for it
<wpwrak>
what you're telling me is that you can't push the envelope
<wolfspraul>
the things that may happen are too diverse to catch them all
<wolfspraul>
yes, and a box full of careless tapes is one way to break the system
<wolfspraul>
for them and for yourself :-)
<wolfspraul>
that's how I understand adam
<wolfspraul>
then I rather pay the 7 usd / reel to digi-key
<wolfspraul>
I know digi-key is handling this professionally, I'm sure this is a high-margin 7 usd for them
<wpwrak>
(can't track) particularly not in china ;-)) (because you'd then have to assign blame - was it your fault or theirs)
<wolfspraul>
a small run is so full of surprises
<wolfspraul>
making a system to charge for each surprise is impossible
<wolfspraul>
so they just quote, and charge, a ballpark number
<wolfspraul>
1483 USD, there you go
<wolfspraul>
I'm not too far off the real numbers :-)
<wolfspraul>
amazing how 40 people work together on a run like milkymist one, and then collectively charge only 1483 usd
<wolfspraul>
so we diverted a little, the proposed boom/reel workflow...
<wpwrak>
okay. so, the workflow is then 1) try reels, 2) get a list for cut tapes, 3) manually decide on the fate of the tapes (to reel or not to reel)
<wolfspraul>
don't understand the stackpole/rohm resistor case
<wolfspraul>
the 1) try reels, does it include digi-reels?
<wpwrak>
(digi-reels) no. so far, i assume i can't automate them usefully
<wpwrak>
so they're always manual
<wolfspraul>
ok I think it should work, but I know boom less than you so I cannot fully imagine how it will look like
<wolfspraul>
it will be important to understand which items are already ordered as reels
<wolfspraul>
if they would come out in a format that one could add back as an .inv that would be nice
<wolfspraul>
then it's also not a pipeline
<wpwrak>
(resistor case) you process the BOM. then you go through this workflow, select full reels and all that. then you do something else for a few days. then you do another BOM run. now, maybe prices have changed or some item's stock went up/down. so one of the old choices gets replaced with a new choice.
<wolfspraul>
but it would still be good if there is an easy way to tell which reel part corresponds to which tape part
<wolfspraul>
not that this knowledge is buried deep inside boom somewhere
<wpwrak>
boom doesn't know your "reel inventory" is special. so unless you delete it and start over there, too, it will still assume you want all the things there.
<wolfspraul>
yes but you can just delete it, why not?
<wpwrak>
this would include the part(s) that now have become something else
<wpwrak>
sure, if you remember it
<wolfspraul>
the top-level makefile can you that automatically
<wolfspraul>
s/can you/can do/
<wpwrak>
(reel/other) equivalence. agreed on useful. implementation may be tricky, though, because the two catalogs currently can't coexist in boom.
<wpwrak>
(automatic deletion) then your process does need to know the inventory is "magic". you also need safeguards, so that you don't blow it away too easily.
<wolfspraul>
you can just rerun it every time
<wpwrak>
(blow it away) e.g., if you run an "what if" query for larger quantities, you may not want boom to panic and make radical changes if some of the things don't have enough stock. and you would only know you're hitting such a limit once you run the query.
<wpwrak>
rerun, yes. manually re-create each time, i don't think so :) therefore, you now have some persistent state you need to manage
<wpwrak>
btw, the same logic applies when you change a part. e.g., you realize that 100 kOhmn pull-up doesn't pull enough and switch to 47 kOhm.
<wpwrak>
or you decide to make 25 instead of 20 boards.
<wpwrak>
perhaps that "inventory" shouldn't be strictly an inventory. maybe it should be a input file to some script that writes this inventory
<wpwrak>
the input could be "prefer X", "reject Y". if X or Y don't get mentioned in the (input) list of reels, the script warns. likewise it warns about any items that don't come with a preference.
<wpwrak>
that way, you always know when something has changed and you can choose how you want to track the change
<wpwrak>
you probably notice that i'm very reluctant to put too much magic into this system, because that basically makes it uncontrollable. it's already a little too "magic" for my taste, in the sense that there's no real continuity control.
<wolfspraul>
agreed
<wolfspraul>
but that's why we discuss
<wolfspraul>
to distill the core
<wolfspraul>
what's valuable and easily automatable
<wolfspraul>
magic is not good
<wpwrak>
you don't need continuity if you never look at the output, just put it in an envelope and give it to purchasing. but as soon as you review things and such, then you need boom to help you with the deltas. at least tell you what has changed and how, if not why.
<wolfspraul>
already now the prettyprint is too pretty, but some things are easily fixed at the top, some require boom to just 'know' a bit more, like reel yes/no
<wpwrak>
at some point you probably also want tools that tell you why. e.g., "show me the available choices for U1, ordered by price"
<wpwrak>
and maybe with/without considering stock
<wpwrak>
e.g., if your real interest is in a price estimate but you're in no hurry to order, then the information you draw from such changes could be one of: 1) just wait and see. 2) try to find alternative suppliers. 3) maybe it points to a problem with the part (going out of fashion), so consider finding a different part. 4) ask the supplier when they'll get new stock and include this in your production schedule. and so on.
<wpwrak>
boom knows too little of our universe to make that sort of decisions ;-)
<wpwrak>
of course, if it was powerful enough to do such things, it would probably immediately start working on a plan to take over the planet and enslave mankind ;-)
<wpwrak>
(prettyprint too pretty) yeah. it shouldn't be "here is the answer" but something more interactive
<wolfspraul>
so ok
<wolfspraul>
we are on the same page
<wolfspraul>
I'm not sure we need a prefer X, reject Y system now
<wolfspraul>
I only need boom to know about reels, reel yes/no
<wolfspraul>
the rest is good as it is now
<DocScrutinizer>
list of alternative sources for each part, with each record consisting of a few calculations for price/unit, price total, number of parts needed per device/per fab lot, etc, some other info you can gather automatically, e.g. stock, plus a URL to click for the reviewer to have a look and decide by himself
<wolfspraul>
I'd rather first support mouser, or more parts
<wolfspraul>
and I'd rather first get the sharism inventory into boom format
<wolfspraul>
the other things you talk about are too hypothetical for me at the moment
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: what's the next step? what do you want me to do?
<wpwrak>
hmm, i'd also like to have a plan for the trays. that an issue i hadn't thought of yet
<wpwrak>
it may be similar enough to the reels that it should be handled by the same kind of process
<wolfspraul>
ok, so for now I just wait and we talk about the reels when you have digested it all a bit?
<wolfspraul>
I am ready and willing to do tasks in boom, dive in deeper
<wolfspraul>
I think if we are serious about it, we will need to do more work in it incrementally to distill the valuable core, get the AI stuff out, etc.
<wolfspraul>
I'm ready for that, but need your guidance :-)
<wolfspraul>
so far the system is clean and logical, so no rush
<wolfspraul>
if you want to think about the reels (or trays) a bit more, I hold back more feedback of even attempts at improving something until you give the green light
<wolfspraul>
s/of even/or even/
<wpwrak>
i'm not sure if you want to hack at the boom core at the moment. not only because it's a bit messy but also because it's something that will need rewriting in C anyway. it's already getting slow and doing fancier algorithms isn't something i'd want to do in perl.
<wpwrak>
what would be useful is to have some more supplier data. e.g., a database frontend for mouser or farnell. we know know digi-key very well, but boom shouldn't become into something that's overly optimized for one supplier.
<wolfspraul>
correct
<wolfspraul>
I can definitely look into mouser, that aligns well with what I need
<wpwrak>
also the database frontend has its scalability issues, but at least it's not a huge piece of code, so it hurts less to throw it away
<wolfspraul>
so I put the reels on hold (on my end), until I hear from you
<wolfspraul>
it's important for me though, as you see from the discussion about 7 USD / digi-reel, smt inability to charge for it on their end, or buying a whole reel
<wolfspraul>
btw, another thought is that we say this is limited to cheap resistors and capacitors
<wolfspraul>
and after a little while we will have the most important onces in stock
<wpwrak>
(reels) sounds good. what i'll try in the next days is to make the digi-key query produce two catalogs. or maybe i have an idea how i can have a combined catalog. the problem is that packaging doens't fit nicely into the current data model. it's somehow halfway manufacturer halfway supplier data.
<wolfspraul>
so maybe I should first try to get the current sharism inventory into boom format, that could already reduce the number of reel cases
<wolfspraul>
I'm sure Adam did that matching manually this time. which one do we have in stock, which one not... bad. and doesn't need any boom improvement to work on that now.
<wpwrak>
to make things worse, already digi-key mixes TR and non-TR infos. e.g., even if a manufacturer would have a non-reel option, digi-key may just list the manufacturer's reel and then break things down themselves.
<wolfspraul>
yes sounds good. if you think of a more generic way for the packaging problem that's good too.
<wolfspraul>
tape, reel, tray are probably things that boom should at least know about
<wpwrak>
have you boomified MM1 yet ?
<wolfspraul>
and deal with it in the most appropriate manner, without trying to be too clever as DocScrutinizer pointed out
<wpwrak>
trays are probably a "soft moq"
<wolfspraul>
bulk also, another type. if ugly, but I guess boom should know about it at least, one day.
<wpwrak>
reels are tricky because they defeat the "minimize cost" logic
<wolfspraul>
so it can warn you on the shopping list :-)
<wpwrak>
well, i could attach a price to non-reels. but that may backfire, too. need to think about it.
<wpwrak>
i think bulk is simply hopeless ;-)
<wolfspraul>
yes you could add the 7 USD digi-reel thing
<wolfspraul>
although unfortunately most smt places are not setup to charge those 7 usd, so it would still break down there
<wolfspraul>
and I wouldn't want adam to get into the 'reel it for 7 usd' business either.
<wpwrak>
or in whatever unit smt fab goodwill is measured ;-)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: well yes, but that's why - if boom knows about 'bulk' - it should list it in the shopping list? or there should be a way to tell boom bulk yes/no
<wolfspraul>
bulk is not urgent though, I just wanted to complete the packaging options
<wolfspraul>
cob comes in little chocolate bar packaging normally
<wolfspraul>
but that's for a different machine
<wolfspraul>
so we know about: tape, reel/digi-reel, ammopack, tray, bulk, direct die (not sure how it's called) for cob
<wolfspraul>
who knows maybe more :-)
<wpwrak>
(warn about bulk) yeah, can't hurt
<wolfspraul>
the problem with 'smt fab goodwill' is that they cannot charge, if I can I'd much rather pay the 7 usd / reel.
<wolfspraul>
I need their goodwill for the unforeseen hickups in small runs.
<wolfspraul>
not because my own process sucks and I arrive with a box full of tape snippets.
<wpwrak>
or maybe even have the possibility to exclude it, like the "reel only" wuns
<wpwrak>
s/wuns/runs/
<wolfspraul>
when you have a pick&place machine, someone needs to make the reel anyway
<wolfspraul>
so non-reel is only for hand soldering
<wpwrak>
next project: make a pick and place does doens't need all this :)
<wpwrak>
s/does does/that does/
<wolfspraul>
and with small parts nowadays 0402 or even smaller, you very quickly have a board where hand soldering is too painful (time consuming), even for a run of 10 or 20
<wolfspraul>
yeah
<wolfspraul>
you just throw whatever plastic bag you have in, and it magically gets it all right
<wpwrak>
something that works with my vials would be nice
<wpwrak>
vacuum pickup, then toss it on an examination plate. check with a camera what you got. if nothing, try again. if too many, return the extras. if it has the wrong orientation, pick up and toss again.
<wpwrak>
repeat until you succeed. then rotate and place.
<wolfspraul>
why can't packaging be another parameter like all the other parameters?
<wpwrak>
as long as this is fast enough that the solder paste doesn't dry out, that may be a viable option for small runs
<wpwrak>
the parameters are characteristics of the part. packaging is another layer.
<wolfspraul>
a part characteristic
<wolfspraul>
why is it another layer?
<wpwrak>
the same part could come in a number of ways. cut tape, reel, maybe also tube and even bulk.
<wpwrak>
it's always the same part inside.
<wolfspraul>
hmm. I somehow think the logic in characteristics and substitutions is enough to handle one more characteristic (packaging type). But I don't understand the innards well enough, maybe it makes no sense inside :-)
<wpwrak>
maybe i can do as digi-key does and just duplicate the part with different packaging options.
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wpwrak>
maybe not. this is one of the things to think about.
<wolfspraul>
I see an entry more like a 'warehouse lot'.
<wpwrak>
one issue with characteristics is that they don't get used for name-matched parts. so we'd need to change something there
<wolfspraul>
so if another order is made for the 'same' part, but different packaging, that's definitely a new warehouse lot number.
<wolfspraul>
even if the same part in same packaging is bought 6 months later - new warehouse lot number.
<wolfspraul>
if the same part in same packaging is bought from another source - new warehouse lot number.
<wpwrak>
at some point, this is okay
<wpwrak>
but if you take it too far, you can never reuse inventory, because there will be no two items that are really the same
<wolfspraul>
you need .equ to keep track of them
<wolfspraul>
well they are the same. for different packaging, we are already discussing how boom presents it to the boom user, and eventually we find a good way.
<wolfspraul>
the 'decision' will be manual then anyway
<wolfspraul>
for different sources, that's just to trace back problems, for boom this can always be the same
<wpwrak>
equ can't combine things. so if you have 1 reel for foo from last year and one reel from foo from this year, you need two reels, then it'll happily order two new ones.
<wpwrak>
so, lots of little things that play into thos
<wpwrak>
thIs
<wpwrak>
on the other hand, if you let if combine whatever it finds, then you get a bag of bulk, some of which may be on reels ;-)
<wolfspraul>
ok but that case can probably be made visible with some simple queries into boom
<wolfspraul>
it's all about making reasonable options visible quickly
<wolfspraul>
the actual decision is made manually
<wolfspraul>
if too few options are shown, not good. like we have with reels now.
<wpwrak>
yeah. another query engine, another user interface, another mechanism to suppress things you already saw and checked off :)
<wolfspraul>
if too many options are shown, at some point boom loses value and you may better start on digikey.com right away
<wolfspraul>
well sure if you can automate it even better
<wolfspraul>
anyway, I just wanted to say at first sight, it looks like the characteristics can handle packaging types
<wolfspraul>
but I may be wrong, awaiting your wisdom... :-)
<wpwrak>
i'm looking for broad concepts that squash as many of those small things as possible. otherwise, you get some byzantine system where each special case somewhere in the supply chain is a special case in the bom system. that's the fast lane to hell :)
<wolfspraul>
fair enough. the current boom is good and clean and powerful. keep it that way.
<wpwrak>
(characteristics) they're close, yes. if it wasn't for part name matching, they would be an even better match.
<wolfspraul>
ok
<wpwrak>
`alright. time for breakfast now :)
<wolfspraul>
enjoy
<wolfspraul>
sourcing that is easy!
<wpwrak>
(sourcing brakfast) shold be fun to go to the bakery and ask for their MOQ and the packaging options ;-)
<wolfspraul>
it's just that the costs are not properly present/factored in inside boom
<wolfspraul>
but we had that... enjoy breakfast, I'm calling it a day...
<kyak>
xiangfu: hi
<xiangfu>
kyak: hi
<kyak>
xiangfu: everything is bad :)
<kyak>
first of all, an openwrt dev has renamed gettext and libiconv to gettext-full and libiconv-full. Then, they created gettext (libintl) and libiconv as stubs
<kyak>
we got a lot of problems now
<kyak>
a lot of programs that DEPENDS on libintl or libiconv will be now either ilnks against stubs or will not link at all
<kyak>
*linked
<kyak>
for example, fbterm won't build
<kyak>
other programs might build, but will lack for certain features
<kyak>
now, we can  enable full version of gettext and libiconv, but they will build after those programs
<kyak>
thus making those full version completely useless
<xiangfu>
kyak: hmm.. don't know that yet. I just check my daily build since 1215. all build fail. :(
<kyak>
yep.
<kyak>
you should setup some e-mail notification for failed build :)
<xiangfu>
kyak: yes.
<kyak>
xiangfu: so we can't either add libiconv-full to DEPENDS of libiconv and libintl-fulll to libintl
<kyak>
oh..
<kyak>
no
<xiangfu>
kyak: too bad. there is a disk error in my pc. I need restart my pc. wait me one memont.
<kyak>
i think we have one option - it is traverse thourgh all feeds renaming those libs to *-full in DEPENDS
<kyak>
sure
<kyak>
these are all problems that we face because upstream is thinking about openwrt as a distro for routers
<kyak>
it is meants to be super cut off
<kyak>
this problems will continue to happend
<xiangfu>
kyak: hi. I am back.
<xiangfu>
kyak: they change the name to "/usr/lib/libiconv-full/"
<kyak>
hm
<kyak>
yes, that too
<kyak>
now it is even worse than i though
<kyak>
y
<kyak>
*thought
<xiangfu>
so many package is using "-I$(STAGING_DIR)/usr/lib/libiconv/include" :(
<kyak>
yes!
<xiangfu>
let me check the openwrt mailing list first. see if someone already report
<kyak>
xiangfu: we will have to struggle with such things all the time
<kyak>
when upstream is leaning towards cutting off
<kyak>
reducing the functionality
<kyak>
etc
<kyak>
i'm thinkinh about some flag
<kyak>
like @I_HAS_CRAPPY_ROUTER
<kyak>
then it would use those stub libs everywhere
<kyak>
otherwise, it would build and link against full versions
<xiangfu>
kyak: maybe they should rename those package to libiconv-stub. :)
<kyak>
now that's a great idea!
<kyak>
you see, they made that stub libs - and many programs from feeds refused to build. then they started adding some things in those stubs, so they are not actually stubs anymore
<kyak>
this can be seen so well from svn log
<kyak>
i'm not mentioning that the patch to strip some charsets is still there in the full version of libiconv...
<kyak>
for some reason
<kyak>
so it's still not "full" as the meaning of this word impiles
<kyak>
and i wonder how they decided which charsets can be stripped and which should be left
<kyak>
really, every time i see a software that is not i18n-aware, i get angry. this is less and less often now when utf-8 is taking its positions, but still there are a lot of developers there thinking "ASCII"
<xiangfu>
kyak: hmm..
<kyak>
xiangfu: sorry, need to go now. .see you later!
<xiangfu>
kyak: I saw they are try to remove all the code like "-L$(STAGING_DIR)/usr/lib/libintl/lib"
<xiangfu>
kyak: ok. I will take a look of the tunk code history. then we talk it later. what should we do :)
<kyak>
yes, such code shouldn't be there...
<xiangfu>
kyak: see you.
<kyak>
bb :)
<qnrq>
I'm looking for the openwrt-xburst-u-boot.bin file, according to http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/xburst-tools/README_FILES_MOVED.txt all xburst-tools files have been moved, but I can't find the file at the new location and all wiki pages point to the old url that returns 404. does anyone know where I can find the file I need? :-)
<lekernel>
with its homodyne microwave tx/rx combo and its AVR-based controller (on which the ISP pins are easily accessible) it looks like it's MEANT to be hacked
<lekernel>
it's also dirt cheap, I guess Mattel wanted to make money on the other "hot wheels" series toys
<lekernel>
but from what I can read on the internet, only nerds and physicists bought that radar gun and they didn't sell it for long ;)
<wpwrak>
;-))))
<wpwrak>
got any specific use in mind ?
<lekernel>
try to make a synthetic aperture radar out of it
<lekernel>
(don't remember if I sent you that link already)
<wpwrak>
hm,, so sort of a depth camera. 1.4 in resolution. quite coarse. would you use this for things like scanning walls for pipes and such ?
<lekernel>
no, basically to play with microwaves and signal processing
<wpwrak>
you'd need something around 1/2 in for wall scanning if you also want to find electrical pipes. but it's probably easy to increase resolution by evaluating multiple samples.
<wpwrak>
ah, basic research :)
<lekernel>
next version should use a 77GHz module from a car cruise control system, some very decent A/D converters and large amounts of processing power
<lekernel>
yeah, basic research
<lekernel>
I've done too little of it lately, I was too busy with milkymist...
<wpwrak>
zrafa: the "hello.c" example is a bit misleading. the way you present it, it suggests that your code has to live somewhere under the jlime toolchain directory.
<wpwrak>
lekernel: indeed. i noticed a lack of progress in dark matter research :)
<wpwrak>
(wall scanner) if such a thing could be built cheaply, that could actually be quite a commercial success. right now, the best you can find are some 2D scanners (1D: direction of scanner movement, 2D: depth), and they're already in the USD 1000 range.
<lekernel>
it would kick ass on things like AR Drone or quadrukopter
<wpwrak>
a "wall camera". oh, and maybe add a "naked girls" option while you're it :-)
<lekernel>
ah, walls...
<wpwrak>
s/it/at it/
<lekernel>
didn't think of that. who would need it?
<wpwrak>
people who drill holes into walls
<wpwrak>
or who need to connect to existing pipes
<wpwrak>
or who need to add new pipes
<wpwrak>
if such a system could produced a halfway decent image, preferably with very good depth resolution (so that you can choose a short screw, in case the pipe is far away), i think that could sell for quite a price.
<wpwrak>
(uses) also to see if a wall has steel reinforcements and where they are (so you don't try to make the hole for, say, the A/C's drin pipe just through one of these iron bars)
<wpwrak>
if the system can detect changes in material density, that would mean even more uses. e.g., find hollow spots or - in older constructions - wood beams
<wpwrak>
you
<wpwrak>
'd probably need good density detection also for plastic pipes. they're sometimes used instead of metal. easier to work with.
<wpwrak>
hmm, 50 mil ribbon cable heats up from 30 C to ~ 60 C if i feed it 3.2 A. if i double that, i get thermal runaway (stopped at 200 C, where the plastic starts melting)
<wpwrak>
this means that i can use ribbon cable for my ignitors. excellent :-)
<wpwrak>
add a pair of leds to each ignitor and i can test the connectivity with a current limit of 20 mA. then kick the current limit and rockets away :)
<qwebirc65606>
hi all
<tronix286>
i have board based on jz4725b processor and i tried to compile ucos OS
<tronix286>
from official Ingenic FTP. But no success. Many missing files, headers , etc...
<larsc>
we've only used linux on the nanonote
<tronix286>
First, i tried to compile a linux kernel, yes. With a few changes in u-boot and kernel I did it, I got start Qtopia. But my device do not have touchscreen, so Qtopia is not good for me
<tronix286>
Also i compiled Mplayer from sources and again no success - i didn't see anythink on the screen. build.jz file have JZ4740, JZ4750 and JZ4755 targets only, not my jz4725b
<tronix286>
Does anyone know where I can download the latest version Ucos or minios? If you can help, please connect with me by e-mail: tronix286 @ rambler.ru. Thanks.
<kristianpaul>
i just moved from a mta to mda when swich to fedora
<wolfspraul>
no reply :-)
<kristianpaul>
ahh is there
<kristianpaul>
he gandi is not as fast as qi servrs :)
<wolfspraul>
ah so it was that mail I linked to
<kristianpaul>
yes sorry
<wolfspraul>
normally the web archives are fastest, although pipermail has some bugs too so sometimes mail in the archives get garbled
<kristianpaul>
I'm just bit nervous
<wolfspraul>
the mail delivery may be a bit slower, especially since mailman properly tags the mails as 'bulk' and some mail servers delay those mails a bit
<kristianpaul>
because i just migrate to fedora few days ago and i'm using new mda sofware (wich seemed to be simpler than mta one in debian :))
<wolfspraul>
for example it may take 1-30 minutes at google, in my experience
<kristianpaul>
oh ok
<wolfspraul>
also many mail servers reply with "busy, try again later" or so, and then the qi mail server may try again 5, 10, 15 minutes later
<kristianpaul>
ouch
<wolfspraul>
maybe that response is already because they see the 'bulk' header, don't know
<kristianpaul>
ah yes thats the rule :)
<wolfspraul>
I think the system is working as meant to be.
<kristianpaul>
sure :)
<wolfspraul>
I wish pipermail had fewer bugs, not much activity in that project.
<zrafa>
wolfspraul: "Never heard of the Nanonote before, now I've ordered one" said a dingoo user.. I guess that many of them would like to have a similar device with qwerty keyboard.. so there are some buyers there surely :)
<kristianpaul>
so just missing packages source code?
<zrafa>
kristianpaul: yes, dingoo users always miss that the device does not have keyboard
<kristianpaul>
zrafa: and we nanonte users miss not have decent ganme-key pad ? ;)
<kristianpaul>
xiangfu: but packages sources? lets said i want recompile gpsd with some extra parameters?
<kristianpaul>
hmmm just x86_64?
<kristianpaul>
my kernel is 2.6.35.6-45.fc14.i686
<kristianpaul>
i guess is same trouble like in debian with x86_64 (not compatible binaries....)
<zrafa>
kristianpaul: haha :D
<zrafa>
kristianpaul: yes
<zrafa>
kristianpaul: in fact I am suffering that issue from openmoko times
<zrafa>
kristianpaul: I wrote a software framework which uses the accelerometers and touchscreen as gamepad on freerunner, but nobody was interested.. just people who use gamerunner distro.
<kristianpaul>
I wast close to OM that time but i read that alos happen with other wanted and developed (but not used aplications) ?
<kristianpaul>
s/was/wasnt/
<kristianpaul>
s/alos/also
<zrafa>
kristianpaul: the gamepad sw framework was useful to port any game to freerunner, and people would not have to modify the source code as they had to do before (modifying the control source code), but well, there were not many gamers, so few gamers devs finally
<kristianpaul>
xiangfu: ahh you have all my answers :-)
<kristianpaul>
SO the makefiles for those packages are in the openwrt SDK?
<kristianpaul>
hmm gpsd is not there
<kristianpaul>
ahh those are specific to xburst-owrt isnt?
<kristianpaul>
any way, i'll wait next image :) and hopefully x86 SDK :D
<xiangfu>
kristianpaul: yes. specific to nanonote image.
<xiangfu>
kristianpaul: don't know gpsd have included by OpenWrt. will add it to config.full_system
<kristianpaul>
xiangfu: gpsd is on owrt upstream since long time ago (i used it several times on linksys routers)
<kristianpaul>
s/upstream/feed
<wolfspraul>
andres-calderon: hi!
<wolfspraul>
I did a little more reorg, did you see it?
<wolfspraul>
I moved the camera and camera_psu schematic pages to their own daughterboard project
<wolfspraul>
I tried to keep the integrity of the schematics, but of course there are unconnected wires now...
<wolfspraul>
andres-calderon: my next plan was to remove the 2232, avr, fan*, but I wanted to see what your plans are, especially schedule.
<wolfspraul>
I can remove things, but I may leave some damage around them because I would not understand a clean separation of the parts I want to remove, and supporting components around them.
<wolfspraul>
what is your plan? what is the schedule? what do you want me to do?
<andres-calderon>
wolfspraul: I'll take care of deleting these components tomorrow.
<wolfspraul>
I want to help :-)
<wolfspraul>
maybe I look into the ERC bugs a little
<wolfspraul>
I think we should first finish the schematics, 100%, for both the Xue base board, and camera daughterboard
<andres-calderon>
I have an preliminar chips selection for PSU
<wolfspraul>
and also boomify the whole thing (I also would like to help there). The main problem in boomification will be to more precisely specify the values for some components.
<wolfspraul>
but one by one...
<wolfspraul>
andres-calderon: ok so I slow down for about 2 days, then you should have remove 2232/avr/fan/etc. Maybe I look into the ERC warnings now a bit, then more intensitely after you are done with the removal.
<wolfspraul>
tomorrow I am traveling most of the day anyway, from China to Germany.
<andres-calderon>
ok
<wolfspraul>
ah, about the fpc
<wolfspraul>
I think we should only do the 2mm header right now, no fpc connector
<wolfspraul>
fpc is more flexible, but also more breakable/source of problems
<wolfspraul>
unless we have a specific mechanical reason, I suggest to postpone the fpc
<wolfspraul>
even if we have a 2mm header, it's easy to make a little pcb with an fpc connector on it
<wolfspraul>
to build some prototypes that would require an fpc
<wolfspraul>
I just realized the other day how often fpcs are the source of problems
<wolfspraul>
in the early stage we are in, I'd leave them out, so we can focus on the other x00 problems we have
<andres-calderon>
I think the name of the directory of the Xue's daughter card is not good. I prefer something more general structure as daughter-boards/CISxxx, daughter-boards/CISyyyy
<andres-calderon>
i like 0.5mm pitch fpc connectors
<wolfspraul>
can we find something shorter than 'daughter-boards'?
<wolfspraul>
yes I agree, no problem with .5mm fpc and all. _BUT_ - in my experience fpcs are the source of many problems.
<wolfspraul>
at this point, we have lots of issues that require our attention. focus is the key for success.
<wolfspraul>
there is no hard mechanical requirement right now for a fpc.
<andres-calderon>
ok, i underestand.. 2mm block connector is good too
<wolfspraul>
I am trying to remove _EVERY_ source of problem possible in the first run.
<wolfspraul>
we need to make a board that boots, works - quickly
<wolfspraul>
then we learn, then improve, rinse and repeat...
<wolfspraul>
if we are taking on too much, we will crash down from the overload of problems to deal with at the same time
<andres-calderon>
wolfspraul: ok
<wolfspraul>
andres-calderon: about the connector, now that we have removed the cis, we can revisit the connector.
<wolfspraul>
should we even have a 60-pin connector?
<wolfspraul>
should we have two 25, or two 30 pin connectors?
<wolfspraul>
two different ones?
<wolfspraul>
which kind of wires to run to the connector (voltage domain, other types...)
<wolfspraul>
andres-calderon: can we document in the wiki what types of wires we are running to the expansion header?
<wolfspraul>
I changed the text to 'CONFIRMED BOOM P/N'
<wolfspraul>
not sure it's more or less clear now, but I understand it now :-)
<kristianpaul>
unless i got a better way of generate a syncronization signal divided by N
<wolfspraul>
one more question - how many hours do you think you spent in total going from the boom shopping list to the actual shopping list?
<adamw_>
wolfspraul, no problem
<adamw_>
with checking/confirming footprint/pins assignment...reading datasheet?
<adamw_>
from them to settle doen all ordering out...i guess 1.5 working days
<wolfspraul>
ok let's say 2 days, 16 hours
<wolfspraul>
we have 24 positions here
<wolfspraul>
so 30-40 minutes per position
<adamw_>
if just from shopping list to actual order...i may say 0.5 day
<wolfspraul>
nah it's OK, I am just trying to think about reality.
<wolfspraul>
not wishful thinking
<wolfspraul>
wishful thinking we press a button and are rich
<adamw_>
:)
<wolfspraul>
so if 24 positions took you 1.5 days, then the 92 positions of m1 for example would need roughly 5 days
<wolfspraul>
of course from your feedback I think we already have some good ideas how to improve boom, so it's cool
<wolfspraul>
there are many little details we can introduce to make the process faster and more efficient
<wolfspraul>
not just automated, but also make reviewing faster/more efficient
<adamw_>
yeah...like 'REEL'/'DIGI-REEL'..or later tray
<wolfspraul>
like dsv
<wolfspraul>
yes sure, the whole reel thing. that's already clear.
<kristianpaul>
ahh talked too fast shifiting still not enought
<kristianpaul>
shifting*
<adamw_>
i still quite don't know real work of 'dsv' & 'boom'...but well...I haven't to see what connection between sch and boom.
<wolfspraul>
one by one
<wolfspraul>
right now we are just collecting URLs to PDF in BOOKSHELF, for easy downloading and quick viewing
<adamw_>
so once I see more sch in KiCad. I'll see it.
<wolfspraul>
dsv is not connected to boom right now
<adamw_>
well...i need to study AI file again..cu
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (item number) awk if your friend ;-))
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (adam's checking time) part of that is actually what i would consider "review". you can't automate this. and it's dangerous to just "trust boom to know what it's doing" :)
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: maybe we should only have the revision for the main 'packages' feed?
<wolfspraul>
but not for phone, efl, desktop and xfce
<wolfspraul>
otherwise I am wondering who will maintain/update the revision fixing for phone/efl/desktop/xfce, if we are even including packages from those...
<wpwrak>
(inventory) git sounds good, yes
<wpwrak>
(tools) the definitely should help. e.g., help with "dumb" tasks, like translating from cut tape to reel or such. but that's mainly to prevent boredom and stupid mistakes. the review, which is what should take most of the time, will stay