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<Posterdati>
hi! Is there anyone interested in provide 3 virtual machines to test gsll/antik, cffi and iolib under NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD? Thanks for help!
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<no-defun-allowed>
I hate to be rude, but what prevents you from setting up virtual machines?
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<Odin->
It seems to me like it's kinda difficult to pull apart Lisp(y) notions of interfaces and the evolution of Emacs.
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<makomo>
hello
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<paule32>
hello
<paule32>
why i am banned from cl-school ?
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<paule32>
i have a list: '(the ('men '(is '(big))))
<jackdaniel>
[just a guess based on historical observations] probably because you've been asking for advice and not following it (hence waisting other people time)
<paule32>
how can i make a question with "how" (how was the men) -> (is big) ?
<Shinmera>
better question: why is he not banned from here, too?
<thodg>
paule32: you should read the CLHS about list functions
* jackdaniel
stares at Shinmera
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<Shinmera>
jackdaniel: So you want me to do the dirty work, eh
* jackdaniel
pretends he knows nothing about this
<jackdaniel>
eh, nick "Pilate" is already in use
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<schweers>
Is there a recommended way to load a text file as a string at compile-time or load-time? I want to load a SQL file, which resides in the source tree, into the lisp image. I’m pretty sure I once did something similar, but it wasn’t exactly pretty and I don’t remember the details.
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<phoe>
schweers: load-time? that's defparameter over alexandria:read-file-into-string
<_death>
consider doing it at runtime and caching the result
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<jackdaniel>
I'd like to do it like (copy-file #P"/foo/bar.sql" #P"virtual:my-app;resources;file.sql")
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<_death>
you could always "fill the cache" and dump an image
<phoe>
virtual Lisp filesystems integrated into the pathname system... aaaah
<pjb>
or when you generate the saved lisp image!
<pjb>
(this can be a different time than compile or load which would be performed by quicklisp).
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<pjb>
jackdaniel: for this, you want a virtual file system in the lisp image. I started to implement such a thing (without gray stream, which means re-implementing the whole chapters 19 and 20… You could do it with gray stream this week-end… https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/future/vfs
<jackdaniel>
pjb: I've seen your repository some time ago, it was very informative (thank you)
<pjb>
Actually, you would still need to implement most of those chapters, if you want to be able to use similar operations to deal with those virtual pathnames and virtual files…
<pjb>
This is another part of CL that would need a good HOOK.
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<ebrasca>
Can you load some lybrary as some list/tree?
<phoe>
what do you mean, as some list/tree?
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<schweers>
Okay, so there is not /one/ recommended way to do it ;)
<schweers>
Thanks for the answers, I’ll check which suits my needs best.
<schweers>
asdf’s :static-file has nothing to do with this, right?
<Shinmera>
right.
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<ebrasca>
phoe: Load some lybrary as list to be able to search duplicated code.
<jackdaniel>
sort-of naive code walking?
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<ebrasca>
jackdaniel: I think yes
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* ebrasca
is lost in the infinite sea , he wonder what to do.
<phoe>
ebrasca: I think it is not doable with ASDF. You'd need to write your own tool for that.
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<pjb>
Well, you can define methods on asdf operations to be able to read the source without loading it.
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<pjb>
You would want to do that to benefit from the load-in-order and loading of dependencies provided by asdf.
<pjb>
But note also that reading sources in lisp may requires some loading and/or some compiling!
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<pjb>
So it's easier to just load it.
<pjb>
ebrasca: see for example how documentation extractors do it.
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<pjb>
If you wanted to read lisp sources without loading them you would have to 1- implement your own reader (or use com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader). 2- implement the reading of things that are not lisp objects, such as #+/#- conditionals or #. expressions.
<pjb>
ebrasca: For example, you could want to detect that some library contains code that is compiled and loaded on some specific systems on some specific platform, that is duplicate with some other library on the same system and platform, but not on a different system or platform.
<pjb>
Or you can also just implement some naive tool that will break on special cases, but that will work on 80% of the lisp sources around.
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<pjb>
In the later case, you don't care about the reading of source files in a library in any specific oder. Just take the source files and read them, and fold when an error occurs.
<pjb>
ebrasca: you could want at minima, to interpret the defpackage and in-package forms, since this will be needed to read qualified symbols and symbols in the right package, but even that, in a naive tool, you could just not do it. (just read everything in your own package).
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<ebrasca>
pjb: My idea is to read some lybraries and reduce duplication.
<pjb>
an alternative would be to indeed compile and load the libraries, but use ibcl to keep track of the sources, that you can then process once they are loaded.
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<montxero>
Most people who get infected with any (because there are multiple different strains in the familiy) corona virus will survive it.
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<edgar-rft>
how bad
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<montxero>
lol, nobody has survived life yet... don't give up yet
<White_Flame>
is it too late for me to release Ebolisp?
<phoe>
the file extension will be EBOLisp Applicaton = *.ebola
<montxero>
hahahahahahaha
<montxero>
apparently there is a cure for that: if you are British or American
<montxero>
But damn... think of all the devices that will be quarantined..
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<jackdaniel>
jokes which drag for too long shall go to lispcafe (and yes, I'm aware I've started it)
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<White_Flame>
but you're not even in there!
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<jackdaniel>
shh
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<pjb>
ebrasca: The Community Lisp = TCL ;-)
<pjb>
White_Flame: I have a library named listerine.
<pjb>
(it mixes Java and Lisp, so the name is justified ;-)
<montxero>
lol
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<montxero>
I am looking for an application written in common lisp that I can contribute to. I am not a programming rock star or anything like it. I don't trust myself with macros, (although I have written programs which generate programs in sagemath+python). Any advice for a noob?
<montxero>
On the sagemath+python programs, I wish I could do those in commonlisp but alas time is
<montxero>
time is a cruel b***h
<Xach>
montxero: i have a program that scrapes github for common lisp repos. i wrote it a long time ago and it screws up on unicode characters. do you have any interest in fixing it so it works properly and uses utf-8?
<beach>
montxero: Do you want an existing application, or something new. For new things, I recommend you look at metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
<montxero>
Xach, I would love to take a look! I might be a bit slow at first, because of current commitments, but I will definately take a look at it!
<montxero>
ebrasca: I am a noob, I don't think I can do any os type hacking
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<Xach>
montxero: i don't think it's too bad, it's mostly just reading stuff and writing stuff.
<gabc>
montxero: I had some fun hacking on lem :)
<montxero>
Xach: The repo looks small enough for me to grok, I will be happy to start with it
<montxero>
gabc: Great! I've heard of it. I don't think I'll be much use there for now.
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<montxero>
Now I have 3 things to do... One of them is working on utf-8 handling in ghprojects. Anymore and something must give.
<montxero>
Say, does anyone here have any idea on Positive observers?
<gabc>
You'll see what you can do, don't pressure yourself too much either :)
<Xach>
montxero: what is Positive observers?
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<montxero>
Observers designed for positive systems. It is a niche field in control theory.
<montxero>
Wait a sec, I'll explain
<montxero>
A positive system is a dynamical system with the distinct property that its state
<montxero>
variables are always nonnegative.
<montxero>
A simple example of a positive system is the human endocrine system. At every
<montxero>
point in time, the quantity of any given hormone in a person is always nonnegative.
<montxero>
Indeed it is absurd to consider the possibility of a negative quantity of insulin in
<montxero>
the body.
<White_Flame>
I wouldn't think that data observers in such a system would necessarily care about the values being constrained to being positive. The mechanics of observation should be exactly the same
<ebrasca>
I think you can make sence of negative quantity.
<montxero>
White_Flame: Actually, it matters a lot
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<Bike>
unfortunately i'm not doing a lot of control theory at my day job
<Bike>
i also don't immediately understand what makes positive systems particularly special, since if you estimate a kidney has a liter of cortisone in it that will probably also cause some catastrophic weirdness
<White_Flame>
or if the expectation is -0.00001 is it really catastrophic?
<White_Flame>
s/expectation/estimation/
<montxero>
Bike: When we know a system is positive, we can make certain acertaions about it. E.g, it's state's will never be negative. A lot of biological, chemical, engineering, economic systems have this property
<montxero>
Some key principles and theorems from control theory, do not apply to positive systems
<Bike>
Sure, but you can also assume there's not a liter of anything in something the size of a human kidney.
<montxero>
they just break down
<Bike>
Like, why positive specifically? Why not just specify a range or something?
<montxero>
Things like the separation principle do not hold
<montxero>
Bike: because we are dealing with a broad class of systems.. we want general solutions that can be applied to a wide class of systems
<montxero>
you do not want to create an automatic flight control system that will work on only boeings, you make the theories and methodologies that applies to flight systems which fit certain criteria
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<montxero>
then boeing can specialise it for their planes as can everyone else
<Bike>
i don't get why "can't be less than zero" is more important than "can't be less than this particular number", but it's not my field i guess
<montxero>
Because, nonnegative, has some deep deep mathemaical implications
<montxero>
to make a simple example with linear systems
<montxero>
Linear systems defined on R^n are just linear
<_death>
you can always offset, can you not?
<montxero>
but if we restrict the systems to be nonnegative, we define the system on a cone
<montxero>
once we bring in that cone... things start to get a bit tricky
<montxero>
_death: if we did, our treatment will not be complet, nor will it be correct
<montxero>
that is a programmers approach... no offence, it will not work in control theory
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<_death>
montxero: I mean with Bike's remark in mind..
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<edgar-rft>
let's all be positively depressed
<montxero>
Positive specifically, because that is how thoes phenomena present... processes involving chemical reactions, population, etc
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<montxero>
lol edgar-rft nay... we must stay positive
<_death>
I'm not sure what the question is, though.. you asked if anyone has an idea about something, which is not a technical question (and not related to Lisp...)
<jackdaniel>
I'm wondering, where does it lead to
<jackdaniel>
basically what _death said
<montxero>
jackdaniel: I asked on the off chance someone here has some experience on the subject. No offence meant, it wold've been nice
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<montxero>
On why an offset is not good enough, it is arbitrary. For something like the amount of glucose present in a persons blood, setting some arbitrary upper and lower limit may exclude some viable (if improbable values)...
<montxero>
Also, if an observer for a positive system ever generates a nonnegative estimate, then such ``observer" is not an observer for the system in question period.
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<_death>
I think you misunderstand.. for example you can use the Kelvin scale for a temperature to get nonnegative values, or you can offset in a Celsius scale..
<jackdaniel>
either way, this seems to be offtopic on this channel
<ebrasca>
What about 0 < x <=100 % of your body?
<jackdaniel>
there is a designated channel for all offtopic discussions so let's focus on common lisp instead
<montxero>
_death: We can't play the same trick with hormones or chemical concentrations. It must be airtight and analytical
<montxero>
jackdaniel: fair enough... This ends my positive observer and control theory talk
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<thodg>
montxero: have a look at rails on lisp
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<thodg>
better than lor and its hard to put lisp on rails actually
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<thodg>
lisp is not a locomotive nor a wagon it seems
<thodg>
but it's much faster than ruby for sure
<thodg>
even load times
<thodg>
and my whole db fits in memory
<thodg>
very fast web development
<thodg>
i recently ported ruby objects to common lisp
<thodg>
i wonder if activerecord and such should be ported using ruby-objects
<thodg>
i have (class < super (private) (def my-method (args) ...)) syntax
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<pjb>
_death: ok, but assume a body is at temperature t0 K. Assume you give it heat so that its temperature is now t1 K. Now, if the heat you gave it was Δt/C such as Δt+t0=t1 and Δt>t1 (all in K). Couldn't you say that its initial temperature t0 was negative?
<pjb>
_death: it's like negative resistors. It's not possible in theory, but in practice, you can build electronic circuits that behave as if they were negative resistors.
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<pjb>
(of course, that body, and those electronic circuits, are not purely passive, to demonstrate those virtual negative grandeurs).
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<pjb>
But negative energy is also a thing. Dark matter, dark energy, anti-particules, etc…
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<Bike>
i don't understand how you skipped both the part of the conversation leading to what death said, and the part afterward where it was decided to stop talking about it since it's off topic
<pjb>
Bike: I disagree it's off topic. It's a valid programming question. For example, related to array indexing, 0-based in lisp.
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<aeth>
With a temperature type, you have a (actually several) system that gets you an objective 0 that you can't go below. Counting will also give you this, e.g. 0 marbles. Any arbitrary offset won't. This is absolutely a CL question of restricting the CL type imo.
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<pjb>
aeth: again, with resistance it's the same. Negative resistance is a physical impossibility (with passive components).
<pjb>
that doesn't prevent us to design active circuits that demonstrate negative resistance. You can also design active bodies that will demonstrate negative absolute temperature.
<aeth>
pjb: That's exactly the opposite of the issue, which is the advantages of staying nonnegative in programming afaik.
<aeth>
All that matters is that there is an objective 0 in some scale that cannot be gone below. Temperature has at least 2-3 of those scales, even though of course you can make your own or use F/C
<pjb>
which are none, basically, when you consider continuous (linear) systems.
<pjb>
Take universal times. It's specified so that dates before 1900/01/01 00:00:00 GMT are not valid. But already, note that implementations allow negative universal times, to support 1900/01/01 00:00:00 GMT-12 to GMT-1. And note that the Gregorian calendar, while not universally adopted, was still already available in some places before that date, so negative universal time should have been perfectly valid, at least back to the 150
<pjb>
Ie. my argument is that disallowing negative values, most of the time, is just one more falacy believed by (bad) programmers.
<aeth>
This isn't using R (imagine that's fancy R), this is using some other number system, which CL can do e.g. (integer 0 *) and I think a different syntax for floats
<aeth>
Maybe not always efficiently because of all of the checks inserted...
<aeth>
Disallowing negative values is just the most used subset of CL's numeric type features other than getting a fixed integer size for algorithmic or interperability purposes.
<aeth>
Sure, you could do (integer 4 37) but that's less useful and less optimized so if you can change your scale to be (integer 0 64) you will produce better code (in optimizing implementations like SBCL)
<pjb>
take for example, sqrt. You could say (assert (typep (sqrt x) '(real 0)))
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<pjb>
You'd be wrong. (sqrt -1), (sqrt #c(1 1)), etc.
<aeth>
Nonnegative scale lets the compiler at least potentially infer certain things without having to continually check. (* x y) remains nonnegative.
<semz>
that has more to do with expanding the definition of a function to other domains than fallacies though
<pjb>
semz: yes, basic falacy.
<aeth>
pjb: I'm 90% sure the main reason you want nonnegative is so (* x y), (+ x y), (/ x y), etc. stay in the type. Only (- x y) and a few others need type checking then
<pjb>
google for "Falsehoods programmers believe"…
<aeth>
And it's a good question if SbCL is smart enough to infer nonnegative float/etc. arithmetic
<pjb>
semz: you believe a name is [A-Z][a-z]+ and you're wrong. The domain of the names is way more than that. Falacy!
<semz>
I'm not talking about names, I'm talking about square roots.
<pjb>
aeth: you believe a domain is [0..n[ and you're wrong. The domain is way more than that. Falacy!
<pjb>
semz: I'm talking about everything.
<aeth>
pjb: If we restrict our type to nonnegative then even (sqrt x) stays in our type!
<aeth>
Assuming float
<pjb>
aeth: yes, and then you write brittle software that don't apply to most of your customers.
<aeth>
Storing the temperature in K so SBCL can potentially always keep the value as valid without type checks except when subtraction is used is brittle software? It's actually a brilliant efficiency hack assuming the final conversion cost is cheaper!
<semz>
Writing code that handles complex square roots (or more precisely, the *principal* square roots) when complex inputs make absolutely no sense in context isn't more robust, it's idiotic.
<semz>
Checking that the input type is appropriate, yeah sure.
<aeth>
Of course, temperature is a bit of a bad example because you're only really going to be multiplying when converting afaik.
<semz>
But not the output wth
<pjb>
semz: until you take the module and use it in an Ariane 5…
<pjb>
then kaboom!
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<aeth>
pjb: The point was using unit systems that are nonnegative when the domain permits the assumption, as in, in at least some units, you cannot go below 0, which temperature does have
<pjb>
have not.
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<aeth>
This requires domains that have an absolute zero, which exist
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<pjb>
You cannot assume any body is passive when the universe has quantum entanglement.
<pjb>
Therefore the absolute 0 is a falacy.
<pjb>
Because it assumes purely passive bodies.
<aeth>
If I say (integer 0 *) for customer-count, I am making software more reliable because I shouldn't have any negative customers. Sure, I can shift the scale so I do, but... why??? There is a natural 0.
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<pjb>
I just demonstrated that there is no natural absolute 0.
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<aeth>
If it is asymptotic then it doesn't really matter for our purposes. As long as you can't go below it. You have natural absolute zeros all of the time, when counting. Bees in my yard, for example.
<semz>
Ariane 5 is not an example of this, the speed readings made sense in context (as, well, speed).
<aeth>
Anyway, "Can you restrict yourself to nonnegative usefully?" in this channel is "Yes." Not "Actually, there's always negatives." which is incorrect in counting problems.
<aeth>
And, sure, bees or whatever are integers, but molecules are still nonnegative and purely a counting problem, but are best stored as floats.
<pjb>
typed on a computer engineered with the notion that positive electricity flows from + to -, when actually negative electrons move from - to +, but in PNP transistors, it's actually holes that "move", etc…
<aeth>
It looks like for specific float types, you need to use a compound type, so e.g. (typep 42.0f0 '(and single-float (float 0 *))) while for integers you can just use (typep 42 '(integer 0 *)) although of course for integers you might want to (arbitrarily) upper bound it too, for efficiency.
<aeth>
And I've been playing around with variations of (defun foo (x y) (declare (type (and single-float (float 0 *)) x y)) (the (and single-float (float 0 *)) (* x y))) ; including the sqrt variation on just x
<aeth>
It looks like my version of SBCL will, as expected, not typecheck via the THE on most of those, but will typecheck on subtraction, as expected. It looks like it does typecheck, at least on my old version, for (expt x y) though. It shouldn't.
<aeth>
The check goes away when I (optimize (speed 3)) so that's a bit weird.
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<Bike>
turns out cl-llvm loads fine if you put in guicho's pull request. got some bitcode output. too bad the repo isn't maintained enough for the short change, i guess.
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<Xach>
Bike: is that sellout's repo?
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<Bike>
yeah.
<Bike>
it was removed from quicklisp, right?
<Bike>
(because it does not load)
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<Xach>
right
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<Bike>
the reason it doesn't load is that it refers to an enum that was removed after llvm 3.4, and while there's something to check the version it doesn't treat versions past 3 correctly
<Bike>
kind of a dumb reason, but that's how these things go i guess. it works for me with llvm9
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<Xach>
congratulations!! you are new maintainer!!
<Bike>
oh shit
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<Bike>
probably the JIT stuff doesn't work, though. LLVM's totally rewritten that like five times by now
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<fouric>
is there a way to get slime-edit-definition to ignore DECLAIM forms for functions? i'm trying to add type annotations for my code, but every time i do, it makes jumping around the source much more painful because M-. shows the declaim for the defun
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<White_Flame>
fouric: that, and opening up references from that particular slime window opens up new panes instead of using the one that M-. was pressed in, which really bugs me, too
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