<kristianpaul>
yay ! next week i'll got my local made mm1 sheets case
<kristianpaul>
blue or smoke or red or orange ...
<kristianpaul>
ah green too
<kristianpaul>
hmm
<kristianpaul>
surprise :D
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: will they surprise you with the color or do you get to choose ?
<kristianpaul>
i choos
<kristianpaul>
e
<wpwrak>
which will you pick ?
<kristianpaul>
i'll dont tell until arrives, so more that one could get surpriced ;-)
<kristianpaul>
:D
<wpwrak>
ah, they do it just in time. nice :)
<wpwrak>
maybe wolfgang can then outsource case work from expensive berlin to columbia ;-)
<kristianpaul>
i fail to reply today, or they will ship it already..
<kristianpaul>
hehe
<kristianpaul>
lets see what i get first
<kristianpaul>
for me those 15usd are just lost.. until i get the package
<kristianpaul>
i could order other color and work but too late
<kristianpaul>
shipping is 5usd..
<kristianpaul>
but anyway..
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: columbia???? Where is that?
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: i think i should use a coin to decide on whether to put o or u. i'd get it right more often :)
<kristianpaul>
haha
<kristianpaul>
now i'm really worried if you can speak spanish... ;-)
<wpwrak>
or use the german adaptation "Kolumbien" ;-)
<kristianpaul>
well at least you do, wolfgang never tried.. :(
<kristianpaul>
lol
<larsc>
or be inventive and choose a name loosely related to the overall theme in here coulombia ;)
<wpwrak>
larsc: that one's even more difficult :-) perhaps we could just unify all vowels and simply use "a" (remove multiple vowels). calamba. that sounds friendly ;)
<wpwrak>
alright, it'l be a friendly language, without intense emotions :)
<kristianpaul>
hahahah
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: hey !!!
<wpwrak>
calamba actually exists, a city in the philipines. when you google for it, they show a little map snippet. i find the area above "calamba" interesting. "Mabuhay City Phase II". i thought cities had such names only in movies ;-)
<xiangfu>
Guest59538: Hi.
<xiangfu>
Guest59538: just found your IP show you are in Beijing :)
<Guest59538>
xiangfu, hi :-)
<xiangfu>
Guest59538: do you have ben nanonote?
<Guest59538>
xiangfu, yeah, I have one nanonote
<panda|x201>
xiangfu, it's awesome :-)
<panda|x201>
xiangfu, so how is life in ingenic?
<xiangfu>
panda|x201: sorry what you mean?
<panda|x201>
xiangfu, oops, you are not working for c
<xiangfu>
panda|x201: I am work for sharism.cc not Ingenic. :)
<panda|x201>
cool, seems Wolfgang hired you directly
<xiangfu>
yes.
<roh>
morning
<panda|x201>
xiangfu, so any fancy update?
<roh>
wishes flash would be more like harddisks sometimes.. waiting for slow nand
<xiangfu>
panda|x201: you can wait for 2011-02-14. or reflash your nanonote use the 2010-12-14 version:http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/OpenWrt_Software_Image#Image_2010-12-14
<panda|x201>
xiangfu, ok, I can wait, if it's comes with more apps
<panda|x201>
xiangfu, so you will release it soon in this week?
<xiangfu>
panda|x201: first release test version. then normal release.
<xiangfu>
if everything goes fine. today I will release the test version.
<panda|x201>
xiangfu, ok
<kyak>
xiangfu: what do you think about kicking out fbgs and ghostscript from rootfs and build them as packages? nupdf is much better than "poor man's" fbgs and ghostscript was only ported, to tell the truth, as a dependency of fbgs.
<kyak>
i'm not talking about the current release, just for the future
<kyak>
xiangfu is a crawling tiger :)
<kyak>
no chance of getting him
<larsc>
a ninja
<tuxbrain_away>
wolfspraul: I know you review the logs but just in case you did'n notice UBBs are on the go :)
<wolfspraul>
I don't always re-read
<wolfspraul>
haven't seen this one
<wolfspraul>
you mean you made the order?
<tuxbrain_away>
yep
<wolfspraul>
great, congratulations!
<roh>
tuxbrain_away: nice
<roh>
any note how long it will take?
<tuxbrain_away>
two weeks, but we announce and take preorders  later on today
<tuxbrain_away>
finally I decided to simplfy, so no cable, no cheap (and risky) shippment I hope you understand
<roh>
nice.
<dvdk>
xiangfu: btw looking at the 2-14 firmware changelog, zgv is missing?
<dvdk>
so what's the correct way of getting things into config.full_system?  just commit myself?
<dvdk>
hi kyak.  so already end of workday in china?
<dvdk>
:)
<kyak>
dvdk: i remember wolfspraul once gave a green light to add things in config.full_system
<dvdk>
well, since i haven't been able to compile config.full_system in months, I was somehow reluctant to add untested stuff.
<dvdk>
autoconf is really terrible.
<dvdk>
leads to different compilation action in config.full_system vs. my minimal one
<kyak>
i also have a kind of minimal set
<dvdk>
so going to commit and bloat the size of the next image a bit :)
<kyak>
i thought about removing fbgs and ghostscript, which is huge
<dvdk>
well, ghostscript could be a nice feature.  there is no proper replacement.
<kyak>
case anyone needs it, he can install it as a pacakge
<kyak>
i don't see it like a commonly used pacakge
<dvdk>
but were to get packages from?  do we have a repo nowadays?  compile oneself?
<dvdk>
yeah, current gs package is broken, btw :/
<kyak>
opkg install ghostscript
<kyak>
should be fixed
<dvdk>
kyak: you mean we finally got an up-to-date repo?
<kyak>
dvdk: xiangfu is working on release image now, with all the pacakges
<dvdk>
well, might take me some days until i manage to upgrade
<kyak>
i mean, all the pacakges are also avaialble separately
<dvdk>
they weren't until now, afaik, the repository listed in opkg.conf was completely out of date
<wolfspraul>
it probably still is. work in progress :-)
<kyak>
damn. i just CAN'T write "package".. it is always "pacakge" ):
<wolfspraul>
sorry for being slow
<dvdk>
binary compatability is a bitch.  i guess many out-of-date packages will crash when installed into 02-20
<wolfspraul>
yes, feel free to add something to config.full_system, I see this like a flag 'others please test it'
<dvdk>
02-14
<kyak>
dvdk: having a look at changes in wiki, opkg.conf should now point to correct repo
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: ok
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: btw what's the current release cycle?  one image per months?  or just release once everything is in a compilable state?
<wolfspraul>
he. good question.
<wolfspraul>
we have no 'official app list', or 'official supported programming languages'
<wolfspraul>
not even 'official gui toolkits'
<wolfspraul>
that means no test plan
<wolfspraul>
because no test plan - we cannot even produce 1 really verified image
<wolfspraul>
and because not 1, also no series of them
<wolfspraul>
in the meantime we essentially try to always just stabilize things
<wolfspraul>
I think the overwhelming value comes from stability.
<wolfspraul>
bottom line - if we can have a new image every 2 months, I think that would be great
<wolfspraul>
then I want to work a bit on smoother upgrades, via opkg
<dvdk>
well, last year it was one image per moths already.
<wolfspraul>
so maybe one day we move away from the images entirely, and there is just a stream of opkg updates? don't know...
<dvdk>
ubuntu is planning to use a "rolling release" model sometime in the future.
<wolfspraul>
yeah, I can imagine
<dvdk>
i like the snapshot images, this way everybody is seeing the same state
<wolfspraul>
however, I'm pragmatic above everything else. so it depends on the state of tools, openwrt, what works out of the box (in the tools), etc.
<wolfspraul>
sure but it could be possible to build an image out of packages
<wolfspraul>
for example we could build packages only, and the imagebuilder could still produced a full_system type imag
<wolfspraul>
image
<kyak>
this image is going to be pretty awesome. I don't remember if anything particular is broken
<wolfspraul>
like I said it depends on the tools, I am very careful to introduce anything that will become a maintenance headache - read: that will become obsolete later
<wolfspraul>
openwrt is working on some opkg upgrade improvements, I heard
<wolfspraul>
we are trying to cleanup the files, reduce the diff to upstream
<wolfspraul>
it's a flow type of thing. go with the flow...
<dvdk>
xiangfu: also a regression in config.full_system: it lists gnuplot-ggi which doesn't exist any more.  the package is nowadays named gnuplot-gfx
<wolfspraul>
kyak: we had this one pretty awesome postscript blog post
<wolfspraul>
about postscript as a programming language. I liked it.
<kyak>
wolfspraul: yeah, it's good. But it's size is 25 Mb after installation. Having it by default in rootfs is overwhelming. We still provide it as a individual package, so won't be a problem for someone who's interested to install it.
<wolfspraul>
if it's broken, that's a good argument. otherwise it feels painful to remove it with that nice blog post.
<wolfspraul>
but the rootfs is full, we need to compromise a little until we find a way to increase it and keep bootup time low still
<wolfspraul>
so many conflicting priorities :-)
<wolfspraul>
I trust your judgment, if you remove it let's move like that.
<wolfspraul>
you can also look over the packages, maybe there are still others that provide little value.
<kyak>
no, it should be fixed
<kyak>
(little value) openvpn :)
<kyak>
have no idea why it is there
<kyak>
and so php
<wpwrak>
my vote for a package-centric approach. you can always introduce "known points of stability" by selecting a snapshot (and, when that snapshot has problems, arrange your work such that they get fixed before more items in the snapshot get broken - not too different from how you work on a "one big piece of everything" system)
<kristianpaul>
Jay7: So kexeboot is ready for the nanonote? i saw your mail on the list :-)
<wolfspraul>
kyak: php is a scripting language, like perl/python/lua/erlang
<wolfspraul>
very important imo
<wolfspraul>
openvpn is about networking, and that's by definition good :-)
<wolfspraul>
I am on a 24/7 openvpn connection
<wpwrak>
(php) hmm, a language almost exclusively used for web servers (at least i've never heard it mentioned in any other context) ... "important' on the ben ? not that it wouldn't be nice to have, just in case, but it seems like quite the niche. okay, like forth ;-)
<jow_laptop>
I was shoked to see that the debian sheevaplug installer was written in php
<jow_laptop>
*shocked
<kyak>
yeah, php in default image is more than questionable
<kyak>
openvpn by default in network-less device?...
<wolfspraul>
sure of course, I want to add voip too
<wolfspraul>
offline rss, offline imap, etc.
<wolfspraul>
'network-less' is relative
<wolfspraul>
when I download music, it comes via USB as well, much easier than over the memory card
<wpwrak>
kyak: wolfgang won't rest until he has firefox and java, so he can run office applications from the cloud ;-)
<wpwrak>
(network-less) i think this will change a bit with wpan. right now, there's little reason to interact with the network from the ben. but if it can be a bit away from other things, this changes
<kyak>
i wait for wpan so badly :)
<wpwrak>
it won't be too long. the last days i've been cutting and etching boards. realized that the latest atben layout change squeezed things a bit too tightly, so i'm making it 0.1mm larger in each direction now. and switching to a metric grid. down with the imperial madness !
<wpwrak>
(metric) two key elements, the 8:10 card and the antenna have metric dimensions, so fitting them was always a fight. i'm still too much of a coward to also go to metric traces, clearance, and holes, though
<kyak>
hm, i didn't know Argentina wasn't metric.. Or is it just you?
<dvdk>
kyak: don't judge so easily about what's required and what not.  Currently most use cases of nanonote are curious things anyway.
<dvdk>
(about removing packages)
<dvdk>
php could be valuable for having host-accesssible web-apps on the nanonote
<kyak>
dvdk: i wouldn't remove it if we weren't so tight on those 512 Mb already
<kyak>
image how many packages could be fitted on 25 Mb
<dvdk>
kyak: well than i shouldn't port more packages, most stuff won't fit into the 512 MB anyway :)
<dvdk>
btw, is the ubifs compressed?
<dvdk>
as an alternative, we could do what many openwrt distribs do: use a compressed rom filesystem, and layer an ubifs above it.
<kyak>
first of all, there are no such thing as host-accesssible web-apps at the momnet on Ben. Secondly, i would argue against writing it in php. Overall, i doubt there is a single person who ever typed "php" at ben
<wolfspraul>
dvdk: we will increase the rootfs for sure
<wolfspraul>
why do we have a 2gb nand
<kyak>
that's the reason why we should keep the rootfs smaller.. realyl generic and commonly used apps  only
<dvdk>
kyak: i just wanted us to stay cautious.  maybe people have been using ben this way already?
<dvdk>
i already thoughut about using ben as a portable svn server
<kyak>
so that anyone could just grab and install an app you ported, and he would have enough space for that
<wolfspraul>
it's just about growing in the right way so that bootup time doesn't go through the roof. in my experience it's near impossible to bring it back down once it's over 30 seconds.
<wolfspraul>
we are at 21, that's already a few worse than I thought (I only did rough counting on my Ben, felt more like 17/18)
<dvdk>
also i think that having apps available from opkg is nothing to having them pre-installed.  people are going to judge us by what is pre-installed.
<wpwrak>
(boot time) or just suspend :)
<dvdk>
we don't even have a proper package-manager to search packages in
<wolfspraul>
dvdk: totally. 90% or more of what matters is out-of-box experience
<kyak>
at the moment, we can easily occupy 2 Gb with packages
<kyak>
who needs it?
<dvdk>
so moving sthings into packages means (mostly) to remove them from people's eyes
<wpwrak>
dvdk: (packages) do people judge debian by what is pre-installed ?
<kyak>
dvdk: opks search ?
<kyak>
*opkg
<wolfspraul>
not 'occupy', it's about filling something valuable in there. and also not the full 2gb as there needs to be space for data, like maps, music, dictionaries, pictures, etc.
<dvdk>
mpwrak: debian has a nice package manager that i s easily a4ccessible from the desktop
<dvdk>
kyak: opkg search?  won't call that a readily acessible package manager
<jow_laptop>
afaik the opkg maintainer did a gtk frontend recently
<wpwrak>
dvdk: naw, fix the real problem. packages are unavoidable. it only seems that you can avoid them because there's still very little stuff for openwrt. look at jlime. without packages, you're dead instantly.
<dvdk>
wpwrak: then the logical consquence looks like we need a graphical/gui package manager accessible from gmenu2x?
<dvdk>
maybe aptitude can be hacked to work on NN?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i don't like the idea of pre-filling the device. for the user, this then creates the problem that they don't have room for their own stuff and need to decide what of the pre-installed things they can safely get rid of. this is hard.
<dvdk>
jow_laptop: realy? need to check that out
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: if you really want to pre-fill the device, that should probably be in the form of a single package that can be removed with one sweep
<dvdk>
wpwrak: i thought that flash is relatively infinitely sized compared to the available software that can run on the ben
<wpwrak>
dvdk: i think a user-friendly package manager is important, yes
<dvdk>
:)
<wpwrak>
dvdk: (infinitely) only if you're slacking ;-))
<jow_laptop>
ah no, it was integration with packagekit
<wolfspraul>
those are all just theoretical questions.
<wolfspraul>
practically it's also about what actually works, and works well
<dvdk>
doesn't want to go hunting for opkgs, whenever he upgraded the firmware.
<wolfspraul>
I have no doubt we can find a really nice set of 'default' apps that fit in 512 mb. and then there is still another 1.5gb that is mostly only out of sight because we are trying to avoid the long ubifs attach, otherwise we wouldn't even talk about this now and happily keep adding stuff.
<dvdk>
doesn't even like using the package manager ubuntu after doing a fresh installation
<wolfspraul>
package manager is important for a smoother upgrade procedure
<wolfspraul>
and xiangfu has been working on packetizing more files
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: going to call you on that :) (512 mb)
<wolfspraul>
that's also good for others who want to build different rootfses
<wolfspraul>
if php and openvpn are indeed the packages with the least value on ben, and other than that 512 is full, then we have to look at a larger rootfs soon
<wolfspraul>
although I think there are lower hanging fruits (to be removed without loosing functionality), it's just that openvpn and php pop into kyak's eyes and he thinks they are not needed on Ben.
<wolfspraul>
if the whole rest of the 512 mb is already that good (like php and openvpn), then we must be much further than I realize :-)
<wpwrak>
dvdk: (upgrade model) i think this should work like on a pc. also there, you normally just upgrade your distribution without wiping out everything. the idea of a "firmware image" with a fully featured rootfs is fundamentally flawed
<dvdk>
wpwrak: i think a pc-like upgrade model will not be feasible for ben.
<wpwrak>
dvdk: (upgrade model) perhaps it would make sense to be able to "slave" the ben to some other device, though, to keep track of install actions. so if the ben is lost/destroyed/erased, you have a backup.
<wpwrak>
dvdk: why not ?
<dvdk>
wpwrak: we don't have the manpower to make upgrading work that flawlessly
<dvdk>
wpwrak: we don't even have a way to track binary compatability breakage with uclibc upgrades
<wpwrak>
dvdk: so you're saying the dependencies in openwrt are incomplete/broken ?
<dvdk>
wpwrak: openwrt is not debian.  it does not track package versions in dependencies.  also getting these dependencies right takes _a_lot_ of time, i guess.
<dvdk>
have you seen dependencies in debian like (
<dvdk>
checks his local install
<wpwrak>
because that's what it boils down to. also, i think one reason for picking openwrt was to avoid having to spend the full distribution maintenance effort in this little project. if this doesn't work, then the problem may be even higher up ...
<wpwrak>
yes yes, i've seen them. i even parsed them ;-)
<dvdk>
look at this dependencies (example):Â Â Needs libxcursor > 1.1.2, conflict with liballegro4a <2:4.0.3-5
<kyak>
dvdk: how can you think that 2 Gb Flash is infinitely large for 2800+ packages?...
<dvdk>
it must take enormous efforts to find bugs in these dependencies
<dvdk>
kyak: just assumed porting speed << available_space
<dvdk>
assumes that 1.5GB flash will be enough for everyone :)
<kyak>
what do you mean "porting speed" these are ported already
<dvdk>
yeah, but will they fit in 1.5GB space?  how much remains free?  how long does it take until porters can fill out the remaining space?
<wolfspraul>
there is no point in filling 2gb garbage to the device
<kyak>
it WON'T fit
<kyak>
that's th epoint
<dvdk>
then i underestimated openwrt's productivity
<wpwrak>
dvdk: (large effort) yes, i agree. that's why we shouldn't do these things within qi-hw. if upstream doesn't deliver this, then our choice of upstream may be the limiting factor
<wpwrak>
dvdk: e.g., we already have jlime with mighty OE (and complex dependencies) as upstream. there's also the idea of trimming a real debian down to an acceptable size.
<dvdk>
ok, i think the only thought remotely ressembling some kind of solution would be to get a proper (gui) package manager on to the ben?
<dvdk>
... or replace openwrt with jlime or debian :)
<wpwrak>
dvdk: (package manager) i think that would be a good start
<dvdk>
moved package manager a few steps upwards on his todo list
<wpwrak>
dvdk: then we can see how bad it really is
<kyak>
replace it, like there is gui package manager in jlime? :) or apt is even remotely working in debian?
<wpwrak>
dvdk: maybe it works great and the occasional weird conflict can be easily fixed. maybe not.
<dvdk>
kyak: kidding?  synaptics, aptitude, work pretty well for me.  don't know much about jlime
<wpwrak>
kyak: jlime still has a performance problem with opkg. but there's help on the horizon ...
<kyak>
dvdk: so you did try apt in debian in Ben, right?
<dvdk>
wpwrak: i think we'd need regular firmware updates plus per-firmware pakckage repositories
<dvdk>
kyak: i installed debian using the debian installer on ben, dude.
<dvdk>
took me a full day.
<wpwrak>
dvdk: that would be a start
<dvdk>
very nice watching aptitude grab more than twice the amount  of available ram
<kyak>
dvdk: either you have a lot of patience, or a lot of free time. How long does it take apt to install someting?
<wpwrak>
dvdk: then people could also try cross-release upgrades
<dvdk>
kyak: apt is fine, does use < 32 MB.  aptitude is terrible, though (does it invoke some perl code?)
<dvdk>
i think debian package database management is not properly designed, needs to pull the full database into memory for installation.
<dvdk>
kyak: btw using debian-installer implies that it pulled the full base installation via apt.
<wpwrak>
kyak: because there are only a few packages in openwrt. you should see it crawl on jlime :)
<dvdk>
not surprisingly, i then ditched debian for openwrt
<wpwrak>
well, in all fairness, also jlime has packages that we could probably drop
<dvdk>
wpwrak (cross release upgrades): how would that work?
<wpwrak>
dvdk: you install you base system, say, in december. then, when the february edition comes out, you upgrade with packages from there
<dvdk>
wpwrak: that would mean that you backport all new packages into the earlier firmware branches.  doable, but even more complex
<wpwrak>
dvdk: depending on how good the dependencies and how bad the incompatibilities are, you may just cherry-pick the few things you really care about
<wpwrak>
e.g., if you just want the latest forth, there's no point in updating openvpn ;-)
<dvdk>
wpwrak: what i was suggesting is that you have packages newyl build for every firmware version released, so you libariry version dependencies are fulfilled for sure.
<wpwrak>
dvdk: yes, i understand that. but that's also very limiting, because you need to replace lots of things that shouldn't need replacing.
<dvdk>
yes, alternative would be backporting, which is limiting in its way, too
<dvdk>
compromise would be to release firmware images seldomly and update the packages multiple times per released firmware
<wpwrak>
dvdk: also, do "core" libraries break binary compatibility *that* often ?
<wpwrak>
backporting is evil :)
<dvdk>
saw uclibc compatability break two times in half a year
<wpwrak>
that doesn't speak well for uclibc :-(
<jow_laptop>
uclibc compat can also break if its feature config changed
<dvdk>
this is going to be a library version hell with many interesting untracable bugs reported
<jow_laptop>
within the same version
<wolfspraul>
dvdk: but to be fair, it went back to the old version
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: this was  the second time it broke for me :)  see, i already had migrated to a hand-build firmware image featuring the newer version.
<wpwrak>
jow_laptop: true. how bad is this with feature additions ? i.e., if you enable new features, how likely are they to break other ABIs ?
<wolfspraul>
dvdk: you were the one who even brought up the issue (binary compatibility).
<wolfspraul>
so it broken, then we went back (fixed it).
<wolfspraul>
you were too fast, so you had to change twice...
<wolfspraul>
but we also concluded that binary compatibility is not very high on our priority list
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: hit me twice by surprise.  nobody seemed to send a notice to the list.
<wolfspraul>
only that next time we will manage/communicate it better, hopefully
<wolfspraul>
yes, agreed [notice]
<wpwrak>
okay, so uclibc is exonerated. good :)
<dvdk>
is looking up exonerated in the dictionary
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: openwrt is flexible, those different uclibc versions are just a checkbox away.
<wolfspraul>
binary compatibility just totally wasn't on anybodys radar before dvdk brought it up.
<wolfspraul>
that's a true oversight.
<wolfspraul>
but now it is on the radar, even if we concluded that we will not go to great lengths in openwrt to maintain it. so if something good comes along, or an upstream default changes, we change with it.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: yes, but it's also a dangerous checkbox. the more you rely on it, the more problems people will have who develop things outside of openwrt.
<wolfspraul>
but because it is on the radar, hopefully the breakage will be communicated much more prominently
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: no, inside openwrt you can pick different uclibc versions
<dvdk>
i'd say the long discussion proves that package-based upgrades are a comlex thing.
<dvdk>
likes the image-based release model. K.I.S."
<dvdk>
S.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (breakage) i would hope, though, that uclibc doesn't inflict breakage too casually when merely enabling features
<wolfspraul>
definitely. that's why until today for both jlime, debian, openwrt, all that is communicated is 'here is this image, reflash this and try it out'
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: ask uclibc folks
<dvdk>
im off
<wolfspraul>
n8
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (image-based) rafa already agrees that going package-based will be better :)
<wolfspraul>
ah, it's not late yet :-) so just: cu later...
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: my idea for the rootfs is to use the myroot approach. there you can make your rootfs "a la carte" from packages. then all you need is a "default menu" that lists likely choices
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: in openwrt, we will experiment with the ImageBuilder a bit more
<wpwrak>
so you can still have an "official" rootfs image (that's useful because it's one stop shopping for an initial installation. kinda like an ubuntu install cd.), but there's nothing "magic" about that rootfs
<wolfspraul>
the IB is supposedly offering exactly that kind of functionality
<wpwrak>
perfect
<wolfspraul>
instead of building images, we may try to build all packages, and then use the imagebuilder to build a 'full_system' type image
<wolfspraul>
there are many options everywhere, I'm sure there are options in debian and jlime too
<wpwrak>
yup, that sounds good
<wolfspraul>
one by one, let's see what works
<zrafa>
wpwrak: initial rootfs.. like the bootstrap?
<wpwrak>
i hope to apply myroot to jlime. should be easy, just didn't have time yet. (and nobody else has beaten me to it .... hi, zrafa ;-)
<wpwrak>
zrafa: the rootfs you install on a blank device
<wpwrak>
zrafa: it should probably be more than a just a menu with the installer, to give people a nice initial experience. but it doesn't have to be overly loaded either.
<zrafa>
wpwrak: wolfspraul : I really like the idea to use openwrt or OE to keep a good repository full of packages. And because those repositories have all the base system packages as well it would be great to use something like myrootfs from wpwrak. So all the effort would go to keep good packages already prepared for nn, and they live on the repo. All is there waiting for fun. And for the rootfs we could use something like myrootfs which just take the proper p
<wpwrak>
zrafa: showcase the ten nicest/most useful applications maybe.
<zrafa>
wpwrak: wolfspraul : and prepare the rootfs we want.
<wpwrak>
leave the rest to opkg/qpkg
<zrafa>
wpwrak: ah.. I see.. bootstrap + menu + 10 best applications ;)
<zrafa>
wpwrak: nothing that myrootfs or similar can not do :)
<zrafa>
wpwrak: let me move and I will find the time. Of course, for a minimal bootstrap I could see my rootfs and try to merge it with packages from current jlime repo.
<wpwrak>
yes, you could also start with a "traditional" rootfs. the advantage of myroot would be that other people could very easily make their own variants.
<dvdk>
about the myrootfs approach: could put that into a .cgi script hosted on qi-hardware.  customized rootfs downloads :)
<kyak>
that's funny.. there are ~1500 Ben users globally, maybe 50 % are active users and you are talking about customized images!
<wolfspraul>
even less. there are only about 1100 Ben users, and I doubt 50% are 'active', let's say defined as using their Bens daily.
<wolfspraul>
that number may be as low as 50-100? not sure of course.
<kyak>
maybe we could think like "is this patricular package presented on the first CD of Ubuntu?"
<wolfspraul>
it may be more, especially if you include people that use it once in a while.
<kyak>
then we won't have to argue :)
<wolfspraul>
I am not worried at all about these numbers by the way.
<jow_laptop>
you could just offer the imagebuilder for download along with the rootfs iamges
<wolfspraul>
what we attempt is truly different, and the nucleus needs to be right to even be able to grow.
<kyak>
me too.. i'm happy about myself :)
<jow_laptop>
then people who want their own images without compiling can use it to roll their own
<wolfspraul>
I need to sell 200 Milkymist One this year, and get some crucial community going there - that will be hard!
<wolfspraul>
but step by step
<wolfspraul>
things are moving
<kyak>
yeah, that imagebuilder idea is appealling
<kyak>
people could just tick packages they need, and viola - they got their image to flash fast
<dvdk>
kyak: then we only need a javascript implementation of reflash_ben :)
<kyak>
dvdk: yeah, i had that idea, too :)
<xiangfu>
kyak: Hi.
<kyak>
xiangfu: hey
<xiangfu>
about " fbgs and ghostscript " ,  the ghostscript very big.
<xiangfu>
never tried fbgs.
<xiangfu>
kyak: I got the new images: tered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify <password>.
<xiangfu>
-NickServ- You are now identified for xiangfu.
<xiangfu>
* Now talking on #qi-hardware
<xiangfu>
* Topic for #qi-hardware is: Copyleft hardware - time is on our side | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs | Welcome and please ask your questions...
<xiangfu>
* Topic for #qi-hardware set by qi-bot!~qi-bot@turandot.qi-hardware.com at Fri Aug 13 16:04:55 2010
<xiangfu>
kyak: the w3m show some X depends error.
<kyak>
hmm.. so bad -\
<kyak>
will check it
<kyak>
xiangfu: did pango compile find for you?
<dvdk>
xiangfu: this compile log is for an old version of plplot?  because it says 'checking for module pango'
<kyak>
s/find/fine
<xiangfu>
kyak: it try to using some libX**, maybe because I build all package. w3m auto detect the X and try to enable some stuff
<dvdk>
xiangfu: current version shouldn't do that
<xiangfu>
dvdk: ok. let me find out the current error.
<dvdk>
xiangfu: or maybe my last change is incomplete.  didn't come around to testing-building config.full_system yet
<dvdk>
kyak: so you did something with pango?  because pango seems to be broken, which breaks the plplot build when pango is auto-detected.
<kyak>
dvdk: no, i can't do anything to pango because it's in openwrt feeds. I'm asking because it's broken for me. And i'm wondering how even xiangfu managed to build it
<kyak>
xMff said that it is due to broken autoconf
<kyak>
and that he was going to backport something to help resolv this issue
<dvdk>
kyak: feel free to commit a patch :)Â Â nice, RequireCommand is a featuro of openwrt includes?
<zrafa>
wpwrak: with meego dropped it seems that limo and samsung OS (with rasterman on top of that as main dev) are the two big efforts to have a real linux OS for phones. The samsung with raster could be really interesting for something like a real linux as an option for phones. Check his words : http://www.rasterman.com/index.php?page=News
<dvdk>
xiangfu: according to plplot build logs, pango installation is corrupt, its pkg-config entry lists libarries, that don't even exist
<bartbes>
zrafa: meego wasn't killed, was it?
<bartbes>
nokia stopped working on it
<bartbes>
but intel's still there
<dvdk>
cu
<zrafa>
bartbes: yes, it is not killed. But well, there is a lot of noise about which is the future..
<zrafa>
bartbes: and the part of OS for phones on meego was made mainly by nokia I think. Moblin for intel was more for tablets or netbooks
<xiangfu>
kyak: let's think about "fbgs and gs" after this release. I will try to fix the sound module first. it's a very BIG bug.
<xiangfu>
like the supertux .
<xiangfu>
the icons and more program in gmenu2x. make gmenu2x load slow.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: are you looking for a high-res version of an existing picture ? if yes, just tell me which one and i'll dig out the original :)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: if you're looking for something with specific characteristics, just tell me
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: note that your will look different, because they'll have solder mask and silk screen on top of the copper
<wpwrak>
zrafa: (raster) yeah, i don't think he'd want to trade places with the nokia folks anytime soon ;-)
<tuxbrain_away>
wpwrak: yes I know, I will put a note in the product description about this are pictures on the prototipe, the production one might look different, and once  I have a production one I will put real pics, btw good pic :)
<steve|m>
now someone just needs to get the GSM stuff working on the mediatek basebands
<steve|m>
*just*
<wpwrak>
i think they need someone with cpld knowledge who can hack an SD protocol to whatever converter ;-)
<wpwrak>
anyway, back to fixing the atben layout ...
<tuxbrain_away>
wpwrak: I'm courious on the new size of atben :), you will reach the spetec wifi size level? :P
<steve|m>
wpwrak: btw, do you apply the Sn to your pcbs chemically or by applying and heating solder paste?
<rejon>
that is cool steve|m
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: it'll be about the same size as the models without a crystal. a little bit longer, 0.1 mm wider.
<wpwrak>
steve|m: i flux the board, then apply solder with the soldering iron. simple but effective ;-)
<steve|m>
wpwrak: ah, okay :)
<steve|m>
is getting all the needed stuff for etching pcbs
<wpwrak>
steve|m: what's important is a good flux. RA works well but is quite sticky. water soluble leaves a lot less of a mess. supposedly, it's difficult to remove, though. well, i'll see about that when any residues have etched though any of my circuits ;-)
<wpwrak>
steve|m: i had bad experiences with "no clean" flux. performed very poorly.
<wpwrak>
poor flux = more heat needed
<wpwrak>
more heat = traces/pads come off more easily
<tuxbrain_away>
wpwrak: any link with the steps to flash the atmega microcontroler?
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: on the uart board ? just the Makefile :)
<wpwrak>
or do you mean atusb ? there, it's ... just the Makefile :)
<wpwrak>
note that you need a patched avrdude. the patches are currently in the uart project. i'll find a better location later.
<tuxbrain_away>
when I try it my self I will do a proper howto.... developers... sigh...
<tuxbrain_away>
:P
<wpwrak>
that's not "developers ... sigh". that's "Developers !! Developers !! Developers !!". learn from M$ ;-)
<wpwrak>
dodges a flying chair
<kristianpaul>
tuxbrain_away: how to for a Makefile?
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain are you here
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain_away I mean
<tuxbrain_away>
yes kristianpaul, remeber we are also targeting Arduino hobbists (like me) so explaining what is doing the make file, having the avrdude patched as ipkg, the schema with the conections and whatever that make easier to reproduce the experiment is worth the effort....
<zrafa>
rjeffries: he is in spaim and their nice govs do not let him download stuff anymore :(
<zrafa>
spain*
<rjeffries>
I like how this tuxbrain_away tuxbrain David thinks. how about that?
<tuxbrain_away>
rjeffries: only partially, finishing all mambo jambo to let people do UBB preorders
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain_away when do you get UBB pcbs back?
<rjeffries>
zafra you are kidding, right? I mean, wtf
<tuxbrain_away>
In two weeks from now aprox, waiting for a more concrete date
<rjeffries>
whay qty did you order?
<tuxbrain_away>
zrafa: They can put doors on open field.. but is almost useless :P
<tuxbrain_away>
500 UBB on comming
<rjeffries>
congratulations tuxbrain_away you da  man
<rjeffries>
when does this go live on tuxbrainaway web shop
<rjeffries>
zafra what is a one sentence summary? it looks aweful and stupid and crazy and not practical to enforce. what were they thinking?
<tuxbrain_away>
rjeffries: today
<rjeffries>
cool tuxbrain_away your URL is????
<tuxbrain_away>
rjeffries: even the predident of the spanish film academy is against that but well politicians only care on money .
<tuxbrain_away>
I will do a list announcement when all is done... soon dude soon :)
<rjeffries>
I will tweet about this in a minute. what is a VERY short summary of law?
<rjeffries>
I mean the stupid law?
<zrafa>
rjeffries: short summary: no sure if this is a short summary but the idea would be to control the downloads, so spain could shut down users from isp, web sites, etc..
<rjeffries>
barthes identi.ca was first open twitter-a-like The founder is a GREAT open source guy
<mth>
the security problems found in the first version of diaspora suggest that the developers didn't understand at all how to build a secure web app
<mth>
they have since fixed the holes that were pointed out, but I don't know if they also adopted a safer coding style
<rjeffries>
mth bartbes I was a very early adopter of identi.ca (subscriber #141) in fact I think I was the first to sign up who was not part of the alpha test.
<rjeffries>
diaspora is a different recipie for the same dish. anybody in the open source world belongs on http://identi.ca free and libre
<bartbes>
rjeffries: indenti.ca is twitter-like, right? so 140 chars and stuff
<bartbes>
anyway
<bartbes>
next time spell my name right..
<bartbes>
that's what that tab key is for
<bartbes>
:P
<rjeffries>
tab key?
<rjeffries>
I use smuxi
<rjeffries>
barthbes identi.ca as a service continues 140 cahr BUT status.net provides complete flexibility to set your own limit
<rjeffries>
statys.net is the software under the identi.ca service
<mth>
rjeffries: I'll remember identi.ca, but so far I didn't feel a need for microblogging
<rjeffries>
mth understood irc is great for a focused community such as qi-hqardware offers
<rjeffries>
status.net <--correction
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain_away is the 35 Euro price valid for order from USA? for qty 10. Paypal or credit card?
<tuxbrain_away>
is 30¬+27,20¬(shipping) to US for 10units whatever, paypal has a 2,4% of additional charge
<zrafa>
wpwrak: (where laws aren't very strictly enforced) and your country has some Fundacion Via Libre fighting against all the goverments and enterprises trying to put those stupid laws :)
<wpwrak>
zrafa: yeah, but i guess spain has terro... err ... foreign agen ... i mean dissidents too
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: (ubb) "is tinny PCB" i think you mean "[it] is a tiny"
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: also, it doens't "expose the 8 GPIOs". there are only 6 GPIOs, plus power (permanent GND and switchable 3.3V V) you could write "8 contacts"
<tuxbrain_away>
fixed :P
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: i would also suggest to put the final prices next to the list of different quantities. e.g., not just "bag with 50xUBB" but "bag with 50xUBB (EUR 94.40)"
<wpwrak>
in the title, maybe also put the quantity for which the price applies, e.g.. "35,40 EUR (10 units)"
<tuxbrain_away>
wpwrak: the problem with that is that in some places tax applies and some places not, and is automatically calculated once logged and i think will create more confusion than help, and regarding the amuount on topic.. well I will put (min 10 units) due the same item is used for 10, 50,100 or 500
<wpwrak>
can you mention the price with or without tax ?
<wpwrak>
it's rather confusing if you have to add the price in your head
<tuxbrain_away>
ok  pic and price fixed
<wpwrak>
nice !
<garretraziel>
hello, new owner of ben here
<garretraziel>
I have only few questions. First one is that on the Qi website there is that newest image of OpenWRT for nanonote is from 2/14/2011, but when I run script reflash_ben, it downloads and install version from 12/14/2010.
<steve|m>
wpwrak: nice, the toner-transfer seems to work quite well with my Laserjet P1006 printing on the paper of a Conrad-catalog and toner level set to "Extra Dark" ;)
<sseago>
garretraziel, latest build is still being tested -- it's not released yet apparently
<garretraziel>
sseago: OK, thanks. next question is about gcc. I thought that nanonote hasn't gcc included but I have found it in it (and that is very, very nice). But it isn't working, it says to fail load some libopcodes module. Is gcc working?
<sseago>
garretraziel, you'll have to wait for someone else for other questions probably -- I'm a new owner here too just figuring out what's going on
<garretraziel>
sseago: ok, thanks anyway :-). and nethack isn't working neither :-(. that is shame.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: i wonder if the "(min. 10x)" isn't ambiguous. one could think the unit price is EUR 35.40 and the minimum order quantity is 10. I think it would be clearer without the "min."
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: btw, would you mind posting the specs from the pcb fab ?
<tuxbrain_away>
wpwrak: (min) is editable :) and I'm the shop owner so no problem :)
<tuxbrain_away>
wpwrak: (specs) what do you mean?
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: the board specification they sent you in the quote (or the whole quote if you don't mind revealing the production cost)
<tuxbrain_away>
I will add a full report on manufacturing on the wiki, but not today.. I will wait until I see the result and I have time... even maybe if the manufacturers agree, have a visit well will see, regarding price...  an euro unit first 500 , cheaper next 500 the exact price of the second batchs well be known once the second batch is inquired :P