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<ebrasca>
Morning beach
<ebrasca>
Morning splittist
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<matzy_>
i have a dumb question. is it possible to use hunchentoot as just a simple back-end api that talks to a database and sends json data to a react front-end?
<matzy_>
like i dont need it to serve html pages or anything like that, just provide data for the front-end
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<no-defun-allowed>
Yes, you can tell hunchentoot to serve any data.
<matzy_>
is that what dispatchers are for?
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<no-defun-allowed>
You can return any string from define-easy-handler, which can be JSON text.
<no-defun-allowed>
I'm not sure, I don't write REST or whatever programs.
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<no-defun-allowed>
I write something like (define-easy-handler (foobar :uri "/foobar") (name) ...) and can pass NAME as a query parameter.
<matzy_>
ah ok
<matzy_>
so in your example, what if you have a big json object?
<matzy_>
just stays as one variable?
<matzy_>
does cl treat it as a string? or is this getting into clos
<no-defun-allowed>
Just return the string that you want to send.
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<no-defun-allowed>
(and maybe set the content-type to represent what you are sending correctly.)
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<matzy_>
ok awesome. thanks for the help
<matzy_>
i'll screw around some more
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<matzy_>
this language has a crazy high learning curve, but i love it at the same time
<no-defun-allowed>
You're likely approaching it wrong if it has a high learning curve.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Maybe not wrong, sorry, but in a way that doesn't utilise what you find easy.
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<matzy_>
well i thought building a super simple api would solve that problem, but it really hasn;t
<matzy_>
i've been through the first 4 chapters of PCL which has helped some
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<saturn2>
you can also write the http response to a stream, if you want
<matzy_>
But like I went to this site (seems just what im looking for), http://quickdocs.org/simple-routes/, and go to run the demo, and it tells me "The name "CL-WHO" does not designate any package
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<saturn2>
something like (let ((stream (hunchentoot:send-headers))) (encode-json-to-stream stream data))
<saturn2>
you probably need to load cl-who by (ql:quickload "cl-who")
<pjb>
The former defines a CL packages. The later forms download, install and load systems.
<pjb>
packages and systems are entirely UNRELATED, just like HTTP is unrelated to HTML.
<pjb>
matzy_: you seem to have really strange connections in your brains…
<matzy_>
i dunno, i've learned a few languages but nothing like this
<saturn2>
other languages use the word "package" to mean "system"
<pjb>
matzy_: my dog is called Georges, but it has nothing in common with any US president.
<matzy_>
I'm originally a C guy
<saturn2>
in lisp, a package is just a collection of symbols, and it's used to protect different software from namespace collisions
<jackdaniel>
matzy_: "packages" in Common Lisp are similar to "namespaces" in C++
<jackdaniel>
C language has no package equivalent (except of consistently used prefixes)
<matzy_>
yeah thats what i was thinking
<matzy_>
is there an equivalent in JS?
<saturn2>
that defpackage line is creating a new package called simpleroutes-demo which imports all symbols from common-lisp, hunchentoot, cl-who, and simple-routes
<jackdaniel>
I don't think there is, but I don't know JS well enough to really tell
<pjb>
from the packages named "COMMON-LISP", "HUNCHENTOOT", "CL-WHO" and "SIMPLE-ROUTES", assuming they exist.
<saturn2>
yes, JS has modules which are similar to packages
<Jachy>
matzy_: modern JS modules are similar -- CL packages let you export symbols even.
<jackdaniel>
matzy_: n.b it is a well known fact, that packages in Common Lisp confuse new programmers
<matzy_>
saturn2 ok that makes sense. do they need to be ql'd first?
<saturn2>
they need to be loaded somehow, ql is a tool that will load them for you
<matzy_>
but i thought ql loads systems and not packages
<matzy_>
maybe i just need to read more on the difference
<jackdaniel>
matzy_: you may simply call (load "packages.lisp") to define packages, quicklisp is a library which is built on top of a buildsystem called asdf which underneath indeed calls compile-file and load
<pjb>
Systems are set of files.
<pjb>
loading a system means loading the files in some order (eg. a topological sort on file dependencies).
<matzy_>
ok
<pjb>
loading files _can_ have side effects, such as the creation or the modification of packages and other lisp data structure in the environment.
<matzy_>
so is it that you load a system once per project and then use the package wherever?
<jackdaniel>
yes. /me disconnects now, see you
<matzy_>
ahhh ok. thanks!
<pjb>
But otherwise, there's no relationship between systems and package. It may just happen that a system named "hunchentoot" may have files that when loaded will define a package named "HUNCHENTOOT", but it's pure hasard.
<saturn2>
nearly all systems will define a package with the same name, though
<matzy_>
funny, i think i got an error like that earlier
<pjb>
Note that packages are named with strings (usually in upper case, but not necessarily), while systems are named by lower-case strings.
<matzy_>
so say you want to use hunchentoot. do you load the system and the package in the same file?
<pjb>
A system may define 0, 1 or more packages. Therefore they just cannot map to package with the same name. Furthermore I just explained that system names are LOWERCASE, while package names are UPPERCASE! So they definitely cannot be the same!
<matzy_>
or is there a file where you load all your packages and then require systems where needed?
<pjb>
matzy_: you cannot load a package.
<pjb>
matzy_: you can only define a package.
<matzy_>
ah yeah ok, sorry i missed that
<pjb>
This may occur when loading a file, or when calling a function or a macro, or whenever.
<matzy_>
so if i have the system hunchentoot loaded, why on earth would i define a package with the same name (albeit different case)?
<matzy_>
ah, is it to map the package to teh correct system?
<pjb>
Yes, you would not, since if you read the documentation of the "hunchentoot" system, you will see that loading it will load files that will define a package named "HUNCHENTOOT".
<pjb>
So why would you do that yourself, indeed?
<matzy_>
ok, i see
<saturn2>
packages help you organize your code, systems help you compile and load your files
<matzy_>
ok this has definitely helped clear up some confusion lol
<matzy_>
much appreciated
<matzy_>
i'll read a little more on both and hopefully it'll fully click
<pjb>
matzy_: but be sure to check the names, sometimes, the package names are quite different from the system name.
<pjb>
and often several packages are defined. This is why asdf will display the name of the packages that are defined when the system is loaded.
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<matzy_>
how do you normally check the names? docs or trial and error?
<pjb>
doc, or as I said, you watch for the message from asdf when loading the system.
<matzy_>
ah ok
<pjb>
Also, often packages will have nicknames, and you will rather use some small nickname than the actual package name.
<matzy_>
so wait, are symbols defined within packages?
<pjb>
No.
<pjb>
Symbols are interned or present in packages.
<pjb>
They can be present by importing them, or by using a package that exports them.
<pjb>
(note that importing a homeless symbol will intern it).
<pjb>
matzy_: most lisp notion is indepedent and unrelated to other lisp notions.
<pjb>
When there's some coupling, it's rather weak and optional.
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<matzy_>
ok i'm starting to get it
<pjb>
This is one thing that makes it a strong language: you can combine everything with everything.
<matzy_>
thanks for much for all your time and explanation
<saturn2>
symbols do have a home package, though
<pjb>
Not all of them!
<pjb>
(make-symbol "FOO") #| --> #:foo |# no home package. (symbol-package (make-symbol "foo")) #| --> nil |#
<pjb>
This is what the #: notation means. "no home package".
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<francogrex>
hi, i would like to know if anyone uses/used Linj?
<Shinmera>
Speaking of ABCL, it seems easye has disappeared (people are unable to contact him anywhere)
<flip214>
ECL is supported on android
<flip214>
Shinmera: last I know is that he got a new job in January, something about common lisp
<Shinmera>
flip214: I was contacted in February and apparently the company he started working for was unable to contact him too
<flip214>
oh, ouch
<flip214>
that's not a good sign
<Shinmera>
Yeah :(
<flip214>
I'm not family, so I can't even call the Police
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<no-defun-allowed>
Shit, that escalated quickly.
<flip214>
Shinmera: when in February? Beginning or end?
<Shinmera>
4th, so exactly a month ago.
<flip214>
hrmpf
<flip214>
thanks
<flip214>
for the data
<Shinmera>
Apparently by then the company had been unable to reach him for weeks.
<Shinmera>
I don't live in Austria, nor know where he lives, so I wasn't really able to help out.
<beach>
Sounds bad.
<flip214>
well, in December he applied at BRZ... in the end of December (or beginning of Jan?) I kind-of-heard that he found some better place and wouldn't start with us
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<amerlyq>
Is ECL healhy and growing or old, abandoned and dying?
<beach>
The former.
<beach>
amerlyq: The current maintainer is jackdaniel and he is an invited speaker of ELS this year to talk about it.
<amerlyq>
So, could you still recommend using it as embedded language for new middle-sized projects?
<amerlyq>
Or is there anything different? Or maybe Lisp isn't the best tool for the job nowadays (like Lua/Python hype)?
<beach>
I don't recommend embedding Common Lisp in anything else, simply because I recommend writing the entire thing in Common Lisp. I am interested in ECL, but not for embedding.
<beach>
Oh, I think if you really have to embed something, it might as well be Common Lisp.
<amerlyq>
How ECL fare comparing with Guile in practice? There are not much comparison articles on the web I could find. But Guile had some incomprehensible memory corruptions last time I used it.
<beach>
Especially for a "new middle-sized project" I definitely recommend writing the entire thing in Common Lisp.
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<jcowan>
Are there any modern use cases for read-char-no-hang?
<beach>
amerlyq: What would be your reason for using something other than Common Lisp in a new middle-sized project?
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<beach>
amerlyq: I mean, if you have an existing code base written in (say) C, I can understand why you are not particularly interested in rewriting it, so in such a thing I can see embedding something like Common Lisp, but a new project?
<amerlyq>
People and libs. Of course it's a people thing. And libs. It's hard when there are only 2-3 lisp devs for dozen of C/C++ ones, and half of your libs are C++ already.
<amerlyq>
Of course we can write more cffi wrappers, but... it somehow doesn't "click".
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<beach>
Well, that depends on the kind of project. Also, you would have to weigh the difference between your productivity in different languages with the necessity of rewriting some libraries in Common Lisp. The latter would then benefit more Common Lisp programmers.
<p_l>
beach: there are various subtle runtime environment effects sometimes to take care
<amerlyq>
But sometimes I wonder too if writing everything in CL would be better. Fragmentation/API suffering from such mix becomes intolerable at times.
<p_l>
I have a half-started project that depends on ECL because it's easiest to build small, self-contained static binaries with it
<p_l>
it does help to inline some C code, even, though I'm hoping to put everything in CFFI
<phoe>
jcowan: yes, for instance, if you want to not block.
<beach>
I apologize. I thought we were here because we were convinced about the virtues of writing code in Common Lisp. Should have known.
<amerlyq>
Lisp is nice, but world is broken
<jcowan>
Trivially yes. But in what circumstances is that more useful than a general poll/select analogue?
<phoe>
beach: I thought we're here because we are writing Common Lisp, not because of ideology
<phoe>
one can practice Lisp without being convinced of the set of virtues that you mention after all
<beach>
I should have known better than to get involved. I will now be quiet.
<beach>
Again, I am sorry.
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<phoe>
system design is a necessity no matter which language you use
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<phoe>
also even if that language is English
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<jackdaniel>
amerlyq: we are closing to a release after few years of development
<phoe>
and that is amazing stuff
<jackdaniel>
there is only one remaining regression to be solved
<amerlyq>
oh, so that's what the gap in news means
<phoe>
for the time being, you can clone and build the newest ecl from the git repository
<phoe>
and have the freshmost ECL
<phoe>
;; same with CCL, though the CCL build process is more complicated
<amerlyq>
it sounds somewhat scary for production :)
<jackdaniel>
even after the release we won't build binaries, that's up to distributions to produce them
<amerlyq>
I meant I better wait until somebody mark some RC version as "stable enough" on master branch
<phoe>
if you want production quality stuff, then yes, you should wait for a release (;
<jackdaniel>
either way, if you have problems with using ECL drop by on #ecl (unless you have some general lisp question, then this channel is fine)
<jackdaniel>
regarding comparison to scheme -- the closest implementation to ecl in scheme world is chicken not guile
<amerlyq>
phoe: yes, there is the time to upgrade old stuff (and fix upgrade problems), and the time to write new stuff (and fix its bugs). And better never mix them together. So I will wait :)
<amerlyq>
jackdaniel: you have a point
<jackdaniel>
as of "news gap", it is time-consuming to write quality posts, even short ones
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<pfdietz>
'I apologize for such a long letter - I didn't have time to write a short one.' -- Mark Twain
<pfdietz>
'Most internet quotations are completely made up.' -- Abraham Lincoln
<jackdaniel>
'I understood that reference.' - Captain America
<amerlyq>
pfdietz: still I understand jackdaniel, it's always some mental endeavour to write it, even if you simply dump whatever mess you have in your head.
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<jackdaniel>
n.b, some folks may be interested in the fact, that EQL5 project (ECL embedded in QT5) works on iphone (ios)
<jackdaniel>
(and on Android, but previous release also did work there, so it is not that much news)
<amerlyq>
Oh, nice. Why anybody still uses Qt ECMAScript anyway I would liked to know...
<wsinatra>
amerlyq: Thanks for the Night Watch suggest, absolutely hilarious read; and a good reminder to be a little less pedantic (since I'm quit well aligned with beach's mindset)
<jackdaniel>
night watch?
<amerlyq>
The, night watch :)
<amerlyq>
J.Mickens read
<jackdaniel>
ah, I see the link now, thank you
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<jackdaniel>
also, it is important to note, that ECL has now two maintainers, so even if I'm hit by the bus we are good to go ;)
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<didi>
So this SBCL warning is new to me: `; caught STYLE-WARNING:; Can't preserve function source - missing MAKE-LOAD-FORM methods?' I'm compiling a method. What does it mean?
<loli>
let me add that to my script and see if that works
<_death>
best way to disable it is to fix it
<loli>
Yes, but it is not my package, I'd have to submit a PR and wait.
<_death>
not really.. you can just patch it.. submission of PR is a bonus
<loli>
well I have this script deployed via roswell, and so my coworkers get this warning as well
<_death>
oh well
<loli>
thanks phoe, after removing the force it worked like a charm
<phoe>
loli: after removing :force?
<phoe>
at this point you might get no warnings whatsoever because it'll be loading precompiled FASL files
<loli>
which is fine by me
<phoe>
unless you compile from source
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<loli>
I must say Ros is quite nice to use. Do we have anyway of fixing a package to use various libraries within a range of versions?
<loli>
That was something I was never able to figure out too well.
<zulu_inuoe>
Oh I remember now. Is there a way to have quicklisp install the dependencies of a system, without loading the system itself?
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<zulu_inuoe>
Best I can think of atm is to asdf:find-system, iterate through its deps (including defsystem-depends-on deps) and quickload each one
<ebrasca>
Hi , I get this error http://ix.io/2doB when I try to load :next browser.
<phoe>
zulu_inuoe: no idea
<phoe>
I think you could hack the QL client into loading everything *but* a given system
<phoe>
that should be doable by editing its sources
<phoe>
(and you could possibly make a PR to quicklisp-client that achieves this in a clean way!)
<wsinatra>
zulu_inuoe: Would fukamachi's Qlot work? I don't think I've more than glanced at it, but it sounds similar
<zulu_inuoe>
qlot would work but I'd rather avoid it right now until I look into it later. It's fallen down a few times last I used it and want to avoid an extra dep if I can avoid it
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<wsinatra>
That makes sense, I've never used it myself so it was really just a guess
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<ebrasca>
I have no idea how to fix my error.
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<phoe>
minion: memo for jmercouris: is there an IRC channel for nextbrowser-related stuff? ebrasca is having issues loading it and I think the rising popularity warrants having a separate channel by now
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
<ebrasca>
phoe: I think my problem is more asdf .
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<ebrasca>
phoe: It loaded fine in my gentoo and after some update it stop loading.
<ebrasca>
phoe: There is #nEXT-Browser
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<phoe>
oh! I see
<phoe>
hm...
<phoe>
(ql:quickload :prove-asdf) ? I never used prove, but I wonder if that will fix it
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<phoe>
(also, TIL of a new IRC channel)
* eeeeeta
wonders idly whether there are any Lispy XMPP channels about
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<ebrasca>
I just run (ql:quickload :prove-asdf) and what I don with it?
<akhetopnu>
I have a system in common lisp that depends on a bunch of other systems. I want to compile this system into a single .fasl file *and not load it afterwards*. Is that possible? I'm tinkering with different operations, I tried compile-op (the 'best practices' page on asdf's github says it 'does not necessarily load them system') but it doesn't work as advertised.
<ebrasca>
phoe: I think you mean this (prove-asdf:run-test-system :next)
<akhetopnu>
is there a way to compile it without the runtime? just the system + dependencies?
<jmercouris>
I want to add a feature to Next where you can also view the source of a given command, I'm wondeirng how to do this
<minion>
jmercouris, memo from phoe: is there an IRC channel for nextbrowser-related stuff? ebrasca is having issues loading it and I think the rising popularity warrants having a separate channel by now
<jmercouris>
phoe: channel, next-browser
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<ebrasca>
jmercouris: hi
<jmercouris>
I have a macro define-command
<jmercouris>
hello ebrasca
<jmercouris>
where I do save the function body, just not sure how to print the function body
<jmercouris>
not sure if that makes sense
<ebrasca>
jmercouris: I am updating my sbcl and asdf
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<jmercouris>
OK :-]
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<jmercouris>
given: (defparameter x (lambda (y) (print y)))
<jmercouris>
how can I print (lambda (y) (print y))?
<jmercouris>
OH there is a source form
<jmercouris>
interesting
<phoe>
jmercouris: you mean print the--- oh, I see
<phoe>
normally you can't do that without remembering the uncompiled form in some way
<phoe>
SBCL maybe does that for you
<jmercouris>
Yeah, I was thinking depending on the optimize level or something
<jmercouris>
I'm also afraid I'd never heard of a reference to that anywhere, but it is appearing in SBCL
<jmercouris>
I'd like it to work however cross implementation, so maybe I will need to save the SEXP or something in my define-command macro
<jmercouris>
I feel a little bit silly now, I even have that in my codebase :-)
<jmercouris>
I guess it is getting late
<Bike>
it's impossible to remember everything.
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<jmercouris>
True, I am comparing the collective knowledge of the channel to my own personal knowledge
<phoe>
the collective hivemind is there for you when you need advice that your own mind doesn't produce at the moment
<phoe>
a general rule of interacting with a hivemind is just to keep a decent contribution-to-request ratio, or, if you don't yet feel like contributing yourself, a decent do-your-own-homework-to-request ratio
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<iAmDecim>
new slime question. so i made a basic function that just prints a string and compiled it..called it in the repl. thats fine. then i changed one character and C-c C-c again expecting it to show the updated function result and its holding the old version
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<iAmDecim>
sayoonara....ok thats funny =P
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<iAmDecim>
Hmm can someone tell me whats wrong here? similar to my issue earlier except even when I execute it after loading it's not picking up on the function. https://imgur.com/a/1BNKIz3