<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: drl2gp.c: added parsing of INCH/METRIC in header http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/a865854
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: drl2gp.c: detect and report errors when writing to standard output http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/b75611a
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: drl2gp.c: implemented drill file filtering, some code restructuring http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/6f040f6
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: drl2gp.c: implemented drill file filtering, some code restructuring http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/6000257
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: drl2gp: added README and a copy of the GPLv2 http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/c411262
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:cae-tools http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/f6cf2e1
<wpwrak_> wolfspraul: hmm, in yesterday's discussion about MM1 you said you plan to slice any dollar you can off the price of MM1. that's very charitable, but isn't this a bit at odds with the idea of finding a sustainable path for making the whole operation self-financing ? :)
<kyak> xiangfu: hi! how was your build yesterday?
<wolfspraul> wpwrak_: he :-) you become a capitalist? :-)
<wolfspraul> I just expressed my general business belief that technology is always on a trajectory to zero. Moore's Law.
<wolfspraul> so of course we need to make money, those two things go in parallel I think. bring price down, volumes up.
<wpwrak_> (capitalist) heh :) i kinda like the concept of selling new things at as high a price the market will tolerate. i think that's something steve once said. it makes sense. price is probably not the limiting factor at that time anyway, so it's a good moment to recover some of the investment.
<wolfspraul> true
<wpwrak_> the trajectory for MMn will (hopefully :) be a longish one. also depends a bit on how long this stays in FPGAs.
<wolfspraul> that's why M1 will sell for 499 USD plus shipping
<wolfspraul> as soon as it's complete, i.e. with a good case
<wolfspraul> 499 USD plus shipping is a high price
<wolfspraul> but I want to keep it there for 6-12 months
<wolfspraul> at that (high) price, unfortunately by the time it reaches someone in Europe, even with a EU distributor, it will be 700 EUR or more
<wolfspraul> if we can get things going, after x months the price can (and must) go down, say from 499 to 399
<wolfspraul> but that requires a lot of work, more efficient production testing, cheaper case, just streamline the whole process
<wpwrak_> alright
<xiangfu> kyak: the upstream 'gettext-0.18.1.1' have some error. :(
<wpwrak_> efficiency and volume :)
<kyak> xiangfu: huh?
<kyak> xiangfu: i was wondering, why you removed freedroid from gmenu2x?
<xiangfu> kyak: hmm.. it not run correct in my side.
<kyak> what do you mean?
<xiangfu> kyak: it's always stop at the loading ... screen.
<kyak> ah, it's because you don't have swap enabled
<kyak> there is a switch to run it without music
<kyak> *sound
<kyak> then it runs
<xiangfu> oh. everytime I 1. add "-q" 2. Ctrl + z, 3 fg. then it's works fine.
<xiangfu> since we don't enable the swap by default. so how about remove it form gmenu2x?
<kyak> i think it's ok
<kyak> too much for Ben :)
<kyak> xiangfu: you are right, gettext won't build
<xiangfu> kyak: I think we finish move data to openwrt-package.git.  add new packages to config.full_system , add more icons in gmenu2x.
<xiangfu> kyak: so I would like start create the new openwrt release.
<kyak> xiangfu: i'm still wondering why lynx and fbterm got out of full_system...
<xiangfu> me too. we should add them.
<xiangfu> I think we should enable package that compile fine in build host (fidelio.qi-hardware.com)
<xiangfu> kyak: I will just enable them. then send one email to Mirko. :)
<kyak> xiangfu: he will be surprised, i think :)
<kyak> xiangfu: is there a bug report already for gettext?
<wolfspraul> maybe we can try to find out why it broke for Mirko
<wolfspraul> one was missing iconv.h, if I remember correctly
<wolfspraul> if it breaks for Mirko, it might also break for others, so the more careful we are the better
<wolfspraul> nothing more frustrating that a broken build in a 10+h build process
<kyak> wolfspraul: i didn't get any feedback from mirko
<kyak> i think he re-run build and it built fine
<kyak> OH
<kyak> now i remember
<kyak> he built it against 0.9.32
<kyak> and i suggested enabling locale there
<xiangfu> yes.  need enable the LOCATE in uclibc.
<kyak> but he didn't answer either...
<xiangfu> kyak: so far, not bug report in openwrt.
<kyak> the discussion is almost from the beginning
<kyak> looks like our bug
<kyak> same line, even
<viric> how good is the locale support in openwrt?
<kyak> it's zero support in trunk openwrt
<kyak> routers, remember?
<viric> :)
<viric> The GNU locale system, unfortunately, allows locale choosing only at runtime
<wolfspraul> kyak: what do you mean with zero support in trunk openwrt?
<kyak> xiangfu: having a look at that line in gettext, it's strange to me why we even get inside of #  if __GLIBC__ >= 2
<kyak> wolfspraul: it means that uclibc has locale support disabled, busybox is built without widechar support, most apps are linked against "narrow" ncurses
<kyak> it's "optimized" to the maximum, and i can't argue against it
<kyak> routers, remember?
<wolfspraul> kyak: sorry, Adobe Flash hung my machine... what do you mean with zero support in trunk openwrt?
<kyak> wolfspraul: it means that uclibc has locale support disabled, busybox is built without widechar support, most apps are linked against "narrow" ncurses
<kyak> it's "optimized" to the maximum, and i can't argue against it
<viric> I use glibc in nanonixos.
<viric> not very optimized to the maximum :)
<kyak> Adobe Flash attack -2 :)
<wolfspra1l> yeah, crazy
<wolfspra1l> should we switch to uclibc 0.9.32 as well?
<kyak> heh
<kyak> we tried once to switch to uclibc 0.9.32, it didn't work very well
<kyak> besides, we are following the backfire branch, not the openwrt trunk
<kyak> and it uses 0.9.30.1
<viric> why would you want 0.9.32?
<kyak> it has that "nptl" support, which breaks things for some applications and fixes for others :)
<wolfspraul> ok, following backfire sounds like a strong argument
<xiangfu> kyak: I just found there is new branch in openwrt upstream named: uclibc_nptl
<kyak> i think mirko just created the remotes/origin/uclibc_nptl, trying to figure out this
<kyak> yes :)
<kyak> xiangfu: ah, so it came from upstream..
<xiangfu> kyak: oh. sorry. not upstream. it's in openwrt-xburst.git
<xiangfu> too many remote in local.  :)
<kyak> ok :)
<xiangfu> kyak: since the code is inside "if __GLIBC__ >= 2",  if we can just disable those code?
<kyak> xiangfu: what if it IS build with glibc?
<kyak> maybe need to figure out why uclibc pretends to be a glibc :)
<kyak> there was no problem with gettext-0.17
<xiangfu> kyak: yes. right. that is the root cause.
<kyak> maybe need to figure out why this change was introduced..
<kyak> i have a feeling that there is not such error when uclibc has locale disabled..
<kyak> i doubt someone would commit such crap
<xiangfu> kyak: feeds/packages/libs/gettext$ more patches/120-uclibc-nolocale.patch  check this patch
<kyak> we have this __UCLIBC_HAS_LOCALE__
<kyak> the setlocale function must work
<kyak> xiangfu:  i think i found it
<kyak> we should change if __GLIBC__ >= 2 to
<kyak> if __GLIBC__ >= 2 && !defined __UCLIBC__
<kyak> it's explained why in the link above
<kyak> seems like a clean solution to me..
<xiangfu> kyak: great.
<xiangfu> kyak: testing.
<qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: gmenu2x: add sdcv icon http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/ba2629d
<xiangfu> kyak: it compile fine. let's see how the build going. :)
<kyak> xiangfu: note the ../libtool: line 46: -c: command not found strange line before it.. i don't know if this might cause problems as well
<xiangfu> kyak: there are a lot of them.
<kyak> xiangfu: have to go now.. good luck to you :)
<xiangfu> kyak: see you.
<qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: Revert "disable fbterm and lynx, since they do not compile... latter one should be easy to fix (missing iconv.h)" http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/6862ea4
<qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system add wtime http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/5a9fb2d
<wolfspraul> Ornotermes: you mentioned one area Xue could be good for is 'time lapse'. What do you mean?
<Ornotermes> when one take series of pictures over a long time and then play them back as a video
<Ornotermes> growing plants is a common example
<wolfspraul> oh you mean like a picture every 10 minutes, and then play them at 15 fps or so?
<Ornotermes> yes
<wolfspraul> ok got it
<Ornotermes> but with an xue it could easy me weeks or months
<wolfspraul> wait let me add this to the 'use cases' in the wiki...
<wolfspraul> Ornotermes: added to http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Xu%C3%A9#Use_Cases
<wolfspraul> (also the hot mirror thing you mentioned to me)
<wolfspraul> bbiab
<wolfspraul> Ornotermes: back :-) so yeah, thanks for those use cases, if you have more things in mind for Xue, please share with us...
<Ornotermes> wolfspraul: it could probably be programmed to take HDR-pictures with a single button klick
<Ornotermes> wolfspraul: if there is GPIO left it could be built to use external triggers, like laser triggers
<wolfspraul> no worries about that, we have an entire 50-pin header wired up from the fpga
<Ornotermes> nice :)
<qwebirc57237> Hello. Who can tell me where i can get "Jz4725B Programming Manual". I really need it :(
<qwebirc57237> I asked wolfgang, but he still not reply to me...
<wolfspraul> qwebirc57237: too many mails, sorry I'm a little behind
<wolfspraul> qwebirc57237: you there?
<qwebirc57237> yep)
<wolfspraul> qwebirc57237: email me again at wolfgang@sharism.cc
<qwebirc57237> ok, one sec..
<qwebirc57237> done
<kristianpaul> is  scripts/feeds update -a and scripts/feeds install -a comparable to cp data/qi_lb60/conf/feeds.conf ./  && make package/symlinks ?
<kristianpaul> i said because i compiled and got missing some packages using just cp ... and make package/symlinks
<kristianpaul> ahh same error http://paste.debian.net/101989/
<kristianpaul> Any ne had sucefully compiled last xburst owrt ?
<kristianpaul> s/ne/one
<kyak> you need data/files & config.full_system
<kyak> feeds.conf is just a list of feeds to use
<kyak> needed both for feeds update -a && feeds install -a and make package/symlinks that are basically the same
<kyak> kristianpaul: btw, these instructions are on wiki
<qi-bot> [commit] kyak: qstardict: disable mouse, fit Setting dialogue to 320x240 http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/5d704f5
<kristianpaul> kyak: http://paste.debian.net/101989/ did you saw this error before?
<Ornotermes> any one know what the parts in ben cost?
<wpwrak_> Ornotermes: this list has some prices: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Sharism_inventory
<Ornotermes> thanks
<Ornotermes> the price is for that many as there is in stock right?
<wpwrak_> i would guess it's for the quantity that was last bought (into that stock), but i don't really know.
<Ornotermes> then it's not of too big use... i think
<Ornotermes> i was thinking what a bare ben pcb would cost
<wpwrak_> i'm not even sure these prices have anything to do with the actual component cost for the ben. i.e., i don't know if wolfgang buys parts and gives them to the manufacturers or if the manufacturers buy (all or some of) the parts themselves.
<Ornotermes> no case or lcm
<Ornotermes> ok
<wpwrak_> case and lcm may not add a lot to the price, compared to the extra cost of bundling a separate product
<wpwrak_> but i guess you'd have to ask wolfgang if he has any spare boards he'd like to sell
<Ornotermes> i was thinking what it would cost to make someting lake a linux powered arduino
<wpwrak_> hmm, like SIE ? :)
<Ornotermes> but in the same shape and size as an arduino mega 2560
<Ornotermes> or even a regular arduino
<wpwrak_> why the same shape/size ?
<Ornotermes> i don't really know what to answer to that :P
<Ornotermes> but i think that would be the shat that would be easiest to market
<Ornotermes> s/shat/shape
<Ornotermes> and there is a lot of different shields to add anyting from leds to network
<wpwrak_> dunno. it's a considerably more powerful system ...
<wpwrak_> oh, the shields may be difficult. different voltage domains and all that
<Ornotermes> good point
<Ornotermes> but i would like a small and cheap linux module to build in to different things
<wpwrak_> sie shouldn't be too bad for that. if you want simpler, you can use a ben plus breakout board
<Ornotermes> sie looks a bit expencive
<Ornotermes> i don't know how realistic it is but i was thinking less than 50 USD
<wpwrak_> dunno how cheap one can make it. besides the fpga, most things on it are stuff you'd want/need anyway.
<wpwrak_> usd 50 definitely without fpga :)
<Ornotermes> i have ssen many linux mudules but they usually are to expencive for building in to a single project
<wpwrak_> well, you have the ben as s bottom line. there's a lot you can do with that already ...
<Ornotermes> thats why i wonder what just pcbs cost
<Ornotermes> bot ofcource all that flash is a bit overkill
<wpwrak_> just the ben board would look a little odd. keyboard contacts on the top without a keyboard. connectors at seemingly random places. no holes for feet/standoffs. etc.
<wpwrak_> your most economical choice might be to just use a ben and make a nice breakout board that connects to your circuit.
<Ornotermes> yes, but the price might give a good idea what it would cost to make another board with similar components
<wpwrak_> at what quantity ? :)
<Ornotermes> i don't know, but i guess one would have to calculate on 1000
<wpwrak_> that's very little. your "simplified" board would probably be more expensive than a ben.
<wpwrak_> the ben is priced for something like 3000 units.
<Ornotermes> oh, ok
<wpwrak_> mass production pricing is tricky :)
<Ornotermes> indeed
<wpwrak_> i think wolfgang is sitting on something like 800+ bens. all tested, boxed, ready to ship. so i think any plan to put these to good use would be welcome :)
<wpwrak_> each existing ben sold means money. each potential reduced ben sold means yet another big upfront investment first.
<Ornotermes> yeah
<Ornotermes> to bad one can't make use och all interesting buses
<Ornotermes> use of*
<wpwrak_> yes, that's really a pity
<lekernel> good. Ron is taking the troll bait on LibreWRT
<lekernel> hahaha
<wpwrak_> lekernel: they're asking for "feedback". there's your opportunity ;-)
<lekernel> ha, no, tonight i'm busy playing with the video input on milkymist
<lekernel> which works really great btw :)
<lekernel> librewrt discussions (or developments I'd even say hahaha) are fun but don't get anything done
<wpwrak_> (video in) sounds nice. what can it do ?
<wpwrak_> (librewrt) it does seem a bit redundant, doesn't it ? particularly since openwrt already has that famous PATENT flag
<wpwrak_> but i guess for every level of political correctness, there's still another one where people would be quite shocked about your standards ...
<wpwrak_> i'm almost tempted to reply to ron :)
<wpwrak_> heh, i like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lrm0QDbRAc&NR=1
<lekernel> yeah, we're getting there :)
<wpwrak_> of course, this one looks better :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyEyqSMlyRY&NR=1
<wpwrak_> (also works better by not trying to match the timing)
<lekernel> ha, I use that one in talks to keep people focused ;)
<wpwrak_> focused on what ? ;-)
<kristianpaul> (video in) wow looks awesome
<kristianpaul> i dint knewt VJ do that btw
<kristianpaul> i always tought about keyboard..
<kristianpaul> cool
<kristianpaul> lekernel: what kind of video camera arrangement are you using?
<kristianpaul> ohh this is new qi-wolfgang
<wpwrak_> the other, the submarine captain ;-)