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<dlowe>
reply smelly try again later
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<beach>
aeth: First-class global environments are not just a small extra feature the way package-local nicknames are. They require a large part of the existing system to be restructured and a lot of the code to be rewritten.
<beach>
phoe: So I don't think first-class global environments would be represented by a single pull request. If I were to implement first-class global environments in some existing implementation, I would make gradual changes over a long period of time.
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<beach>
Plus, with first-class global environments, there is a (small) performance cost for things like SYMBOL-FUNCTION with a symbol that is not known at compile time. Maintainers of implementations that want maximum performance in all situations would not be willing to accept that.
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<Oladon>
Anyone here used spinneret for HTML templating? I'm trying to figure out the best way to implement nestable templates, and his deftag doesn't seem quite right.
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<phoe>
beach: I'm aware, it's a pretty big change after all.
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<beach>
phoe: Though there is one more advantage. When the code of a Common Lisp implementation is restructured in order to allow for multiple global environments, the code becomes more regular and more independent of the specific details of the implementation.
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<ear-the-art>
beach, sandboxing?
<beach>
ear-the-art: It was aeth who asked whether I thought that first-class global environments would ever become part of existing Common Lisp implementations.
<ear-the-art>
ah, hmm.
<beach>
Then, phoe said he might someday be willing to merge a PR for CCL in a forked version.
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<beach>
One reason I started the SICL project is that I think the code of existing implementations is often old and hard to maintain. And I think it would be more work to fix that problem than to write a new implementation from scratch.
<beach>
A new implementation would also be the opportunity to reconsider fundamental design decisions that may have been the right ones at the time but that no longer are.
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<beach>
But it is going to take time to get a new implementation to be as fast and as stable as the most common existing Common Lisp implementations.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Silly compiler question: do jump tables become less effective as the code they jump into becomes larger?
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<beach>
I seriously doubt that. Why would they?
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<no-defun-allowed>
I'm still trying to guess reasons why binary search would be faster than using SBCL's jump tables in my bytecode interpreter.
<beach>
I think it is very hard to get answers to such questions. It depends on the code generated by the compiler, on the processor architecture, on the processor implementation, etc.
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<no-defun-allowed>
:/
<beach>
In this case, you also have a memory lookup for the jump table.
<no-defun-allowed>
Yeah.
<beach>
So if the binary search is very fast, then a jump table may not be able to compete.
<no-defun-allowed>
Makes sense.
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<beach>
no-defun-allowed: It may be a case that is similar to the comparison between PCL generic dispatch and SICL generic dispatch. PCL uses a table in memory and SICL uses binary search.
<no-defun-allowed>
Yes, I based the dispatch off SICL binary search (and we have discussed it before).
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<no-defun-allowed>
You had suggested using a jump table yesterday, and I've been eager to test how SBCL handles those, but I haven't had very good results.
<no-defun-allowed>
Have you run it under a profiler to tell what is slowest?
<no-defun-allowed>
And please don't use (safety 0) unless you are very certain that nothing can go wrong, and then only in small doses.
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<Josh_2>
I am using safety 0 in small doses
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<no-defun-allowed>
You appear to have an interesting definition of "small".
<Josh_2>
using it in 3 functions is "small"
<Josh_2>
considering the entire system they are a part of
<Josh_2>
Besides, they are the backbone of the system, they need to be performant for the entire system to be performant
<no-defun-allowed>
Have you decided that using (safety 1) would be much slower?
<Josh_2>
It produces 1/3rd more machine code
<Josh_2>
so I'd assume so
<no-defun-allowed>
Have you bcnchmarked it?
<no-defun-allowed>
bcnchmarked → benchmarked
<Josh_2>
I have not benchmarked with safety 1
<no-defun-allowed>
I would strongly suggest doing so before you make those assumptions.
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<Josh_2>
weird
<Josh_2>
I'll use safety 1 then
<Josh_2>
I don't know why but it scraped off a few hundred ms
<no-defun-allowed>
It is usually unwise to use (safety 0) to disable runtime checks, because the problems that could arise if some invariants you decided on are broken would be more of a problem than the slight decrease in throughput caused by checks.
<phoe>
have you profiled?
<no-defun-allowed>
As Baker bluntly put it (in the case of some embedded systems), "rather than having the software discover its own errors in a benign way, the discovery of such errors is left to the FAA or a Congressional committee."
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<no-defun-allowed>
Looking at line 6, (THE BOOLEAN (LISTEN STREAM)) might be incorrect, because LISTEN only returns a generalised boolean. It is also excessive, because comparing an object to NIL is no faster if you know what the object could otherwise be.
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<no-defun-allowed>
I think READ-N-BYTES would be better written as a wrapper over READ-SEQUENCE, but it may be that spelling out the definition gives better type inference in your case.
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<Josh_2>
I removed "the" from listen
<Josh_2>
I think to get a real speed improvement i'd have to redesign the entire parser
<Josh_2>
I don't know why safety 1 sped it up a little bit but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<Josh_2>
it did
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<no-defun-allowed>
Some implementations may type check at THE, some may assume the value will always be of the provided type.
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<no-defun-allowed>
But profile your code, please. I would recommend SB-SPROF if you're on SBCL to get some prerequisite information.
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<heisig>
There are also several tools for visualizing SBCL's profiler output, like clim.flamegraph and cl-flamegraph.
<no-defun-allowed>
Absolutely, then you should move to the non-statistical profiler, which records calls and provides more precise information.
<no-defun-allowed>
But the statistical profiler just checks a thread's call stack frequently, instead of wrapping functions from a set you choose, which I think is better for getting an idea of where cycles are burnt.
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<flip214>
no-defun-allowed: is that aprof?
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<flip214>
> SBCL includes both a deterministic profiler, that can collect statistics on individual functions, and a more “modern” statistical profiler.
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<Xach>
It's quicklisp dist day!
<beach>
Congratulations!
<drmeister>
Huzzah!
* Xach
prepares to sound the alpenhorn of announcement
<jackdaniel>
yay
<flip214>
Xach: you're going to yodel as well?
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<Xach>
for platinum sponsors only
<flip214>
will that be live or only a recording then?
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<Xach>
details will be in the email sent to platinum sponsors
<Xach>
and posted in the platinum club lounge
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<phoe>
<3
<phoe>
how do I join the platinum club
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<jdz>
phoe: You need to be introduced (sponsored?) by an existing member.
<phoe>
jdz: ...are there any existing members at all
<jdz>
First rule of the platinum sponsor club...
<Xach>
one (but not the only) prerequisite is to stay on-topic in #lisp!
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<Bike>
so there are no members, then
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<phoe>
shit, no chance for an invidation then
<jdz>
Bike: Just look at the list of people in this channel, and how many of them you know have typed anything?
<phoe>
if one never typed anything on #lisp, have they been staying on-topic?
<jdz>
Totally.
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<phoe>
they are much more on-topic than us, then
<jdz>
They are the ones, watching us.
<phoe>
we should take our leave while we still can
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<_death>
what about customers of the steel bank?
<flip214>
Bike: if there are no members, just assert yourself as the first one -- and declare independence!
<flip214>
phoe: "Only the one who never types anything at all never errs" or so, right?
<_Ark_>
I've tried `(get-internal-run-time)` along with `internal-time-units-per-second`, but on SBCL it gives milliseconds.
<_Ark_>
`sb-ext:get-time-of-day` is closer, but it only goes down to microseconds.
<phoe>
(local-time:now)
<phoe>
but I wonder if that gives nanoseconds on SBCL...
<pjb>
_Ark_: then multiply by 1000000.
<Xach>
_Ark_: i don't know if there's a more direct way, but you could use sb-alien to use the underlying OS apis. if you know what OS api provides it, you could also grep SBCL sources for something that uses that API.
<_death>
there exists a monotonic-clock library
<Xach>
I don't see one at a glance but I am not looking super-hard
<Xach>
_Ark_: out of curiosity, what will you do with the timestamp when you get it?
<pjb>
or (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.time:get-real-time) #| --> 3.794139978273096D+9 |#
<pjb>
or (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.time:get-run-time) #| --> 7.1337779999999995D0 |#
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<Shinmera>
_Ark_: sb-unix:unix-gettimeofday
<Xach>
Shinmera: that does not do nanoseconds.
<pjb>
Most computers don't know nanoseconds…
<Shinmera>
Microseconds ought to be enough for anybody
<pjb>
Until you have a 4 GHz processor :-)
<_Ark_>
Xach: I want to add some built-in profiling to my game engine. Mircoseconds will work for this, but I was curious how fine-grain of time lisp can get.
<Xach>
that is the spirit
<Xach>
_Ark_: good detail
<Shinmera>
It can get however fine grained the system offers
<_Ark_>
Yeah I figured FFI was always an option. Was wondering if there was a "standard" way to do this. For some applications nano-time is desierable
<Shinmera>
Like what
<Shinmera>
That resolution won't be useful because it'll be highly dominated by noise anyway.
<Shinmera>
Cycle counting would make more sense, but that too is riddled with issues.
<_Ark_>
I used to be an APM (Application Performance Monitoring) devleoper for the JVM. Basically a simple profiler designed to run in production. We always measured in cpu nanoseconds. In practice it ended up being useful.
<_Ark_>
Looking though some of the libraries people linked. Seems like `local-time` on sbcl is using `sb-ext:get-time-of-day` under the hood. I'll take a look at monotonic-clock next...
<jcowan>
I once interviewed for Mellon Bank, does that count?
<jcowan>
(Not for U.S. Steel, though)
<Shinmera>
jcowan: ?
<jcowan>
U.S. Steel is the corporate descendant of Carnegie Steel. CMU's money didn't come from nowhere.
<Shinmera>
What context am I missing here?
<MichaelRaskin>
yodel, I guess
<MichaelRaskin>
(a mention of upcoming QuickLisp release lead to a bit of offtopic)
<Shinmera>
I read that and still don't understand. Oh well, no matter.
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<Bike>
steel bank common lisp is descended from carnegie mellon university common lisp, because carnegie was a steel mogul and mellon a banker
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<Shinmera>
Yeah, I was missing that one message from _death a while back.
<_Ark_>
I guess my take-away is that getting the CPU time will required an FFI call (or more desirably using a library that manages the FFI for you). To Shinmera's point, this is overkill and not helpful for most applications, so micro-time is likely what you want.
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<phoe>
either that, or you make a syscall yourself
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<_death>
if you're willing to bear the consequences of rtdsc, you can also do that
<_death>
*rdtsc
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<dlowe>
worse, some computers claim to know nanoseconds and then only update their nanosecond counter every microsecond or so
<_death>
resolution vs. precision
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<jmercouris>
when I use cffi:callback to pass a callback to some C code, how can I store that in the C code? what is it a void *?
<jmercouris>
I don't even know what type I could store it as
<jackdaniel>
data and function pointers are separate in C
<jackdaniel>
you may call it Lisp-2 in this regard :-)
<jackdaniel>
C-2 *
<pjb>
jmercouris: well it's a function pointer, so you can cast it to a void*.
<jmercouris>
is there a way to store the function pointer and invoke it later?
<pjb>
jmercouris: in any case, the cffi declaration of the C function, and the C function itself don't need to have the same type of parameters.
<jackdaniel>
pjb: in C standard casting function pointers to data pointers is undefined behavior
<pjb>
(they really don't have the same type of parameters).
<pjb>
jackdaniel: really?
<jackdaniel>
yes
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<jackdaniel>
typedef void (*fp)(void);
<jackdaniel>
now cast to fp and you are golden
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<jmercouris>
so I could say fp = xyz
<jmercouris>
where xyz is the arg that I pass into the C function?
<jackdaniel>
rater: fp foo; foo = &xyz;
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<jmercouris>
I see, let me try this a little bit
<jmercouris>
the C part of this code is giving me a headache
<_death>
void call(void (*fp)(void), int arg) { fp(arg); }
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<jmercouris>
_death: I need to store it and call it later
<jmercouris>
it is a callback which is why I was asking about the type
<jackdaniel>
even if they are pointers to callbacks defined with cffi!
<Bike>
function pointers and data pointers aren't interchangeable but you can use function pointers fine. declare a global variable with function pointer type, put it in a struct, whatever
<_death>
you'd also want to take a context pointer, i.e. some void pointer to store as well and pass along when calling the function pointer
<pjb>
jackdaniel: I see only a prevention of casting (void*) to float, in 6.5.4 of ISO/IEC 9899:201x Committee Draft — April 12, 2011 N1570
<pjb>
to and from.
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<TMA>
pjb: you need to consider the whole standard; undefined behavior need not be explicitely specified, the necessary condition is that the standard does not explicitely or implicitely specify it
<pjb>
TMA: yes, but then the C standard doesn't specify a Turing Complete language either. So we could stop there.
<pjb>
TMA: but if it's not formally forbidden, and all C compilers do the right thing, where's the objection?
<TMA>
pjb: embedded platforms can have function pointers bigger or smaller than data pointers
<jackdaniel>
pjb: in 6.3.2.3 (same document), pointes 7. and 8.; there is no specification about casting between object and function pointers
<jackdaniel>
points8
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<jackdaniel>
it is certainly nice that it "usually works", but I think that there are architectures where normal data pointer is insufficient to store function address
<jackdaniel>
s/address/pointer/
<pjb>
Ok, so it could work or not, it's implementation dependent. So we'd need to cast to something like int(*)() or void(*)() perhaps. typedef void(*function_ptr)();
<jackdaniel>
yes
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<pjb>
Anyways, my point was that the CFFI declaration of _death's store function above doesn't need to use the type of void(*fp)(void) as argument, but can take the cffi:callback type.
<pjb>
Said otherwise, FFIs don't validate the function signatures across languages. If it could, we wouldn't have to declare the C functions in lisp!
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<jmercouris>
not to fuel the off-topic discussion, but I read somewhere that it is apparently a posix specification that it should work
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<dlowe>
I wonder if you could use DWARF debugging information to pull FFI definitions
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<pjb>
dlowe: theorically, if it's available, yes.
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<flip214>
_Ark_: SBCL shows the CPU cycles in (time), (sb-ext:call-with-timing) can give that without parsing text, and then there's (sb-impl::read-cycle-counter) ...
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