<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: teaser3 is done in your scope as well???
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: with the data from the scope
<kristianpaul>
how how !!
<kristianpaul>
looks amazing clever
<wpwrak>
lemme check in the scripts ...
<kristianpaul>
what is your scope brand?, i dint dig yet what remote programing or data acquisition can i do witht the tektronics
<wpwrak>
i have a rigol ds1102cd
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: stores up to 1 MSa. or in this case (two channels) 512 kSa of each channel. unfortunately, your has much less memory. yours is a lot better for analog signals, though.
<kristianpaul>
hmm
<kristianpaul>
i', close to port sump to my avnet board so that will help just in case i need _just_ logic analizer thing
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: what was your model again ?
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: TDS3012B, no digital Channels tought
<wpwrak>
10 kSa memory ... should be enough for a single USB packet if you have sufficiently stable timing of the trigger
<wpwrak>
the digital channels on the rigol don't work very well. i think i'd rather have more analog channels.
<wpwrak>
of course, if you have something like MMC/SD to debug, then you're thankful for the digital channels. even if they have problems. (the problem with the rigol are that there are lots of glitches on the digital channels. you need to post-process them before they make much sense.)
<wpwrak>
hates atmel's convention of expressing register bits in C by their position, not their mask. something like three days wasted chasing an addr | ADDEN vs. addr | 1 << ADDEN :-(((
<zrafa>
wpwrak: I was hunting a but without success the last 3 days. So if you had some succes then you should be happy
<zrafa>
I am not :(
<wpwrak>
:) seems that my little stack works now. it even accepted the transmission of a 64+ bytes packet, which is what blow the freakusb stack apart
<wpwrak>
(didn't check if it actually sent anything, though ;-)
<kristianpaul>
yes, it was my first touch with milkymist in hw
<kristianpaul>
ok, i got a 61.2 us sample
<kristianpaul>
speed is fixed to 115200
<kristianpaul>
compression i guess not
<wpwrak>
so that's 256 kSamples that took 61.2 us ?
<wpwrak>
that would be a sample rate of ~ 4 GSa/s
<kristianpaul>
s/us/ns
<kristianpaul>
hmm
<kristianpaul>
no, i'm cofused
<wpwrak>
that on the other hand would be a meager 16 MSa/s
<kristianpaul>
sump.org/projects/analyzer/ <- more ingo
<kristianpaul>
inFo
<kristianpaul>
i still reading i think steve|m1 can quote something later, i new with this project
<wpwrak>
(compression) that's something the fpga could implement. instead of storing fixed-clock samples, only store a sample when something has changed. in addition, store the number of non-changes since the last sample
<wpwrak>
200 MHz sounds better :)
<kristianpaul>
nice it export data to text file
<kristianpaul>
100Msps captures up to 50MHz waveforms on 32 channels
<kristianpaul>
hmm i can get 8 channels with 24K sample depth
<wpwrak>
maybe your board's characteristics differ from the DO-SPAR3-DK
<kristianpaul>
still spartan3, but yes
<steve|m>
you could port it to the SIE :P
<wpwrak>
the DO-SPAR3-DK seems to have SRAM while the AES-SP3A-EVAL400-G doesn't
<kristianpaul>
you should go sleep :)
<wpwrak>
so you'd be limited to 368640 memory bits, if digi-key's spec summary is to be trusted
<wpwrak>
yup. xilinx say 360 kbits
<wpwrak>
(block RAM)
<kristianpaul>
steve|m: may be, if jlime can run the osl,
<kristianpaul>
but no time now, i got my dummy logic analizer, i'm happy
<kristianpaul>
steve|m: you have a sie?
<wpwrak>
it has tons of flash, though. so you could use that ;-)))
<kristianpaul>
yeah thats true
<steve|m>
kristianpaul: nope, but that would actually be a cool toy.. I like the idea of having the power of a fpga wired to a cpu
<steve|m>
is there a planned second run?
<wpwrak>
to analyze USB, you'd need about 50 MSa/s. so that should be within the range of the board's capabilities
<kristianpaul>
i dont think so... but who knows, but i'm sure if you ask some of the carlos studet may sell one
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: i cant usb now, as i lack buffer for 5v input..
<steve|m>
isn't USB 3.3V signal level?
<steve|m>
the OLS has a buffer :P
<kristianpaul>
ah is 3.3V?
<kristianpaul>
heh
<larsc>
xilinx is now actually bulding a fpga with an arm core the same chip
<wpwrak>
with an intelligent trigger, you could just find the "start" bit and then immediately sample the packet. well, if you do intelligent clock recovery, you can just sample at the USB clock, 12 MSa/s
<wpwrak>
USB D+/D- are 3.3 V
<kristianpaul>
good :-)
<kristianpaul>
larsc: spartan7?
<larsc>
uhm, don't know exactly
<larsc>
but they resently submitted support for it to lkml
<wpwrak>
with 360 kbits of RAM, you could thus record about 22 kB of USB data or ~350 max-sized packets. that's already a reasonable analyzer
<kristianpaul>
I wonder if the whole on-chip ram is implemented..
<kristianpaul>
well, i'm off, read you later
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb: slightly adjusted some component values for easier sourcing http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/138a1be
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak wolfspraul what you think on the last UBB mail with the price list, and preorder aproach time to announce on list?
<kyak>
when i do make -j2 in openwrt build root, does it actually build a package in two threads or it builds two packages concurrently?
<xMff>
it compiles multiple packages concurrently each with a single thread
<xMff>
we cannot pass down -j by default as many packages are simply not safe to compile multithreaded
<xMff>
trunk has black- & whitelisting for that and an additional feature to enable parallel build within packages
<kyak>
sure, i just noticed an interesting thing
<kyak>
according to make -j2 output, qt4 is already built (i.e. i see that next pacakges started to build)
<Jay7>
right now trying to benchmark OE with different bitbake threads/make threads numbers
<kyak>
but in ps i can see that it is still building qt4
<Jay7>
kyak: grep PARALLEL_MAKE recipes/* in OE may show you recipes that have -j disabled :)
<Jay7>
so, you may just use our results :)
<xMff>
kyak: maybe host vs target build of qt4
<kyak>
Jay7: yes, there is NOPARALLEL or something like this in openwrt, too
<kyak>
xMff: the output is currently at "keymouse" package
<kyak>
i see this: "make[3] -C /home/bas/build/openwrt-packages/keymouse compile"
<xMff>
I never messed with qt4 but afaik it is compiled for the host since qmake (?) is needed for other stuff
<kyak>
and "make[3] -C feeds/packages/Xorg/lib/qt4 compile" is two lines above
<kyak>
seems like finished, two other packages were built after that
<xMff>
*shrug* :)
<kyak>
:)
<kyak>
i'm just wondering if -j2 can mess up things badly
<kyak>
i didn't really try it before
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: you know me. preorder = fail.
<kyak>
though i benchmarked, too - it takes around 30% faster
<wolfspraul>
if you totally have to do it, then try to limit the preorders to few large preorders, not many small ones.
<xMff>
usually not, some time ago it used to fail in random places but nothing thata repeated make couldn't fix
<wolfspraul>
that way the communication overhead in case of unforeseen issues (read: always) stays managable
<xMff>
so it at least does not result in catastrophic miscompilations
<kyak>
ok :)
<xMff>
most issues are missing inter-package dependencies that are never spotted with a single threaded make
<xMff>
though some people invested quite some (cpu) time to iron those out
<kyak>
would be good to have an auto build bot, like in some linux distros.. It would build a package (each package, or every new/updated package) in a separate environment (minimal build). It would reveal missing dependencies and help find other errors, too
<xMff>
we have a buildbot farm but it is working single threaded atm
<kyak>
errors depend however greatly on build host (for example, i've been failing to build ruby for a long time because i have openssl-1.0.0) or other settings - like, usage of locale in uClibc or like different variants of iconv
<xMff>
bah.., 3M buildlog for qt4... everything about this thing is big
<kyak>
yup, qt4 is huge.. might be the longest package to compile
<kyak>
hm, vim also builds fine.. what's the reason for these false positives?
<xMff>
"make[#]: *** [...] Error ..."
<xMff>
its basically an rgrep over the buildlogs
<xMff>
the build itself runs with IGNORE_ERRORS=m so broken stuff is just skipped
<xMff>
I have to go to wrok for once... bbl
<kyak>
see you later
<wolfspraul>
larsc: about those fpga+arm cores. yes, that is not surprising and there is a whole wave of those types of chips going through the fpga landscape.
<wolfspraul>
I have 2 thoughts on this right now:
<wolfspraul>
1) some of those chips are priced very high, because everybody is testing how much value they create, and for whom, and who is in a stronger position, the FPGA side or the ARM/Power side.
<wolfspraul>
so if the chip is 90 USD or more, that's a big thing to consider
<wolfspraul>
also volumes are low, and right now it's just a test (there have been similar Power/fpga combos for a while already, and supported in Linux, but very expensive)
<wolfspraul>
2) I am very pragmatic on all this. If we compare a 'pure' FPGA solution running a free instruction set to a combo, we should pick whatever leads to an actually working powerful product faster.
<wolfspraul>
In any case I will only look at the free part of the solution, and try to achieve continuity there. So a solution like Milkymist SoC is more promising and flexible. But if a chip turns up with a great ARM core, and the core and overall system integration is easily targetable with free software tools, I would not hesitate to use it. Of course to advance the state of the free stuff still :-)
<wolfspraul>
hope this is not too vague. I keep an eye on the combos, but I feel very good with the Spartan-6 path of Milkymist and Milkymist One right now.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: regarding the preorders, they do indeed seem to add just unnecessary overhead. the money on the table would be EUR 450, which doesn't appear all that much.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: preorders would make more sense if you were planning to make 1000+ units right away, and need firm commitments for that. this in turn would only matter if your pcb fab would charge you extra for 500 now and 500 later, as opposed to 500 now. that's often not the case.
<wpwrak>
err, s/to 500 now/to 1000 now/
<tuxbrain>
ok I will take in consideation that non-preorder aproach... (me crossing my fingers and put tap in the ears to not hear Victor complains about money....)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: it would make sense to do 500 units no matter what sales projection you have. (well, unless it's 0 ;-) even if someone wanted to buy a few million pieces, you'd still want to have a "small" first run to see if things are alright, before committing to more.
<kuribas>
There are sites where you can order cheap pcb's for self designed open source hardware.  Are there places where you can have smd chips soldered on the board, or even build the whole product?
<kuribas>
Without a huge investment?
<wpwrak>
kuribas: if you had omitted the second message, i could have suggested some ;-))
<wpwrak>
kuribas: well, it all depends on what "huge" means to you. for the pcb, is a fixed setup cost of about USD 500 a lot ? not sure what the setup cost for SMT would be. probably at least USD 1000.
<wpwrak>
viric: you sound as if sourcing wasn't already a story co-autored by kafka, de sade, and dante ;-)
<kuribas>
wpwrak: I guess that's very reasonable, but for me personally it would be a lot.  There was a page from seeedstudio where you could make 10 pcb's for only 50¬ without startup cost, if you make the design open source.
<kuribas>
Maybe it's better if I started working on my smd skills :-)
<kuribas>
smd soldering skills I mean.
<kuribas>
When I look at the projects on sparkfun and similar sites, they are mostly build on arduino and robotics.  There is very little pro audio.
<viric>
wpwrak: uh? What is it about? :)
<viric>
wpwrak: I don't understand "sourcing"
<viric>
hm I got disconnected
<viric>
wpwrak: what is that 'sourcing' about? I don't understand :)
<wpwrak>
viric: sourcing is the process of selecting and acquiring the components you need for production
<viric>
ahh
<wpwrak>
viric: well, the selection could be considered apart. but in practice, the two are intimately connectd
<viric>
sure
<wpwrak>
kuribas: (10 PCBs for 50 EUR) sounds like a great deal ! there are also places like batchpcb, which have low cost. (but limited technology and long turn-around times)
<viric>
Well, I would not like to know that the Ben Nanonote pieces are produced in factories with a 'high score' on violating human rights :)
<viric>
or things like forbidding unions and things like that
<wpwrak>
viric: then you probably shouldn't try to find out ;-) i wouldn't expect any particular atrocities, but you never know
<wpwrak>
viric: hmm, in some places of the world, disallowing unions sounds like a most excellent idea
<wpwrak>
viric: (that is, if you can, because there they're pretty much equivalent to the mafia)
<kuribas>
wpwrak: It does.  I wonder if the same exists for smd soldering.  The problem is that the adc and controller I need are smd.  If I would sell a kit, I'd probably make a mess trying to solder those components ...
<wpwrak>
kuribas: smd is often easier to solder than through-hole. what packages are you talking about for the larger chips ? ssop/tsop/sioc/etc. are trivial. qfn is quite doable if you don't need the center pad to be 100% reliable. bga and friends would be difficult for manual soldering.
<viric>
wpwrak: that sounds like a usual neoliberal excuse :)
<kuribas>
let's see
<wpwrak>
viric: i would think less of the intelligence of the neoliberals if they wouldn't use such glaring examples of abuse of power for their agenda, too :)
<viric>
wpwrak: they seem to work
<viric>
wpwrak: On doubt, on contradictory reports from the workers union and the company owners, I go on trusting the workers .)
<viric>
:)
<wpwrak>
viric: oh, sure they work. they even make their employees earn a lot. e.g., a truck driver in argentina earns more than a pretty much anyone with a phd. the whole transportation system is also horribly inefficient, dangerous, and environmentally hostile.
<kuribas>
wpwrak: pcm1803 is 20 pin ssop, at19sam7 is qfn or lqfn.
<wpwrak>
viric: let alone unreliable. dangerous = argentina has one of the highest if not the highest rates of road deaths. and in a lot, trucks are involved.
<viric>
wpwrak: here, phd students rarely try to do any collective effort to negotiate their working conditions, too
<wpwrak>
viric: of course, whenever the idea of replacing long-distance transportation with, say, trains comes up, the trucker union start pressuring.
<viric>
wpwrak: it has become "trendy" not to do any collective effort to negotiate anything. And it's also trendy to untrust the unions, and their intentions of getting good working conditions for their members.
<viric>
wpwrak: ah, sure, this also happens here
<wpwrak>
kuribas: the arm may be a bit difficult. the ssop is no problem.
<kuribas>
wpwrak: Do you use any special equipment for soldering smd?  A solder iron with temperature control?
<viric>
wpwrak: what did the union of executioners do in Argentina, when they saw their jobs on peril? :)
<wpwrak>
viric: i would rather look for the flaws in the political system. this kind of unions is quite anti-democratic yet wields power comparable to that of the government. doesn't this make you worry a little ?
<viric>
wpwrak: the political system is biased towards the creditors of the political parties
<wpwrak>
viric: executioners ? huh, attack some islands ? :)
<wpwrak>
viric: there you have your problem
<viric>
wpwrak: and the first priority of the political class is to perpetuate the political class :)
<viric>
(lunch!)
<wpwrak>
kuribas: yup. a decent soldering iron, flux, and thin solder
<viric>
wpwrak: I know the problem. But those situations have to come into light. And when there is the option to buy one product or another, we have our vote when choosing
<wpwrak>
viric: for affecting working conditions, you're at the wrong place here. nothing sharism could do would have even the slightest effect.
<wpwrak>
viric: so it would purely be to make you feel righteous, but you'd lie to yourself if you thought you had improved anything
<wpwrak>
viric: if you want to make an impact, find the big buyers, analyze their sources, and then build public pressure if you find anything there
<wpwrak>
viric: if you can make apple, htc, samsung, nokia, sony, etc., impose requirements on their suppliers, then you have a chance of this to have an effect
<wpwrak>
viric: but small companies don't matter. lots of vendors wouldn't even talk to small operations like sharism because their volume is insignificant.
<wpwrak>
viric: small companies basically take the crumbs of what the big ones had. so you really have to aim for the big ones. or become big yourself :)
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: be careful about 'no preorder'. you may very well end up with a lot of boards.
<wolfspraul>
my point was more subtle
<wolfspraul>
on one hand preorders are good, they tie people into the project early
<wolfspraul>
make them prepay 50%! not 100%, not 0%
<wolfspraul>
on the other hand preorders cause communication and admin overhead that is often overlooked. that is the more so true the more innovative/new/risky a project is.
<wolfspraul>
because - if something unexpected happens (no need to give an example, you know the list is infinite), then you need to communicate that back to all preorderers
<wolfspraul>
and you need to give them reaction options a) b) c)
<wolfspraul>
you need to collect feedback
<wolfspraul>
etc. etc.
<wolfspraul>
it's terrible
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: naw, make them prepay 100%. we're talking about quite trivial amounts.
<wolfspraul>
so you should go for preorders, but you need to deal with at most 5 people or so
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: I think large preorders are ideal, because of communication overhead as described.
<wolfspraul>
that's a good mix between putting the risk on multiple shoulders, while keeping everybody fully informed
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: don't you think the first run should be small anyway ? 500, maximum 1000 units. see if anything goes bad.
<wolfspraul>
so if tuxbrain would have 4 people he knows will take 100 each, that's ideal
<wolfspraul>
100 for himself
<wolfspraul>
yes sure
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: yup. that sounds reasonable.
<wolfspraul>
I just share my preorder experience.
<wolfspraul>
it can be good, it can backfire.
<wolfspraul>
so my advice is: 1) deal only with a small number of large preorderers, let's say 5-10. 2) make them prepay 50%, that will keep everybody honest and committed.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: if preorders are really necessary, i wouldn't split them. not on such small values and with business partners who largely know each other.
<wolfspraul>
if you can satisfy those two requirements, that's much better than taking the entire risk yourself
<wpwrak>
i mean, it's not like sending a few kbucks to Happy No-Name Electronics and Rice Trading Ltd., Æ„â—Q
<wpwrak>
or Mugu Intl. Enterprises, South Cammer, Nigeria ;-)
<wpwrak>
(jtag) heh, so close ;-)
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: Adam said you fixed your jtag-serial high-speed problem already?
<wolfspraul>
cool, Adam uploaded really nice rework instructions. with those pictures I think even I could try :-)
<viric>
wpwrak: well, among certain public, having some good labels about good procedures and decisions can result in benefits
<viric>
even for the company
<viric>
wpwrak: I'm not trying to accuse qi of anything :) I just wondered, if part of the 'all free' politics went further in chosing vendors
<wolfspraul>
viric: I'm all with you. the deeper the knowledge the better, right?
<wolfspraul>
yes, I would like to know about social standards at component and part vendors.
<wpwrak>
viric: i think general egalitarian principles certainly resonate well with the general objectives
<wolfspraul>
but we have to be realistic. collecting this kind of data, especially if it should be accurate, is terribly hard and time consuming work.
<wolfspraul>
the only way I can see this happen is if it's some kind of wiki-style collective process.
<wolfspraul>
wikivendors.org
<wolfspraul>
a global initiative to collect all sorts of data points about every company on the planet :-)
<wolfspraul>
nicely meta-tagged, searchable, updated by 100,000 volunteers, by insiders of the companies (ideally in an official function and not as whistleblowers), and so on
<wolfspraul>
please don't expect that the tiny Qi outfit can make any serious headway there.
<wolfspraul>
I try my best, with the few working hours I have each day.
<wolfspraul>
I like sourcemap.org, for example. at least it's a project that seems to point in the right direction.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: correctly assessing social standards may be pretty hard. at least if you want to go beyond just western imperialism :) (like demand that chinese factory worker gets the equivalent of an average US meal ;-)
<wolfspraul>
actually I believe it is totally doable
<wolfspraul>
the world is not as black and white as we sometimes make it
<wolfspraul>
but collecting the data on a timely basis, and keeping it accurate - it can only happen as a big collective project
<wolfspraul>
no one vendor can do it
<wolfspraul>
I don't like the buy a product if I would know they put some 12-year old to work.
<wolfspraul>
definitely not
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: doable yes. but much harder than just collecting some statistics. you probably need to spend months on analyzing each location. establish local sources. validate them. and so on.
<wolfspraul>
we need to pull out this kind of information. but then it's not the core mission of Qi, at best we can join some other projects working in that direction.
<wolfspraul>
oh sure. that's what I'm saying.
<viric>
wolfspraul: I'm a subscriber to some people that investigate how production works. Every two month they analise some kind of production. Some moths ago they investigated the mobile phone producer.
<wolfspraul>
it needs to be a huge collective project.
<viric>
s
<viric>
wolfspraul: of course they analised only major brands
<wolfspraul>
that sounds good. I am 'investigating' dozens of factories for years :-)
<wolfspraul>
there are many worthwhile things one could improve there.
<wolfspraul>
soldering exhaust fumes for example
<wolfspraul>
really bad sometimes!
<wpwrak>
coughs
<wolfspraul>
dumping chemical waste into the next river
<wolfspraul>
excessive over-hours (80hr/week)
<wolfspraul>
I have never seen child-labor, in China that is really rare and definitely not happening in the core technology industry.
<wpwrak>
bah, lavish spare time :)
<viric>
exactly
<wolfspraul>
maybe it's more common in south-east asia or non-tech industries.
<viric>
that sourcemap looks good. I did not know it.
<wolfspraul>
yeah
<wolfspraul>
I like it too.
<wolfspraul>
but so far my participation hasn't evolved beyond 'I like it' :-)
<wolfspraul>
back to reality...
<viric>
:)
<viric>
You mean "keeping on ignoring reality" :)
<viric>
(temporarily)
<wolfspraul>
no back to the reality of how hard it is to collect this kind of data
<viric>
sure
<viric>
"How easy it is to get the information" is one of the score measures, for companies.
<wolfspraul>
actually many people would like to participate
<wolfspraul>
I wouldn't worry about that.
<wolfspraul>
also on the vendors side
<wolfspraul>
in fact you could easily differentiate and label between participating and non-participating vendors
<viric>
exactly
<wolfspraul>
where 'participation' is defined by certain standards, like response times, dedicated contact, etc.
<wolfspraul>
but it's still a huge amoutn of work
<wolfspraul>
and then you need enough critical mass
<wolfspraul>
(as always for new things)
<wolfspraul>
I cannot do much, except 'liking' sourcemap.org
<viric>
I was not requiring anything like that to the few qi workers. I simply had hope that in the ben nanonote world it would be easier to find people with such worries; easier than in the Macintosh world :)
<wolfspraul>
oh totally
<wolfspraul>
I am with you.
<wolfspraul>
and we try to document vendors
<wolfspraul>
but even then each vendor is still a big black box.
<viric>
Clear.
<viric>
we had a good documentary here... "programmed obsolescence"
<viric>
(and of course, a lot about designing the devices to last short)
<viric>
(is 'last short' the opposite of 'last long'?)
<wolfspraul>
unfortunately there are strong economic incentives for short product cycles
<wolfspraul>
short product cycles drive up volume, and the higher volume drives down unit prices
<wolfspraul>
that makes a strong recycling program all the more important, and one needs to say that Apple (the little I know about recycling) is leading there as well, basically they are trying to get every owner of say an iPad to always come back to a store if it's broken, and return it there)
<wolfspraul>
I read about a program Apple has where if you bring your old broken iPad to the store, they give you a new one for 99 USD? I think the types of defects that would quality were listed.
<wolfspraul>
anyway this leads in the right direction, products should return the same path they came from, because that's where the most knowledge about the products is located
<wolfspraul>
or alternatively products should be released with full and deep documenation, then it doesn't matter in which hands they end up eventually, those people can always easily (that's the point) look it up
<wolfspraul>
we are far from those noble goals right now, including Ben NanoNote or Milkymist One...
<wolfspraul>
I can relate to that ghana video, there's a lot of such places and the health situation of neighboring villages is the least concern of the owners of such places. so a brand manufacturer has the reponsibility to keep its products away from such irresponsible people.
<wolfspraul>
easier said than done though
<wolfspraul>
in China you regularly read news of a thousand kids suddenly loosing their teeth in some village, because some dubious factory in or around the village did some dubious thing that poisoned drinking water. not good.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: what happens with the people responsible for this ? nothing ?
<wolfspraul>
to be fair these companies are real bottom feeders and if you buy products from any brand company, they will by far stay away from such outfits.
<wolfspraul>
no, if the news comes out they will be punished severely.
<wolfspraul>
just keep in mind they are totally uneducated
<wolfspraul>
so the punishment hits them like a lightning
<wpwrak>
good. so there's at least an incentive
<wolfspraul>
they have no clue what they did, or why the kids lost their teeth
<wolfspraul>
not really
<viric>
wolfspraul: I know quite well about the 'economic incentives'.
<wolfspraul>
they are far too uneducated to anticipate the punishment
<wpwrak>
(uneducated) hmm, i see
<viric>
wolfspraul: optimising for economics (meaning positive balance in the company accounting) does not match optimising many other things that end up becoming "irrelevant" or "annoying" to the optimisation, like even respecting human rights :)
<wolfspraul>
well, I think it's also a good thing.
<wolfspraul>
a low unit price is also important to make the product affordable.
<wolfspraul>
in hardware high volume helps bring down unit costs.
<wolfspraul>
so if you design for short product cycles, you just fulfill a requirement of your own industry.
<wolfspraul>
the question is what happens with the returned products.
<wolfspraul>
if they are properly handled, what should be bad about it?
<wolfspraul>
maybe there are theoretical limits to how perfect recycling can be? don't know
<wolfspraul>
assuming it can be perfect, I have no problem to 'throw away' my phone every month, if that means a phone just costs 5 USD :-) (throw away = fully recycled)
<wolfspraul>
someone would need to find out what's possible
<wolfspraul>
I always wnated to manufacture something out of used ICs, just never had the guts/time/money to try...
<wolfspraul>
probably it would end in disaster :-)
<wpwrak>
viric: i think a healthy egoism is a good thing. that's a motivation i find perfectly credible and easy to understand :)
<wpwrak>
viric: the difficulty lies in making sure people understand what's best for them
<wolfspraul>
totally agree
<viric>
wpwrak: there should be some people doing the 'reminding'. I think all the current situation goes on only because of ignorance.
<viric>
and people expect to get a computing device for $100 only because they have seen devices at that price, ignoring anything behind.
<wpwrak>
viric: (ignorance) i don't think that's all. sometimes, you also need some concentration of consequences. like laws that are enforced.
<viric>
I don't think the problem is about telling the people what's best for them. It's only about keeping people aware.
<viric>
wpwrak: it's part of the things to be aware of
<viric>
wolfspraul: 'recycling' does not play a good role in the optimisation equations for companies, as long as waste can be thrown to "bought dictatorships offshore".
<wolfspraul>
I don't think it's that bad, really.
<wolfspraul>
good companies work hard to improve this
<wolfspraul>
otherwise our world would be a crazy place already
<viric>
wolfspraul: it's crazy in some places, not crazy on some others.
<wolfspraul>
the cases we are talking about are rare cases, and 90% or more of good companies work against this.
<wpwrak>
viric: plus, you need to have enough to lose to prevent you from taking crazy risks. that's why i see the most important factors for a decent society in a "middle class" plus a fair and functional legal system. remove any of these, and things fall apart.
<wolfspraul>
the internet can definitely make everybody jump forward on this subject
<wolfspraul>
wikivendors.org
<wolfspraul>
think about how primitive things like ISO 9001 or 14001 are in comparison.
<wolfspraul>
it's a joke
<wolfspraul>
just some formal procedures
<wolfspraul>
but those things are installed and working, so fine
<wolfspraul>
the internet and ideas like wiki/collaborative editing will allow us to bring this to a whole new level
<wolfspraul>
so let's just start! :-)
<viric>
well, there are projects where to collaborate. We are not the first on this
<wolfspraul>
we (the consumers) are far more than a few producers, especially the even fewer bad/greedy/irresponsible producers
<wolfspraul>
it will be very easy to single them out, once an effective way of collaboration has been established
<wolfspraul>
yeah perfect, then just do it. and share the links of good projects here.
<viric>
As with many other things, it's the internet against the broadcast media
<viric>
As far as I find anything, I'll let know here as always :)
<viric>
of course I thought it was more productive writing here than writing a letter to Apple or Nokia :)
<wolfspraul>
don't underestimate those guys. give them the benefit of the doubt at least.
<wolfspraul>
they may have very responsive people working on this.
<wolfspraul>
from Apple in particular I can tell you they are going into their supply chain several levels deep.
<viric>
hm I've heard some different reports
<wolfspraul>
Apple sends Apple employees to remote places (suppliers of suppliers), where no other foreigner ever has been seen, except people from Apple and crazy Qi people
<viric>
but Apple for sure is not the worst around
<wolfspraul>
I cannot vouch for such a huge conglomerate, but what I've personally seen they are really working hard on this.
<wolfspraul>
share the links of web projects, that can really drive things forward here
<wolfspraul>
like sourcemap.org
<wolfspraul>
calling it a day, quite late here... (will catch up later)
<wolfspraul>
n8
<viric>
:) good night
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i guess when you arrive at the mountain village to survey the manufactory, and they greet you with "you apple ?" because you're the second westerner in recorded history who has set foot in this place, then that would be pretty a convincing argument that apple do get your of their way ;-)
<wolfspraul>
well I had similar experiences like "you are the first foreigner since Apple in this factory"
<viric>
I know some 'foreigners visiting the offshore Indian factories'.... and some confident Indians told me how they rearrange everything just before every visit
<kyak>
wpwrak is showing some history knowledge here :)
<steve|m>
in the GDR stuff like this was usual as well, even painting the grass green etc. ;)
<wpwrak>
kyak: the potemkin meme is pretty well-known in the germanic cultural area. i guess it impressed them ;)
<wpwrak>
steve|m: ;-))
<kyak>
btw, it's not working anymore in Russia. The President is paying enexpected visits to airports/train stations, so they don't have a chance to prepare :)
<kyak>
(of course it's almost always working, i'm just kidding)
<kyak>
wpwrak: the years have passed, but they still remember :)
<viric>
kyak: there was a conflict recently related to doctors...
<kyak>
yup, exactly
<viric>
how did it go?
<kyak>
i don't know, seems that everyone just forgot it
<viric>
:D
<kyak>
couple of head doctors got fired
<viric>
normal
<viric>
Putin or Medvedev visited a hospital, and all was shown as if all went well.
<kyak>
the revolt doctor won't have a career
<kyak>
usual :)
<viric>
And then, a 'revolt doctor of the hospital' did a phone call to a TV show, and explained how bad all was there, that the nurses were doing the role as 'satisfied patients' in the visit, the salaries were unbearable, ...
<kyak>
funny thing is, his last name is "Khrenov", which is similar to "Dick" or, maybe, "Bad"
<kyak>
Dr. Dick he is
<viric>
I didn't know about two head doctors fired
<rjeffries>
off to take wife out for Valentines brunch
<tuxbrain>
I'm calculating costs
<rjeffries>
Ho Tuxbrain
<tuxbrain>
ok gentelman
<rjeffries>
no problem and no hurry
<rjeffries>
I am in review process before asking PCB fab house(s?) for quote
<rjeffries>
sine my main interest in me, myself, and I, if I can buy from you I will prolly not risk mt limited capital on this
<rjeffries>
s/mt/my
<tuxbrain>
I can advace you the price for 10 units will be 30 eur+shipping
<rjeffries>
nack later must run nnow
<tuxbrain>
ok
<rjeffries>
not a bad price
<kyak>
xMff: do you know how the dir is called where package building is started (something like *_DIR?). The problem is, $(FILES_DIR) is expanded to ./files, and when i cd $(PKG_BUILD_DIR), the $(FILES_DIR) is meaningless -\
<kyak>
so i plan to construct something like $(PACKAGE_SOURCE_DIR)/$(FILES_DIR) :) the problem is, there is no PACKAGE_SOURCE_DIR
<kyak>
of course, i could copy necessary files from $(FILES_DIR) to $(PKG_BUILD_DIR) (before i cd $(PKG_BUILD_DIR)) and use it from there..
<kyak>
xMff: maybe it's ugly, but it does work :) -^
<kyak>
off
<xMff>
kyak: $(TOPDIR)
<zamox>
hello everyone !!!
<zamox>
does anybody remember me from yesterday ??
<zamox>
I was the one rising probably a common , and (by some) naive question of the posibility of making the nanonote bigger in pixels, and imminent consequence of ram (probably cpu) ...
<tuxbrain>
hi zamox
<tuxbrain>
you have found some investor to do that? :P
<zamox>
well.... if you read the yesterday log... i mentioned that is out if my reach for now. I am in a difficult situation this spring (unemployed , no place to live, the usual stuff...). But i would like to know, (for the summer i hope) for how many zeroes should i look, or how many pieces should put this request in moving state ...
<Jay7>
cheapest way is do it yourself :)
<zamox>
that is out of the question... i do civil buiding services design for a living
<zamox>
well ?? nobody knows ? ....
<dvdk>
zamox: everybody knows but nobody wants to disappoint :)
<tuxbrain>
zamox: I don't want to discourage you but but asking for HW modifications, without knowledge to do a desing yourself or without money to invest in production is a no go. (BTW I'm was on the same situation like you , and I founded Tuxbrain) , really I don't want to be rude, mostly all here bring our best to make qi-harwarde posible, EE are doing desings and eschemas, some of us put some money and try to build a business arround it, some improves softw
<tuxbrain>
are, some improve documentation, some preaches the "goods" on copyleft hardware, some buy some devices, whatever help is welcome also of cours wishlist are welcome, but if you pretend than that wish become a reality, a lot of effort (applied knowledge+money) has to be spended.
<zamox>
well ... dissapointment is part of our lives .... :)
<tuxbrain>
and of course then someone(I mean thousands of people) has to buy what you have done with that effort, if not is a totally waste of time
<Jay7>
tuxbrain: btw, is hackable devices your project?
<tuxbrain>
nop
<tuxbrain>
I'm just a dude
<zamox>
well... i'v never demanded anything from anyone... just asking questions here ... i know some people with some companies ... i plan to make some presentations ... although the chances are small (2%) ... i think is worth the try ... so, again, what would be the sum, or how many pieces ? (and i don't want completly new hardware, i just thik there is a need for a bigger ben )
<Jay7>
sharp zaurus is a bigger ben..
<Jay7>
but not enough big and fast as well..
<Jay7>
and EOL'ed
<tuxbrain>
Letux 400 is quite more near to be a bigger ben
<zamox>
it's about some basic rules of marketing... attracting new customers is a question of giving something back
<Jay7>
wish to have replacement board and screen to his Zaurus SL-C1000..
<zamox>
Jay7: EOL'd ? sry, i don't understand
<Jay7>
End Of Life
<zamox>
i see ...
<zamox>
well is letux 400 os hardware ?
<zrafa>
tuxbrain: you sounded like carlos C. :)
<zamox>
tuxbrain: well... is letux 400 os hardware ?
<tuxbrain>
zamox: nop
<zamox>
than... is has no place in providing freedom for this hw type ...
<zamox>
imho, there is a need for a wider range of products that can be selled to other people than enthusiasts
<zamox>
this is a way to get clients... othewise , i don't think that there will be an investor knoking at the door pretty soon ...
<tuxbrain>
zamox: Is not copileft hardaware but uses almost same hardwer we use at ben, I have one, and I decide to not include it in our catalog, is bulky an slow (well is as fast as BNN) but for that size users expect a usual netbook performance and with BNN HW you will not achieve that... so I don't think is the way to reach that other people target.
<tuxbrain>
the way to go is a cheap Sharp Netwalker... but sharp with a lot more resources than us, has not done it cheaper than 400¬ to final user, and for that price you also had a pretty decent netbook
<zamox>
i'm talking copylefted hw only ... non-copylefted hw is already on the market
<tuxbrain>
of course, but that other audience you are searching for doesn't care about copyleft or not copyleft, it care about is useful for me and how much cost
<Jay7>
another thing I like to see is open Nokia N900 per $300-$400
<tuxbrain>
why if I'm not a developer, even know about  that leenuchs thing is should I buy this gadget if I can buy other thing more powerfull for same price
<tuxbrain>
and dear all open is not the way... the way is free (libre) , I'm start to be really piss off on people thing are similar things... (Jay7 no ofense please, mmm I think I need more caffeine or some sleep.... mmmm caffeine)
<Jay7>
tuxbrain: np :)
<Jay7>
yes, I mean free
<zamox>
well... that's what i was talking about yesterday ... The copyleft (both sw and hw) audience relies on principles and common help, development through participation, and not solely on feature/price ratios. But the main concept stands as the actual use of that particular piece of copylefted hw: the one that buys it, NEEDS to be able to use it somehow. I don't know if i made myself clear ....
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: you lazy (fu&/%) genious... I'm wikifiying the UBB description / production tips you have posted on the list... I hate you ,an the way gmail decides to break the lines...
<methril>
hi!!
<methril>
how are you doing?
<zamox>
for example: a person that does accounting , but also writes wikipedia articles and contributes translations to some projects, and uses gnu/linux at home, needs to have a bigger screen (a 10''), and office apps on the miniBen. He will probably not buy the nanoBen, but will buy the miniBen because he can actualy use it ...
<tuxbrain>
personally I think market is saturated of 10`` screen nettops, acer inspire One, asuss EEEPC, and there will be more ARM based cheap devices that can suply the needs you are pointing ... I really think NN form factor is what can make us different from the rest... sorry but I don't see much oportunity having such massive and strong competence on that range. but of course Is just an opinion.
<roh>
tuxbrain: what do you think about the 'inbetween' ?
<roh>
tuxbrain: like the sharp netwalker formfactor?
<tuxbrain>
netwalker was small enough to really fit a pocket and enough muscle to piss off any movile phone so yes Netwalker form factor is pretty acceptable (mabe a little bit lighter should be better)
<tuxbrain>
but the power of netwalker inside a NN form factor and copyleft in addition should be even better _P
<tuxbrain>
:P
<roh>
for my taste the keyboard of the nn formfactor is 'too small'
<zamox>
well... i tried... it seems that either i'm not quite sane in my judjement, either is a matter of having the oportunistic chance to post exactly at the moment when peaople who have an opinion are payng attention ... thank you @tuxbrain for your answers ! and good night/day to everyone ! bye
<Jay7>
like formfactor of Nokia E70, Sharp Zaurus 'clamshells' (SL-C7x0, C-1000, C3x00) and Nokia N900
<zamox>
bye
<Jay7>
but anyway I like NN..
<tuxbrain>
mmm I think I finally didn't discourage him but he don't like what I'm saying :P
<roh>
well.. its not about discouraging people. its about giving them enough hard facts to 'weight' stuff.
<tuxbrain>
Netwalker keyboard is a fu%ing shit, not for his size, but I preffer NN keyboard even that small, lot more reliable
<roh>
all these things have different weights and swim higher and deeper in the water depending on how many people buy them
<tuxbrain>
the best tiny keyboard I have found is the HP Jornada Handheld series
<tuxbrain>
I have done my University practice on C coding on the bus thanks to jlime and that little wonder :)
<zrafa>
tuxbrain: i have not seen better keyboard so far
<zrafa>
on tiny devices
<tuxbrain>
and zrafa are in love of that keyboard
<zrafa>
yeah
<Jay7>
cool keyboard
<Jay7>
really
<Jay7>
I have heard some good words about psion's
<tuxbrain>
the full the device(now) is bulky and very heavy , but such kb +3 times thiner an lighter device with Netwalker power+BNN freedom and price .... will be a sales killer :)
<Jay7>
tuxbrain: +1024 :)
<Jay7>
may be try to 'count' it?
<Jay7>
how much money we need to produce someting like
<tuxbrain>
in the range of millions dude
<tuxbrain>
$/¬
<Jay7>
yeah..
<Jay7>
why I have no some free millions?..
<tuxbrain>
and don't forget the time dude, sure a two or 3 year project , where you will not see any money income... and two years without you beloved millions in a market possesed by phone aproach is aloooot of time
<Jay7>
:)
<tuxbrain>
whatever , let's stop dreaming and do some work, wprak I hate your verbosity... really,(continue editing the wikipage)
<roh>
one needs to be verbose to be precise.. especially in simple languages
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: (wiki) heh, so you noticed that i keep on avoiding that wiki thing ;-)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: (zamox) he already got much of the same from me yesterday. if he keeps coming back, he may have the perseverance needed for this project :)
<tuxbrain>
he
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: (wiki) I hate you soooooo much....
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: (keyboards) hp make/made great keyboards. i loved the one of the hp100lx. the machine was a bit bigger than the ben. my first PDA, and the only one i actually found useful enough to carry around with me.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: (wiki) don't hate - find a wiki that can be used without a web interface ;-)
<wpwrak>
Jay7: (psion) i think it's overrated. it's not bad, but no comparison with the HP100LX. also, the overall mechanical quality of the psion (s5) is not great.
<tuxbrain>
there is not git/svn module somewhat on wikimedia available ? I think I have heard something like that
<roh>
there is stuff like ikiwiki
<wpwrak>
Jay7: e.g. i kept the hp100lx in my pocket. for the s5, i bought a bulky hard plastic case, because i was just too afraid to break it.
<Jay7>
ah, ok
<Jay7>
I haven't touched psions even
<Jay7>
just heard some talks :)
<wpwrak>
Jay7: the s5 was still cool. once i took it to OLS, and really enjoyed having a small AA-battery-powered device with lots of virtual consoles and a vi in each of them :)
<wpwrak>
Jay7: of course, when i needed connectivity, i had to ask someone to lend me their laptop :)
<Jay7>
:)
<wpwrak>
(wiki) what i'd love to have is a wiki with 1) some "regular" revision control underneath (svn, git, etc.), and 2) an offline renderer. i think most of the pages i'd write would have a single author, and may be partially machine-generated. the present concept of wiki is about diametrically opposed to the workflow needed for this :-(
<wpwrak>
of course, mail works great ;-) "fire and forget" :)
<tuxbrain>
you will repent of you words wpwrak when you see how pretty the info looks like in the wiki man,... (I have said that I hate you, isn't it?)