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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<ahungry>
mornin
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<McParen>
hello, does somebody have experience with cffi-groveler? i am considering including the groveler to substitute a hard-coded set of constants in my ncurses library, and I cannot assess how risky it is to have a groveling step when the library is built.
<heisig>
Oh, but that is because cl-mpi requires a particular C compiler (mpicc). If are happy with the default, or with something widely used like gcc, there shouldn't be any problems.
<heisig>
Is there a reason why cl-test-grid only tests sbcl-1.3.2 on arm, or does it only show test failures?
<McParen>
this varies from month to month, i think that depends on who contributes the test cases.
<McParen>
no, it usually includes successful runs too.
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<McParen>
I only need a few integer constants, so I dont know whether it is less problematic to simply hardcode them or to add a dependence to a C compiler, include files, etc.
<heisig>
No, don't hardcode constants. C is not dynamically typed, so you can get some very bizarre bugs that way.
<heisig>
Asking the C compiler is the right way. Or, you could rewrite all the C dependencies in Lisp :)
<McParen>
the dependence in question is libc, locale.h
<edgar-rft>
AFAIK a constant that can change isn't a constant
<McParen>
it is the #define LC_ALL
<McParen>
I do not know how often the integers behind the defines are changed or whether they are equal between different systems
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<heisig>
Fun fact: A C constant is not even a Lisp constant, because the Lisp process might live longer than the version of the C library in use.
<heisig>
This can actually happen if you reload dynamic libraries after resuming from save-lisp-and-die.
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* heisig
should have written 'Lisp image' instead of 'Lisp process'
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<Shinmera>
heisig: so what you're saying is that grovelling is also wrong
<aeth>
heisig: I assume that C type sizes won't change, although of course, that's only an assumption
<Shinmera>
edgar-rft: that's what everyone's already doing
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<McParen>
Shinmera: does any of your systems have cffi-grovel as a dependence? if yes, did it cause problems for users?
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<Shinmera>
No. I avoid the groveller because of the C compiler dependency.
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<edgar-rft>
I already wrongly assumed that a constant is constant
<Shinmera>
I hard-code constants per platform and have not had issues because of that so far.
<McParen>
okay, thanks.
<aeth>
edgar-rft: I assume that the language I'm using is constant, which works for CL so far
<Shinmera>
Well, not just the C compiler dependency, but also the dependency on the library being installed (with header files to boot)
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<aeth>
oone of these days someone's going to remove the deprecated functions like remove-if-not, though
<aeth>
s/oone/one/
<edgar-rft>
LC_ALL = Lisp
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<heisig>
Shinmera: I think you can re-grovel, if you really care about the life of your Lisp image. But nowadays, I just try to avoid C dependencies.
<heisig>
aeth: Nobody is ever going to remove remove-if-not.
<Shinmera>
heisig: re-grovel on a target machine?
<Shinmera>
fat chance of that!
<heisig>
Only if your goal is to deploy long-lasting images. If you just want to obtain an executable, feel free to forget about this issue.
<heisig>
I'm just mentioning this here because it already bit me once.
<heisig>
You can only have one active MPI implementation at a time. But for testing, it is nice if you can change the implementation while your REPL stays alive.
<aeth>
heisig: they could remove remove-if-not via (remove-if-not (complement #'deprecatedp) functions)
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<heisig>
Nah. Should there ever be people with enough influence to release a new CL standard, they will also have enough wisdom not to change the CL package.
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<aeth>
it was a joke
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<heisig>
There are things one shouldn't joke about :)
<_death>
you're likely evaluating it in a package where defpackage is not cl:defpackage
<vms14>
hmm, thanks
<vms14>
Using #<Package "COMMON-LISP"> in #<Package "GAME"> would cause name conflicts with symbols already present in that package:DEFPACKAGE COMMON-LISP:DEFPACKAGE meh
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<vms14>
how should I use defpackage in a way it will work in all implementations without troubles? in sbcl I saw no problem
<_death>
it's unlikely that your issue is due to difference in implementations
<vms14>
it's weird, if I put ccl --load game.lisp I see no warnings, but with slime I get a restart
<vms14>
yeah, the real reason is I'm too noob xD
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<_death>
packages are stateful, so you may get yourself into a "weird" state.. if you're not sure about the current state, one way is to restart your lisp and try again
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<_death>
you can also explicitly qualify symbols to help in figuring out the state, e.g., using cl:*package* to determine the current package
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<_death>
or (cl:describe 'defpackage) to see information about the defpackage symbol in the current package
<vms14>
why defpackage gives me errors, and I even have to put the package name like cl:defpackage
<vms14>
and make-package just works
<vms14>
but meh
<_death>
if you "meh" you'll remain a noob
<vms14>
I thought defpackage was a fancy way to use make-package
<vms14>
and I always used defpackage in sbcl, never had a problem
<vms14>
until now using ccl
<_death>
so, figure out what the issue with your use of defpackage is
<vms14>
the issue is defpackage tells me there is a shadowing problem with the 'defpackage symbol once I :use :common-lisp
<vms14>
but make-package does not
<_death>
figure out the cause of this
<vms14>
wtf, in the repl there is no trouble now
<vms14>
(defpackage :meh (:use :common-lisp))
<vms14>
restarted slime and I cannot reproduce the error, so I don't know what was happening
<_death>
transient issues like getting into a "weird state" during development are ok to ignore, but for your written code you should understand 100% why something works or not
<vms14>
it's weird, because the only thing I've done was to quickload clx and defpackage then
<vms14>
and I've copypasted the same sexp that gave me the error
<vms14>
but, I'll ignore that unless it happens again, maybe I did something without knowing
<vms14>
thanks anyway _death for trying to help
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<theosvoitha>
Hello. Am just curious. What is lisp still used for? I somehow like it. am learning programming for data science.
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<no-defun-allowed>
"Having asked about the possibility that there are real people out there who use Lisp (as opposed to AI People who are known to be non-real and having received no answers, I can only conclude that LISP is not being used and that it is not, therefore, a real language." — Lisp Pointers, 198something
<no-defun-allowed>
A few things. Some that spring to mind include programs that give advice to traders, and the (in my opinion) best quantum computer compiler and simulator.
<heisig>
theosvoitha: I think there isn't a single domain where Lisp hasn't been used successfully. See https://lisp-lang.org/success/ for a few examples.
<theosvoitha>
heisig: checking. thanks. as i said i somehow like simplicity.
<no-defun-allowed>
There's also some game developers using Lisp, high performance computing people, Internet server making people, and generally it's usable for anything.
<theosvoitha>
because i can't find the official website in wiki.
<theosvoitha>
also i found that Emacs Lisp is a dialect of the Lisp programming language used as a scripting language by Emacs
<beach>
theosvoitha: What would be an "official website" for Common Lisp? Nobody owns it.
<theosvoitha>
beach: No i mean where can i download or learn ?
<beach>
theosvoitha: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp. It has an ANSI standard, and multiple implementations.
<beach>
theosvoitha: Each implementation is independent. Common Lisp is not a single-implementation language.
<beach>
theosvoitha: Currently, the best suggestion for a newbie bundle seems to be Portacle.
<theosvoitha>
beach: Still something i may follow to learn. where should i start from?
<beach>
minion: Please tell theosvoitha about PCL.
<minion>
theosvoitha: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<beach>
theosvoitha: Also, there is #clschool for question about basic Common Lisp.
<vms14>
theosvoitha: for prototyping is one of the best languages
<vms14>
also for building complex software and trying new things
<vms14>
specially with macros, creating dsl is very easy, which really helps at creating big and complex software
<vms14>
for building your own stuff, it's a very nice language to have in hand
<vms14>
and with slime you get instant feedback of everything you write
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<vms14>
this is very important, since there is no compile cycle nor even save-file/call-interpreter
<vms14>
you just write something and execute it, so you know if does what you wanted
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<edgar-rft>
theosvoitha: in case nobody has already mentioned it before, there is a Common Lisp Wiki with lots of useful information -> https://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started
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<eta>
is there a version of MACROLET that works like LABELS, i.e. you can reference variables in the lexical environment?
<LdBeth>
you can always reference lexical variables in macro
<LdBeth>
although they are not guaranteed to be lexical
<eta>
LdBeth, CLHS seems to say doing so is undefined behaviour
<eta>
> Declarations and macrolet and symbol-macrolet definitions affect the local macro definitions in a macrolet, but the consequences are undefined if the local macro definitions reference any local variable or function bindings that are visible in that lexical environment.
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* eta
wonders if they can get away with it anyway
<LdBeth>
but regular macro still works
<pjb>
eta: you should clarify what you want to do.
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<pjb>
eta: notably, macros are expanded at compilation time, while lexical bindings are established at run-time. Like, in a 100 years, on a different computer (probably an emulator then).
<eta>
pjb, I want to write (let ((a 1)) (macrolet ((do-thing-with-a (b) `(+ ,a ,b))) (do-thing-with-a 2)))
<eta>
i.e. I'm referencing the lexical variable 'a' inside my macrolet
<pjb>
Yes, this is not possible with LET.
<eta>
pjb, so I have to use SYMBOL-MACROLET or EVAL?
<pjb>
eta: if you want to have variables that you can mutate in the macro (at macroexpansion time/compilation time) and then access it (or not) at run-time, you will need to write your own MACRO-LET macro.
<eta>
pjb, I don't want to mutate them
<eta>
pjb, could I perhaps change ,a to a and have it still work?
<pjb>
Then symbol-macrolet can be a good solution.
<eta>
pjb, I hadn't seen that SYMBOL-MACROLET trick before (nice!), but I'll just go with a instead of ,a for this case :)
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<pjb>
eta: just keep in mind of WHEN different expressions are evaluated. (macroexpansion time, compilation time, load time, run-time, when evaluated by a call to EVAL, when read (reader macros, #.) etc).
<eta>
pjb, that helps me understand it, thanks!
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<jcowan>
My sense is that a construct for defining recursive local macros is not sufficiently useful.
<jcowan>
Indeed, I think it may be unnecessary, given that the result of a macro procedure is itself expanded again.
<jcowan>
So it would only come up if you want macro A and B, declared in the same scope, to invoke one another in their bodies
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<Bike>
sounds exciting.
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Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
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