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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<jeosol>
Good morning everyone
<no-defun-allowed>
jeosol: Here, you dropped a !
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<jeosol>
no-defun-allowed: I didn't get that
<jeosol>
I get it
<jeosol>
Good morning everyone!
<no-defun-allowed>
DavdL: No, apparently not. I did message someone in control, and they sounded like they were going to fix it, but nothing happened evidently. When in doubt, blame timezones.
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<beach>
Hello jeosol.
<no-defun-allowed>
(Then there was an argument about having to throw money at the programmers to get anything fixed, which also could have distracted them. Maybe I will have to ask again.)
<jeosol>
Hi beach. Been a while
<jeosol>
I wanted to see if anyone here is doing machine-learning type work with CL. I want to replicate an example using CL(SBCL) with jupyter notebook but the setups appear complicated and I gotten some error.
<jeosol>
I recently spent some hours replicating an example (linear regression) from a 2019 python book and ran into version problems, deprecated keywords, arguments, etc. It was a nightmare, just to run an example in a book that's recent.
<jeosol>
I am not trying to rant against python, it has it merits and have used it fairly, but I wonder how much is spent, trying to sort this type of things out.
<jeosol>
if reached out to Mike Maul who appears to be maintaining CLML and he also has plans to extend the toolkit to use connectionist methods in the CLML library
<pjb>
jeosol: python is not one language, but a family of languages, numbered, from 1.0 to 3.8.2 and increasing!
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<jeosol>
hahah. Ok, that's true. And the massive divide between 2 and 3. Point taken
<jeosol>
That will help next time, and not expect same type of stability on the CL side.
<jeosol>
Usually, you have to hunt down the specific version for things to work.
<pjb>
exactly. Or be prepared to update the code.
<jeosol>
damn. I thought the issue is not that severe.
<jeosol>
I worked a project with some colleagues last here, the guy doing the backend said the code needs 3.6, and another machine for testing had 3.7.
<jeosol>
it makes sense now to have the different family of language mindset.
<LdBeth>
DavdL: identify via NickServ not working?
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<phoe>
FYI, I can't see any posts for DavdL myself.
<beach>
phoe: It's a known problem, apparently.
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<phoe>
beach: yep
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<Xach>
darn it, postmodern is broken today.
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<phoe>
Xach: oh!
<phoe>
might be the last commits that sabrac has pushed to it
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<phoe>
well
<phoe>
I've just discovered a good reason why I actually want to rewrite Kent's v18 conditions using DEFCLASS
<phoe>
I have no multiple inheritance with DEFSTRUCT!
<phoe>
but - restarts first
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<Bike>
does it use defstruct for conditions too?
<phoe>
yes
<Bike>
clasp uses a descendent of kent's code but the conditions were classes when we got it from ECL
<phoe>
correct
<phoe>
it's a CLtL1 condition system and CLtL1 did not even have defclass
<Bike>
(restart was still a defstruct, but i changed that a few weeks ago)
<Bike>
oh.
<Bike>
condition system without multiple inheritance sounds annoying.
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<phoe>
it certainly did
<phoe>
I'll gut out the condition internals and use defclass instead - that solves all of my problems with defstruct
<phoe>
in the worst case, I'll write a paragraph or two about the basics of DEFSTRUCT
<theseb>
When you set a variable to a value, is that added to the current environment or is a NEW environment created? I believe you only get NEW environments when you call a function or something like that?
<phoe>
theseb: depends
<phoe>
in general, a variable must already exist *before* you set any new value to it
<Bike>
"setting" means changing an existing binding. implementations will sometimes implicitly add a binding first, but it's generally to the same environment.
<phoe>
anything otherwise is undefined behaviour
<phoe>
implementations will permit stuff like (setq foo 42) but that's formally UB and also damn dirty code anyway.
<phoe>
the important question is: *which* variable are you trying a set? have you declared it previously?
<phoe>
;; sigh, I might want to write an article about variables in Lisp someday
<theseb>
phoe: I'm actually writing a little lisp and was planning to just have a "define" command that created new variables as well as reset existing ones
<theseb>
phoe: Maybe I'm nieve but it seems easier to not sweat the distinction?
<theseb>
naive*
<theseb>
phoe: why not just have one "define" func that does both?
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<beach>
theseb: That kind of thing is very error prone, which is why Common Lisp has different operators for creating and assigning to variables.
<theseb>
phoe: actually....regardless...I'm still not clear WHEN a lisp actually makes a new environment level
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<beach>
theseb: There is a distinction between global environments, lexical environments created by the compiler, and local run-time environments created by function enclosures.
<Bike>
theseb: Say you have (define FOO 4) (define FO0 5). You've defind two variables instead of defining one and then setting it. Having a separate (set FO0 5) could find the variable hasn't been defined and signal an error instead.
<Bike>
theseb: generally you make a new environment when you enter a lexical scope, like by entering a function or LET body.
<theseb>
Bike: do even simple func invocations like (+ 3 4) need a new env level to hold the arg values? i'm thinking yes
<beach>
theseb: Yes, that's what he said, entering a function.
<theseb>
ok
<beach>
Like + in this case.
<theseb>
thanks..i get it now
<phoe>
theseb: when I was implementing a tiny lisp, I used the paper Roots of Lisp
<phoe>
it has the concept of environments
<beach>
theseb: and (let ((<var> <form>)) <body>) is essentially equivalent to a function call, like ((lambda (<var>) <body>) <form>)
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<phoe>
another small enlightenment about the restart system!
<beach>
What's that?
<phoe>
with-condition-restarts accepts a list of restarts, right?
<phoe>
if the implementation does restarts via clusters - as it should - then it is able to pass (car *restart-clusters*) to it to associate all recently bound restarts (the last cluster) with a given condition
<phoe>
that's a very nice thing!
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<theseb>
beach: make sense
<theseb>
phoe: yea i love that paper
<theseb>
phoe: i think a simple lisp is a nice way to understand even languages like python...some say python is like a lisp w/o parens
<theseb>
loosely speaking
<travv0>
word on the street is that python is an "acceptable lisp"
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<beach>
Yeah, for some reason, lots of people who invent new languages want to categorize them as "a Lisp". I don't understand why since Lisp is not very popular, and if they want Lisp they can just use Common Lisp.
<_death>
python is an acceptable lisp compiler
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<theseb>
beach: I don't know the innards of the C implementation of Python but it would be very interesting to me if they basically created a sort of proto-lisp in C to do it right
<_death>
python is written in lisp
<theseb>
beach: to answer your question....it seems advisable and less error prone in language design to first create a Turing complete tiny lisp and then build the rest of your language from that core....but what do i know
<theseb>
_death: yes...common lisp even
<theseb>
_death: actually python has been implemented in many langs
<phoe>
;; _death: means the common lisp compiler named Python, which has nothing to do with the whitespace-indented programming language
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<theseb>
_death: but I wonder if under the hood they all had to implement some kind of crude lisp we don't know about
<_death>
the "whitespace-indented programming language" is off topic
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<Bike>
also lisps have been written in C many times. imagining one in python is not necessary
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<beach>
theseb: Actually, when it comes to handling environments, most languages do it roughly the same way. There are not many alternatives really.
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<beach>
So if handling environments the same way that Lisp does is a sufficient criterion for calling the language "a Lisp", then there are lots of them out there.
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<theseb>
I was surprised to read that Lisp isn't really based on lambda calculus....Yes McCarthy used the keyword "lambda" in his language but he says he didn't really understand lambda calculus at the beginning
<theseb>
So that sort of bugged me because it would have been elegant to me if Lisp could be understood as an extension of lambda cal
<Bike>
lambda calculus is usually expressed in terms of renaming, rather than environments per se.
<theseb>
is that right?
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<beach>
Renaming and outermost evaluation, a.k.a. "lazy" evaluation.
<beach>
theseb: If Lisp had been done that way, it would have been very slow.
<theseb>
Bike: yes you are right...lambda calculus has no concept of an environment
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<Bike>
i mean, renaming versus environments doesn't affect semantics so much (unlike evaluation order)
<theseb>
Bike: Did McCarthy invent the concept of an environment? if so that would be quite impressive
<Bike>
beats me.
<theseb>
imagine inventing a whole new way of doing languages
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<phoe>
eh, that's already deeply theoretical
<theseb>
phoe: huh? is that bad?
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<phoe>
not necessarily
<phoe>
;; just remember to keep something that holds you to the ground while theorizing
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<phoe>
well
<phoe>
working on kmp's code is mostly a pleasure
<phoe>
mostly when one realizes that a lot of his code can be simplified via modern wonders such as print-unreadable-object or destructuring-bind
<Bike>
yeah, clasp had that unique-id thing up until like last month when i noticed i should get rid of it
<phoe>
that was one of the first things I threw out
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<phoe>
oh, by the way - if you have clasp installed, could you check if trivial-custom-debugger works there? I assumed that it should work the same as in ECL
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<Bike>
your repo? i'm rebuilding right now, but i'll check in a few minutes
<phoe>
yes, my repo
<Bike>
so this is basically invoke-debugger-hook the library?
<phoe>
yes
<phoe>
since literally everyone has it and literally everyone does it differently
<phoe>
business as usual in the Lisp world™
<Bike>
i assume you just pulled this from swank.
<phoe>
Bike: not all of it
<phoe>
I had to work on clisp a little bit to hammer it into shape and I dug into ACL and LW on my own to find their hooks
<phoe>
the LW solution in swank works only if you are not using their CAPI frontend
<Bike>
hrm. well, in any case i'd be surprised if it didn't work, but i'll check anyway
<phoe>
which is because the LW code in swank is weird and for whatever reason it seems to hook into GUI-related code in order to display SLDB
<phoe>
I found a lower-level solution and opened a slime issue with details.
<phoe>
Bike: thanks a million
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<phoe>
okay
<phoe>
the fun thing about the condition system is that there's already piles of code for testing it
<phoe>
I just need to gut ANSI-TEST out and run these against the kmp code that I work on
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<Bike>
phoe: the readme example works identically in clasp.
<phoe>
Bike: <3
<phoe>
perfect, thank you
<Bike>
no problemo
<phoe>
we have therefore successfully enslaved all standard debuggers in all alive Lisp implementations I'm aware of
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<phoe>
hm, except SICL
<Bike>
i don't think scil has a debugger, let alone invoke-debugger-hook.
<[rg]>
ok, are all elements in those list are "pointers"
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<jackdaniel>
minion: tell [rg] about gentle
<minion>
[rg]: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
<Bike>
this is what i meant by reference frame.
<Bike>
lisp does not have a concept of pointers. pointers might come up in the implementation, though.
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<phoe>
Is thre a format control will print all of its arguments?
<phoe>
I want something that will allow me to print arbitrary args, from 0 to N.
<Xach>
yes. it took the 2 from the arg list as though i had written ~2@{...}
<Xach>
and that means iterate twice.
<Bike>
v is explained just above figure 22-6 in the page specbot came up with.
<Bike>
"In place of a prefix parameter to a directive, V (or v) can be used." and so on
<phoe>
oooooooh
<Xach>
i like to use lowercase v and uppercase format letters to distinguish them
<phoe>
woah
<jackdaniel>
format control strings look like obj-apl++
<jackdaniel>
and are equally readable ,)
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<antaoiseach>
Whoa... quite a lot of folks in here. Good to see so many Lispers!
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<phoe>
antaoiseach: did you expect a cemetery?
<phoe>
I mean, it's nothing strange, given how some people say that Lisp is Dead™
<theseb>
( (lambda (a b) (car '(a b))) 8 9 ) <--- Why does this return 'a' instead of 8?
<phoe>
you quoted the cons
<phoe>
that's why it's passed as a literal
<theseb>
if do (car (8 9)) it crashes
<phoe>
yes
<antaoiseach>
phoe: *Groan*... why do I get comp.lang.lisp vibes?
<phoe>
because (8 9) is not a good function call
<theseb>
phoe: how fix?
<phoe>
antaoiseach: well, this place has fewer spammers
<antaoiseach>
Hah
<phoe>
and Naggum is also not around anymore
<antaoiseach>
Yeah, kinda miss his rants
<phoe>
theseb: ((lambda (a b) (car (cons a b))) 8 9)
<theseb>
oh my
<phoe>
antaoiseach: I don't. I wasn't around when he ranted, but I read lots of his mail
<theseb>
phoe: ok thanks
<Aurora_v_kosmose>
( (lambda (a b) (car (list a b))) 8 9 )
<phoe>
he was as much of a genius as he was an asshole, and I, personally, am thankful that most of the pearls from his mails have already been extracted and implemented elsewhere
<phoe>
nowadays it's rare when someone *really* needs to go cesspool diving into the archives of comp.lang.lisp.naggum
<antaoiseach>
((lambda (a b) (car `(,a ,b))) 8 9) should work too
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<Bike>
really advanced programmers might do ((lambda (a b) a) 8 9)
<antaoiseach>
phoe: Hmmm... he did seem to have some mental issues for sure, but it's fine by me... I enjoyed it at times! :D
<phoe>
Bike: that causes stylewarnings to occur though
<Bike>
advanced programmers know they're always in style
<phoe>
antaoiseach: `(,a ,b) is not a cons
<antaoiseach>
Bike: Hahaha
<antaoiseach>
phoe: yes, but OP just wanted the first element right?
<Aurora_v_kosmose>
lol
<phoe>
antaoiseach: oh I'm blind
<phoe>
that wasn't a cons, that was a two element list
<phoe>
yes, you are correct
<antaoiseach>
no worries!
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<antaoiseach>
btw, is this for all Lisp "dialects" or only for CL? first time in here...
<phoe>
Common Lisp
<Aurora_v_kosmose>
It works for Elisp too
<phoe>
##lisp is for general lisp, #emacs is for elisp, #lispcafe is for offtopic stuff
<phoe>
#clschool for newbies, #scheme for conspirators, #clojure for Java programmers, etc..
<antaoiseach>
phoe: Oh, nice!
<antaoiseach>
phoe: Hahaha - that dig at Clojure... oh man!
<phoe>
antaoiseach: just playing towards your c.l.l vibes now
<antaoiseach>
hahaha
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<alandipert>
i made a simple website for JACL and also posted code in case anyone is interested: https://tailrecursion.com/JACL/
* alandipert
is excited about ELS
<phoe>
alandipert: posted on Reddit, thank you for flying phoe airlines
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<phoe>
will you consider eventually putting it on Quicklisp?
<alandipert>
my inclination is no but for reasons i haven't fully convinced myself of
<Aurora_v_kosmose>
So long as it's referenced on Cliki it's fine.
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<alandipert>
even once it's usable jacl's capabilities are severely limited compared to other CLs, so i want to be thoughtful about how to link jacl to the wider ecosystem
<alandipert>
otoh, it's MIT licensed, so if anyone else wanted to run with it in that direction i couldn't stop them :-)
<alandipert>
phoe are you going for different semantics, or is this for pedagogical purposes?
<phoe>
alandipert: pure pedagogical purpose
<phoe>
I am reworking kmp's original CLCS implementation right now
<phoe>
cleaning it up and uplifting it from CLtL1 code into ANSI CL code
<phoe>
already got the restarts done and like 40% of conditions; remaining is 60% of conditions/handlers and the debugger
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<alandipert>
phoe that's awesome, i look forward to it. re: your earlier q. if i were you i'd try to focus on implementing exactly what's important to demonstrate and as little else as possible, a la Closette
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<phoe>
alandipert: I was thinking of that, but that would mean that I skip things like condition-restart association which are not strictly necessary but a) nice to have, b) standard
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<phoe>
I think it's doable to implement the full condition system while keeping it pedagogically viable
<alandipert>
very cool. well i'm excited to check it out, i would love to have a deep understanding of that stuff
<phoe>
alandipert: I have a mostly-ready WIP if you feel like giving it a review.
<phoe>
it's mostly ready until the "Why not?" chapter
* alandipert
will read... eventually
<phoe>
which is a giant TODO that waits while I'm yak shaving a portable implementation of condition system
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<TwoNotes>
The LMDB package from quicklisp gets an "Unhandled memory fault at #x0" as soon as I do a PUT. Are there any other LMDB wrappers? Or is this still being maintained?
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<TwoNotes>
I need a fast kay-value store from Lisp
<TwoNotes>
Looking at (ql:system-apropos "sql") I see just about all of them are quite old
<Xach>
2017 is not so distant as to mean unmaintained!
<Xach>
old does not mean that it does not work well automatically
<TwoNotes>
Even the latest open issue for antimer/lmdb is form 2017
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<p_l>
TwoNotes: a lot of lisp code is very stable
<TwoNotes>
Still, the source code is only 600 lines - I supposed I could dig into it. But I hate debugging someone else's code when I am trying to get something done.
<p_l>
unless the external interface changes then usually there's no need to update
<TwoNotes>
It might be that the underlying liblmdb has changed in some inc,ompatible way
<Xach>
I use postmodern a lot but I don't know if it fits your need for a fast key-value store.
<phoe>
TwoNotes: I was about to suggest postgres
<phoe>
;; it's a NoSQL database with its binary JSON support
<TwoNotes>
phoe as far as I know, postgres is a SQL database. Like MariahDB
<Xach>
Out of curiosity, what will you make with a fast key-value store?
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<TwoNotes>
It is a backing store form some natural language processing. The data is a bunch of Merkle trees representing parses of text into b-trees.
<TwoNotes>
I am going to poke at this library a bit more though - perhaps I am using it wrong
<TwoNotes>
It never actually creates the disk files, which is suspicous
<Xach>
TwoNotes: i tried the example code and it worked ok for me.
<TwoNotes>
Aha
<Xach>
not an endorsement, but it did make some progress
<TwoNotes>
It may be I passed the wrong sort of pathname. I had not wrapped it in that system-relative-pathname thingy
<TwoNotes>
Now that I see how the test case works
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<Xach>
good luck with it!
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<pjb>
theseb: because of the Turing Equivalence, all TC languages are extensions of other TC languages!
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<pjb>
theseb: the only thing, is that if you start from lambda calculus, you will have to simulate a whole universe to implement a complete CL, because CL has I/O and lambda-calculus none.
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<pjb>
theseb: (you must at least implement a file system, and a terminal input/output, and of course, some entity "user" to read and type at the terminal; you may not have to simulate the Milky Way…).
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<TwoNotes>
You could take the view that I/O is merely a run-time library and not part of the language proper
<TwoNotes>
I include the XKCD episode about Lisp only be reference
<phoe>
of that particular progv in that particular place
<Bike>
well, like i said, i think they fucked it up
<phoe>
all that comes to my mind is SYMBOL-VALUE which will correctly fetch the bound dynavalue
<phoe>
but that in turn might screw up already bound dynamic variables
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<theseb>
say pedantically speaking....(lambda (x) (+ x 3)) is actually a function *definition* rather than a function right? .....just like + is really not a function but rather a symbol that evaluates to a function yes?
<phoe>
theseb: (lambda ...) evaluates to a function object
<phoe>
if you use it as a form, that is
<Xach>
theseb: you can talk about what something reads as vs what it evaluates to, sure.
<phoe>
if you use it in instead of a function name, like ((lambda ...) ...), then it is a function definition, yes
<theseb>
phoe: exactly! but (lambda ...) itself is not a function!
<theseb>
phoe: ok
<phoe>
theseb: what do you mean, "is not a function"
<phoe>
it is a list
<theseb>
phoe: it is a function *definition*
<Xach>
theseb: sometimes the context implies evaluation, but it isn't always crystal clear.
<theseb>
phoe: ok..a function definition list
<phoe>
it is a list whose first element is the symbol LAMBDA
<phoe>
and what it means depends on the context in which it is used
<Xach>
sometimes it can be very helpful to be extra precise, sometimes not
<phoe>
if we want to be pedantic, then ((lambda ...) ...) is equivalent to (funcall (lambda ...) ...) and therefore the function "definition" is nonetheless reduced to a function object
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<pjb>
theseb: (lambda (x) (+ x 3)) is a sexp. It's a list. It's a cons cell. It contains the symbol, assumedly CL:LAMBDA, in its car, and the list ((x) (+ x 3)) in it's cdr.
<pjb>
theseb: ask your implementation! (inspect '(lambda (x) (+ x 3)))
<Xach>
theseb: what prompts the question?
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<pjb>
theseb: as phoe says, ((lambda (x) (+ x 3)) 4) has the same form as (sin 4) which shows that (lambda (x) (+ x 3)) can be considered as the "name" of the function (lambda (x) (+ x 3)).
<LdBeth>
Well lambda is a macro expends to (function (lambda (...) ...))
<LdBeth>
For consistency, (foo ...) can be treat to be equivalent to (funcall #'foo ...)
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<theseb>
Xach: i'm implementing my own little lisp and want to understand the low level details perfectly.....it is sort of a labor of love...that is why the question
<Xach>
ah
<theseb>
thanks all for the help..until next time
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<phoe>
wait
<phoe>
I need to understand why (progv '(x) '(10) (eval 'x)) works
<phoe>
X is not proclaimed special anywhere
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<phoe>
...I think I got it
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<LdBeth>
phoe: so progv should implicitly declare special
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<pjb>
phoe: because clhs progv says: progv creates new dynamic variable bindings and executes each form using those bindings.
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<pjb>
phoe: it's equivalent to (let ((x 10)) (declare (special x)) (eval 'x)) but not to: (let ((x 10)) (locally (declare (special x)) (eval 'x))) #| ERROR: Unbound variable: x |#