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<White_Flame>
hmm, inside my embedded language reader, triggered from #{, I only use read-char and up to a single unread-char. After 4 of these expressions, all of a sudden the 5th is read from way earlier in the file
<White_Flame>
and this seems to only happen when it's embedded lisp inside the #{, and uses a quoted expression
<White_Flame>
I wonder if this is an SBCL bug?
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<beach>
White_Flame: You can try to read it with Eclector and see.
<White_Flame>
yep, seems to be an sbcl bug
<White_Flame>
I just made a 20 line test case without any libs
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<sabrac>
Revisiting a docstring topic from a year ago.
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* Xach
scrolls back
<sabrac>
Was there ever agreement on line length and newlines or let the reader worry about that?
<Xach>
I strongly prefer limiting lines to under 80 characters, because I read them in Emacs and in printouts. I don't have something that renders them to make them more readable. I don't know what others prefer.
<no-defun-allowed>
80-90 characters is usually what I aim for as well.
<no-defun-allowed>
You can fit two files that are about 80-90 characters wide on a 1080p monitor side-by-side, even with a fairly large font.
<sabrac>
Can do that. Context - updating docstrings and documentation for postmodern
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<no-defun-allowed>
Though, for documentation strings, I don't usually wrap those because that might not be suitable for the medium we render documentation to (such as a HTML document with Staple).
<sabrac>
I am specifically asking about documentation strings only
<sabrac>
and you have pinpointed the reason for my question
<sabrac>
but it is important I keep Xach happy ;)
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<Xach>
i can appreciate the tension in different use cases
<Odin->
Renderers that use hard breaks are wrong.
<Odin->
There's a _reason_ HTML itself doesn't do them.
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<jackdaniel>
Odin-: do you have some resource I could read which explains the topic?
<bitmapper>
man i finally get a copy of lispworks and the IDE is terrible
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<jackdaniel>
it can't be worse then emacs, can it? :)
<jackdaniel>
than*
<Odin->
jackdaniel: None that I remember specifically on this. I believe the reasoning was explained in some (La)TeX documentation.
<Xach>
bitmapper: at least it was for a good reason.
<bitmapper>
Xach: what was for a good reason
<Odin->
jackdaniel: What it eventually boils down to is "there really is no such thing as plain text", though.
<jackdaniel>
Odin-: uhm, thanks. I agree. but from practical point of view, say my program has some text with hard lines and I want to do some wrapping too, what am I expected to do? split lines in the program (first hard, then wrap by soft lines), and then fed each to the renderer?
<jackdaniel>
(with appropriate coordinates of course)
<jackdaniel>
I'm askin for a friend who works on McCLIM! ;)
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<Odin->
jackdaniel: The approach both HTML and TeX adopted is that line breaks in rendered text are represented by a higher-level protocol, rather than directly encoded.
<Odin->
IOW, line breaks appearing in the input are ignored, unless they form part of the higher-level protocol.
<jackdaniel>
OK, that makes sense to me and that's what we do (more or less :), thank you again
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<Odin->
I haven't thought it through in any detail, but it seems to me like as soon as you're not treating lines of text as your fundamental unit, an approach like this becomes needed.
<Odin->
Text encoding on computers sharing fundamentals with teletype machines is the root of this, I think.
<jackdaniel>
a simple example: say you have a function which returns index of the next break -- then you render from the start to this break, and a new start is the next character
<jackdaniel>
so either end or start is a character which may be newline
<Odin->
Lines and tab stops being important is fundamentally a typewriter thing.
<jackdaniel>
so you are either forced to do what you've mentioned (i.e ignore newline character in a renderer), or you cons a lot to produce substrings
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<jackdaniel>
or you represent each break as two numbers, end+start
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<jackdaniel>
but but, I have serve-event multiprocessing issue to fix :)
<jackdaniel>
in ecl
<Odin->
jackdaniel: And that's a lot of work when you ultimately don't particularly care what the lines were in the input, which is the case for most renderers.
<jackdaniel>
T
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<phoe>
heisig: "Is there any comprehensive petalisp tutorial besides examples from it's git repo? It seems very nice and almost exactly what I need for my project, but it's very cryptic at first glance"
<phoe>
that's a question that I got on another lisp hangout place and a question that you might be able to answer
<phoe>
"When the debugger is entered, the set of active restarts is presented to the user."
<phoe>
I'm sorta glad that kmp commented this part out in dpANS3
<pfdietz>
The whole thing is so loosely specified that I couldn't test it.
<Bike>
i don't think there'd be much reason to standardize it, anyway
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<phoe>
^
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<lukego>
Anyone have experience doing serious Lisp coding within org-babel, i.e. in a *.org file with Lisp code in source code blocks? does that work okay with things like SLIME's `M-.' out of the box?
<lukego>
Is there already reader support for skipping org-mode structure and only parsing lisp source blocks?
<holycow>
i don't the specific answer but i have read posts on reddit and elsewhere that lots of people do this
<holycow>
there is an emacs extension that pulls the code out and compiles it
<holycow>
i just havent looked into it
<lukego>
yeah. actually I guess that I can just try it and see what happens :) it's already installed after all...
<holycow>
i believe it works with slime as well so iterative workflow doesn't change
<jackdaniel>
lukego: you may ask dto (he hangs out on #lispgames), he uses this mode extensively
<holycow>
gotta figure out a layout that works better for lisp and emacs though
<pve>
lukego: org-babel is really cool (I use it sometimes), but unfortunately M-. will jump to the tangled source file, instead of the org file
<lukego>
maybe I'm also being excessively whimsical and better to keep source and documentation separate. I can always include examples in the docs via org-babel without pulling in all the sources.
<pve>
but the pdf export is just incredible if you get syntax highlighting to work
<lukego>
but yeah org-babel seems to invite geeking out on :)
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<pve>
think "sitting in your armchair studying nicely highlighted printouts of your code"
<lukego>
I have a black and white printer so that reduces the technical requirements ;-)
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<pve>
still, the idea that you're writing a book, as opposed to just code appeals to me greatly
<pve>
I've always admired literate programming from afar
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<lukego>
pve: yeah I've experimented with that style and enjoyed it a lot. I think a huge win is just organizing source into sections and arranging code to be read from top to bottom.
<lukego>
then actually printing it out and reading it is a huge win too. I see totally different things on paper, even without special formatting
<lukego>
I haven't had so much "multiplier effect" payback on time spent writing long prose comments though as opposed to separate documentation.
<pve>
lukego: that's pretty much how I feel
<lukego>
I think there's a strong tradition of this in the Lisp world too, recently-ish from the CMU AI Repository that's full of programs that are pleasant to read from top to bottom, going back to the AI Lab where they had a program called "@" that was hundreds of pages of assembler code to generate program listings (and deltas when they changed one part of a large program and wanted to update the hard copy... Steel &co)
<lukego>
badasses...
<pve>
i always have trouble structuring my code, but the top to bottom thing helps me with the structuring because I can always ask myself "does this narrative make sense to another reader?"
<lukego>
I also once experimented with the style from Steele's thesis on Rabbit, where he had alternating pages of prose (left) and code (right), but that was a bit awkward for me
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<lukego>
yeah. and it's easy to test because when you're reading code it hits you when you have to understand something that hasn't been presented yet. I've tried printing and reading Linux code but I always end up trying to start from the end - where the high-level stuff is - and work my way back to the start which is random utility functions. awkward on printed page :)
<pve>
heh yep
<p_l>
lukego: hummm
<p_l>
lukego: if I had money for a tablet, I might be inspired to make a tool that would "print" code like that, with annotation ability on a tablet
<p_l>
(something like Remarkable?)
<lukego>
just reading in a PDF reader on the computer might have much of the same effect
<lukego>
I've been doing that with documentation just lately, editing docbook sources and gleefully missing lots of glaring mistakes, then reading the pdf version where they all jump out at me... so I don't think printed page or tablet is strictly needed, just to trick brain into "read this one word at a time" mode
<p_l>
lukego: I'm thinking of the tablet so that I could take it away from the computer (and editor) and sit somewhere with coffee and snacks and /think/
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<lukego>
nod
<lukego>
I haven't commuted for a long time but bus rides were always my best time for that, and printouts worked well
<holycow>
lukego: that works for you? i have to print stuff out.
<p_l>
lukego: my commutes are too short for that
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<p_l>
typically <20 minutes
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<p_l>
last time it really would have worked out involved when the main bridge I used ended up burnt down, when the time to get from home to work turned out to be the same for me in Warsaw as for someone commuting from Amsterdam to London
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<pve>
lukego: i'd be interested in knowing whether the "multiplier effect" appears when *other* people are trying to study your code
<pve>
iow does it lower the collaboration threshold?
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<splittist>
can you tangle syntactically-invalid code? could you do it on every keystroke?
<pve>
yes to syntactically invalid, not sure on every keystroke
<jmercouris>
which is in the glib.init.lisp in cl-cffi-gtk
<jmercouris>
I have copied ALL of the shared libraries into an app bundle..
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<jmercouris>
so?
<jmercouris>
no ideas :'(?
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<theseb>
I know lisp allows looping similar to for loops in other langs....however..do many lispers intentionally avoid that and do things more functional with just recursion?
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<jmercouris>
no, they don't
<jmercouris>
some tasks are suited to iterative, some to recursion
<jmercouris>
most lisp programmers use both when applicable
<jackdaniel>
theseb: in common lisp people usually use a macro loop
<jackdaniel>
most notably tail recursion *is not* guaranteed in Common Lisp (unlike scheme)
<jackdaniel>
loop is a dsl on its own terms, for some building block for your own iterating constructs you may use the operator do (or one of few libraries which provide extensibility, like iterate)
<theseb>
functional programming is becoming more fashionable....i can imagine someone wanting to be a purist and do everything in functional....Trying to imagine how you'd do the equivalent for a for loop with i from 1 to 10 with recursion
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<theseb>
if we can do that basic for loop with recursion then we can go hardcore and be nearly 100% functional to be fashionable
<theseb>
possible?
<xristos>
scheme gets you most of the way there
<xristos>
not very practical in CL
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<jackdaniel>
you may do it in CL, but that won't be, how people call it, "idiomatic" for the CL programmer
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<jmercouris>
form follows function, not the other way around
<jmercouris>
ignore fashion
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<theseb>
jmercouris: i don't know much about Haskell but i think it is 100% functional...so they'd have this exact problem we're describing
<jmercouris>
they sure might, maybe ask on #haskell
<beach>
theseb: If a person is already convinced that purely functional code is a must, then it won't be perceived as a problem.
<xristos>
theseb: if it was 100% functional it wouldn't be very useful
<Bike>
the equivalent of a for loop is very easy to do. just remember tail recursion.
<jackdaniel>
right, i.e fset (a Common Lisp library) is written in a functional style)
<jackdaniel>
s/style)/style/
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<Bike>
and you have to remember that [blathers about turing degrees for ten minutes] so of course it's _possible_, no question
<theseb>
yup....good ol' Turing completeness
<theseb>
makes everything possile
* jackdaniel
slaps theseb with a halting problem
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* theseb
had a Turing Oracle that told him to duck
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<pfdietz>
fset! I've been using that as a testbed lately.
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<rpg>
Does anyone know if there's a unifier out there that can do unification over name-structured data (e.g., JSON, plists) in addition to positionally structured data? I know there are such things for Prolog, but not CL. ("
<rpg>
("Unification" isn't the best keyword for web search.)
<rpg>
*maybe* cl-unification can do this; I'm not sure.
<pjb>
rpg: it's not difficult to write it…
<rpg>
I believe that cl-unification's tgemplate language could support this.
<phoe>
if someone has a while - I would like a review for the slides that I will be presenting tomorrow at the first post-ELS Online Lisp Meeting, mostly from an editor's point of view, if it's consistent, if there are no typos, and such
<pfdietz>
Link for that meeting? Just to help me rememnber.
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<p_l>
theseb: there are people who dislike CL:LOOP and keep to the DO family of macros, there are people who prefer ITERATE (a well known library), there are people who like LOOP and use it a lot. Common Lisp doesn't discriminate.
<Shinmera>
But /I/ do
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<phoe>
the only part of Common Lisp that discriminates is DEFMETHOD
<pfdietz>
I have an update to ITERATE I want to get integrated. But that means I need to get common-lisp.net access working, with all that 2fa.
<phoe>
pfdietz: 2FA is basically downloading an app to a smartphone and grabbing keys from it every time you log in.
<phoe>
I use andOTP since it's free software, and the 2FA is - thankfully - following open standards.
<phoe>
or there's also linux clients that use the same algorithms; there's options.
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<pfdietz>
Uh huh. Last time I tried this, that all was explained nowhere on the site. It left me thinking "github doesn't need this crap, why does this site?"
<rpg>
with respect to unification, it's not obvious to me that it contains an "apply-substitution" function that would, for example, take a template and a substitution and return a populated CL entity.
<phoe>
Yes, gitlab does a poor job at it
<dlowe>
github does support 2fa very well
<pfdietz>
Excuse me, I meant github.
<pfdietz>
Oh wait, nvm
<pfdietz>
Github doesn't require 2fa
<dlowe>
It's almost certainly a configuration setting on gitlab, set by common-lisp.net
<pfdietz>
So whatever problem 2fa is solving, github solves it without 2fa.
<alandipert>
rpg i haven't done this in CL, but i've found the general recipe for hierarchical -> positional is to walk the tree and accumulate a set of paths. the paths form the positional structure that you can feed into something
<theseb>
phoe: i don't know if you've read the TempleOS wikipedia page but the author has quite an interesting story
<theseb>
phoe: thanks for sharing
<phoe>
theseb: I've known about TempleOS for a long time, I've known about the author, too
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<rpg>
alandipert: I believe that the template lets you do that, but it doesn't seem like there's any functionality to take a template and transform it into a normal lisp value. This seems like an odd omission.
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<rpg>
alandipert: The example here seems to show a programmer doing that by hand.
<dlowe>
pfdietz: no, github is just ignoring the problem 2fa is solving
<dlowe>
I mean, it's a typical convenience/security tradeoff
<pfdietz>
All I can say is that I have not seen an impact from lack of 2fa on github.
<dlowe>
I'm sure you haven't seen an impact from password length minimums either.
<rpg>
alandipert: I believe a sensible extension would be to add to the template language an APPLY-SUBSTITUTION gf that would return populated entities.
<flip214>
common-lisp.net is set to require 2fa because that eliminates a bit of spam (users) - the simple bots don't work any more.
<phoe>
and there was a big bot problem on clnet someday
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<shka_>
hello
<phoe>
hiii
<shka_>
i am confused about the program-error
<phoe>
show it to us!
<shka_>
no, i am confused about the purpose of the program-error condition
<shka_>
namely
<phoe>
(funcall (lambda () (if 12)))
<shka_>
what is the precise situation where signaling this error is the right thing to do
<shka_>
and when not
<shka_>
for instance the above is clear example of broken syntax
<phoe>
yes, and that is when a program-error is signaled by the system
<phoe>
CLHS PROGRAM-ERROR says: "The type program-error consists of error conditions related to incorrect program syntax."
<shka_>
but what about emitting such errors when, for instance function is called with an invalid combination of arguments?
<phoe>
the syntax was correct
<phoe>
the function was called
<phoe>
so IMO program-error shouldn't apply
<phoe>
but then, what does "invalid combination of arguments" mean
<shka_>
eh, they should just call it SYNTAX-ERROR
<shka_>
phoe: for instance providing both :test and :test-not
<Bike>
actually, stuff like calling a function with too few arguments is spsecifically listed as a program-error
<phoe>
shka_: that's a simple-error in SBCL
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<phoe>
oh!
<phoe>
it's a simple-error on SBCL, ECL, CCL, CLISP
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<phoe>
but a program-error on ABCL!
<phoe>
interesting stuff
<phoe>
I can see abcl's reasoning
<shka_>
phoe: standard does not even forces any error in such case
<Bike>
it's a bit difficult since it's hard tdo imagine what a handler for a program error could do
<phoe>
shka_: yes
<shka_>
anyway, as you can see it is not exactly clear cut
<phoe>
Bike: yes, the only thing I imagine in such a case is it'd halt and catch fire
<shka_>
some would say that abcl is in the wrong
<shka_>
but i am not 100% sure about this
<phoe>
a program error basically means "the programmer f#<>ed up"
<phoe>
like, in the syntax area
<shka_>
well, he kinda did in this case, right?
<phoe>
and passing both :TEST and :TEST-NOT could be considered to be such a case
<Bike>
i don't think :test and :test-not signaling a program error would be nonconforming
<phoe>
"The :TEST-NOT keywords are not only functionally unnecessary but also problematic because it's not clear what to do when both :TEST and :TEST-NOT are provided."
<shka_>
well, yes it is UB
<Bike>
i like how there's an issue "FUNCTION-COMPOSITION" which does not include function composition
<Bike>
also "No Common Lisp implementations provide these functions" farther down
<phoe>
it's amazing
<Bike>
i've seen that kind of thing in several issues
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<_death>
note Cost of Non-Adoption
<phoe>
_death: that is amazing
<phoe>
"Several additional functions (COMPOSE, CONJOIN) were considered and rejected at the Jan 89 X3J13 meeting."
<phoe>
well x3j13 they're in alexandria now, are you proud of yourself
<shka_>
well, that is strong argument for not adopting into the standard
<_death>
I read about #, today
<phoe>
_death: which issue?
<phoe>
and did it include #,@ too?
<_death>
it was also flushed (see clhs appendix).. I read the cl-su-ai archives
<phoe>
oh! okay
<_death>
no.. #, was a relative of #.
<Bike>
wasn't it load time evaluation?
<Bike>
and i thought clisp still supported it or something
<_death>
yes
<phoe>
so the equivalent of load-time-value?
<_death>
phoe: not exactly
<_death>
for example '(1 2 #,foo)
<_death>
it had "confusing" semantics wrt interpretation/compilation.. there was also a lot of discussion about how it suffered from the usual #./#+/#- issues
<_death>
check cl-su-ai for the juicy details ;)
<_death>
I think it did lead to defining load-time-value though
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<_death>
which had relatives in interlisp
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<jackdaniel>
minion has died
<jackdaniel>
and he left a note
<Bike>
thus always to tyrants
<jackdaniel>
"remember me fondly, fcukers"
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<aeth>
I thought that the Unix-acceptable way to censor the f word is fsck?
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<jackdaniel>
minion: why not unix?
<minion>
i said so
<phoe>
well
<phoe>
a convincing argument
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<srandon111>
guys is there something similar to the scapy python module for lisp?
<srandon111>
it is a packet crafting library based on libpcap