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<bitmapper>
ecl got a new release a couple of days ago?
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<ralt>
couple of weeks ago now, but yes
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<White_Flame>
When the name of a macro is mistyped, usually the reported error is related to the parameters not evaluating properly, instead of a function name not found. Is this behavior required by the spec?
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<pjb>
White_Flame: no, error messages are not specified.
<pjb>
White_Flame: but (foo a b c) is interpreted by default as a function call, when foo is not a special operator or a macro. There's no otherway to interpret it!
<White_Flame>
I speciificall mean which error situation is reached first
<pjb>
White_Flame: therefore a b and c will be interpreted as expressions. If they're ill-formed, you get an error.
<pjb>
So most often, the error situation reached first is that.
<White_Flame>
right, but could it check for FOO being a validly callable function before attempting to evaluate the arguments?
<pjb>
No, it could not. More precisely, it doesn't have to: it is not specified if the function is evaluated before the arguments.
<White_Flame>
and throw an error before the arguments have a chance to do so?
<pjb>
But also possible, an error message about undefined function foo.
<pjb>
left to right evaluation only applies to arguments.
<White_Flame>
argh, yeah taht would be a confounding example
<pjb>
(foo (defun foo (x y) (list x x y y)) 42) #| --> (foo foo 42 42) |# but (foo 42) is also possible (the old foo).
<White_Flame>
a warning would suffice for debug assistance, but yeah that's a valid case where the function doesn't exist before the arguments are evaluated
<pjb>
White_Flame: happily, lisp is sexp-based and provides you with READ, so you can easily write your own code analyser to signal such problems.
<pjb>
Go ahead, write tools!
<White_Flame>
well, I'm talking about basic REPL use
<White_Flame>
although similar situations occur for source code files on occasion
<pjb>
Me too.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Fare>
beach: bonjour!
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<jeosol>
Fare: you are here? been a while
<jeosol>
Good morning beach!
<Fare>
jeosol, occasionally. But I don't program new stuff in CL anymore. I'm a Gerbil Schemer, these days.
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<Fare>
I still help maintain the same old CL systems, though.
<jeosol>
Yeah, I remember who told me that
<Fare>
But I'm eager to pass the baton on these.
<jeosol>
So I figured you came back, bu not
<Fare>
Even on ASDF, I let Robert do things I would have redone differently if still the maintainer.
<jeosol>
So how has your experience with Gerbil been, remember you said something it not having CLOS, not sure it was you
<Fare>
Yeah, its object system has many of the features of CLOS, but not all
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<Fare>
I'm sometimes missing on method combinations, for instance, though it's easy enough to work around with conventions or macros.
<jeosol>
on the asdf, I still have to go do that POIU/graph dependency thing we chatted about. I'd find sometime after I move
<jeosol>
I did start to look at the codes though
<Fare>
It should not be *that* hard.
<Fare>
POIU passes its tests, it just issues a lot warnings, because it's confused by how ASDF now correctly manages multiple phases in one session.
<jeosol>
hahaha, I am not at your level ...
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<Fare>
yeah... you know the story about the expert and the screw.
<jeosol>
I will put some time to it.
<jeosol>
lol.
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<jeosol>
not quite, but i'd look it up.
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<jeosol>
Using numerous suggestions here, from you, and Rob, the code was stable, and I just left it as it and focused on other things for now. I use a corefile to reduce load time and all.
<markasoftware>
i like heisig's idea. no-defun-allowed, I don't see :error listed as a slot option on CLOS defclass
<no-defun-allowed>
Oops, I meant :initform, not :error
<markasoftware>
ah ok lol
<no-defun-allowed>
...which is precisely heisig's idea.
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<markasoftware>
well yes when typed correctly it is
<markasoftware>
thank yo uboth
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<aeth>
alternatively, you could MOP up a :required? or :requiredp or :required-p
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<aeth>
which method(s) to override is an exercise for the reader
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<White_Flame>
aeth: verbing a noun into a pun. I've not seen that before (though it's likely quite old) but I like it
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<White_Flame>
*I've not seen that particular punning of MOP before, but I like it
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<flip214>
aeth: it would be awesome if keyword arguments could be T just by putting the keyword in the argument list, like with most unix shell commands
<White_Flame>
it would be ambiguous, just like with most unix shell commands
<beach>
That would create lots of interesting ambiguities.
<White_Flame>
I agree in concept that there should be a non-arg way of representing it, but there isn't and the T is simply more regular and clear
<cgay>
In Dylan we call that `required-init-keyword:`
<White_Flame>
shell commands have --foo vs -foo in some programs, but that's wildly inconsistent as well
<White_Flame>
and does windows still do /foo ?
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<beach>
cgay: Wouldn't that make it hard to use the trick that is often used in Common Lisp, which is that an intermediate function that doesn't care about some keyword arguments, just APPPLYs the callee to the &REST arguments?
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<cgay>
I was responding to "<markasoftware> Can I make a CLOS initarg mandatory?"
<beach>
Oh, I see. Sorry!
<Grue`>
White_Flame: it does, DOS command flags were designed to be typed without spaces, for example "xcopy/e/i/h/r/y/c/k"
<White_Flame>
ew, I never knew that, and I lived through DOS
<aeth>
White_Flame: I only seem to pun CLOS things, e.g. CLOSify
<White_Flame>
well, that's just verbing a noun, not making an english pun
<Grue`>
regarding mandatory initargs, simply omitting the initform will cause an error the first time the slot is accessed. and this access can be forced in initialize-instance :after
<Grue`>
although the initform can be inherited, I guess
<aeth>
White_Flame, flip214: I think you might be able to use the MOP to create an API like :flags '(:foo :bar :baz :quux)
<aeth>
Of course, :flags '(:required-p) is a loss over :required-p t, but you could probably have enough of them
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<p_l>
White_Flame: unix uses - because + was too hard to hit and / was taken by directory separator, DOS and Windows use / because of CP/M (and through CP/M, Digital's OSes), and because of that they had to use \ for directories when they ported the idea from Unix
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<p_l>
(which nicely dovetails into why I like CL path apis :D)
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<aeth>
Would a Lisp OS use : for paths? Or?
<p_l>
aeth: MIT-derived Lisp Machines used Multics style ">" as path separator
<no-defun-allowed>
Where we're going, we don't need paths^W^W^W^W^W^W^WJust a list of directory names? Why not '("foo" "bar" "baz")?
<aeth>
why not a flat filesystem? :-p
<no-defun-allowed>
That wasn't very 🆑🅾︎🆘 of you
<p_l>
no-defun-allowed: writing a quoted list is more annoying than special syntax for paths, this is lisp which means we got the power to make things easier through non-hairy means
<no-defun-allowed>
p_l: I'm kidding; drop the quote at least? :)
<p_l>
no-defun-allowed: and doublequotes adn... :P
<p_l>
that said, LispM systems used foreign path syntax for foreign hosts
<p_l>
HOSTNAME:<host-specific-syntax>
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<Fare>
aeth: : is used for the logical or physical "host"
<Fare>
CL pathnames are a horrible mess
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<Fare>
as are files in general
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<cgay>
Amen, brother.
<cgay>
p_l: for that to work the machine type would've had to be in the namespace system i think. was that in fact the case? i can't remember.
<cgay>
or was there enough info in the <host-specific-syntax> by itself perhaps.
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<p_l>
cgay: partially - different path syntax also corresponded to different remote FS protocols
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<p_l>
But yes, namespace system had system type as a standard attribute
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<p_l>
At least on symbolics, I'm less versed with CADR, Lambda and TI
<cgay>
Better memory than I...
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<Fare>
on Genera you had to register the host in the machine's namespace before you could use it, indeed.
<Fare>
I don't know whether or how you could delegate the namespace service. I believe you could bootstrap access to a server that would thereafter fulfill further namespace queries
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<Fare>
the most modern protocol it supported was only NFS 2.
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<Fare>
Which makes it interesting to setup a server for it on Nix
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<p_l>
Fare: I guess you had only one Genera running at a time, right?
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<p_l>
normal network used a namespace server which every other machine delegated to
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<p_l>
I think you had to configure the system with the network name of the namespace server then save that as boot image, and that worked as having enough "proto-namespace" to bring up the rest from namespace server
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<p_l>
fun bit about CL pathnames - if one was willing to implement some more windows-specific code in I/O part of a Lisp implementation, all pathname components in CL pathname would get represented
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<phoe>
do you mean NTFS-specific stuff?
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<White_Flame>
likely \\FOO\ for the host portion, and FOO: for the device portion
<Fare>
p_l, correct, I only ever had one Genera at a time, but I could see that you could bootstrap your namespace to define a namespace server. Kind of like there are bootstrap mechanisms for DNS.
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<White_Flame>
does ntfs do automatic file versioning though?
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<White_Flame>
it obviously has its multiple data streams or whatever they're called per file, but I don't recall versioning specifically
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<p_l>
White_Flame: there's versioning support in NT API and ways to implement it over NTFS and not only
<White_Flame>
so not an actual filesystem feature?
<White_Flame>
but yeah, would at least map CL files -> OS file api
<p_l>
White_Flame: it's part of OS API, but details on implementation are left to drivers. There's feature that runs over NTFS to implement it (check "previous versions" tab in file properties) and there's support for CIFS to do it, which is implemented on Samba for example
<p_l>
NT pathnames "kind of" lost the device part, as formally it's \\HOST\path\to\object, but there's a registry key of symbolic aliases for DOS-style device names
<p_l>
so "C:" doesn't exist once you pass from winapi to NT, it's an alias for real path
<White_Flame>
yeah, and becomes more like the Amiga ;)
<p_l>
didn't see any Amiga relationship there. Would be closer to Sun Spring, but of course the real source for pretty much everything in NT core is VMS
<p_l>
including NTFS
<White_Flame>
the amiga let you define any path as any NAME: which are global aliases, and included some standard ones like LIB:
<White_Flame>
so you could move standard locations to different drives quite easily
<p_l>
White_Flame: ah, VMS had similar setup though it was more similar to using environment variables
<White_Flame>
or create different machine contexts by moving to new mappings
<p_l>
in this case, it's more to ease the support for DOS-derived code etc.
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<c_nix>
is 2020 going to be a year of LISP?
<c_nix>
:P
<phoe>
c_nix: sure, just like 2019
<no-defun-allowed>
What I learnt in physics class is that things remain at rest unless external forces affect them.
<c_nix>
that explains why I see greenskinned multieyed elephants waving flags everywhere
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<no-defun-allowed>
Other than that, everything went over my head, but you probably should consider making it so if you want a year of Lisp.
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<beach>
Lets hope that 2020 is NOT going to be the year of "LISP", since that would represent a step backward of a few decades. I vote for it to be the year of Common Lisp instead.
<no-defun-allowed>
That's a good point. I don't know if I have any left over teletypes.
<beach>
Otherwise, we would all have to write our programs in all capital letters and with no indentation.
<beach>
c_nix: You seem to be new here. If you don't already know Common Lisp, I recommend you learn it, whether it becomes the language of this year or not.
<c_nix>
im not unfamiliar with lisp
<beach>
Great!
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<tichun>
Hi, wanted to study MIT SICP book that uses Scheme, but the software is not available on Raspberry Pi, hence the question: can scheme be replaced by sbcl/clisp/gcl?
<Shinmera>
No
<tichun>
Thanks
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<phoe>
tichun: you can do the SICP exercises in Common Lisp, but note it's a different dialect of Lisp, and therefore some (if not most) of the exercises will need a little bit of adaptation
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<no-defun-allowed>
You may just have to compile it (which may be a "just have to" thing, I haven't tried that before) which should take much less than the 24 hours in that post on a newer Pi.
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<flip214>
debian has a package mit-scheme, that exists also for the ARM architectures and so for the Rpi.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Raspbian does its own thing and doesn't use Debian packages, though.
<flip214>
raspbian is a debian derivate too, I just "moved over" to debian packages
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<flip214>
my RPI3 (amd64, debian) offers a chezscheme package
<flip214>
but doing the exercises in CL is very valueable! I did them in CL as well.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Alright, I recall someone telling me to not just "move over" to Debian packages, but if it works...
<flip214>
mit-scheme is x86 only
<flip214>
no-defun-allowed: which rpi do you have? 2, 3, 4?
<no-defun-allowed>
2
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<flip214>
yeah, that's where I switched from raspbian over... on the 3 I had a 64bit suse first
<flip214>
no-defun-allowed: if you want a clean install, do a debootstrap on some other machine for the armel architecture, copy the boot things over, and so on... but that's quite some more effort
<flip214>
or is rpi2 armhf?
<no-defun-allowed>
hf = hardware float, right?
<no-defun-allowed>
I think it is armhf.
<p_l>
Rpi3 can run hard float
<p_l>
not sure about 2
<p_l>
(4 can, as well)
<p_l>
hmm
<p_l>
ahh, yes, all Pi support hard float but no linux distro compiles for 32bit hard float
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<no-defun-allowed>
So far I haven't heard of any 64-bit Raspbian images (for newer Pis), which is quite a let down for running Lisp programs.
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<p_l>
Raspbian is keeping direct compatibility with Rpi1 and Rpi2, thus no 64bit
<p_l>
but you can get 64 bit ubuntu image
<flip214>
no-defun-allowed: I made myself a debootstrap image and put that on an sdcard
<flip214>
using debian testing/unstable
<no-defun-allowed>
Oh, there are as of last November. I still can't use them of course, but that's still cool.
<Shinmera>
archlinux arm has images for hard float arms and 64bit arm.
<TMA>
#lispcafe
<Shinmera>
But yes, o/t
<flip214>
TMA: how did you know I'm drinking coffee?
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<TMA>
flip214: no sane person does, hence exceedingly common :)
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<flip214>
sad but mostly true, though I believe it's more correlation than causation
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<kmeow>
are you guys telling me that 32 bit ARMs don't have FPUs
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<kmeow>
good thing they can hardware execute jvm bytecode I guess
<White_Flame>
linux is too scared to require FPUs for all of them, so it's a software support issue
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<White_Flame>
really cheap ARMs like on wifi routers don't have hf
<White_Flame>
(or at least didn't, last time I intersected that topic)
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<kmeow>
WE DO NOT BREAK NETGEAR! seriously
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<p_l>
kmeow: it's not a matter of not having FPU, it's a matter of linux ARM ABI starting out in ancient times on hw that makes cheapest home router look like supercomputer
<p_l>
soft-float compatible API worked on systems with FPU and those without
<p_l>
"armhf" ABI is a misnomer as it's actually dependant on presence of vector floating unit, iirc
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<Bike>
oh i just saw you read my compiler macrolet snippet yesterday, phoe
<Bike>
for the record, i think compiler-let probably shouldn't be kept around, the idea seemed to be that it did a dynamic binding within the compiler, but that's just... confusing for multiple reasons
<phoe>
Bike: yes
<Bike>
using symbol macrolet makes more sense, although having to macroexpand isn't quite as convenient as just writing a variable
<Bike>
you could write a (compiler-variable x env) macro, i guess
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<marcoxa`>
phoe I wrote the portability layer inside CLAST many years ago. It works. And the real solution is, in any case, to have the implementors provide the proper interfaces. And, above all, not changing them (as one implmentation did).
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<phoe>
marcoxa`: OK
<marcoxa`>
Speaking of which... let me check the latest ABCL.
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<phoe>
that was my concern; the lib I linked seems to support ABCL
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<rpg>
On SBCL, what's the right element type for a MAKE-STRING-OUTPUT-STREAM for UTF-8? On ACL I was using (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8), but that seems to be wrong for SBCL.
<phoe>
rpg: character?
<rpg>
phoe: Thanks, that seems to be right.
<rpg>
Related question (HTTP client-ing): is there some way to make Drakma print out its full HTTP transmission for debugging purposes?
<travv0>
you were using (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) for UTF-8?
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<phoe>
rpg: just headers, AFAIK.
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<theseb>
Are these the only 2 differences between macros and regular functions?..... 1. macros receive *unevaluated arguments* while regular functions get evaluated versions......and... 2. macros are evaluated *twice* ?
<Bike>
no, because 2 is you misunderstanding something.
<theseb>
Bike: i thought 1st eval makes the expanded source....then 2nd eval evaluates it along with rest of lisp code in program no?
<Bike>
No.
<theseb>
Bike: is #1 correct?
<Bike>
First, the macroexpansion function is called. It gets the macro form as an argument and returns the expanded form. For example if you write (and x y), the macroexpander gets the form (and x y), and returns something like (if x (and y)).
<Bike>
Then the (if x (and y)) is compiled/evaluated instead of the original (and x y).
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<theseb>
Bike: maybe i didn't communicate what i meant well...to use your example....."(and x y) ==> (if x (and y))" is the 1st eval and then when executing the program you do the second eval on "(if x (and y))"
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<Bike>
describing that as "macros are evaluated twice" is not great, since they're two completely different operations.
<theseb>
Bike: oh..i think i see what you mean....
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<phoe>
the "first eval" that you mention actually has a name
<phoe>
it's called macroexpansion
<theseb>
Bike: once you do the 1st eval (macroexpansion)....the macros is gone and so it isn't really correct to say that you then evaluate the "macro" again
<beach>
theseb: The other problem with your description is that macro functions are typically called at compile time, so that no macro expansion is done when the program is executing.
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<beach>
phoe: Well, it is an evaluation. It is just that the form happens to be a macro call, so the result of the evaluation is macro-expansion.
<theseb>
beach: i think that is correct for a "real" lisp.....i'm implementing an interpreter so i guess everything sort of seems to happen at same time w/o a compilation phase beforehand
<beach>
theseb: I see. But it is very confusing (at least to me) that you ask questions about how Common Lisp is doing it, and then, you tell us what your own Lisp is doing.
<beach>
theseb: So if your Lisp is a Common Lisp implementation, there are things it must do, but if it is not, you can do whatever you like.
<beach>
theseb: So do you plan for it to be an implementation of Common Lisp?
<Bike>
that said, even if you are just implementing a toy lisp you should go at least as far as having a compiler
<pjb>
theseb: macros can be evaluated more or less than twice! They are evaluated at least once.
<pjb>
theseb: note that even if you only have a CL interpreter, you can use COMPILE (or COMPILE-FILE) to perform minimal compilation, which involves expanding the macros once for all.
<beach>
pjb: Do you mean "expanded" rather than "evaluated"?
<pjb>
Yes.
<theseb>
beach: it will be similar to CL...don't know that it will be precisely equivalent
<pjb>
expansion of macros consists in evaluating (funcall (macro-function 'moo) '(moo …) the-environment)
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<theseb>
beach: sorry..i thought the stuff i was asking was basically the same for all lisps...guess i was wrong
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<Bike>
lisp isn't really a well defined category.
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<Bike>
or, you know, it's more like a family resemblance than a set of commonalities.
<beach>
theseb: What Bike says. There is no agreement on what makes a language "a Lisp".
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<theseb>
Bike: oh...i have a thought about that...because it is so easy to make trivial changes to names of funcs and so forth....it seems at least superficially it would be possible for me to make a thin layer that made my lisp interpreter act like CL one day and then Scheme the next! ;)
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<Bike>
it's more complicated than function names.
<theseb>
Bike: everyone can have their own custom lang
<Bike>
for example, in scheme, macroexpansion does not work like how i described.
<theseb>
Bike: yea...for real work the differences matter
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<theseb>
it uses something called hygiene
<theseb>
i need to learn about that
<Bike>
racket has some stuff about different languages in the same system. i don't know much about it. i don't think it goes as far as implementing common lisp.
<Bike>
common lisp and scheme are both complicated languages. implementing either is not something you can half-ass, let alone both.
<theseb>
yea
<jackdaniel>
theseb: if you are interested in analysis of different decisions you can make when impelemnting lisp you may read a book "Lisp in Small Pieces"