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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Josh_2>
Mornin' beach
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<matzy_>
would anyone be willing to look at this (super-short) lisp program and tell me what I'm doing wrong? My only issue is the "/store_page_view" route
<matzy_>
can you not increate global vars inside router calls like that?
<beach>
Are you sure it is not *content-type* rather than content-type*?
<beach>
Also (setq *page-views* (+ *page-views* 1)) is better expressed as (incf *page-views*), so I guess there is more than one issue.
<beach>
Though perhaps you should say more about what indications you have that you are doing something wrong.
<beach>
I guess I don't know what "increate" means.
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<matzy_>
sorry, meant to say increase. i've started learning hunchentoot and wanted to write a simple route that returns to the user how many times they've hit that particular route
<Nilby>
I'm sorry if this is a FAQ, but how can I compile an ASDF system with optimization declarations without permanently changing the global environment or altering the .asd ? Do I have to make a temporary around-compile method or something?
<minion>
Nilby, memo from pjb: read-intern is not enough, you also want to do something with non-symbol tokens. Also, intern comes a little late: we've already split a package name and a symbol name! You want to parse the symbol token earlier. See: readtable-parse-token in https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp-reader/reader.lisp
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<beach>
matzy_: And what is not working about it?
<matzy_>
well actually since i used your incf i was able to load the page without any server errors, but it's also not printing `(format t "~d" *page-views*)`
<beach>
matzy_: You need to tell us what you expected, and what you observed instead. Otherwise, it is very hard to figure out what the problem might be.
<beach>
matzy_: I don't suppose you want us to execute your code and look for ourselves.
<beach>
matzy_: The stream might be buffered. Perhaps you need to use FINISH-OUTPUT.
<beach>
matzy_: Using INCF rather than what you had should not make a difference.
<matzy_>
well i made a global variable *page-views* and set it to 0, then created a route ("store_page_view") that ideally would increment *page-views* each time that route was hit. I kept getting 500 errors until i switched `(setq *page-views* (+ *page-views* 1))` for `(incf *page-views*)` as beach suggested, and now I receive no more server errors but
<matzy_>
don't get the `(format t "~d" *page-views*)` which is supposed to be the last part of the route
<beach>
matzy_: I give up. You still haven't told us what the errors are, and it seems unlikely you are going to. I'll leave you in the capable hands of other #lisp participants.
<matzy_>
hopefully that explains that i was trying to get at
<matzy_>
well ever since switching to incf i don't get 500 errors anymore, i just dont see that final (format t *page-views*) printed on the screen. that's the only remaining issue
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<matzy_>
sorry if that's not enough, i thought writing such a route would be fairly simple for learning
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<matzy_>
and once i switched to incf i stopped encountering any more errors, besides one network error: "The character encoding of the plain text document was not declared. The document will render with garbled text in some browser configurations if the document contains characters from outside the US-ASCII range. The character encoding of the file needs to
<matzy_>
be declared in the transfer protocol or file needs to use a byte order mark as an encoding signature. store_page_view"
<matzy_>
but before it was all 500 errors, and i dont see why my previous method didnt work. i've done some reading on incf since you mentioned it, and while i kinda get it, i dont know why i went from a 500 error to no breaking errors
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<matzy_>
it's ok though, i'll keep reading through PCL and should be able to figure it out between that and the hunchentoot docs
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<beach>
We should establish some guidelines to authors of ELS paper submissions. It seems I keep repeating the same remarks for every paper I am refereeing.
<aeth>
What remarks do you repeat?
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<beach>
People often write descriptive abstracts, but informative abstracts are more appropriate for this kind of work.
<beach>
People use demonstrative pronouns without a following noun phrase, making it ambiguous what is referred to.
<beach>
People use genitive 's or s' with non-proper nouns which makes it harder to see the relevant word.
<beach>
People have a tendency to include dangling participles, which annoys some readers, and the result can be quite humorous (unintentionally, of course).
<beach>
Also misplaced modifiers can be quite hilarious.
<HiRE>
having gotten my first taste of writing conference papers
<HiRE>
writing papers is difficult
<HiRE>
it truly is an art in itself
<beach>
People use URLs in bibliographies, but the bibliography should contain documents that will never change.
<HiRE>
beach, how do you expect people to cite sources that dont have DOIs
<HiRE>
?
<beach>
I use footnotes for those.
<HiRE>
thats fair
<beach>
They just don't belong in the bibliography.
<HiRE>
also a good idea.
<HiRE>
My advisor allowed me to include urls in my bibliography in my latest paper (there were some foreign papers I referenced that didnt have DOIs)
<HiRE>
but I should suggest to him we place them in footnotes
<HiRE>
that is a good idea.
<beach>
The ACM recommends that you then associate the URL with a date.
<beach>
aeth: Is that enough for starters?
<HiRE>
what a strange situation I've found myself in. Not the right channel but interesting none the less.
<HiRE>
I am connected to IRC talking to you.
<HiRE>
I cannot connect to my router
<HiRE>
via 192.168.1.1
<HiRE>
im a perplexed
<HiRE>
i am*
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<aeth>
Well, there are ways to get a "permanent" URL, like archive.org
<beach>
That's fine in the bibliography.
<beach>
What is not fine is a thing that can change over time.
<beach>
aeth: Is that enough for starters?
<aeth>
yes
<pjb>
Nilby: there is no conforming way to determine the current settings of optimization declarations. There may be implementation specific ways. Optimization declarations are basically global, but there's no way to set them dynamically.
<aeth>
beach: Can you elaborate on descriptive vs. informative abstracts?
<pjb>
Nilby: so you have to choose what are your default optimizations level, and you can set them temporarily and reset them once it's done.
<beach>
aeth: Google gives you a good summary.
<aeth>
ah, okay, it's a very standard thing apparently.
<beach>
aeth: Yes, everything I mentioned is standard. Those are elementary rules of scientific and technical writing.
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<beach>
Here is an example of a misplaced modifier (heard on French TV the other day): "Four months pregnant, the fire fighters drover her to the hospital"
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<beach>
Here is an example of a dangling participle: "Compiling the source code, the file is translated from text to binary"
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<Nilby>
pjb: Thank you for answering. That's what I thought. It doesn't bode well for making a nice compile command. Yet, there must be some way.. since it may be unportable, but proclaim seems to be enclosed in a with-compilation-unit?
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<pjb>
Nilby: The specification of with-compilation-unit doesn't mention proclaim or declaim, and proclaim and declaim don't mention compilation-units.
<pjb>
Nilby: AFAICS, they are two entirely orthogonal concepts. (Agreed, they probably should have not been).
<pjb>
Nilby: also, note that while with-compilation-unit has an implicit PROGN, adding a LOCALLY wouldn't help, since this would work only for lexical declarations, but you want dynamic declarations of optimization…
<pjb>
Nilby: We'd need a TEMPORARILY operator for dynamic declarations…
<Nilby>
I first tried LOCALLY, and was a bit dismayed when it didn't work,
<Nilby>
But SBCL has this :policy option to with-compilation-unit
<Nilby>
which basiclly does what I want
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<Nilby>
pjb: Ah ha! it's portably non-portable! see the hack that is (uiop/lisp-build:get-optimization-settings)
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<pjb>
Oh good. I didn't think it was possible in so many implementations.
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<Nilby>
I thought that it seemed like ASDF did it somehow.
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<Nilby>
with-optimization-settings works nicely. Now I have a nice compile/load command. Thanks Faré and all the CL implementation hackers!
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<jeosol>
Very nice Shinmera. The SBCL column lights up green and all 100%.
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<z0d>
nice TLD
<Shinmera>
Yeah, thanks, Chile
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<chrpape>
Nice, thx!
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<pjb>
Shinmera: shouldn't that be portabilidad.cl rather?
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<phoe>
CL = Chile Lisp
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<oni-on-ion>
Shinmera, awesome !
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<pfdietz>
I am wondering how much of the redness there requires changes to the CL implementations. Most of it?
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<oni-on-ion>
i have to disable Dark Mode to see the colors
<Bike>
some of them could probably be defined but might need to use unexported interfaces
<Bike>
like dissect and maybe trivial-cltl2
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<Bike>
with-current-source-form, extensible-sequences, static-vectors, global-vars.... that's all stuff that an implementation is probably going to advertise if it implements, so it's probalby nto implemented in the reds
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<Shinmera>
pfdietz: As far as I know a lot is on both sides. A lot of implementation features are also there, but not documented or 'officially supported' so the library doesn't have it included.
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<Shinmera>
The percentages are also all very approximate right now, as I lack the time to do a thorough audit of supported features.
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<oni-on-ion>
what is the *?
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<phoe>
mouseover above it and read the alt-text
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<Xach>
ahh. i looked at it on my phone.
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<oni-on-ion>
phoe, ah, thanks. (no mouse)
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<matzy_>
how does one install a quicklisp package for a specific project? right now i'm just calling `(ql:quickload :my-package), but is that the proper way to do it? or should it be handled like npm packages, where you install the package project-wide, and then just call it in the files where it's needed?
<jmercouris>
matzy_82: look at .asd files in other projects to get more ideas
<jmercouris>
matzy_82: then place your whole system in a place that quicklisp can find it, local projects is a good one, then $lisp, (ql:quickload :my-system)
<matzy_82>
so do you write your asdf file from scratch?
<matzy_82>
and if i use quickproject, what if I come across other dependencies I need that I didnt think of initially when doing the initial :depends-on?
<jmercouris>
matzy_82: usually, yes
<jmercouris>
matzy_82: you'll just add them
<jmercouris>
the format is meant to be human readable/editable
<splittist>
you just edit and add. Remember that when you ql:quickload something during development to also add that dependency to the asd
<matzy_82>
this is really helpful, thank you both
<jmercouris>
no problem, good luck
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<matzy_>
ugh i keep getting kicked off
<matzy_>
but in the cl-webengine project, how did you know what to put for all those constants?
<jmercouris>
author can be anything, description can be anything
<jmercouris>
license can be anything, as can version
<matzy_>
oh wow ok
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<jmercouris>
serial is the simplest type of loading, the files will just be loaded in order
<matzy_>
so you can just fill in anything for those fields basically
<jmercouris>
I suggest that for a beginner
<jmercouris>
yes, you can
<jmercouris>
and then the :depends-on is just a list of dependencies
<matzy_>
that's kinda weird lol
<matzy_>
so what that dependency depends on?
<jmercouris>
it is saying that cl-webengine depends on :cffi
<jmercouris>
the order is irrelevant there
<matzy_>
why isnt cffi defined in your asdf file?
<matzy_>
its a package too, right?
<jmercouris>
CFFI is a system
<jmercouris>
it is not mine, it is someone elses
<jmercouris>
it is a dependency
<jmercouris>
I could have put :alexandria there, or whatever
<jmercouris>
and it would have loaded it
<matzy_>
interesting. ok, just making sure, so cl-webengine isnt something you wrote yourself, it's something one could fine on quicklisp
<matzy_>
*find
<jmercouris>
yes it is
<jmercouris>
I wrote cl-webengine
<matzy_>
ohhh ol
<matzy_>
*ok
<jmercouris>
quicklisp can install your OWN projects as well as REMOTE projects
<jmercouris>
from a repository
<jmercouris>
"install" is a nebulous term here
<matzy_>
got it
<jmercouris>
it doesn't really make much sense, but I am trying to use normal words
<matzy_>
no this is the best explanation i've gotten so far
<matzy_>
i really appreciate your time
<jmercouris>
no worries
<jmercouris>
feel free to message me privately if you wish to avoid flooding the channel
<matzy_>
so if i want to use some package on quicklisp, i need to put it in the asdf file, and then quickload it when i need it in a file
<jmercouris>
yes, i believe so
<jmercouris>
so let's say you want to use alexandria
<jmercouris>
you would put it into your asd file, and then quickload your project, and it would load alexandria for you
<phoe>
matzy_: there's two different things - packages, and systems
<phoe>
they're kinda orthogonal to each other
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<jmercouris>
a system is just a collection of lisp files, think of it that way
<phoe>
a package is a collection of Lisp symbols that exposes some functionality
<phoe>
a system is a collection of Lisp files that are loaded together to implement some functionality
<phoe>
a package can be modified by multiple systems, a system can have multiple packages
<matzy_>
so is huchentoot a system or package?
<phoe>
both!
<jmercouris>
thats where the confusion is
<phoe>
that's a part of the confusion
<jmercouris>
often they use the same name
<splittist>
matzy_: One approach. 1. Have an idea and give it a cool name. 2. Create a new directory in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ called 'coolname' 2. Add a coolname.asd, package.lisp, README.md and coolname.lisp to that directory 3. Do whatever gittery you like on the coolname directory. 4. ql:quickload "coolname" 5. profit.
<jmercouris>
they could have named their system potato, and made a package carrot
<phoe>
there is a system named "hunchentoot" that contains the definition for the package "hunchentoot"
<jmercouris>
but they usually name the project and system potato, as well as the package
<phoe>
if you (ql:quickload :hunchentoot), the system is loaded; in effect, a package is created and populated with all the code stuffs of hunchentoot
<jmercouris>
so you would (ql:quickload :potato) and then (potato:grow)
<jmercouris>
but it could just as well be (ql:quickload :potato) and then (carrot:grow)
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<matzy_>
this is clearing up so many of my questions
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<matzy_>
you guys are freaking awesome
<matzy_>
i cant thank you enough for taking the time to explain all this
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<matzy_>
my first try at a common lisp project is to build a simple api that handles GET and POSTs and sends back JSON to a react front-end
<jmercouris>
maybe you write a tutorial for newcomers :-)
<phoe>
matzy_: that's doable, yes
<matzy_>
if i ever get this 100% down i honestly will
<phoe>
I've never done much web stuff in Lisp, but there's people who do that
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<phoe>
matzy_: /join #lispweb
<jmercouris>
I've done a lot of web stuff in Lisp
<phoe>
also /join #clschool if you haven't done that yet
<jmercouris>
the README is more than enough to get you started
<matzy_>
just joined both groups, thanks for the recommemdatinso
<matzy_>
i have a meeting to run to, but that you all for explaining this to me. i'm literally going to save our entire conversation so i read through it several times and hopefully grok it sooner or later
<matzy_>
*thank you all
<phoe>
matzy_: no need to
<phoe>
this channel is logged
<phoe>
see the topic for the channel logs if you want to read stuff later
<matzy_>
can you do that through the webchat.freenode.net site?
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<jmercouris>
no problem
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<pfdietz>
asd files can be written from scratch, or you can use package-inferred-system, which automates a lot of the dependencies. Not everyone likes the restrictions this places on the system, though.
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<phoe>
or you can (ql:quickload :quickproject) for a simple project skeleton
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<asarch>
(if t t (not t))
<beach>
?
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<phoe>
;=> t
<jackdaniel>
3
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<rpg>
fe[nl]ix: you there?
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<fe[nl]ix>
yes
<Fade>
o/
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<rpg>
@fe[nl]ix: Have you any wisdom about dividing CL jobs on Travis with shared builds? I have a test suite for the github.com://shop-planner/shop3 system that runs very long, so I smashed it into a bunch of sub jobs to avoid time-outs. But it is stupid and wasteful of me to repeat the builds over and over, just so I can do a lot of different tests.
<fe[nl]ix>
switch to a paying plan and you get longer timeouts
<fe[nl]ix>
fancier solutions are not worth the time
<fe[nl]ix>
the default timeout is barely sufficient for testing small libraries
<fe[nl]ix>
which I guess is indented
<rpg>
oh, thanks! I was just wondering if there was any way to have multiple elements of the matrix share a single built lisp image.
<fe[nl]ix>
I think they have some way to setup an artifact cache
<rpg>
Yes, there is a cache, but they don't explain its function well. Really, I hate to complain about a group that's doing so much for the community, but the Travis docs are really terrible.
<fe[nl]ix>
try adding ~/.cache/common-lisp there and see what happens
<rpg>
Thanks! I'll do that!
<rpg>
I'll report back if it works.
<rpg>
seems like moving the build into `before_install` might also be important.
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<rpg>
@fe[nl]ix: Actually, it looks like the cache is intended to help Travis between runs, instead of within a single one, judging from https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/caching/
<fe[nl]ix>
yes
<rpg>
That's probably right, because a cache could get into trouble -- ASDF is not concurrency-safe.
<fe[nl]ix>
I think I misunderstood you
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<fe[nl]ix>
you want to parallelize the test suite, then ?
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<rpg>
What I have is about 12 jobs for each of two configurations (SBCL and CCL). So it would be nice to only build the two configurations once.
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<fe[nl]ix>
maybe someone here knows better
<fe[nl]ix>
I've never tried that
<rpg>
Thanks for the help, though -- I was able to use your CIM setup and get my tests running successfully. Now I'm just trying to make things a little better.
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<rpg>
Going now, but thanks again -- that setup information was super helpful!
<aeth>
Okay, so if my connection drops when Quicklisp is updating, it freezes the download. And then if I cancel that, Quicklisp thinks that I'm on the latest dist and winds up in this broken in-between state.
<aeth>
This has had to have happened to someone before. How do you get Quicklisp to realize that it's not correct?
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<Shinmera>
It's not in a broken state.
<Shinmera>
It will download packages on demand
<Shinmera>
The only reason it downloads updates of installed packages when you do a dist update is because it's convenient.
<aeth>
It is in a broken state. Warning (initialization): An error occurred while loading ‘/home/michael/.emacs’: File is missing: Cannot open load file, No such file or directory, slime-autoloads
<aeth>
And M-x slime no longer works
<Shinmera>
Open the repl not in slime, quickload the slime helper.
<Shinmera>
Slime breaking does not mean quicklisp is broken.
<aeth>
okay, you're right, it's just the slime helper that broke
<housel>
top
<housel>
sorry, wrong window
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