<wolfspraul>
that reminds me that roh also wrote some excellent posts on the list a while back in response to Carlos
<wolfspraul>
copyleft hardware is difficult, everybody who is serious about it and wants it to succeed agrees
<wolfspraul>
there is no point in redoing multi-billion USD investments that are able to make fantastic chips that make our lives so much better
<wolfspraul>
and it will never happen anyway
<wolfspraul>
but there is a point somewhere, where remote-kill switches, drm, closed firmwares start and innovation and creativity suffers
<wolfspraul>
we will find the sweet spot between those two, I'm sure :-)
<wpwrak>
there are a lot of people out there who very much want you to believe you could never even begin to compete with them and their work ;-)
<wpwrak>
after all, demoralizing your competitors before they even start is the most convenient way of beating them :)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: which products are you talking about?
<tuxbrain_away>
indeed we can't, even worst we don't want to compete :), the  way we are walking is the good one and they are welcome to walk with us :)
<wpwrak>
oh, pretty much anything. patents are part of that game too, of course.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: it's actually easy. you just have to ignore that what you're trying to do it impossible. once you got going, you'll eventually find some new direction.
<kyak>
xiangfu: you don't necessarily have to check my ubi.. yours should work the same, i just ask if you can build from scratch
<xiangfu>
yes. fetchmail and php5 will fail.
<kyak>
guile, too
<xiangfu>
kyak: my build is still compiling
<xiangfu>
guile works fine in my home folder.
<kyak>
it's amazign how my can have different results on the same host :)
<xiangfu>
kyak: maybe the package build order.
<xiangfu>
kyak: I have enable all package. so guile maybe build later. I think that is the only different between yours and my .config file
<kyak>
i enabled all packages, too
<kyak>
i have: feeds.conf (qi-packages first, no @revision). then i git pull in openwrt-packages and git pull in openwrt-xburst. then i make clean; rm -rf build_dir staging_dir dl feeds tmp; make package/symlinks
<kyak>
then i copy config from data/.. and yes | &
<kyak>
then i make
<kyak>
this is how i build from scratch, this way i make sure there is no leftover from previsou build
<xiangfu>
hmm.. with out .config you can not 'make package/symlinks' it's will show 'menuconfig'
<kyak>
xiangfu: there is some .config at this point
<kyak>
usually
<kyak>
then i overwrite it with config from data, if necessary
<kyak>
menuconfig shows up if there is no .config only because it wants to know about toolchain options
<kyak>
i.e. gcc and uclibc version
<xiangfu>
I have:Â Â 1. make distclean, 2. cp data...config | yes... 2. make package/symlinks 3. cp data...config | yes.. again 4 make
<kyak>
xiangfu: i think your way is even better.
<kyak>
i don't like distclean because it rm's dl dir - i don't always want it..
<wolfspraul>
but we were outnumbered by people who think it's better to not upset customs
<roh>
well.. i liked the idea to point out its a multinational effort
<wolfspraul>
maybe we have another text that is less confrontational?
<roh>
'made' is so unspecific. which part? code? materials? pcb? assembled where? in what parts?
<tuxbrain_away>
are part of that crowd
<wolfspraul>
sure, I agree.
<roh>
and i liked it being so unspecific.
<wolfspraul>
and I don't even think this matters at all in customs, it's more an issue for some people/users who turn to the back of the device because they like to know who made this thing etc.
<tuxbrain_away>
you an set that in whatever place in the box as marketing message, but not in the product definition label
<wolfspraul>
Made in Many Countries?
<roh>
i think if we would try to list only 30% of the hw and sw compoents and their origin on the back the sticker would cover the whole box below
<wolfspraul>
I like that too :-)
<roh>
made in too many countries to list.
<roh>
-ETOOMANYCONTRIBUTORSTOLIST ;)
<tuxbrain_away>
made in qi-hardware :P
<roh>
'proud work of the revoutionary forces working towards open devices on planet earth'
<roh>
+l
<roh>
s/working/striving
<wolfspraul>
works for me
<wolfspraul>
just a bit long, small font?
<roh>
hrhr
<roh>
write it around the sticker. in small bold font
<roh>
instead of a limiting thick line
<tuxbrain_away>
s/open/liberate
<roh>
kind as a 'goof' for people watching closely
<wolfspraul>
how about 'collaborative work of many people'
<wolfspraul>
bassel: good morning, where are you now?
<wolfspraul>
I'm reading about egyptian internet shut-down, interesting stuff.
<bassel>
hey wolfspraul, morning
<bassel>
at Syria now
<roh>
wolfspraul: could be a good idea to get a backup satlink into the shack.. for darker times
<bassel>
wolfspraul even in Syria they blocked wifi in public places
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain_away: did you get that WEEE registration pulster is talking about? should we add the WEEE logo on m1?
<wolfspraul>
bassel: wow. if egypt goes down then I would think they may totally lock you down as well.
<wolfspraul>
I mean if the protests continue and the govt and secret service collapse.
<wolfspraul>
then we won't see good old bassel for a while, in that case: hang in there!
<bassel>
wolfspraul totally, weird shit happening here
<bassel>
I'm going back to Singapore soon
<bassel>
just got back here to see it's fucked up
<bassel>
internet and mobile shut down
<bassel>
that's weird
<bassel>
the totally turned off the internet in egypt
<bassel>
omg
<wolfspraul>
yes it seems they disconnected all bgp routes
<wolfspraul>
or nearly all, some small isp providing connectivity for the stock exchange and some others seems to be exempt
<wolfspraul>
china has been doing similar things when they crack down and kill people in tibet or xinjiang, only that it's too remote for any voices to come out from the siege
<wolfspraul>
but egype is more westernize, and surrounded by watchful people, so the whole way they try to lock it down will be much better understood and observed
<wolfspraul>
so: let's see how it continues :-) always some good ideas from this how to make routing and network protocols stronger, no? :-)
<wolfspraul>
I would think this will drive a lot more people to the streets now, if it really continues. not sure how deeply the internet is already connected into many small or large businesses.
<wolfspraul>
roh: the raumfahrtagentur blog is the only one I couldn't get into the qi planet because it seems to be https only and for some reason the old planetplanet I'm using didn't pick it up
<wolfspraul>
but - I need to go back at this and get https to work... I found some newer planet versions recently, need to upgrade then see if it works.
<Jay7>
is looking on cases by Jane
<bassel>
wolfspraul I don't believe that the internet has main role in the current middle east protest
<bassel>
it might have some part
<roh>
wolfspraul: planetplanet uses some weird python lib which is weird with ssl
<bassel>
but people are putting there lifes for this
<bassel>
it's more than the internet
<bassel>
blocking the internet will just fuel the fire more
<roh>
timeoutsocket
<roh>
if it finds that lib it goes bonkers. remove it and it uses the python fallback which works properly
<wolfspraul>
bassel: oh sure the internet is just a small tool.
<wolfspraul>
but for a government that has a lot to hide it's still a big problem, even if people just chat about which music they like.
<bassel>
yeah the governments now are scared to shit
<bassel>
I had to suspend all hackerspace activities
<wolfspraul>
sure, take good care, it's better to be around for the long run.
<wolfspraul>
one of my ex-neighbors had his second court date today, let me check whether there's a result finally... (he's already in jail for 7 months now)
<roh>
i just deleted it. just remember to delete it again after an upgrade
<wolfspraul>
anyway, I still see it on the qi server
<wolfspraul>
maybe I rename it to timeoutstocket.py.disabled ?
<roh>
i removed it on mine to get ssl working
<wolfspraul>
timeoutsocket.py.disabled
<roh>
i just deleted it. dunno if rename works.. should i guess
<wolfspraul>
sure that's great I will try
<wolfspraul>
quick fix, can upgrade to a newer planet sw later
<lekernel>
wolfspraul: ianal but I think the "made in" should identify the country where the last major manufacturing step took place - in this case Taiwan
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: I'm not aware of any regulations that actually mandate that, so out with it
<wolfspraul>
it's confusing and contradicts our copyleft goals
<wolfspraul>
we rather really document where stuff was made, sourcemap.org etc.
<lekernel>
I've seen label that read "Designed in California by xxx, Made in China"
<lekernel>
we could use a similar phrasing
<lekernel>
let's not try to attract customs problems :)
<wolfspraul>
Made in: See sourcemap.org
<wolfspraul>
I have by far the most customs experience of anyone in this channel.
<wolfspraul>
let me just be arrogant a little :-)
<lekernel>
so why is every product using a proper "made in <country>" label?
<wolfspraul>
don't know
<lekernel>
don't you think they might have a good reason for that?
<lekernel>
"The requirements for Country of Origin markings are complex and depend both domestic rules permitting the designation 'Made in X', 'Product of X' etc; and the import country requirements for disclosure."
<wolfspraul>
what does that tell you?
<lekernel>
do you really want to play with that, or just do as everyone does?
<lekernel>
law and regulations are boring, and in this case I'm not sure it's worth messing with them for what it brings...
<wolfspraul>
no messing
<wolfspraul>
in fact I actually take those regulations serious and do a ton of paperwork all the time
<wolfspraul>
Made in: See sourcemap.org
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: you are not telling me that we should improperly mark the product as 'made in taiwan', when in fact a weapons-grade dual-use fpga is 'made in usa' and affected by us export control laws.
<wolfspraul>
or are you?
<lekernel>
from my understanding of the regulation, the label should say where the last major production step of the product occured
<wolfspraul>
there are far less regulations about 'labels' than many people here think
<wolfspraul>
the regulations are about declarations, and sometimes about protected names, like the whole famous 'champagne' case
<wolfspraul>
if I make a cheese in china, but I say "cheese from switzerland"
<wolfspraul>
that's not going to go down very well
<wolfspraul>
first rule of business - stick with the truth
<wolfspraul>
I am not trying to hide where things are done, quite to the contrary.
<wolfspraul>
and we will properly declare everything as required by customs.
<tuxbrain_away>
wolfspraul: yes I have all WEEE things in order here so yes put that logo also .
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain_away: how difficult was it to get the WEEE stuff. do you have some unique number now?
<tuxbrain_away>
well is a little messy but sumarizing you have to pay :P,
<tuxbrain_away>
you have to be afiliated to one of the local WEEE associations and pay an anual fee + a small amount for each device imported each 3 months, you have to deliver a documentation each tree montsh and they invoice you
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: i still think you're confusing "wipe" and "whip" :)
<wolfspraul>
that's supposed to be environmentally friendly?
<tuxbrain_away>
yes I have a number Nº de Productor REI-RAEE 003298
<wolfspraul>
are you doing anything with actual devices? or just paying people and producing admin overhead?
<tuxbrain_away>
Nº REI-RPA 667  RD.106/2008
<tuxbrain_away>
haahahah yes
<wolfspraul>
does this mean that a customer anywhere in the EU can return the device to a WEEE collection point?
<tuxbrain_away>
in theory that money is used to cover the cost of recicling the electronic waste you are introducing in the sistem
<wolfspraul>
most likely I think way too practical :-)
<wolfspraul>
yes but what does it mean for an actual customer of our devices?
<wolfspraul>
where can he go to return the device?
<wolfspraul>
roh: socket thing didn't work, still got 'internal server error'
<tuxbrain_away>
being practical is not my problem :P , but in theory costumer must go to the local waste station (don't know its name in english) or at least here in my town there is a free pick up service you you have to call and put the waste near the paper/plastic/whatever container on the street
<wolfspraul>
is that connected to WEEE ?
<wolfspraul>
in other words - do they only pickup stuff that has a WEEE label?
<tuxbrain_away>
no, they pick up all waste,  but if goverment catch a company introducing electronic waste on the system (aka importing or producing) without pay that fee.... tachan!!!! the fee becomes a prette sue and a lot of money to pay
<tuxbrain_away>
so if your question is if there is a clear relation on WEEE and ecology answer is no, weee is just another tax with green flavour but a tax
<wolfspraul>
I see.
<wolfspraul>
well then, let's add the logo for now, later hopefully we can participate in more meaningful programs as well.
<wolfspraul>
the main thing is the longevity of devices, imho
<tuxbrain_away>
I agree
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: (wipe/whip) especially when used in connection with someone's behind :)
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain_away: yes, that is all fine (wikipedia article). And that is exactly why the label will not have a reference to a country, so we can correctly declare it depending on the circumstances.
<tuxbrain_away>
ok is an option :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: seems that some places require a declaration on the label, too. well, i guess you'll find out ...
<wolfspraul>
yes.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: could also be that lack of such indications simply means "worst case" treatment and fees. not sure how different "taiwan" is from "worst case"
<wolfspraul>
and the rules for determination of country of origin may differ depending on country of destination. what now?
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
Made in: See sourcemap.org
<wolfspraul>
you seem to think that every rule is designed to be your enemy :-)
<wolfspraul>
make them your friend, Werner
<wolfspraul>
the rules are there to help you!
<wolfspraul>
just use them!
<wpwrak>
(sourcemap) ah, but that's not the legal country of origin :)
<wolfspraul>
correct
<wolfspraul>
but it adds some facts into the machine
<wpwrak>
(rules) well, for me the question is "how do i avoid undue attention by those who try to enforce those rules". it's like airport security - the real enemy are nowadays the screeners. the average passenger probably spends a lot more time worrying about how to get past them unmolested than about any hypothetical blowing up the plane.
<wpwrak>
hypothetical terrorist
<wpwrak>
don't see the fnords ;-)
<zrafa>
wpwrak: wolfspraul : I have an idea for some test for werner future customs ezeiza airport travels. Werner, what about if when you need to get something you try to get it via another guy with a name more spanish? better, some very common name here. "Juan Perez" for example (we do not have any friend with that name, but someone with a similar name). I guess that some of the troubles you had on the past is because customs in airport read "ahhh.. Werner Alme
<wolfspraul>
zrafa: so far all Werner said about Argentina sounded very reasonable.
<wolfspraul>
there are clear and solid declaration levels for normal couriers, 1000 usd for fedex, 3000 usd for ems.
<wolfspraul>
werner seemed to have serious problems only in connection with the power adapter without 'A' symbol
<wolfspraul>
but other than that it seems stuff just passes without further ado, no?
<wpwrak>
zrafa: (funny name) naw, i don't think so. argentina has traditionally been a melting pot, and all sorts of germanic names exist here. i might well be the grandson of some (")political refugee(") from the 1940es :)
<wolfspraul>
the reason the couriers have those limits is also just because of their business model
<wolfspraul>
maybe things above those levels tend to generate too much bureaucratic overhead, so they cannot handle it at their price range and margin expectations
<wpwrak>
zrafa: things may get more intersting with obviously asian names. these would almost all be recent immigrants
<wolfspraul>
I'm not at all worried about Argentine customs right now, had a number of shipments and they all just passed.
<zrafa>
wolfspraul: I have read some post (a long time ago) about guys going to ezeiza airport because customs stop the package, and customs people doing them pay customs dreamed previous night before giving you the package
<wolfspraul>
sure, but I think that was because of the power adapters without 'A' symbol
<wolfspraul>
ok, we learnt that now. done.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (power) without (S)
<wolfspraul>
'S' ok. that's what I meant.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: two of the (S) problems were connected with the goods also exceeding the USD 1000 barrier on couriers. they didn't dwell on that point, though.
<zrafa>
wpwrak: yeah.. from the 1940es there are many germanic names
<wolfspraul>
compare that to a 75 USD limit into China now
<wolfspraul>
I think Argentine is just fine, really.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: what happens at that USD 75 limit ?
<wolfspraul>
fedex won't take it
<wpwrak>
wow :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: moving back to taiwan soon ? :)
<kristianpaul>
roh: i agree, i just pointed that because, well i know abot our all work done here about copyleft hardware, i understand always there are cheap alternatinves as our 3 usd~ ingenic chip, but now we can look further and do some sacrifies buying a expensive (yeah but is reconfigurable) fpga, in wich i canput a free CPU, even tought ! there is a side project (llhdl) for other _hole_ misssing in free sofware for hardware, but is a human d
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: yeah, redoing is not good, inovating it is, thats what you can do with mm i think
<lekernel>
I don't think it's a good idea to use a FPGA for just a CPU. MM can live with that because the FPGA also brings technical advantages and absorbs some of the chips (and cost) that would normally be needed in such a system
<lekernel>
otherwise fpga's are expensive and slow, and cheapness and functionality beat freedom
<kristianpaul>
no no, s/CPU/SoC :-)
<lekernel>
yeah well
<kristianpaul>
and custom cores..
<lekernel>
small soc's with just a lcd driver, memory controller, keyboard and memory card are more or less the same
<lekernel>
what custom cores do you need for a nanonote?
<kristianpaul>
i dint said nanonote :-), but may be ogg/ogv aceleration
<kristianpaul>
something for games perhaps... is just matter of see what people can do with
<kristianpaul>
remenber the guy on m1 list that said he was using lm32 for L1
<kristianpaul>
..
<lekernel>
?
<wpwrak>
lekernel: more mmc engines, gps data conversion, maybe correlation, any interface some diy circuit may require, ...
<lekernel>
what's l1?
<lekernel>
diy? diy != FPGA
<lekernel>
diy = led blinkers
<lekernel>
:)
<kristianpaul>
L1 signal processing, i dont remenber the appp now
<wpwrak>
lekernel: the thing the arduinauts will do once they've grown up ;-)
<kristianpaul>
:-)
<kristianpaul>
Mobile telephony layer 1 processing mostly.
<wpwrak>
lekernel: also, application-specific acceleration engines, even small ones. see also the MS eMIPS port for BSD. (alas, i only have an article in german about this)
<kristianpaul>
is this diy^ ?
<lekernel>
3 years and a half of milkymist, and: I only got minor FPGA contribs, and lost a lots of delusions about opencores and the like, while every nerd complains about the lack of a MMU but no one would implement it
<lekernel>
so sorry but I have somehow lost faith in the capability of DIY people to do interesting things with FPGAs
<lekernel>
there are some exceptions, but it's a very niche market
<wpwrak>
lekernel: give us the fpga, the Free synthesis tools, and a few months to tinker, and i'm sure there will be unique and meaningful uses ;-)
<wpwrak>
lekernel: you're still at the very very beginning. you're like columbus writing the final report of his voyage minutes after leaving the harbor :)
<kristianpaul>
also now there is Sharism wich produce the HW, distributors, etc..
<lekernel>
yeah, maybe this will improve. but I wouldn't bet on it, though
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: they ask about mmu because that's the first thing they find that they both know and understand is missing. I wouldn't read too much into it, it's a process. I'm on that path too.
<wolfspraul>
you need to give others some time to catch up
<wolfspraul>
I learnt from lars that 'lots of programs want it'. ok. next step: which ones. then 'why do they want it'. then 'what if they don't get it'. 'what can i do without it'. etc.
<lekernel>
yeah, it's true, many traditional programs want it
<kristianpaul>
lekernel: diy != fpga, just wait they got cheaper :-)
<kristianpaul>
s/got/get
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: a mmap is just part of the basic infrastructure today. it's almost like asking "what if we didn't have multiplication" ? sure, you can work around it, but ...
<lekernel>
wpwrak: not everyone's running GNU/Linux or even Unix
<lekernel>
is a bit fed up of Ulrich Drepper style arguments "use GNU/Linux or die"...
<wpwrak>
lekernel: i'm sure that, unless MM1 is a spectacular failure, which is very much hope it won't be, i'll be a fine linux platform before too long. and you'll probably come to like it too :)
<wpwrak>
s/i'll/it'll/
<urandom__>
nah i gues there is more interesting stuff i would try instead of using it as a linux platform
<wpwrak>
urandom__: linux is just your baseline. doesn't have to be the focus of your activity.
<kristianpaul>
lekernel: ok, lets forgot diy for a majority of this, what do you think about amateur?
<lekernel>
hamradio?
<kristianpaul>
thats one, but there are others i bet :-)
<wpwrak>
atmel surely know how to design their chips such that they maximize routing complexity :-( the atmega8u2 is quite impressive in that regard. usb and power all bunched together, with three times vdd, but always other things in the way.
<bartbes>
oh wow
<bartbes>
so I read that pdf david mailed
<bartbes>
and I don't know who writes it, but he sure invested a lot of time in it
<bartbes>
he wrote assembly to call c functions
<bartbes>
then used that to create bindings to the framebuffer
<bartbes>
and then drew a mandelbrot
<wpwrak>
bartbes: looks as if it was david himself who did this, no ?
<LunaVorax>
Hello everyone !
<LunaVorax>
I have a precise question about the USB of the Ben Nanonote
<LunaVorax>
If I'm connecting two Ben Nanonote with a USB Mini B Male to Mini B Male. Will they be able to communicate wih each other ?
<kristianpaul>
no no !
<kristianpaul>
DONT do that
<kristianpaul>
LunaVorax: nanonote is NOT usb on-the-go
<kristianpaul>
just usb sclient
<kristianpaul>
if you want to nanonote to talk each other, try usign your PC as Hub and then asign IP in the same range to both nanonotes
<kristianpaul>
s/sclient/client
<kristianpaul>
s/to/two
<LunaVorax>
Ok
<LunaVorax>
kristianpaul, it would have been hard to implement such a feature ?
<LunaVorax>
Nanonotes linked to each other only with usb cable ?
<kristianpaul>
must be usb?
<kristianpaul>
you can use serial port..
<kristianpaul>
SDIO perhaps but i'm not aware of wich protocols support it por p2p links.
<LunaVorax>
I don't know I was thinking about a small port
<kristianpaul>
LunaVorax: yes it will
<LunaVorax>
Complex you mean ?
<kristianpaul>
it seems or that what i get from other people told
<wpwrak>
serial would work. you could use ppp ;-)
<LunaVorax>
ppp ?
<LunaVorax>
Point to Point Protocol ?
<LunaVorax>
wpwrak ?
<wpwrak>
yes. that was used for internet connectivity over telephone modems
<kristianpaul>
he that remenber me that i have a gsm modem somwhere..
<kristianpaul>
ah, i found cncmap
<kristianpaul>
now i see what i should buy in the future a MDX-15/20 if i want get in touch with cnc :-)
<kristianpaul>
future as is out of my budget now :-)
<kristianpaul>
or who know, inject technology is getting cheaper too
<wpwrak>
there are some DIY-ish variants that are a bit cheaper. you may want to look around the local market. maybe someone if making some.
<kristianpaul>
i want scan too ;-)
<kristianpaul>
may be laser and powder... there are so many choices, i'm not i a hurry so time will tell
<qwebirc83362>
hey guys i need a little bit of advice
<coopmeister123>
i have a tablet with a jz4760, any suggestions on where to get the windows driver?
<rjeffries>
reading #qi-hardware irc logs is fascinating! who wrote the prgarm that formats the logs? Nice looking, easy to scan.
<rjeffries>
wolf I have contacted a friend who can provide authoritative info regarding labels. His full time job is compliance
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: very appreciated!
<wolfspraul>
but... :-) you probably already know, sometimes I see rules as worthy following, and sometimes I see them as worthy changing
<wolfspraul>
doing that with truly experienced people on your side is so much more fun, of course
<wolfspraul>
the reason I spend quite a bit of time on those small bureaucratic details is because I think they will stay with us in the future, in fact they will become even more important
<wolfspraul>
I will finally try out sourcemap.org a bit now, always wanted to but now is a good opportunity.
<wolfspraul>
after milkymist one is done, the next interesting thing will be ben-wpan as an 'intentional radiator', some more fcc reading on the todo list...
<rjeffries>
agree with you pursuit of freedom, but not following the rules may cause real issues for your distributor. I do not understand the regualtion, so am gettingadvice. Trying to get it from two independent source. we shall see
<wolfspraul>
the actual regulations are far far more flexible than some people here think
<wolfspraul>
which is only natural since they need to survive in the real world, not in some engineer's dream of how the world is programmed...
<wolfspraul>
the reason I wanted to do CE and FCC compliance for m1 was because I like to know how well the product holds up as an actual quality product
<wolfspraul>
it's not just the label
<wolfspraul>
the label is nothing actually, it's about what it means
<wolfspraul>
and those standards are big, with questions like "is your product primarily used at home, or also professionally?"
<wolfspraul>
you tend to answer "PROFESSIONALLY!"
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
then the next question "also in public places like theaters?"
<wolfspraul>
then you go "ooops"
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
because you already know it will be about fire safety etc.
<wolfspraul>
"ahhh. maybe not.... :-)"
<wolfspraul>
now look at the fine print of any digital camera you buy, somewhere it will say "not for professional use"
<wolfspraul>
but why?
<wolfspraul>
some conspiracy theorists think it's because of some nasty mpeg licensing
<wolfspraul>
maybe it is, maybe not
<wolfspraul>
maybe it's just because when they went through the ce testing, they said "not in theaters"
<wolfspraul>
sebastien asked adafruit about fcc, the answer was "we don't care about fcc"
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
welcome to the real world
<wolfspraul>
maybe they are successful because they focus on the right things
<wolfspraul>
for me it's about meaning, not forms. get me into a lab, and I can be concentrated 14h / day. put a stack of forms in front of me, and on page 2 I will get really giggly and just fill out so that it passes.
<rjeffries>
Adafriot can say we don't care about the FCC but that does not remove their legal liability. If they ship a device that produces interference with other devices they can face substanntial fines
<rjeffries>
as a product manager, ne I alwasy focus on is saftey. that is the largest potential liability, and easy too avoid.
<rjeffries>
I once joined a company and took over a product where the team had neglected saftey.
<rjeffries>
in that product there were high currents, and someone culd reach inside and if male was wearing a wedding ring and his finger was even slightly damp from sweat would get a nasty potentially fatal jolt
<rjeffries>
so it was hard to fix but we did.
<rjeffries>
semi unrealted I AGREE with you that next revision of MM should include protection against reverse polarity.
<rjeffries>
I was in support department and the cmpany got careless abd shipped a product that did not have protection against reversal
<rjeffries>
I can't begin to explain the damage to custmer satisfaction and the cost in USD
<wolfspraul>
we are on the same page
<wolfspraul>
I said I am excited and concentrated in the lab.
<wolfspraul>
with the hard data I learn there I am well prepared to fill out the forms.
<wolfspraul>
discussions about forms without such hard data is a waste of time
<wolfspraul>
at least I'm not interested as you can tell :-)
<wolfspraul>
of course the power supply circuit on m1 needs to get stronger, but not necessarily for our next run of 80-90 units.
<wolfspraul>
m1 performed very well in the tests we did, sebastien made some wise design decisions
<wolfspraul>
for 'legal liability' - it's everywhere. lawyers advise on risks, business people decide which risks are worth taking. it's a natural give and take.
<wolfspraul>
successful businesses find the right balance
<rjeffries>
nods
<rjeffries>
How did MM do on ESD testing?
<rjeffries>
from context I assume EMI results wer OK and provide some margin
<rjeffries>
s/wer/were/
<rjeffries>
testing emi on a procuct that ships as a board seems like it would be a challenge
<rjeffries>
nothing to attenuate the rf that sprays out. ;)
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: So roh will produce 80-90 cases too ? or planning scale using china manufacturing rules..
<wolfspraul>
we are not shipping as a board
<wolfspraul>
I don't think you can do reasonable ce or fcc tests with a bare board
<wolfspraul>
I think the meaning of those tests is still misunderstood. mostly it's about consumer protection, or professional standards.
<wolfspraul>
we did a round of tests including the case, and including power adapter.
<wolfspraul>
what's being tested is the whole 'product'