<wpwrak_>
wolfspraul: hmm, in yesterday's discussion about MM1 you said you plan to slice any dollar you can off the price of MM1. that's very charitable, but isn't this a bit at odds with the idea of finding a sustainable path for making the whole operation self-financing ? :)
<kyak>
xiangfu: hi! how was your build yesterday?
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak_: he :-) you become a capitalist? :-)
<wolfspraul>
I just expressed my general business belief that technology is always on a trajectory to zero. Moore's Law.
<wolfspraul>
so of course we need to make money, those two things go in parallel I think. bring price down, volumes up.
<wpwrak_>
(capitalist) heh :) i kinda like the concept of selling new things at as high a price the market will tolerate. i think that's something steve once said. it makes sense. price is probably not the limiting factor at that time anyway, so it's a good moment to recover some of the investment.
<wolfspraul>
true
<wpwrak_>
the trajectory for MMn will (hopefully :) be a longish one. also depends a bit on how long this stays in FPGAs.
<wolfspraul>
that's why M1 will sell for 499 USD plus shipping
<wolfspraul>
as soon as it's complete, i.e. with a good case
<wolfspraul>
499 USD plus shipping is a high price
<wolfspraul>
but I want to keep it there for 6-12 months
<wolfspraul>
at that (high) price, unfortunately by the time it reaches someone in Europe, even with a EU distributor, it will be 700 EUR or more
<wolfspraul>
if we can get things going, after x months the price can (and must) go down, say from 499 to 399
<wolfspraul>
but that requires a lot of work, more efficient production testing, cheaper case, just streamline the whole process
<wpwrak_>
alright
<xiangfu>
kyak: the upstream 'gettext-0.18.1.1' have some error. :(
<wpwrak_>
efficiency and volume :)
<kyak>
xiangfu: huh?
<kyak>
xiangfu: i was wondering, why you removed freedroid from gmenu2x?
<xiangfu>
kyak: hmm.. it not run correct in my side.
<kyak>
what do you mean?
<xiangfu>
kyak: it's always stop at the loading ... screen.
<kyak>
ah, it's because you don't have swap enabled
<kyak>
there is a switch to run it without music
<kyak>
*sound
<kyak>
then it runs
<xiangfu>
oh. everytime I 1. add "-q" 2. Ctrl + z, 3 fg. then it's works fine.
<xiangfu>
since we don't enable the swap by default. so how about remove it form gmenu2x?
<kyak>
i think it's ok
<kyak>
too much for Ben :)
<kyak>
xiangfu: you are right, gettext won't build
<xiangfu>
kyak: I think we finish move data to openwrt-package.git.  add new packages to config.full_system , add more icons in gmenu2x.
<xiangfu>
kyak: so I would like start create the new openwrt release.
<kyak>
xiangfu: i'm still wondering why lynx and fbterm got out of full_system...
<xiangfu>
me too. we should add them.
<xiangfu>
I think we should enable package that compile fine in build host (fidelio.qi-hardware.com)
<xiangfu>
kyak: I will just enable them. then send one email to Mirko. :)
<kyak>
xiangfu: he will be surprised, i think :)
<kyak>
xiangfu: is there a bug report already for gettext?
<wolfspraul>
maybe we can try to find out why it broke for Mirko
<wolfspraul>
one was missing iconv.h, if I remember correctly
<wolfspraul>
if it breaks for Mirko, it might also break for others, so the more careful we are the better
<wolfspraul>
nothing more frustrating that a broken build in a 10+h build process
<kyak>
wolfspraul: i didn't get any feedback from mirko
<kyak>
i think he re-run build and it built fine
<kyak>
OH
<kyak>
now i remember
<kyak>
he built it against 0.9.32
<kyak>
and i suggested enabling locale there
<xiangfu>
yes.  need enable the LOCATE in uclibc.
<kyak>
but he didn't answer either...
<xiangfu>
kyak: so far, not bug report in openwrt.
<viric>
how good is the locale support in openwrt?
<kyak>
it's zero support in trunk openwrt
<kyak>
routers, remember?
<viric>
:)
<viric>
The GNU locale system, unfortunately, allows locale choosing only at runtime
<wolfspraul>
kyak: what do you mean with zero support in trunk openwrt?
<kyak>
xiangfu: having a look at that line in gettext, it's strange to me why we even get inside of #Â Â if __GLIBC__ >= 2
<kyak>
wolfspraul: it means that uclibc has locale support disabled, busybox is built without widechar support, most apps are linked against "narrow" ncurses
<kyak>
it's "optimized" to the maximum, and i can't argue against it
<kyak>
routers, remember?
<wolfspraul>
kyak: sorry, Adobe Flash hung my machine... what do you mean with zero support in trunk openwrt?
<kyak>
wolfspraul: it means that uclibc has locale support disabled, busybox is built without widechar support, most apps are linked against "narrow" ncurses
<kyak>
it's "optimized" to the maximum, and i can't argue against it
<viric>
I use glibc in nanonixos.
<viric>
not very optimized to the maximum :)
<kyak>
Adobe Flash attack -2 :)
<wolfspra1l>
yeah, crazy
<wolfspra1l>
should we switch to uclibc 0.9.32 as well?
<kyak>
heh
<kyak>
we tried once to switch to uclibc 0.9.32, it didn't work very well
<kyak>
besides, we are following the backfire branch, not the openwrt trunk
<kyak>
and it uses 0.9.30.1
<viric>
why would you want 0.9.32?
<kyak>
it has that "nptl" support, which breaks things for some applications and fixes for others :)
<wolfspraul>
ok, following backfire sounds like a strong argument
<xiangfu>
kyak: I just found there is new branch in openwrt upstream named: uclibc_nptl
<kyak>
i think mirko just created the remotes/origin/uclibc_nptl, trying to figure out this
<kyak>
yes :)
<kyak>
xiangfu: ah, so it came from upstream..
<xiangfu>
kyak: oh. sorry. not upstream. it's in openwrt-xburst.git
<xiangfu>
too many remote in local.  :)
<kyak>
ok :)
<xiangfu>
kyak: since the code is inside "if __GLIBC__ >= 2",  if we can just disable those code?
<kyak>
xiangfu: what if it IS build with glibc?
<kyak>
maybe need to figure out why uclibc pretends to be a glibc :)
<kyak>
there was no problem with gettext-0.17
<xiangfu>
kyak: yes. right. that is the root cause.
<kyak>
maybe need to figure out why this change was introduced..
<kyak>
i have a feeling that there is not such error when uclibc has locale disabled..
<kyak>
i doubt someone would commit such crap
<xiangfu>
kyak: feeds/packages/libs/gettext$ more patches/120-uclibc-nolocale.patch  check this patch
<xiangfu>
kyak: it compile fine. let's see how the build going. :)
<kyak>
xiangfu: note the ../libtool: line 46: -c: command not found strange line before it.. i don't know if this might cause problems as well
<xiangfu>
kyak: there are a lot of them.
<kyak>
xiangfu: have to go now.. good luck to you :)
<xiangfu>
kyak: see you.
<qi-bot>
[commit] Xiangfu Liu: Revert "disable fbterm and lynx, since they do not compile... latter one should be easy to fix (missing iconv.h)" http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/6862ea4
<wolfspraul>
qwebirc57237: too many mails, sorry I'm a little behind
<wolfspraul>
qwebirc57237: you there?
<qwebirc57237>
yep)
<wolfspraul>
qwebirc57237: email me again at wolfgang@sharism.cc
<qwebirc57237>
ok, one sec..
<qwebirc57237>
done
<kristianpaul>
is  scripts/feeds update -a and scripts/feeds install -a comparable to cp data/qi_lb60/conf/feeds.conf ./  && make package/symlinks ?
<kristianpaul>
i said because i compiled and got missing some packages using just cp ... and make package/symlinks
<Ornotermes>
the price is for that many as there is in stock right?
<wpwrak_>
i would guess it's for the quantity that was last bought (into that stock), but i don't really know.
<Ornotermes>
then it's not of too big use... i think
<Ornotermes>
i was thinking what a bare ben pcb would cost
<wpwrak_>
i'm not even sure these prices have anything to do with the actual component cost for the ben. i.e., i don't know if wolfgang buys parts and gives them to the manufacturers or if the manufacturers buy (all or some of) the parts themselves.
<Ornotermes>
no case or lcm
<Ornotermes>
ok
<wpwrak_>
case and lcm may not add a lot to the price, compared to the extra cost of bundling a separate product
<wpwrak_>
but i guess you'd have to ask wolfgang if he has any spare boards he'd like to sell
<Ornotermes>
i was thinking what it would cost to make someting lake a linux powered arduino
<wpwrak_>
hmm, like SIE ? :)
<Ornotermes>
but in the same shape and size as an arduino mega 2560
<Ornotermes>
or even a regular arduino
<wpwrak_>
why the same shape/size ?
<Ornotermes>
i don't really know what to answer to that :P
<Ornotermes>
but i think that would be the shat that would be easiest to market
<Ornotermes>
s/shat/shape
<Ornotermes>
and there is a lot of different shields to add anyting from leds to network
<wpwrak_>
dunno. it's a considerably more powerful system ...
<wpwrak_>
oh, the shields may be difficult. different voltage domains and all that
<Ornotermes>
good point
<Ornotermes>
but i would like a small and cheap linux module to build in to different things
<wpwrak_>
sie shouldn't be too bad for that. if you want simpler, you can use a ben plus breakout board
<Ornotermes>
sie looks a bit expencive
<Ornotermes>
i don't know how realistic it is but i was thinking less than 50 USD
<wpwrak_>
dunno how cheap one can make it. besides the fpga, most things on it are stuff you'd want/need anyway.
<wpwrak_>
usd 50 definitely without fpga :)
<Ornotermes>
i have ssen many linux mudules but they usually are to expencive for building in to a single project
<wpwrak_>
well, you have the ben as s bottom line. there's a lot you can do with that already ...
<Ornotermes>
thats why i wonder what just pcbs cost
<Ornotermes>
bot ofcource all that flash is a bit overkill
<wpwrak_>
just the ben board would look a little odd. keyboard contacts on the top without a keyboard. connectors at seemingly random places. no holes for feet/standoffs. etc.
<wpwrak_>
your most economical choice might be to just use a ben and make a nice breakout board that connects to your circuit.
<Ornotermes>
yes, but the price might give a good idea what it would cost to make another board with similar components
<wpwrak_>
at what quantity ? :)
<Ornotermes>
i don't know, but i guess one would have to calculate on 1000
<wpwrak_>
that's very little. your "simplified" board would probably be more expensive than a ben.
<wpwrak_>
the ben is priced for something like 3000 units.
<Ornotermes>
oh, ok
<wpwrak_>
mass production pricing is tricky :)
<Ornotermes>
indeed
<wpwrak_>
i think wolfgang is sitting on something like 800+ bens. all tested, boxed, ready to ship. so i think any plan to put these to good use would be welcome :)
<wpwrak_>
each existing ben sold means money. each potential reduced ben sold means yet another big upfront investment first.
<Ornotermes>
yeah
<Ornotermes>
to bad one can't make use och all interesting buses
<Ornotermes>
use of*
<wpwrak_>
yes, that's really a pity
<lekernel>
good. Ron is taking the troll bait on LibreWRT
<lekernel>
hahaha
<wpwrak_>
lekernel: they're asking for "feedback". there's your opportunity ;-)
<lekernel>
ha, no, tonight i'm busy playing with the video input on milkymist
<lekernel>
which works really great btw :)
<lekernel>
librewrt discussions (or developments I'd even say hahaha) are fun but don't get anything done
<wpwrak_>
(video in) sounds nice. what can it do ?
<wpwrak_>
(librewrt) it does seem a bit redundant, doesn't it ? particularly since openwrt already has that famous PATENT flag
<wpwrak_>
but i guess for every level of political correctness, there's still another one where people would be quite shocked about your standards ...