<iAmDecim>
or rather call the namespace/function. noted. Going to go ahead and just do a single file like PCL wanted me to for now but it's making sense. I don't think it will be THAT hard to come from clojure to CL. It definitely feels a better at first glance
<pjb>
and then you won't have to type again (in-package :root) in the repl, you'll get the side effect from the file.
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<loke>
The same people often promote the use of refcounting as an alternative. Which is quite hillarious given how slow refcounting is.
<beach>
Indeed.
<beach>
I talk about this issue in some of my talks to industry.
<no-defun-allowed>
(It's the predecessor to the borrow checker in R*st in a way.)
<loke>
no-defun-allowed: Yes, and stuff rust uses refcounting in some cases.
<no-defun-allowed>
Yes, there are few reasons to avoid GC nonetheless. You probably should listen to loke and beach.
<loke>
the BC can manage to do away with the refcounting sometimes, which is good I geuss. But why not just use a GC so you don't have to wrorry?
<beach>
I totally agree. Automatic memory management makes modularity posssible.
<beach>
Or as Paul Wilson puts it: "liveness is a global property".
<no-defun-allowed>
nitrix: Please reconsider if you need to avoid garbage collection. If you absolutely do, then consider Linear Lisp. If you're not certain, try to write it in Common Lisp and test if the garbage collector is going to be an issue.
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<no-defun-allowed>
I had read Appel's "Garbage Collection can be faster than Stack Allocation" long ago. We had a laugh at the thought of using twelve times the size of the live set to make up the minimal difference between GC and stack allocation, but it is not so unreasonable in my opinion now.
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<beach>
Now, nitrix didn't say that it is a good idea not to have a garbage collector.
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<loke>
no-defun-allowed: And then you consider heap allocation, where GC-based systems are always going to be faster at
<no-defun-allowed>
If one writes in a mostly functional style, it is estimated about 90% to 95% of the data will be dead each nursery collection. That is not too far off 11/12 bytes being "wasted".
<no-defun-allowed>
True.
<loke>
(a amlloc() in a compacting heap GC system is only a single instruction)
<no-defun-allowed>
Definitely.
<no-defun-allowed>
But even when one could stack allocate, allocating in a nursery has very similar performance.
<minion>
buffergn0me, memo from pjb: you are perfectly right. To clarify your code, use: https://termbin.com/6ueu
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<buffergn0me>
Obviously there are restrictions on how you write the code
<buffergn0me>
Same with Pre-Scheme
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<beach>
With manual memory management, one restriction is that you can't write (f (g x)) anymore. You have to write something like (let* ((y (g x)) (z (f y))) (free y) z).
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<buffergn0me>
ThinLisp tried to do things like that automatically in the easy cases, had memory regions for explicitly declaring object lifetimes, and would issue warnings about consing that would leak memory
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<nitrix>
loke, I'm not proposing refcouting. I'm actually researching regions. More like Carp, but without that linear feel with Rust borrow crap.
<nitrix>
loke, I'm interested by pass-by-copy semantics and to let the compiler optimize for a pointer for cases where that'd be expensive and can be provably be done safely.
<nitrix>
There's got to be a Lisp out there that has done this.
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* nitrix
reading scrollback.
<pjb>
It should be noted that along with manual memory management, often comes manual error handling. So you would have to write actually: (let ((error nil)) (let ((y (g x (lambda (new-error) (setf error new-error))))) (if error (report-error error) (let ((z (f y (lambda (new-error) (setf error new-error))))) (if error (progn (free y) (report-error error) (progn (free y) z)))))))
<beach>
nitrix: That would not be a Common Lisp, and this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
<beach>
pjb: Heh.
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<drainful>
Carp is interesting; it's 2 basically languages that share similar syntax, which makes it seems more like a lisp-scriptable compiler than a lisp. The non-dynamic portion is not very lisp-like all things considered.
<drainful>
I had the idea to implement a Carp-like language with common lisp acting as the lisp half, which I think would be pretty great, but I didn't get very far.
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<nitrix>
no-defun-allowed, I know people assume that a question like this implies I'm worried about performance due the GC or something like that, but I'm not. I use plenty of languages that are garbage collected and I don't give a crap. I am, though, researching something else right now, which happens to have been done (Linear Lisp proves it), and the interest is because being able to remove the GC implies you've also solved some other tricky problems
<nitrix>
with sharing semantics.
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<nitrix>
I know Common Lisp loves its memory sharing and this channel is full of CL worshippers so my only question, as phrased originally, are pointers to resources that would help me.
<nitrix>
no-defun-allowed, Also thank you :)
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<beach>
nitrix: It is not that this channel is "full of CL worshippers", but that this channel is specifically dedicated to Common Lisp.
<beach>
And that is fortunate, because otherwise we would get into endless arguments about whether this or that language is "a Lisp".
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<loke>
beach: Yeah. That's such a fun discussion :-)
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<beach>
loke: Indeed. By the way, are you going to ELS this year?
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<no-defun-allowed>
drainful: admittedly, I like linear logic more than the Carp system, partly because the former appears to work better with dynamic types, though duplicating fixnums and other small datum seems silly.
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<no-defun-allowed>
But we wonder if it can handle something like (f (if C (use X) (don't use X)) (if C (don't use X) (use X))) where X is used exactly once, regardless of C, but it is a little tricky to tell.
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<no-defun-allowed>
As for regions...I think Poly/ML uses those in place of garbage collection?
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<drainful>
no-defun-allowed: I think rust is getting gradually smarter with issues like that, though I haven't checked in on rust in months.
<no-defun-allowed>
No, not Poly.
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<loke>
beach: Doesn't seem like it :-(
<loke>
when is it again?
<no-defun-allowed>
MLKit is is.
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<no-defun-allowed>
drainful: Maybe. I think it also uses a large set of rules for rewriting tricky problems like that into simpler ones though.
<drainful>
Another issue is that in lisp I think providing good error messages for linear logic would be hellish with macros and all. Ideally you would have some way to extend macros to rewrite error messages or something.
<ebrasca>
loke: ELS is every year.
<loke>
ebrasca: Hah :-)
<no-defun-allowed>
I would prefer if the program was patched automatically to insert an appropriate duplicate or kill form, so ideally error messages wouldn't be needed.
<drainful>
Interesting
<ck_>
loke: els is scheduled for april 27th and 28th
<no-defun-allowed>
It seems very possible to automagically patch linear programs like that.
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<loke>
ck_: it won't be cancelled like all other events these days?
<ck_>
loke: :) right now, els is still scheducled for april 27th and 28th.
<no-defun-allowed>
Anyways, eeeer Common Lisp? Yes, I wrote a linearity checker in that. I had hoped I could make a linear->CL translator, but we need to avoid the heap as much as possible and that would require some odd representations.
<drainful>
no-defun-allowed: I never considered automatically patching linear programs, looking at Rust and ATS had me in a different mindset. Are there any examples or reading material regarding that technique?
<trittweiler>
loke: events with more than 1000 participants are prohibited from taking place in Switzerland as a measure against the coronavirus outbreak. I doubt ELS will accrue that many participants :)
<loke>
trittweiler: I never considered rules against meetings, but rather that some travellers may not want to travel.
<loke>
Also, for some reason some countries have designated Singapore as high risk.
<jackdaniel>
if I were looking unconspiciously at the map and there were a single red dot on it, I'd become alert immedietely ;-)
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<loke>
Hah, well, singapore is indeed just a red dot :-)
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<flip214>
"Get your virus while it's still fresh"
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<Shinmera>
loke: I expect attendance won't be an all-time high this year, both because of that, but also because Zürich is expensive.
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<Shinmera>
But no, ELS won't be cancelled unless Didier or I get sick, I suppose.
<Shinmera>
Or the venue closes down.
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<no-defun-allowed>
drainful: Nope, I came up with it because I don't particularly like the stereotypically whiny kind of compilers. If they know what the problem is, they frequently can propose a solution, and when they can, they can't rewrite the source material to fix it and go on.
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<no-defun-allowed>
If a batch compiler could fix some issues automatically and update the source with those fixes like that, I think it would be much less painful.
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<drainful>
That's a good idea. Maybe you could throw in some warning for it when you have (optimize (speed 3)) or something. The remaining impossible to solve casesn should be relatively few.
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<no-defun-allowed>
I do need to emphasise "frequently" though, as some problems are very hard to solve but easy to verify; but when it's something like "you wrote %d in the format string but should have used %llu", come on...
<trittweiler>
how do you know what the intention was?
<drainful>
You could write a machine-learning powered "Did you mean this?" engine
<drainful>
terrible idea, but you could
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<no-defun-allowed>
Typically whatever doesn't produce an error; some C compilers can "type check" printf arguments against the string, so printf("%f", 2) would be an error.
<trittweiler>
IDEs do offer ways to quickly fix such things after input from the user. Some things, mostly stylistic things with a clear guarantee of preserving semantics, can also be applied automatically by tooling. See `clang-tidy -fixit` etc.
<no-defun-allowed>
The intention was either that the argument should have been a float, or that the format string should have been "%d", but since it is a constant, the latter is more likely.
<no-defun-allowed>
Or put in other terms, gimme DWIM
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<drainful>
As long as its explicit when these assumptions are made. A lot of people would prefer that on the IDE level I think, which is often done. If it just does what it thinks you mean every time, spitting a warning for ambiguous code into the log without editing your source code, then the code becomes much harder to
<drainful>
read
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<thodg>
I want to structure game programming with audio and opengl rendering in C/rtbuf and higher level constructs through a binary I/O protocol giving Common Lisp and other garbage collected programming languages real time abilities
<thodg>
this would give us some slack regarding C++ domination
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<jackdaniel>
jmercouris: are the libraries c++ you've complained about all web renderers?
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<jayspeer>
sorry if this was answered previously - why is #lisp moving from freenode to quakenet? I'm out of the loop
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<jackdaniel>
jayspeer: nobody is moving
<jackdaniel>
phoe was joking in reference to a recent spambot incident
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<jayspeer>
jackdaniel: oh, thanks. I got really confused for a few minutes
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<jackdaniel>
sure; I suppose I'm to be blamed for joking that freenode has been removed :)
<jayspeer>
a little of humor is always welcome :)
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<aeth>
What if #lisp moved to common-lispnet, though? :p
<jackdaniel>
I suppose some people would be on both and some would spread across two places
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<dlowe>
bridgebots... bridgebots everywhere.
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<rpg>
Is there any interest in adding a PARTITION function (like the one in ARNESI) to ALEXANDRIA?
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<Posterdati>
hi
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<Posterdati>
is there anyone interested in provide 3 virtual machines to test gsll/antik, cffi and iolib under NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD?
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<sjl>
rpg: I think one reason alexandria doesn't add much any more is that a lot of people (:use :alexandria), which means that if they add a new exported symbol it would break people's code if they've already got a PARTITION symbol in their package.
<sjl>
(which is why :use'ing a package you don't control is a bad idea, but here we are)
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<jackdaniel>
maybe alexandria should create a new package, i.e alexandria+, and clearly state in documentation, that list of exported symbols in this package may be extended (so that it is not a good idea to USE it)
<rpg>
sjl: Yes, I saw something to that effect on the ALEXANDRIA web site. I see the point, but it also means that the idea of Alexandria being the go-to utility library can't work because ... now we will need an ALEXANDRIA2 library... Actually, I wonder if one could make an ALEXANDRIA2 *package* and have programmers just choose whether or not to use them both or just ALEXANDRIA. Inelegant, but less inelegant than having to spawn a second utilities library.
<jackdaniel>
n.b, alexandria would /use/ alexandria+ (ha ha)
<rpg>
jackdaniel: I think we were both typing the same idea simultaneously!
<jackdaniel>
:)
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<jackdaniel>
n.b, as ASDF maintainer I thought you'd propose uiop as the utlity library "to rule them all"
<sjl>
Yes, creating a separate alexandria-dont-USE-this-dammit package would work.
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<rpg>
jackdaniel: Nope. UIOP provides functionality mostly for OS and IMPLEMENTATION portability, and some related tasks like handling configuration files. I don't want it to grow to be a general utility library. Of course, it has ended up having in it the utilities *it* needs. And almost everything is exported.
<jackdaniel>
uhm, thanks for elaborating
<rpg>
I feel like in honor of Bjarne Stroustrop, it should be ALEXANDRIA++
<phoe>
rpg: there is, to the point where I added such a function to phoe-toolbox.
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<rpg>
phoe: I ended up copy-pasting the BESE definition, but it made me feel ugly.
<phoe>
But everyone has already explained why adding PARTITION to ALEXANDRIA would cause literal HAVOC for Xach when he tries to build the next quicklisp dist.
<phoe>
Like, all packages that (:use :alexandria :serapeum) will stop building, period.
<rpg>
phoe: Yeah, but I like ALEXANDRIA+:PARTITION
<phoe>
That's... a nice solution.
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<phoe>
;; I remember shitposting about so many utility libraries named after actual libraries. Alexandria, Serapeum, Constantia, Cesarum...
<rpg>
phoe: The first rule of Alexandria+ is "don't USE Alexandria+"
<phoe>
XD
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<jackdaniel>
don't shitpost, I'm sure there are better ways to point out issues
<phoe>
I am aware, I need to actually make some effort and grow up instead.
<phoe>
People don't really need to see the shitposting side of me to read what I have to say about Lisp issues.
<jackdaniel>
(defpackage "Przemyska biblioteka publiczna" …) sounds like a plan too
<sjl>
> Symbol tokens that start with a package marker are parsed by the Lisp reader as symbols in the KEYWORD package
<sjl>
||:foo doesn't start with a package markekr
<jackdaniel>
I don't mean this section
<jackdaniel>
from my vague memory, it is stated /somewhere/: conforming implementation is allowed to define the keyword package nickname to "" (and that actually makes the reader slightly easier to write)
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<Shinmera>
I looked in a bunch of places and could not find anything
<Shinmera>
another section states that the keyword package has no nicknames, so
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<jackdaniel>
hm
<Shinmera>
I suppose an implementation might do it like that, but I'm not sure the spce has to explicitly allow it.
<fouric>
phoe: exactly, everyone does it - might as well make it the actual package nam
<fouric>
hmmm, unicode is allowed in package names, right?
<phoe>
fouric: the actual package name is ALEXANDRIA.DEV.0
<fouric>
could you do a non-breaking space?
<fouric>
oh, TIL
<_death>
you could also go the other way around and export alexandria:unuse-package, which would be a shadowed symbol not eq to cl:unuse-package.. this will show them :users
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<phoe>
_death: I see that the number of lispers is not low enough for you
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<pjb>
If you want a frozen export list, you can (:use "ALEXANDRIA.1.0.0") instead of (:use "ALEXANDRIA").
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<pjb>
Perhaps "ALEXANDRIA" should have been named "ALEXANDRIA-WITH-UNFROZEN-EXPORT-LIST", but lispers usually assume that lispers are smart…
<pjb>
The more I live, the more I realize that assuming people are smart, or even intelligent is an error.
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<pjb>
sjl: "" is a nickname added to the "KEYWORD" package in clisp; it's a kludge. But it's conforming: an implementation can have implementation-specific packages and package nicknames.
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<pjb>
phoe: using #\nul in lisp sources, if it can be read by the implementation, should pose no problem, as long as the editor can deal with it.
<pjb>
phoe: note, emacs deals with it just right and nice:
<aeth>
Software patents are an issue with the US legal system. Building a permanent international license around a particular, temporary issue in the US legal system doesn't seem necessary.
<aeth>
No one even wants software patents. The issue is that the legislatures have to find a way to exclude software patents while keeping the conceptually similar pharma patents because the latter industry has deep pockets.
<fe[nl]ix>
it's not that temporary, and US-based contributors are many
<Odin->
fe[nl]ix: That article seems to presume that not mentioning patents is any kind of protection.
<fe[nl]ix>
so it is a concern to me
<Odin->
fe[nl]ix: That's simply incorrect.
<fe[nl]ix>
what ?
<Odin->
Licences that do not mention patents, like MIT, do not protect you against patents either.
<aeth>
fe[nl]ix: If (almost) no one in the software industry wants software patents, then, yes, they're a temporary legal issue that will eventually go away.
<Odin->
It would only be if the licence _specifically_ states that patent rights are granted.
<fe[nl]ix>
aeth: good luck with that, there's no possibility in sight that they will be eliminated in the US
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<Odin->
That only leaves copyleft licences.
<Odin->
Basically, software patents are a risk, no matter the copyright licence.
<Odin->
(Some copyright licences double as patent licences, however.)
<aeth>
fe[nl]ix: The US software industry itself doesn't want software patents. Thus, they will go away eventually. The last thing the US wants is to give up its edge in software to another country. It's a national security issue.
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<Odin->
Dunno, patent trolling is a very effective fundraising strategy for major companies.
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<phoe>
fe[nl]ix: OK, I'll relicense them tomorrow.
<phoe>
I chose it for TPLN since it contains SBCL code, which is public domain. And Unlicense is literally a public domain license.