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<LdBeth>
gooa evening
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<jeosol>
morning guys
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<mathpacka>
so I have an issue with packages in lisp, I install a package close emacs, then it vanishes, open emacs have to reinstall the package, I just installed emacs/sbcl/quicklisp/slime and I think the "quicklisp" folder is getting confused with the "(dot).quicklisp" folder
<jeosol>
it shouldn't be the case normally if quicklisp is set up correctly
<mathpacka>
I changed where it was pointing to, and that's helped, but it's still loosing packages
<mathpacka>
so I have to run (ql:quickload :trivial-gamekit) before I can run (load "test.lisp") every time i run it, that's not normal is it?
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<pjb>
mathpacka: you forgot to save the image, and then to launch the saved image, instead of the original lisp.
<pjb>
mathpacka: but usually people just reload whatever then need in their new session.
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<mathpacka>
oh, ok
<pjb>
mathpacka: that's why I keep using loader files. Files named loader.lisp that perform all the ql:quickloading required and other initialization I want for each project. Then I have a repl command named ll (or a symbol-macro) that runs (load "loader.lisp")
<mathpacka>
ok, great, that was driving me crazy, thanks!
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<pjb>
mathpacka: also, you can just never quit emacs. This is just what I do. I boot linux, and never quit emacs, until linux crashes. (which may occur a couple of times every ten years).
<pjb>
Actually, emacs updates occur more often than me quitting emacs usually.
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<jeosol>
morning beach
<jeosol>
haven't been here for a while due to recent move. how is the SICL project going?
<beach>
jeosol: Bike is working on improving the intermediate language of the Cleavir compiler. And heisig is working on creating fast generic versions of the sequence functions, and in the process implemented sealing.
<beach>
My own work is stalled because of ELS submissions. Once we submit our papers (which are SICL related, of course) I'll be working on code generation.
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<jeosol>
very nice. I hope I can contribute to this effort one when I am fully settled
<beach>
That would be great!
<jeosol>
thanks for the update. Appreciated
<beach>
What contribution do you have in mind?
<jeosol>
Not sure, you had sent me a list of topics in the past, but I then started to relocated, so lost track
<pillton>
beach: What is sealing?
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<jeosol>
I am not a compiler or language expert, but mostly I focus on application and utilities. Maybe I could learn some of the former concepts from the project
<beach>
pillton: Restricting things like inheritance and method additions for certain classes.
<beach>
jeosol: Sounds good.
<beach>
pillton: The idea is to define the sequence functions as generic functions, but to avoid the generic dispatch if the sequence is a list or a vector.
<pillton>
That is what specialization-store is for.
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<beach>
Right. Maybe you should talk to him about what it can do.
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<aeth>
Oh that would be amazing, to see an implementation use specialization-store for the sequence functions like we in the community have to for everything else.
<aeth>
Ideally that could lead to some major improvements
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<aeth>
s/for the sequence functions/for the built-in sequence functions/
<pillton>
The really hard part is macros for iterating over elements in a container.
<beach>
pillton: What do you mean?
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<pillton>
beach: You should be able to write (for ((item (the container arbitrary-container))) (my-function item)) for any type of container and have the macro generate efficient code. For arrays that would mean no range checks and no dereferencing displaced arrays when retrieving items.
<beach>
That part has been done, at least for the standard sequence classes. It's in our paper from a few years back.
<pillton>
I'll have to read the paper again. I thought what I was working on went further than what was mentioned in the paper.
<pillton>
Right. I presume for-each-releavant-* inspects the environment to get the type?
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<beach>
For the vector types? No, each implementation just defines the macro so that every vector class is mentioned.
<pillton>
Oh. It is defined for vector types.
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<pillton>
For arrays with rank greater than 1 you have to use row-major-aref for element access.
<beach>
Those are not sequences, though.
<pillton>
I know, but there are problems where you need to iterate over elements and or subsets. e.g. (for ((item (column (the (array double-float (* *)) array) 1))) ...)
<beach>
I can imagine that. But the SICL sequence functions don't have that as a goal.
<pillton>
The macro I was working on could interpret the container form and generate efficient code.
<beach>
Looks good. You should definitely talk to heisig about what you have done. If there is something we can add to SICL to make things easier to implement, or faster, we should consider it.
<pillton>
Ok.
<beach>
Since we are in control of how environments are represented (as first-class global environments), it is easy to add new things.
<pillton>
Well, there is the argument that all of what is done in template-function could be done in HIR/MIR.
<beach>
Hmm, yes, I see.
<beach>
Some people fear that that technique would be slow.
<beach>
Or, *is* slow, because we do things like that now.
<beach>
Like for arithmetic, we just inline the full dispatch code. Then we let the type inferencer prune it.
<pillton>
People fear templates in C++ as well. Template-function is very close to C++ templates.
<beach>
I see.
<pillton>
I have no problem with compilers that do that.
<beach>
That do what? What SICL does now?
<beach>
Or what template-functions do?
<pillton>
I was referring to inlining the full dispatch code. You can always introduce (locally (declare (optimize take-as-long-as-you-want)) ...).
<beach>
Yes.
<beach>
But then you have clients like Clasp that will see their build times increase. :(
<pillton>
Right.
<beach>
Anyway, I need to concentrate on getting SICL working, so I need to delegate some stuff. Maybe you and heisig can think of this together?
<pillton>
Sure. I'll get in contact with him/her.
<beach>
Once I have things working, I will definitely revisit optimizations and such, so I might get back to it, but that's not imminent.
<beach>
him
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<beach>
Marco Heisig.
<beach>
He will be at ELS in case you want to discuss with him in person. :)
<beach>
He is also a regular visitor to our home. We can have a week of brainstorming here. :)
<pillton>
I'd love to go.
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<beach>
Oh, and #sicl is the main place for SICL-specific stuff, so as to avoid boring the #lisp people.
<beach>
But maybe you have channel overload already.
<pillton>
(Sorry. I was thinking about our discussion.) I think the problem boils down to finding the right balance between normal order reduction and applicative order reduction.
<beach>
Hmm. That does sound like an interesting characterization.
<pillton>
If I joined #sicl I'd probably get no work done.
<pillton>
I have for years been trying to decide whether I want to cross over the line and wade through compiler design and implementation.
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<beach>
I fully understand.
<beach>
SICL is (in my opinion, of course) a unique opportunity to create a modern Common Lisp implementation from scratch, so if we have new ideas on how to make it fast while still keeping it highly maintainable, this is the time to do it. Just to give you more information to help you decide. :)
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<shrdlu68>
Can't get past the compilation step in the README.
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<jackdaniel>
beach: I thought you loathe the word "modern" :-)
<jackdaniel>
[nb: many implementations are continously "modernized", not only "maintained"]
<jackdaniel>
pillton: since SICL uses full CL as its host language working on implementing it should be quite pleasent and not much different than working on other Common Lisp applications
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<shka__>
hello
<shka__>
CL is just pretty decent language to build compiler with
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<beach>
Hmm, I can't find ELS2019 on EasyChair. I must be doing something wrong. Any ideas?
<beach>
Never mind. Got it.
<beach>
jackdaniel: Thanks for encouraging pillton. :)
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<soyeomul^bionic>
my computer is arm64 chromebook, is it possible test cmucl in my computer?
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<jackdaniel>
soyeomul^bionic: afaik cmucl doesn't have support for arm architecture
<jackdaniel>
sbcl (which is cmucl fork) does support arm32 and arm64 architectures (fwiw arm32 doesn't have threads - alternatives are ecl and ccl (probably abcl too) which both support threads on that platform)
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<soyeomul^bionic>
thanks but there is no arm64 cmucl. it's not good.
<beach>
soyeomul^bionic: Why do you need CMUCL?
<soyeomul^bionic>
because Gmane back-end server made in CMUCL.
<soyeomul^bionic>
so i need to study cmucl on my chromebook(arm64)
<shka__>
non portable?
<soyeomul^bionic>
sorry i do not understand your words, english is not mother language
<jackdaniel>
soyeomul^bionic: mentioned compilers all implement same standard (Common Lisp). If this server is made with CMUCL, then it is very likely it doesn't require much work to port it to other implementations too
<beach>
soyeomul^bionic: Do you know what CMUCL-specific functionality it requires?
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<soyeomul^bionic>
jackdaniel: i get understand your words, thanks, so i try with SBCL? SBCL have ARM64.
<soyeomul^bionic>
beach: sorry i do not know about that, i am newbie
<jackdaniel>
soyeomul^bionic: yes, please try sbcl. it is the most similar to cmucl (since it is its fork)
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<soyeomul^bionic>
Thanks jackdaniel, my problem now solved. thanks again,,,
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<jackdaniel>
great :)
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<phoe>
I've asked this question once but I forgot the answer
<phoe>
How can I find the method that will be called if I'd call a GF with given arguments?
<phoe>
Like, I want to find the PRINT-OBJECT method that gets called if I pass it arguments :FOO *STANDARD-OUTPUT*.
<jackdaniel>
phoe: compute-applicable-methods-using-classes or compute-effective-method-function
<dlowe>
phoe: it looks like you're keeping the local nicknames as strings, but it might be better to store them as symbols, maybe even in an internal package
<dlowe>
Looking at the string= in nfasload.lisp:368
<phoe>
dlowe: would it be faster? Hmm.
<phoe>
I guess so, yes.
<dlowe>
well, you'd be using eql instead of string=
<phoe>
On the other hand, if it's a string, then %find-pkg is called.
<phoe>
Which nonetheless does string equality, just with an explicit loop.
<dlowe>
Yeah, I'm just looking at the commit without knowing the bigger picture
<phoe>
Yes - you are right about it
<phoe>
I wonder if that internal package wouldn't grow too big though
<dlowe>
nice set of restarts in add-package-local-nickname
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<phoe>
dlowe: thank you, I shamelessly copied it from SBCL
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<dlowe>
haha
<dlowe>
well, if n packages declared m local nicknames, it would contain n x m symbols
<phoe>
ADD-PACKAGE-LOCAL-NICKNAME, REMOVE-PACKAGE-LOCAL-NICKNAME, PACKAGE-LOCAL-NICKNAMES and PACKAGE-LOCALLY-NICKNAMED-BY-LIST were copied from SBCL and adapted to CCL's package system.
<phoe>
dlowe: yes, and now you delete these n packages
<phoe>
do you unintern the names from the package?
<phoe>
if yes, how do you check if it can be deleted?
<phoe>
s/it/a particular name/
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<dlowe>
it doesn't seem like that many symbols to me, potentially
<phoe>
I don't disagree with you - I just wonder if it wouldn't bring more/different
<phoe>
...different issues
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<dlowe>
The image I'm running right now has 160 packages, if each of them had 15 local nicknames, that would be 2400 symbols
<phoe>
which would also be less in case the local nicknames aren't all unique
<phoe>
I'd assume nickname "F" in ten different packages would map to one internal symbol named "F"
<dlowe>
this is an implementation detail that could be done later, mabye
<dlowe>
I might try to run ansi-tests for the package section to make sure you didn't break anything.
<dlowe>
but I don't see anything else
<phoe>
dlowe: please do, that'll also verify that you can build it.
<phoe>
I'll run it in a minure
<phoe>
minute
<shka__>
phoe: it would be nice to add some check-type here and there
<shka__>
it makes code slightly easier to understand
<dlowe>
haha. I meant "if this were my PR, I might try..."
<phoe>
dlowe: (:
<phoe>
Sure, I'm running them now
<phoe>
shka__: could you pinpoint these places?
<phoe>
CCL is a code soup with a lot of spaghetti - refactoring and documenting it in general would be a lot of joy for multiple people
<phoe>
But I see your point - please pinpoint the places in the GitHub review
<shka__>
could you please paste the link once again?
<phoe>
=============== All tests succeeded ===============
<phoe>
dlowe: ^
<dlowe>
*cheer*
<shka__>
phoe: done
<phoe>
shka__: thanks, added it to the TODO list.
<shka__>
great
<shka__>
as i said, it is somewhat out of scope of this task, but i think it would be acceptable to go ahead with this addition anyway
<phoe>
Yes, I'll want to do that
<phoe>
Let's make this code cleaner than it was
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<phoe>
I need to run now - back in 90mins
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<phoe>
For now - if anyone is able to follow the bootstrapping steps I have written, please do it
<phoe>
I want to be sure that it builds for anyone else than me
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<beach>
Does it make sense to supply an IGNORE or IGNORABLE declaration for a special variable or a global function?
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<makomo>
beach: i think i've seen cl-ppcre use a special variable in one function's lambda-list, with a comment saying that that indeed dynamically binds the variable
<makomo>
so in that context, perhaps it might make sense?
<makomo>
but since i've never tried that technique (i.e. have no proof that it works), maybe my recollection is wrong
<verisimilitude>
I'd rather declare something such as IGNORABLE where it's actually IGNORABLE and not globally, beach.
<makomo>
but intuitively, i would expect it to work
<Bike>
"When not within the scope of a ignore or ignorable declaration, it is desirable for a compiler to issue a warning about any var for which there is neither a for-value reference nor a special declaration, or about any fn for which there is no for-value reference." oh huh
<Bike>
apparently you can have free ignore/able declarations, though. weird
<beach>
Yeah, that's a bit strange.
<beach>
Well, SBCL warns when there is an IGNORE declaration of a special variable.
<beach>
Similarly for global functions.
<beach>
So it does not make sense. In other words, the compiler does not have to store information about such declarations.
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<beach>
Not it does make sense for local macros and symbol macros, right?
<makomo>
Bike: what does "free" mean in that context? empty?
<beach>
Not bound.
<makomo>
what does it mean for a declaration to be free?
<beach>
That it is not bound. Look it up in the glossary.
<makomo>
oh i see
<beach>
makomo: Since a binding of a special variable can affect the meaning of code outside the scope of the form that introduced the binding, it doesn't make much sense to declare it ignore in that form.
<makomo>
beach: indeed
<beach>
Anyway, time to go fix dinner for my (admittedly small) family.
<makomo>
and SBCL does warn about that case as well
<pjb>
beach: it depends. À-priori, a ignore or ignorable declaration on a special variable would not be useful, since it's assumed the variable might be used by the called functions. But if the called functions don't use it, it might be meaningful to declare a special variable ignorable or ignore. But in this case we should get a warning that we made a useless binding!
<pjb>
beach: therefore I would say that ignore or ignorable on special variable is not sensical.
<pjb>
Similarly, in absence of a tree-shaker, global functions may be used eventually. Declaring it ignore, would mean that we can just forget it because it won't be used ever. So why did we define it?
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<makomo>
pjb: but there's no 100% way to check whether a function uses a dynamic variable or not, right?
<makomo>
the function could use all sorts of runtime tricks
<pjb>
makomo: define use. We can check if the function uses it directly, not if it uses it thru one of the function called.
<pjb>
makomo: also, most functions called by a function can be redefined at run-time, so we cannot be sure at compilation time of anything.
<makomo>
oh i see, i misread your first sentence, woops
<makomo>
yeah, makes sense
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<phoe>
shka_: CHECK-TYPEs added to CCL in 50135c8
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<iovec>
hey, in quicklisp i see that i can clone the thing in ~/quicklisp/local-projcets and then quickload works, but it doesn't download it on its own when I do that directly, how can I know what's wrong
<iovec>
I'm using sbcl
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<Bike>
You mean you get a "system nto found" kind of error?
<Bike>
from (ql:quickload :clx-truetype)
<iovec>
yes
<Bike>
could you paste the specific error? on pastebin or something.
<phoe>
(ql:quickload :clx-truetype) works on my machine
<shka_>
as you can see, there is no need for map or anything like that
<Josh_2>
But thats the same thing but position is mapping instead right?
<phoe>
shka_: "00000102345"
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<shka_>
phoe: damn!
<shka_>
you right
<shka_>
sorry
<shka_>
i feel so stupid
<shka_>
Josh_2: ignore this code please
<shka_>
i should go to sleep
<shka_>
phoe: oh no, this should be fine
<shka_>
:test-not
<shka_>
not :test
<shka_>
so it will search for non zero at the end
<shka_>
not for zero
<shka_>
roller caster of emotions xD
<shka_>
or not
<shka_>
phoe: now i don't understand what i did wrong
<shka_>
ah, it will return offset from start even when :from-end is t
<shka_>
well, makes sense
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<shka_>
Josh_2: having said that, i really should leave computer alone, i am not really productive
<Josh_2>
dw about it :)
<Josh_2>
Thanks for trying to help
<shka_>
Josh_2: you can figure this out, though, right?
<Josh_2>
I can
<Josh_2>
(if (equal (type-of sequence)) xD
<shka_>
you can find position from end, then you should handle 3 cases, if position is null, return empty sequence, if it is zero return original sequence, if it is non-zero use subesquence