<wolfspraul> kyak: hey there, happy new 2011 again... :-)
<wolfspraul> I'm reading Jane's audio record mails, and I was thinking about mplayer/mencoder. Have you made any headway on mplayer?
<kyak> wolfspraul: hi, happy new year :)
<kyak> splitting mplayer into "clean" and "full" (i.e. with patented) build is in my todo list
<kyak> but no progress so far :)
<kyak> maybe these holidays i will have some time for Ben. The end of the year was soo busy
<kyak> holidays in Russia are ten days long.. starting from today!
<wolfspraul> ten days, nice
<wolfspraul> sure no rush, we get to it...
<kyak> yeah, very nice!
<kyak> wolfspraul: i guess you spent just several hours in Moscow on your way from China to Germany?
<kyak> there were problems here in airports for the last few days
<wolfspraul> yes, but I was there before that happened, luckily
<wolfspraul> I used to be in Moscow (and Leningrad) quite a bit in the 80's
<wolfspraul> but haven't been there since 20+ years, only stopover now
<wolfspraul> one day I'll go back...
<wolfspraul> in terms of free software scene, I think Russia is actually pretty good
<wolfspraul> I also think that there could be a really strong free/copyleft hardware scene there
<wolfspraul> the #1 problem as always is customs though
<wolfspraul> the way Russian customs behaves is very damaging to innovation. I fully understand the need of a government to make money, but causing trouble to tiny volume products, like anything new, will not ever make them serious money, and as a downside it kills innovation.
<wolfspraul> so I guess importing into Russia is only easy once you are in the big volumes, once the product is already polished etc. Then customs can make its money, and Russian consumers can enjoy the product.
<kyak> oh yes, customs is such a headache
<wolfspraul> but what about the prototypes?
<wolfspraul> they don't understand how much they are damaging innovation, really
<wolfspraul> so we have a hard time getting 5 units of whatever into Russia, everybody suffers
<wolfspraul> kyak: at least you got your NanoNote! :-)
<kyak> it takes at least 3 weeks, and usually more, to get something from abroad
<wolfspraul> I totally believe in the potential for true innovation driven out of Russia, so whatever it takes we will try to overcome the customs problems...
<kyak> btw, GPL still doesn't have legal status in Russia
<kyak> i mean that its status is not defined from the legislative point of view.. and if you try to refer to GPL in court, it probably won't be taken into account
<wolfspraul> has it been translated to Russian?
<wolfspraul> how about the CC licenses?
<wolfspraul> maybe it's just that nobody is working on givine the GPL a more real/enforceable status in Russia...
<kyak> i'm sure GPL has been translated.. there are some ongoing discussions about its status
<kyak> yes, i think there is very low activity for opensource in Russia
<kyak> about the CC licenses, i think if you'd come to courts with that, a judge would say "what?"
<wolfspraul> don't say that
<wolfspraul> the CC has a very active international push
<wolfspraul> very different from fsf
<wolfspraul> so the cc sets up local chapters in each country, and they 'localize' the license
<wolfspraul> meaning not only a literal translation, but they try to write a 'local' version of the cc licenses that _mean_ the same thing as the global one, in the local jurisdiction
<wolfspraul> so when you pick a CC license, you are actually supposed to say which local version you pick, or 'Unported' for the global one
<kyak> hm, interesting!
<wolfspraul> so if there is a CC Russia chapter, then they work on that
<wolfspraul> CC is basically like the United Nations or so, a group of local chapters of lawyers, translating the licenses into local law
<wolfspraul> afaik the FSF is not doing anything like that, they only work on the English text
<wolfspraul> just google for 'cc russia'
<kyak> no "Russia" for selection \-
<kyak> so it's two years, no progress
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> yes but there is a group of people and they are working on it
<wolfspraul> yeah, seems maybe 50 countries or so
<wolfspraul> which means, like you said, for Russia you could only pick the 'Unported' license, with completely unclear/undefined legal status in Russia
<kristianpaul> morning :-)
<wolfspraul> morning
<kristianpaul> oh, are you doing Qi meeting on Werner's place this year too?
<wolfspraul> who knows, it's only January 1st...
<wpwrak> happy hangover version 20.11 ! ;-)
<wpwrak> kyak: (ten days holiday) you guys really know how to have a party ;-)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (russian customs) i guess it's a question of bribes ?
<wolfspraul> not sure
<wolfspraul> it's more a strange mix of a lot of things
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (l10n and gpl) somewhere in the back of my mind, a few neurons are firing when i think of translated gpl versions
<wpwrak> well, at least in germany, the gpl stands rock solid. at some courts, they probably already have a stamp saying "GPL VIOLATOR - GUILTY" ;-)
<wpwrak> it's actually fun how those folks try to wriggle out of the GPL. i transferred some copyrights / exclusive rights of stuff i did in the linux kernel to harald  and he used it in court. the opposition lawyers went as far as questioning my existence ;-)
<wpwrak> had they insisted on that point, i would have had to fly to germany to appear in court and basically say "hello, this is me", and wave my passport :)
<wpwrak> (i kinda wonder what the judges think when they get this sort of cases. the guys are generally not just red-handed but more like covered in blood. and then they try to argue that they weren't guilt on that one issue gpl-violations.org can charge them on)
<wpwrak> (covered in blood) e.g., they made some settop box in austria, i think for medical accounting. using free software. they treated it as if it was closed. someone sued. they lost. then they had to comply with the gpl, including the advertisement clause. the document that listed the stuff they used (and of which they had violated the license before) read like a "who is who" of the free software world.
<wpwrak> one fun aspect is that of course each of the copyright holders could sue violators individually. so the legal risk they incur by not complying is not a small one by any means.
<wolfspraul> ah, btw
<wolfspraul> I usually release my stuff under gpl v3 or up
<wolfspraul> but your --plot patch was v2 or up, so for the merged one that contained your code, I lowered it back to v2 or up
<wolfspraul> is it ok if we switch to v3 or up for the entire scripted patch?
<wolfspraul> I don't know wheter you say 'v2' on purpose or just an old habit...
<wpwrak> i always put v2+ on purpose, for compatibility
<wpwrak> dunno which license is actually the "right one" for kicad things. for patches, it ought to be the one of the "main" kicad
<kristianpaul> Linux compatibility? ;-)
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: my default is v3+, unless someone complains
<wolfspraul> so we leave it at v2+ then, no problem
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: compatibility with older things. e.g., you couldn't distribute v3 code in a v2+ program
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: yeah too bad :(
<wpwrak> i'm actually a bit unhappy that they broke the chain there. i would love to use v3, but there's a lot of v2 stuff out there. a transition period would have been nice.
<kristianpaul> May be stop tivoization was so urgent that no time for transition
<wpwrak> (stuff out there) plus, i may even recycle my own things in v2+ projects. some of which aren't legally owned by myself. by putting them under v3, i'd shoot my own foot.
<kristianpaul> Thats a good point..
<kristianpaul> Why not dual license?
<wolfspraul> I think werner exaggerates a little, this is the first time that I hear that you cannot combine v3 and v2+ sources.
<wolfspraul> what's the '+' for then?
<wolfspraul> I will just put my stuff under v3+ until someone complains.
<kristianpaul> To choose i guess :-)
<wolfspraul> to move things forward :-)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: btw, what's you opinion on making imperfect wpan units for evaluation ? they would work but their rf wouldn't be as good as it could be. also FCC/CE/etc. probably wouldn't be worth the trouble, provided that you could still distribute/sell them in some way
<wolfspraul> but of course I respect werner's wish, so those sources in scripted.patch that include snippets from him just all are v2+
<wolfspraul> to me it's not a big deal
<wolfspraul> yes totally, I want to make some
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: (dual) v2+ is implicitly dual :)
<wolfspraul> we can only get perfect if we accept imperfection at the beginning, no?
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: he :-)
<wolfspraul> my goal for such a run would be to push the bar of our free process even higher
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: you can combine v2+ and v3 as long as the result is v3. you cannot include v3-only code in a v2+ or v2 project
<wolfspraul> of course everything in kicad, plus boomified, plus fpedized, plus a clean process from kicad to pcb (well documented), and to smt
<wolfspraul> basically the stuff we are working on
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: about the buffer i have something working know but i dont have a full memory  map of the whole thing just a register fixed to point one address before from the write buffer
<wolfspraul> I am anxious to make some more progress with boom
<kristianpaul> s/know/now
<kristianpaul> write pointer*
<wolfspraul> if you are overloaded, maybe I go in a bit deeper there (on my list I have some things right now from our last discussion, like mouser)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: perfectly open kicad is the easy part ;-) it's the laws of physics that are giving me a hard time. particularly the part where maxwell got involved :)
<wolfspraul> tell me more
<wolfspraul> of course I want to bring my own kicad-scripted stuff live on the server, to make some steps of the kicad production process easier
<wolfspraul> I'll do that soon
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: well, properly doing the RF side. it's still kinda creepy. i now know a lot more than i did at the beginning, but to properly debug that stuff would need someone with real-life hands-on experience.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (server) i think the next step should be switching schhist to --plotx (and renaming plotx :)
<wolfspraul> sure we can do that, I wanted to test --plotx locally first with schhist (not done yet)
<wolfspraul> well how bad is the RF side?
<wolfspraul> are you saying you gave up and don't know how to make it work?
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: then, brdhhist. you'll be surprised what things you'd see with this in projects like ben-wpan ;-)
<wolfspraul> yes totally, that would be awesome
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: i didn't give up :)
<wolfspraul> you would need to specify more clearly what is missing, what you mean with 'debug the RF side'
<wolfspraul> should we make 8:10 or USB boards?
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: but i realize that i'll not be able to make it perfect. all i can aim for is "make it work in many cases and to the best of my experience"
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (8:10/usb)) both
<wolfspraul> how about upticking kicad?
<wolfspraul> is it worth it? (just curious, not pushing at all, I have plenty of things...)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (debug) first, a review of the layout. there may be problems obvious to an expert that i missed. then "flatten" the spectrum - or decide that it's flat enough as it is. (i lack the experience to make that sort of decision)
<wolfspraul> my priorities there are roughly - bring eeschema/pcbnew cmdline stuff live on server, improve boom (mouser, reels), brdhist
<wpwrak> (uptick) it's always worth it provided that you have the time :)
<wpwrak> (uptick) i.e., me not tracking it closely is 100% laziness
<wolfspraul> no, the question is whether anybody ran into a problem, or expects a specific new feature to help him
<wpwrak> (well, and not putting too much a burden on people tracking me)
<wolfspraul> or to say we have a maximum latency, so after x months we uptick out of principle, not out of features/improvements
<wolfspraul> I am publishing debian packages with patches already, so tracking is easier
<wolfspraul> and also on the Server_setup page we have detailed instructions on how to download the sources and build with patches
<wpwrak> (update policy) i'd go for the latter. from a code maintenance point of view, large gaps are deadly
<wolfspraul> well, KiCad uptick is not something high on my priority list
<wolfspraul> yes, and KiCad seems to be quite active
<wolfspraul> so anyway, from my perspective boom improvements and brdhist would be cool
<wpwrak> things are happening, yes :) not excessively active lately, but still
<wolfspraul> I am ready for a ben-wpan small run
<wolfspraul> not active? I thought it's quite active
<wpwrak> excellent
<wolfspraul> but like I said I want to improve the process more
<wolfspraul> do you think the resulting boards will at least be able to send packets back and forth?
<wpwrak> (active) no no, not "inactive". just less than some time ago. but that's not a problem. gives slow trackers like me who don't look a the mails for months a chance to catch up from time to time ;-)
<wolfspraul> I like projects that hold their ground, improve details, rather than spreading out in all directions and eventually ending just in bloat.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (send packets) of course. they will "work". just not with equal performance on all frequencies and they will not reach the technically possible maximum range
<wolfspraul> if that's their spirit, they should be open minded to some logic/cmdline cleanup as well - we see
<wpwrak> (kicad progress) mine was a non-judgmental description of things as i see them :)
<wpwrak> i.e., i'm not at a point where i'd say i cannot use kicad because of this or that. there are things that could be better, of course (there always are), but they're not serious blockers
<wpwrak> (boom future) i think it's time to rewrite the beast. for tape and reel, directed equalities will have to enter the picture. (i.e., you can say that X can replace Y but Y cannot replace X)
<wpwrak> (boom) right now, equalities go both ways. making them one-sided efficiently would be a good thing to do on a new code base. this doesn't require a rewrite per se, but there are already performance issues that will only get worse
<wpwrak> i'm not too unhappy with the file formats, so i think they's stay largely the same
<wolfspraul> OK, I volunteer for looking into the mouser side. That should be unrelated from you redoing the 'guts'.
<wpwrak> maybe with some small syntax changes in the substitutions
<wpwrak> mouser would be great. i'm a bit concerned that we may over-focus on digi-key and paint ourselves in a corner.
<wolfspraul> yes, no worries. I can work on mouser and there is no overlap with your work.
<wpwrak> so mouser and such would add a new perspective.
<wolfspraul> so you need to give me a few days until I can start with that, really overloaded right now
<wpwrak> yup, perfectly parallelizable ;-)
<wolfspraul> need to settle a few things...
<wpwrak> no rush ;-)
<wpwrak> i expect to play for ~the next two weeks with ben-wpan anyway
<wolfspraul> ok good
<wolfspraul> for the --plotx stuff, here's what I do
<wpwrak> trying to a few things, like adding vias to the atusb boards and see how the spectrum changes
<wpwrak> then repeat the same process with atusd
<wolfspraul> first I test whether --plot (or --plotx) still works with schhist, by running it locally on my machine
<wolfspraul> if it does work, I assume schhist is the only --plot user, so I will remove the old --plot and rename --plotx to --plot
<wpwrak> perfect
<wolfspraul> the syntax changes slightly, for --plot the default was black & white
<wolfspraul> but I think the default should be color
<wolfspraul> so the equivalent after the upgrade will be --plot --plot-bw
<wpwrak> okay
<wpwrak> i'm not scared of one-line changes in schhist ;-)
<wolfspraul> you can look into --list-sheets a little, it's quite interesting
<wolfspraul> I found a total of 4 different strings/names for each sheet
<wolfspraul> there are probably even more
<wolfspraul> I print them all space-separated, one line per sheet
<wpwrak> (4 names) wow
<wolfspraul> this is very much work in progress, basically I just wanted to dump every string I could find quickly, and wait for your (or someone else's) feedback
<wpwrak> i there i was, thinking the two i found were bad :)
<wolfspraul> zrafa: you there?
<wpwrak> he probably has lousy connectivity at the moment. besides a monster hangover ;-)
<wolfspraul> ah OK
<wolfspraul> I wanted to update the 1/1 news
<wpwrak> (he's at his parent's farm in neuquen, far from civilization)
<wpwrak> he's got a modem, though :)
<wolfspraul> and there is a jlime entry, but it's too sloppy right now, just pointing to the homepage.
<wolfspraul> so I need to dig a little
<wolfspraul> find out what exactly was released, and link exactly to what was released
<wolfspraul> otherwise I'll just move it to 2/1 :-)
<wpwrak> i think jlime isn't completely released yet. he made some progress, though, so it should be close
<wpwrak> (close) more like hours of rafa-time than weeks :)
<wpwrak> (jlime) last thing i saw were cross-development instructions in the wiki. but they still looked like work in progress.
<wpwrak> let's see if i can find them ...
<kristianpaul> ha, how i can miss to take a look at the XST User Guide (Specifically Coding Techniques), thanks to lekernel wich pointed on the mm-list
<kristianpaul> Now i can replace that nasty library for the dual ported ram in read-first mode :-)
<wpwrak> ppl = &kristianpaul; ppl->skills.reading++;  /* :-) */
<zrafa> wolfspraul: me there
<wolfspraul> ah hi
<zrafa> wolfspraul: released: we uploead the sane and safe repository. We uploaded images (rootfs) for nand and sd (for both there are full images and bootstrap). Also we uploaded kernels for nand and toolchains for easy port of software. We wrote documentation for everything of that: what is jlime, downloads, installation instructions, user manual and jlime toolchain instructions.
<wolfspraul> ok what is a good url?
<zrafa> and the links from that wiki page.
<wolfspraul> the release is called 'Muffinman'?
<wolfspraul> that's the name of the release? if so, has Muffinman been released now, last I remember was some beta4?
<zrafa> for all: what is the current state of patents stuff instructions?. I am sure that we think that it is a good idea avoid to have this kind of stuff on wiki. BUt I see for example, Debian wiki explaining stuff about mplayer. And also how to install packages, which means that I can install any Debian package using those instructions.
<zrafa> wolfspraul: the jlime version for nanonote is called Muffinman. Now there are many jlime distributions for nn, all of them are called Muffinamn. But this version on qi wiki is just beta 4 but without problematic packages.
<wolfspraul> oh well
<wolfspraul> seems people like their MP3s
<zrafa> wolfspraul: and this version just lives on qi servers. So you will not find this exact version on jlime.com (this exact version = rootfs, repository)
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> yes but the same name is even shared with releases that include mp3 :-)
<wolfspraul> if I understand you correctly
<zrafa> yes, exactly
<wolfspraul> I am just trying to sum up the _news_ in one line. What is the news? The news is the Muffinman release?
<wolfspraul> Or Muffinman beta4 release?
<wolfspraul> I think the news is: Sneaky attempt at bypassing MP3 patents goes live on Qi servers.
<zrafa> wolfspraul: I would call this : Muffinamn version for Qi/copyleft project release
<wolfspraul> well I think I got it already :-)
<wolfspraul> so basically you are trying to say - everybody can play mp3, but for the sake of this patent thing we have this special dump over here...
<zrafa> wolfspraul: I think that this version is just resellers who wants jlime on nn for sale
<wolfspraul> I'm just trying to figure out the news line now, need to release 1/1 news...
<zrafa> wolfspraul: it is unmaintained, and the current people here working with nn just want maintained stuff. So it will not be useful for more people: just for resellers if they want to try that
<wolfspraul> yeah
<zrafa> wolfspraul: I am not saying taht
<zrafa> wolfspraul: about mp3
<zrafa> wolfspraul: you are saying that :)
<wolfspraul> yes, it's the truth
<wolfspraul> Muffinman includes MP3, most Muffinman users want and like MP3 capability
<wolfspraul> so it's included
<zrafa> wolfspraul: Muffinman is not nice for mp3
<wolfspraul> why not? does it play mp3?
<zrafa> wolfspraul: I guess that you are talking about jlime Muffinman on jlime.com. That version is not nice for mp3
<zrafa> wolfspraul: because the only current stuff for mp3 on that version is mplayer I would say. And nobody play many mp3 with mplayer, users like mp3 players with lists of songs, etc.
<zrafa> wolfspraul: of course, you can install some libs and try other packages maybe
<zrafa> wolfspraul: but no sure if there is some nice mp3 player on repository
<zrafa> most Muffinamn (from jlime.com) users can not play mp3 easily I would say. There is no nice mp3 player, so they would complain if they want to play mp3
<wolfspraul> then why not remove it entirely?
<zrafa> mmh?
<wolfspraul> why not remove mp3 from muffinman?
<zrafa> why?.. it is hard on both sides.. I do not know how to remove that entirely, and I do not know which are the benefits to do that
<wolfspraul> ok
<zrafa> if you mean to avoid users complain then I think that jlime devs will work to fix that, but no removing that entirely. Maybe adding some proper player
<wolfspraul> adding a proper mp3 player?
<zrafa> wolfspraul: Blizard is maintaining the muffinman version on OE, and he does not care about that
<zrafa> wolfspraul: so maybe if many users want that he will add the best powerful complete mpl3
<zrafa> mp3 player :P
<zrafa> wolfspraul: I introduced him about this topic several times, but he was not interested
<urandom__> zrafa no good mp3 player?! we have GMU!
<zrafa> urandom__: yes, but the version on muffinman can not play mp3
<zrafa> urandom__: and the muffinman version on jlime.com can not play mp3 with gmu either
<urandom__> not a big problem, but why dont you add mp3 codecs?
<zrafa> urandom__: no idea, I did not do before because I do not like mp3, but also you have mplayer there, so I am not very consistent :P (I added mplayer to play videos, just that it has a lot of codecs)
<zrafa> urandom__: and now I am not working much for this kind of stuff. No free time
<urandom__> should be work of 5 minutes or so, the dingoo version of GMU has mp3 so just reinclude them
<wpwrak> zrafa: so jlime-for-qi-hw is now "fully released" ?
<wejp> yes, it is very simple. you need to compile libmpg123 (with fixed point math) and then build Gmu with mp3 support
<wpwrak> zrafa: btw, you shouldn't call it "unmaintained". say that (a) maintainer(s) is/are wanted ;-)
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: it is, but it is also unmaintained at the same time when it was released :-)
<wolfspraul> I still like my news line...
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: which one ?
<wolfspraul> "sneaky attempt at mp3 circumvention goes live on qi servers"
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> "not really meant for real use, but we put it here because we think lawyers are stupid"
<wpwrak> naw. it's no circumvention. besides, you did it before, with openwrt.
<wolfspraul> yes I exaggerate a little...
<wpwrak> "not for real use" that's not how i read it
<wolfspraul> if I could build a hardware switch into the NanoNote that would forever block mp3, I would do so.
<wpwrak> but we now have an additional problem to solve, namely finding a maintainer
<wolfspraul> and of course zrafa is right and there are Debian links in the wiki that point to mp3 codecs
<wolfspraul> they need to be purged
<urandom__> wolfspraul that wouldnt be open hardware anymore (with mp3 blocked with hardware switch)
<wejp> indeed
<wolfspraul> I don't care. Build your own open hardware :-)
<zrafa> wpwrak: I do not know what is fully released. What do you mean?
<wolfspraul> If there would be a magical stop-mp3 capacitor, I'd solder it onto the board...
<wpwrak> zrafa: "fully released" = there is no work left to do before releasing it
<valhalla> wolfspraul: wouldn't it be better to have a magical kill-patent-madness switch?
<wpwrak> zrafa: well, s/left/planned/ ;-)
<zrafa> wpwrak: ah.. well. It is fully released.
<zrafa> wpwrak: for me this version is the best around for nn
<zrafa> :)
<zrafa> and I would like to see it growing with extra packages built using toolchain
<zrafa> wpwrak: Debian has p
<wpwrak> valhalla: we should diversify into biotech, then design a virus that causes strong permanent diarrhea in patent lawyers. problem solved ;-)
<wpwrak> p... ?
<wolfspraul> urandom__: btw, before this disintegrates, you could argue that hw that can play mp3 cannot be open hardware, because it is by law tied, in extremely narrow terms, to the patent holder
<zrafa> problematic (patents) packages, so that is not okey for this project. openwrt has few packages.
<zrafa> wpwrak:  problematic (patents) packages, so that is not okey for this project. openwrt has few packages.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: oh, just wait a year or two and it can be open hardware :)
<wolfspraul> more like 5, but yeah
<wolfspraul> and then we see what kind of extension ideas they came up with in the meantime
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: don't the patents expire sooner ? or am i confusing it with something else ?
<wpwrak> zrafa: (debian and patents) ah yes. same problem as with jlime.
<zrafa> wpwrak: so from my point of view it is full and it is ready for fun.
<zrafa> wpwrak: debian: yes, but we are talking about jlime on qi servers, which does not have packages with patented technologies.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: if you run a codec written 20 years ago, you ought to be fine, no ?
<urandom__> wolfspraul nah open hardware means for me also that the user has the freedom to give a fuck about software patents and copyright, the user owns the hardware and is responsible for violating patents and stuff
<wejp> mp3 is almost 20 years old
<zrafa> wpwrak: so it is not the same problem. Debian has those problematic packaeges. That jlime version does not.
<wejp> it has gone public in the end of 1991
<wpwrak> zrafa: sure. jlime _had_ the problem in the past, while debian still _has_ it in the present ;-)
<zrafa> wejp: he :), that does not matter I would say. Ask here about :D
<wejp> so in most countires in the world the last mp3 patents should expire december 2012
<wpwrak> freedom at last ! :)
<wejp> zrafa, why is that?
<wejp> wpwrak, yeah =)
<zrafa> wejp: it has been long discussed here.. you can check logs (which is not easy, I know)
<wejp> zrafa, hm, i see
<wolfspraul> "The various MP3-related patents expire on dates ranging from 2007 to 2017 in the U.S."
<zrafa> wejp: but mainly, the problem is that sellers of nns can not sell this machine with mp3 stuff. And for this project it is also a nice idea to be completely free I would say (on all sense)
<wejp> i don't know what the conclusion of the discussions has been, but from my understanding (and also that of many others), at least for the DECODER mp3 should be patent free by dec 2012
<zrafa> wejp: so mp3 is not a nice thing for this copyleft project
<wpwrak> zrafa: but once the patent expires, selling with mp3 will be okay
<wejp> wolfspraul, it is not possible that VALID mp3 patents expire in 2017 in the US
<wejp> at least not for the decoder
<wolfspraul> you guys are funny :-)
<wolfspraul> read the entire section on wikipedia, get a little fresh air of reality into the room...
<wejp> in the US patents can be filed up to a year after the thing to be patent has been made public
<wolfspraul> sure
<zrafa> wpwrak: well, two years yet, then they can sell :)
<wolfspraul> it should become clear over the next years how this continues
<wejp> which limits its lifespan to 21 years
<wolfspraul> wejp: in January 2013, can I sell you 10 Ben NanoNote and you put them up for sale on a public webpage?
<wolfspraul> be careful, if you say 'yes' it's a deal. I will have the popcorn ready in Jan 2013 as well then...
<wejp> so, what's the big deal?
<wolfspraul> oh, I will reflash them with a special mp3 edition for you
<wolfspraul> great, you are up for it?
<wejp> if there is no mp3 encoder included..
<wolfspraul> no we will add one, Jan 2013, should be OK, right?
<wejp> no
<wolfspraul> decoder only, I see
<wolfspraul> so only decoder, that's ok?
<wejp> yes, it is about the DECODER only
<wolfspraul> and you are up for it?
<urandom__> as if a law idiots would care about 10 nanonotes
<wolfspraul> you would do an extremely valuable service to the world, with your live test in Jan 2013 :-)
<wejp> but in 2013 there are probably few people still interested in the device, so it is probably not such a good deal
<wolfspraul> he :-)
<wejp> yep, nobody would care about 10 such devices
<wejp> it is just not worth it
<valhalla> I hope that in 2013 there will be another version of the nanonote around
<wolfspraul> wejp: we would inform sisvel of the sale in advance, because it is also a public documentation of the mp3-decoder-freeness at that time
<wejp> i see
<wolfspraul> you wouldn't be worried about that, would you?
<wejp> no
<wolfspraul> good
<wolfspraul> in which jurisdiction are you?
<wejp> that varies from time to time
<wejp> can't say where i will be in 2013
<wolfspraul> ok we still have some time, but it's great that you volunteer for this important fact finding mission
<wolfspraul> :-) (just kidding, I'm not so serious...)
<wejp> oh i probably don'T. as i said, i am pretty sure i can't sell those devices in 2013 anyway
<wejp> maybe if there is some amazing new device around
<wolfspraul> I just want to put your patent theories to test.
<wpwrak> e.g., the "ya" :)
<wejp> i know ;)
<wolfspraul> and most likely I wouldn't do it either on my side, because I wouldn't like to see you go down...
<wolfspraul> when people make tens of millions of USD on anything per year, you have no idea about the degree of creativity they will show to keep that money moving their way.
<wolfspraul> they work on that problem right now, probably for years already.
<wolfspraul> we are just bs'ing a little, compared to that. my 2 cents.
<urandom__> i really hope in 2013 more people will know how fucking stupid software patents are and one day in the future we will live in a world without patents and copyright and shit
<wejp> yeah, that is right, but even with lots of creativity, there are limitations for that. patents last no longer than 20 years in most countries and you cannot extend it beyond that
<wolfspraul> so yeah, I hope that this patent, and many others, go down. But I'm a realist/pragmatist.
<wejp> so the only thing they can do, is pretend there are mp3 patents that have not been known until then
<wejp> but if they try that, they could do the same with ogg vorbis or something else
<wolfspraul> for them it's about keeping a steady stream flowing
<wejp> and they could do that anytime anyway :/
<wolfspraul> 'mp3' is a brand too, not just a technology
<wolfspraul> we see
<wolfspraul> wejp: yes but that would also be risky. remember steady streams...
<wejp> sure, but that steady stream isn't going to flow for ever, no matter what they try
<wejp> even if they manage to extend it by a year or so
<wolfspraul> there will be big lawyer battles aroudn the end of this mp3 patent madness
<wolfspraul> not with us, but with lawyers from Microsoft and other well funded parties.
<wolfspraul> I hope the results will come out in the open.
<valhalla> wejp: the same could be said with disney and copyright :(
<wejp> wolfspraul, that might happen and there will at least be some good thing about those fights: they will show pretty clearly if the patents have expired or not
<wolfspraul> hmm
<wolfspraul> let me ask you one slightly inappropriate question - how old are you?
<wpwrak> wejp: there may be patents on implementation techniques that have been developed and patented later
<wolfspraul> I'm 36, and in my experience, that's exactly the kind of arrangement that is accompanied with an NDA agreement between the parties involved.
<wolfspraul> as in, like, 100% of such cases? :-)
<wejp> on one side those patent holder want to earn money, but on the other side big  companies want to avoid additional costs, and if they are (or rather their lawyers) are pretty sure about the state of those patents, they probably are willing to risk such a fight
<wolfspraul> wejp: have you read the entire wikipedia section I posted above?
<wejp> wolfspraul, yes, i have read that (not right now, but a while ago, when i was reading about that stuff)
<wpwrak> zrafa: isn't there some text missing on  http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/JlimeToolchain  ?
<wolfspraul> wejp: my bottom line is this. yes, I hope one day mp3 patents will expire, and mp3 will be 'safely' (!) known as a free technology.
<wolfspraul> I hope that others test the waters of this new freedom, like Microsoft, and make a public statement about it.
<wpwrak> zrafa: at least the way the code parts are fragmented makes them look that way
<wejp> "one day" they will expire for sure. that's how patents work. the question is WHEN
<wolfspraul> Could be Ubuntu/Canonical as well, or others, but I have even less faith in those guys than in Microsoft, or Apple even, who knows.
<lekernel> wolfspraul: what do you have against ubuntu?
<wejp> why would they agree to sign a NDA when they are sure it has expired anyway?
<wpwrak> wejp: submarine patents could be an issue as well in countried that have or had such a mechanism at that time, e.g., the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_patent
<wejp> wpwrak, of course, but those patents could be a problem all the time
<wejp> even with vorbis
<wpwrak> wejp: "submarine patent" refers to a specific mechanism in this case, not just generally "invisible" patents
<wpwrak> (of course, you can always get sued for some surprise patent)
<wejp> that's what i meant
<wejp> you can never be sure anyway
<wpwrak> probably the only way to be 100% safe is to make something, then lock it away for 21 years, and then sell exactly the same thing :)
<wolfspraul> lekernel: I don't think Ubuntu/Canonical will conduct a public fight to proove that the mp3 patents have expired.
<wolfspraul> I have nothing against ubuntu, this is just a guess of mine. But I'm willing to take bets on it :-)
<wejp> and still i don't see why they would agree to sign that NDA. if the submarine patent holder tells those guys about such patents, they already know about it, so why bother signing a NDA. and if the don't tell them, why would they want to sign it anyway?
<wolfspraul> I am using Debian, thinking about switching to Fedora. Never considered Ubuntu, they include way too much bloated stuff and non-free stuff for, for my taste.
<wolfspraul> wejp: why would the other side not sign an NDA?
<wejp> wpwrak, also, submarine patents shouldn't really be a problem there as mp3 decoding was documented back in 1991, so even those submarine patents should expire 2012 or earlier
<urandom__> yeah fedora ist really nice
<wpwrak> wejp: the NDA could be one of the conditions a holder of rights considered enforceable imposes
<wolfspraul> not only that, the other party would need a completely altruistic reason for not agreeing to an NDA
<wolfspraul> to 'enlighten the public'? or what?
<wpwrak> wejp: and the NDA may cover more than just those rights. e.g., if they have a still-valid patent on some common optimization technique, they may request that you refrain from babbling about all the other patents too
<wejp> but what would that be? other patents also expiring by that time that have been kept secret?
<wolfspraul> it is in the interest of both parties to keep their arrangement closed
<wpwrak> wejp: (submarine) have you read  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_patent  ? the submarine patent mechanism extends the lifetime of patents almost indefinitely
<wolfspraul> try to get Christoph Pulster to tell you about his deal with Sisvel :-)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: the NDA would only come into play of the other side loses. otherwise, why would they agree on secrecy ?
<wejp> wpwrak, that article says those patents are no longer pratcial due to the limit of 20 years
<wolfspraul> why not
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: well, unless sisvel pay them. who knows :)
<wolfspraul> a normal business has no incentive to enlighten the public
<urandom__> Pulster from pulster.de , whats with him?
<wolfspraul> almost _every_ out of court settlement comes with an NDA nowadays
<wolfspraul> every last one
<wolfspraul> it's just so standard, if you refuse there will be no out-of-court settlement. period.
<wejp> a settlement, but not if you win in court
<valhalla> wejp: winning in court is expensive, probably too expensive for most businesses
<wejp> valhalla, that depends. if they are sure they can win the case, it is not all that expensive
<wejp> and those guys are not sutpid
<wejp> stupid
<wolfspraul> urandom__: he ran into mp3 patent problems and had to settle with sisvel.
<wpwrak> wejp: well, if sisvel really want to keep it secret, they could pay the winning party for agreeing on confidentiality
<wolfspraul> the terms of which nobody knows, and he probably is under some drakonian punishment regime to not reveal them.
<wejp> at least they could tryyeah,
<wpwrak> wejp: (submarine) yes, but the 20 year change was only introduced in 1995. as i understand the article, still unpublished patents filed before 1995 could still lie in hiding.
<wejp> wpwrak, yes, but it is rather unlikeyly as it is only possible for patents which have been filed back then but have not been granted until today
<wpwrak> wejp: but i kinda doubt they'd want to build something overly fragile there. they have other patents (for other things) to play with ...
<wolfspraul> we waste our beautiful new year day with patent discussions
<wolfspraul> I have a new year wish for 2011: I want to have 364 days without patent discussions!
<wejp> ok, we can stop that discussion right here =)
<wpwrak> wejp: correct. i don't know how likely/unlikely it is.
<urandom__> wolfspraul how are you able to produce hardware? i would get mad all the time if a had to play by the law
<wolfspraul> thanks for sharing my pain
<wolfspraul> well I live in China, that trains you in many regards.
<wpwrak> urandom__: he's in china. there is only one law there: don't piss off the government ;-)
<urandom__> their ideology is more based on sharing so i would think they dont care much about copyright and patents, do they?
<wolfspraul> sharing?
<wolfspraul> are you serious?
<wpwrak> urandom__: unilateral sharing ? ;-)
<wpwrak> wonders if the hangover has subsided enough to risk doing some rework
<zear> i don't remember if i mentioned it here, but China Chip were impressed by our linux port to the Dingoo
<zear> so impressed that they invited Booboo, the main coder, to china
<wolfspraul> yes OK, good :-)
<zear> he returned with full dingoo and their new console's documentation
<wolfspraul> I almost met him in HK, but didn't find the time in the end...
<zear> and knowing they want linux to be official for their new console
<zear> ah
<zear> so you know the situation probably even better than me ;)
<wpwrak> zear: hmm ... google sez: "China Chip Technology Co., Ltd. Distributor & buyer of obsolete components, [...]"
<zear> haha
<wolfspraul> zear: let's wait one year and see where things stand
<zear> no, afaik they're Gemei and Dingoo real owners/producers
<zear> wolfspraul, we got full docs (nda, of course)
<zear> but that helped us already
<zear> we can now mute internal speakers while still being able to play the sound from the tv-out
<wolfspraul> zrafa: what do you think? http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Community_news_2011-01-01
<wolfspraul> can you guys look over the news and see whether something noteworthy is missing?
<wolfspraul> or edit them for correctness, or add good urls I might have forgotten...
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: if there's a wiki page for the openwrt image / install instructions, maybe link to it ?
<wolfspraul> I link to Xiangfu's mail
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: yes, but xiangfu's mail is a bit hard to parse. aren't there instructions in the wiki, too ?
<kristianpaul> "pool pantent" is other tricky way of extend patents to everywhere.. :/
<kristianpaul> wolfspraul: (fedora) i already swiched (still having debian just in case) and wow they really take care of non-free patented stuff (redhat experience i guess)
<wolfspraul> what do you mean with 'take care'?
<kristianpaul> avoid
<kristianpaul> dont recommend or install such us things by default
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: don't you want to include the jtag boards, too ?
<kristianpaul> wolfspraul: by default or further, (something that in ubuntu is tricky)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: if you do, maybe also mention that xue will use them as well
<wolfspraul> good point, although I don't even have a picture of the rc2 boards
<kristianpaul> (take care) they also argue why is not good patentented and non-free software.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: adam may get up soonish, so maybe you can still get your picture before the 1.1. ends globally :)
<wolfspraul> oh we have plenty of pictures in the wiki
<kristianpaul> give up about reading the *long* backlog
<wolfspraul> it's all just work to write nice news, time consuming...
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: i mean pictures of the jtag boards
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: argue or explain ?
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: depens how you see it ;-)
<kristianpaul> depends*
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: ah, so you really meant "argue" ;-)
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: Is hard to say, but i really believe that not using patented stuff even if is implemented as FLOSS is a good move :-)
<kristianpaul> mailly after reading some articles in fedora wiki
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: agreed. each use increases the importance of the patented stuff.
<wolfspraul> thank you fedora
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (mocp) ah, did a codec slip through ?
<kristianpaul> it seems wpwrak
<kristianpaul> I saw the commit about removing that support from makefile
<wpwrak> they're like roaches. hard to get rid of.
<kristianpaul> sadly it is avaliable on repo now it cant run because screen size
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: fedora have not mocp :/
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: where do you think a codec slipped through?
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: darn. only usable player i know.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: "It should not play the mp3 at all, thanks for reporting."
<kristianpaul> I have to compile it my self to got working ogg play and "yes" it depends on diferent software related to patented codecs
<wolfspraul> well, she said she only heard static noise
<wolfspraul> that's a just punishment imho, but the cleaner solution would be to not play it at all.
<wolfspraul> the 'static noise' sounds like the file extension is still being recognized, but then the codec is missing or not working
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: yup. but i wonder if the static was because there's no codec or because of something else.
<wolfspraul> no codec I would hope
<wolfspraul> anyway even static noise is too much
<wolfspraul> there should be just silence :-)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: or a voice explaining why mp3 is evil ;-)
<kristianpaul> hehe
<wolfspraul> ok no more news updates, I'll release this now
<wolfspraul> I'm really tired here... need some sleep...
<wpwrak> so, no jtag ?
<wolfspraul> wow, I even forgot the 27c3 presence
<wolfspraul> no jtag
<wolfspraul> we can add it to 02-01
<wolfspraul> I need to find a better habit than rushing the news out with frantic editing on the last day.
<wpwrak> well, it does seem to work ;-)
<wpwrak> don't fight human nature :)
<wolfspraul> not fight - find a happier balance :-)
<wolfspraul> here's the one for next month, if anybody wants to add stuff feel free...
<kristianpaul> oh, quoting irc channel desitions is a valid news too ? :o
<kristianpaul> good strategy ;-)
<wolfspraul> sure I could even link to the specific post, but I was too lazy to lookup the url
<wolfspraul> horrible how this gets mangled in the planet... http://en.qi-hardware.com/planet/
<wolfspraul> that's another thing I have to look into...
<wolfspraul> well, calling it a day now, 'night
<wpwrak> (mangled) ;-))
<wpwrak> very artsy
<wolfspraul> the html takes a long path through many markups, filters, css, etc.
<wolfspraul> need to quickly track down the irregularity somewhere...
<wolfspraul> I leave that for another day :-)
<wpwrak> hmm, i'm a lot less happy with my new boards after running the same test with the old ones :-(
<wpwrak> i wonder if i placed the antenna too close to the rest of the stuff. all the designs i saw keep some significant distance, but there's no explanation of just how large it should be
<mirko> yay, got my first remote controlled power socket switched on and off via the hoperf rfm12 module !!
<wpwrak> heh, cool :)
<kristianpaul> mirko: wire to the nanonote?
<kristianpaul> wired
<kristianpaul> or playing with jeenodes? :-)
<zrafa> wpwrak: test missing on jlime toolchain wiki page: no.. I splited that codes to do it more easy to read. Maybe you are right and that seems some text is not there.
<mirko> kristianpaul: not yet wired with the nanonote
<mirko> but will do so soon
<mirko> right now done with a broadcom-platform
<mirko> an old router board
<kristianpaul> mirko: wich library are you using with the module?
<kristianpaul> rfm12lib perhaps?
<kristianpaul> or your own..
<kristianpaul> any way is good to read more people are working with, i have 10 units here but still in their shipping bag :-)
<mirko> kristianpaul: i wrote everythign myself
<kristianpaul> is somwhere published may be in qi indefero? ;)
<kristianpaul> any way let us know you results,i really want play with this modules later :-)
<kristianpaul> i was thinking arrange two of then in the ben so i can do some simple chatting, but is just an idea
<kristianpaul> i'm off, read you tomorrow
<mirko> kristianpaul: the repo is currently on github but i'll move it soon