<jcowan>
(In addition, jus soli means that everyone born in the U.S. is a citizen, with the embarrassing exception of American Samoa.)
<oni-on-ion>
hawaii ?
<jcowan>
Hawaii is a state, so its residents are citizens. The inhabitants of other non-states like Puerto Rico are citizens as well.
<jcowan>
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
<oni-on-ion>
i ask hawaii because samoa
<jcowan>
See, there was a coup in Hawai'i instituted by some Americans living there who overthrew the monarchy and applied for admission to the U.S. as a territory. It took decades to become a state, but it finally did.
<oni-on-ion>
ah oops sorry for contributing to offtopic, Shinmera . jcowan you are responding to something that was disapproved of and recommended to be #lispcafe
<jcowan>
Sorry, I didn't notice that.
<oni-on-ion>
they do talk about this stuff in there a lot, im sure you would like it =)
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<oni-on-ion>
whoa. should there be a revised version available for CLHS lookup ? as opposed to downloading the lispworks website version for slime
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<usney>
hi guys
<usney>
Why should I program in lisp?
<usney>
I am new to it
<usney>
is it easy to learn?
<no-defun-allowed>
It's less annoying to learn, from my experience.
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<usney>
cool even easier to learn than python? no-defun-allowed
<White_Flame>
lisp is very regular. python is very pragmatic
<no-defun-allowed>
Yes, there's less syntax and it's more interactive.
<White_Flame>
and yeah, python's repl sucks :-P
<White_Flame>
so many things you can't do in it
<usney>
is lisp scriptable or can I only run it if it is compiled?
<White_Flame>
you can create and run .lisp scripts, but the common case is running lisp code from inside a running lisp
<White_Flame>
given its heritage as an OS
<White_Flame>
you can also of course deploy executables
<no-defun-allowed>
Many implementations compile code, but it is still done dynamically.
<White_Flame>
usney: what languages do you already know?
<usney>
I see
<usney>
I just know a little python
<usney>
also a little bash scripting but that is not a programming language
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<White_Flame>
minion: tell usney about pcl
<minion>
usney: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<White_Flame>
a commonly recommended learning resource, especially if you have some programming under your belt
<White_Flame>
also, #clschool is good for specific newbie questions, as discussions here will often get into "you already need to know lisp to understand the answer" territory ;)
<usney>
how is lisp an os? is that guix os?
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<White_Flame>
lisp was teh OS of lisp machines in the 70s/80s
<usney>
oh okay I will go to that channel
<usney>
is this the same lisp that rms uses?
<White_Flame>
I don't know what he uses. Emacs has elisp running in it, there's Guile scheme under the GNU project, etc
<beach>
I seriously doubt that rms is using Common Lisp.
<White_Flame>
this channel, and typically the term "Lisp" itself, refers to "Common Lisp", which is a specifciation of the language
<White_Flame>
scheme, elisp, autolisp, picolisp, etc are all separate langauges that aren't CL
<White_Flame>
because it's so easy to create a lisp from scratch, basically
<usney>
oh okay thank you so much for asking my basic questions
<White_Flame>
np
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<oni-on-ion>
its like gardening
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<sabrac>
should (ccl:lookup-hostname "localhost") return something other than nil?
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<phoe>
that should return 127.0.0.1
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<Posterdati>
hi
<Josh_2>
H
<Josh_2>
hi*
<Posterdati>
is anyone playing in google kick start?
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<sabrac>
phoe: that is what I thought. Obviously I am doing something wrong
<phoe>
sabrac: or it's a CCL bug
<phoe>
...I cannot reproduce it though
<phoe>
? (format t "~X" (ccl:lookup-hostname "localhost"))
<phoe>
7F000001
<phoe>
that's a 127.0.0.1 that I see there
<sabrac>
As usual something wrong on my side
<phoe>
that's on 1.12-dev.5 though
<MichaelRaskin>
What is in /etc/hosts ?
<sabrac>
If I run ccl from a terminal, it does the right thing. If I run if from inside emacs, I get nil. Will restart emacs and see if it still is weird, then will look at my emacs config
<sabrac>
Now it works running from a repl in emacs. So it has just decided to spend today laughing at me
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<z147>
I'm interested in medical expert systems and their implementation via CL. I also need to read up on the current state of the field. So far, I have Norvig on my reading list, and am going to review the medical initiatives lambdanative have going. I'd appreciate some pointers/ keywords as far as books, must-read articles etc for the field.
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<z147>
OPS5 is also on the list
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<beach>
z147: There is also "The Handbook of Artificial Intelligence", but the version I have is old, and I don't know whether there is a new edition of it.
<z147>
beach, the cambridge one?
<beach>
This one is from Stanford, apparently.
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<z147>
they sure like the name
<z147>
i'll look into it, thanks
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<beach>
Chapter VIII in Volume II in this edition.
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<beach>
I am not even sure they do AI that way anymore.
<z147>
oh, screw "AI" they most certainly are not doing "AI" like that anymore because it's all statistics with no solution to edge cases in sight
<beach>
Though I guess for medical systems, they probably would not use neural nets. They need to have the system explain its decisions.
<z147>
but the rule systems do work, and i'm going to do those
<z147>
beach, yeah, it actually has to make sense
<z147>
not a popular approach at the moment
<z147>
they're using neural for sorting, as it should be
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<z147>
for example x-ray flagging for possible diagnosis, etc
<z147>
but rule based is perfect for triage etc
<z147>
and it'll be nice to work on a product that actually works
<White_Flame>
the state of the art for production rules systems has basically moved into "business rules engines" as fas as I can tell
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<z147>
White_Flame, at some point, when the madness settles, there's going to be a medical conference on emergency medicine i'd like to attend to meet a few experts and talk about diagnostics and automating it, but i need to prepare my basics
<White_Flame>
well, if you do want to propose some Real Business, PM me because we've got good tech in that space
<z147>
franz has a list of expert systems that are pretty business oriented
<z147>
White_Flame, that's what i'd like to find out, if the doctors are willing to be pointed out wrong by a system
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<White_Flame>
yeah, that's obviously something that's not a technical issue
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<z147>
but it's going to affect the marketability very strongly
<z147>
so I suppose I'll have to do a machine learning vs rules only comparison due to trends in the market at the moment
<MichaelRaskin>
The problem with machine learning is that it is optimised for comparisons that are easy to do with the available data
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<White_Flame>
machine learning is a statistics reinforcer. that's like the opposite of what you want to handle edge cases
<z147>
exactly, and i'll have to argue my point
<z147>
because a lot of "cited" "cutting-edge" research is machine learning in diagnostics
<z147>
just as MichaelRaskin pointed out, one example would be someone touting their "efficient" triage system trained on past patient data
<z147>
it shows their system could perform "better" diagnosis on the patients in the data.
<MichaelRaskin>
Efficient on average, yes
<z147>
somehow the trial phase where they use it on NEW patients is conveniently ommitted
<MichaelRaskin>
It is often present, actually
<z147>
MichaelRaskin, tips towards must reads appreciated
<_death>
the field you're talking about has a long history, at least going to the 1960s.. you seem to simultaneously have strong opinions while asking for basic information
<MichaelRaskin>
I think there was a case where they «reliably distinguished» two diagnoses which are basically two schools of naming the same thing.
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<z147>
_death, would you happen to have a recommendation as far as information?
<White_Flame>
we looked for good, semi-modern resources some years back, and found practically nothing
<White_Flame>
we basically built our system from first principles, desiring GOFAI as a programming environment
<White_Flame>
as everything else was off in busines modeling land
<z147>
White_Flame, what's the field of application?
<White_Flame>
general purpose software, automation of processes
<MichaelRaskin>
I think A.Colyer has relatively recently wrote a review about a system that learns a neural net, then uses the neural net to learn a rule system (which can then be reviewed by a domain expert).
<White_Flame>
the great thing about proper rule programming is that it completely decouples you from managing a program counter at all. The system simply notices state and reacts to it
<White_Flame>
regardless of how the state got there, and without having to ensure you have calls & hooks enabled in all the right places
<White_Flame>
and which of course also decouples a lot of error handling as well
<_death>
z147: there are many books about the history of expert systems.. one famous system was DENDRAL, writtein in Lisp during the 1960s.. in the late 1980s Bayesian networks caused a revolution in the field, and they are still going strong.. there is research on interpretable machine learning, not just for medicine but for other fields where it is critical to understand why a diagnosis or prognosis was made
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<dmiles>
yeah the GOFAI being the helper system to write prograsms somehow slipped everyones mind
<White_Flame>
yep, as encapsulated in the term "expert system _shell_" that is no longer used
<dmiles>
worse now is we have an inferior version of the field that emerged (the automated programing field) in that people have accepts that things like Agda/Idris is the "newest greatest thing"
<dmiles>
"the automated programing field" oops give them too much credit !
<z147>
White_Flame, so far not much has come up in a quick search for me as far as domain and CL, so i suppose i will review the current practices outside CL and go from there
<dmiles>
the "automated verification" is all _they_ / _them_ do :(
<z147>
interestingly, there are some publications coming up due to COVID where they are pushing for rules-based triage
<MichaelRaskin>
Expert systems need experts to maintain, and the experts can migrate to another software base if needed. Current machine learning is about making sure your data center is the only environment where the learning procedure can be deployed with reasonable efficiency (and that humans are fungible)
<z147>
MichaelRaskin, important point
<z147>
the feverish dream of information sold as a utility
<White_Flame>
yeah, regarding CL, when we were looking at stuff a decade back or so, most of it was Java. Even charles forgy was moving everything to java
<MichaelRaskin>
Re: triage — well, decisions that are life-or-death even when made perfectly are politically easier to push towards being explainable to humans
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<jcowan>
Selling information is an inherently inefficient market anyway
<z147>
White_Flame, that's the impression I get now
<Posterdati>
hi
<Posterdati>
which is the complexity of the sort function?
<z147>
although I presume there is an ongoing migration to the cloud as subscription gathering and customer lock-in
<_death>
continuing on the path of Bayesian networks, recent research by Pearl and his students led to results about what he calls "causality diagrams".. not too long ago he published a book placing this research in a historical context, called "The Book of Why"..
<MichaelRaskin>
Posterdati: n log n in any reasonable case
<White_Flame>
z147: but really, what are you looking for? to build up tech from scratch or to use something existing?
<White_Flame>
and if something existing, what sort of thing?
<Posterdati>
MichaelRaskin: ok, tx
<z147>
White_Flame, my interest sparked about 5 years back when I started observing a movement for check-lists in the medical profession
<z147>
it has met a lot of resistance, but it's there
<dmiles>
I remember the GOFAI sort of happened to overcome a broken version of AI that proceeded it
<dmiles>
i jsut cant remember exaclty what that borken thing was
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<MichaelRaskin>
Perceptrons?
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<z147>
I apologize for my connection, the whole network is overloaded here at the moment
<_death>
"GOFAI" is kind of misnamed.. approaches like "neural networks" (at the time it was quite offensive to call them that, so they had a name like "neuron-like elements") rose at the same time as the rule-based heuristic approaches, in the 1950s..
<White_Flame>
yeah, "symbolic AI" is more correct, though "SAI" hasn't caught on as an acronym
<_death>
today's "deep learning" stuff is basically a rehash of Selfridge's Pandemonium architecture (1959)
<dmiles>
yeah i sorta actualyl think the history went as follows: Perceptrons/Baysian -> SAI/GOFAI -> BaysianRehashed
<dmiles>
well sorry
<z147>
_death, I read the Opus (Hartung) with great interest
<dmiles>
yeah i sorta actualyl think the history went as follows: Perceptrons/Connectionism -> SAI/GOFAI -> Connectionism done much better as Baysian
<z147>
something to think about as far as working with the Java implemented systems
<dmiles>
At some point arround the Genetic Algos of the late 1970s it was seen that we needed better Symbolic systems for the GAs to author
<dmiles>
And better symbolic systems to "manage" the work a GA will need to work towards
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<dmiles>
but this sociental agenda was lost on most peopel as they over specialized
<White_Flame>
yep, command & control is done very well in rule systems
<_death>
there's a good Lisp book called "Building Problem Solvers" that deals with backward/forward chaining, truth-maintenance systems, etc.
<z147>
White_Flame, i'll read up on the command & control benefits, thanks
<White_Flame>
those design lessons were not learned from reading up, but rather fro mdoing
<z147>
_death, I haven't seen that book i'll look into it, thanks
<White_Flame>
the tech is there, but the actual use and programming design of how to architect the rules is what's sorely lacking
<White_Flame>
but then again, nobody's doing actual rule-based programming, except for maybe SOAR, which is tightly bound in a very particular agent-based model
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<dmiles>
I'd liek to see peopel start to program in EventCalc and SitCalc
<dmiles>
EventCalc is where you actually declare the order in which proddedures will happen such as memory intializatio
<z147>
I've found a medical field article that mentions Rule-Based Reasoning but I have to follow up with what they actually mean with that in their implementation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29673601
<dmiles>
vs the SitCalc is how one might declare their CLOS
<z147>
White_Flame, which SOAR, SSI/SSDI Outreach, Access, and Recovery?
<White_Flame>
John Laird's SOAR project, from university of michigan
<White_Flame>
hmm, I wonder if it's just called "Soar" now, a la LISP=>Lisp
<dmiles>
there exists for all streams a notion of a count of charaters "so far"
<White_Flame>
z147: in any case, I need to be afk. If you're serious about building something and want to use CL stuff, PM me
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<White_Flame>
but certainly see wha'ts out there, and there might already be a system directly applicable
<z147>
White_Flame, yes, understood. Like I said, i'm collecting data at the moment
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<MichaelRaskin>
And if you want to do anything with rule-based system, do something with many of the existing prolog-like libraries (or with actual Prolog, or with Datalog, …)
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<z147>
MichaelRaskin, which libraries would be top of the list to review?
<MichaelRaskin>
You don't need anything fancy, just do something to get a feeling, I think a few Lisp books include Prolog-in-100-lines or something like that
<MichaelRaskin>
(or search cliki)
<z147>
will do, thanks MichaelRaskin
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<jcowan>
I was going to say that Prolog is by no means dead. I've found the folks on ##prolog to be quite welcoming.
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<ecraven>
regarding SLIME in Emacs, there used to be default keybindings, but somehow I lost them.. were they removed, or do I just have to explicitly enable them somehow?
<ecraven>
things like `slime-inspect-presentation-at-point' (which now seems to be completely unbound)
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<tcr>
ecraven: Many things have moved into contribs, but that happened like over 10 years ago
<ecraven>
hehe, I just remember that they used to exist..
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<tcr>
ecraven, you probably want to add (setq slime-contribs '(slime-fancy slime-presentations)) into your .emacs
<ecraven>
I have slime-fancy, but not slime-presentations it seems.. thanks
<tcr>
`M-x find-library slime` and then `M-x rgrep slime-inspect-presentation` revealed that ;)
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<ecraven>
hm.. `lisp-show-variable-documentation' is bound to C-c C-v, not `slime-presentation-map' :-/
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<random-nick>
I want to make a binding to a C library, should I manually transcribe the API to CFFI definition forms or should I use something which does it automatically?
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<phoe>
random-nick: depends on the size of the library
<phoe>
how many functions do you need to bind?
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<random-nick>
I'm binding gobject2
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<random-nick>
it has quite a lot of functions, but not as much as something like gtk
<void_pointer>
The one downside is that you have to run it for each processor architecture and sometimes OS you want to target (because the width of an int can change radically between architectures and even OSes on the same architecture)
<void_pointer>
also alignment in structs and whatnot
<aeth>
In particular, borodust seems to have removed most of the things that introduce performance penalties.
<void_pointer>
Also, if you are interfacing POSIX libraries, you have to be prepared for the sizes of things changing from Linux, Mac OSX, the various BSDs, etc.
<void_pointer>
Note that you have to deal with that issue if you just use CFFI directly too
<void_pointer>
c2ffi can be better in some cases here, like extra fields in standard structs (e.g. Mac OSX has an extra field in sockaddr that isn't on Linux)
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<void_pointer>
Basically, depending on how many systems one is targeting, the build matrix for the spec files can get rather large
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<equwal>
void_pointer: That sounds unpleasant. We do have lots of VM technology available and CI, so it should be possible to only manually do the process once.
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<void_pointer>
That certainly does help. With Linux and most BSDs on most platforms, it should be pretty easy with VMs with or without CI. Windows' high backwards compatibility makes it fairly easy since you only need to do it for one version. Mac OSX is maybe the wild card. Oh, and of course, if one is doing smart phones, well, good luck.
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<fe[nl]ix>
cffi-grovel and manually creating bindings have one advantage: you only define what you use
<equwal>
Yeah, I mentioned CI since it helps by automatically doing it when a pull request is made. What would a travis.yaml, GUIX config, or docker file look like to generate these automatically? Do we have an example to start with?
<fe[nl]ix>
you can even have a struct with 20 fields, but if you only need one you can just define that and the groveler will figure out the struct size and field offset
<aeth>
just come up with a cl-unautowrap tree shaker...
<random-nick>
hm, cl-autowrap seems to be having trouble with gobject
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<aeth>
random-nick: Try its fork claw instead, then. Worst case scenario, neither work, but borodust (the fork author) is in this channel. https://github.com/borodust/claw
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<aeth>
random-nick: and then there's the option of manually using cffi-grovel that fe[nl]ix said
<aeth>
there might be a few other options, too
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<borodust>
claw has no docs unfortunately
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<borodust>
i can create a base wrapper for ya though
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<phoe>
the author is the living documentation™
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<aeth>
phoe: exactly
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<aeth>
there's a real time query-based documentation system
<borodust>
phoe: it will be there, i just need to finish this sm0l feature..
<borodust>
c++ support ;₽
<void_pointer>
though that is brittle, but this is the nature of many projects in their early states
<void_pointer>
unless one is of the literate programming persuasion, design first and code second, or really into making documentation as one goes; that is how it is (and sadly, some projects never get their documentation)
<phoe>
borodust: :D
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<aeth>
void_pointer: I have a literate programming library but it's entirely undocumented at the moment ;-)
<void_pointer>
aeth: I think I saw it at some point
<aeth>
void_pointer: It's a joke. If it's undocumented and documentation comes first, then it's empty, i.e. not there.
<void_pointer>
aeth: just checked, not the author of the two I was thinking of
<void_pointer>
aeth: ah
<aeth>
It looks something like NIL
<void_pointer>
aeth: with literate programming, one does have to start somewhere to bootstrap, though that is where external documentation and comment documentation come in
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