#lisp on 2019-01-30 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2018-12-22 23:33 phoe changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.14, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0

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03:33 <jeosol_> morning guys

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04:01 <beach> Good morning everyone!

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04:05 <jeosol_> morning beach

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04:28 <makomo> morning

04:29 <beach> Hello makomo.

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04:32 <jeosol_> anyone knows if there is a cl library with features similar to panda?

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06:05 <emaczen> What is the common workaround in terms of C FFI for returning and passing structs?

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06:07 <emaczen> I am using CFFI and the return value and arguments require types

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06:33 <p_l> emaczen: you might want to experiment with using libffi?

06:34 <emaczen> p_l: cffi-libffi worked with CCL but not SBCL

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06:35 <emaczen> but I also checked the SBCL specific FFI and struct return values and arguments are unimplemented

06:35 <p_l> emaczen: how did cffi-libffi fail on SBCL?

06:37 <fiddlerwoaroof> cffi-libffi is a bit tricky to use, ime

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06:37 <fiddlerwoaroof> I've occasionally written small shims to convert structs passed/returned by value to structs returned/passed by reference.

06:37 <fiddlerwoaroof> But, that's not ideal for performance sensitive applications

06:37 <fiddlerwoaroof> emaczen: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/objc-lisp-bridge/blob/master/nsrect-expose.m

06:37 <emaczen> #P"/home/user/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-1.4.6-1.fc28-linux-x64/home/user/common-lisp/src/gnustep/gui/gnustep.fasl" is missing I think

06:38 <fiddlerwoaroof> What are you trying to do?

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06:39 <emaczen> I'm trying to call initWithContentRect: via the C runtime library

06:39 <emaczen> lol, you read my mind

06:39 <fiddlerwoaroof> Ah, I've done that sorta

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06:39 <fiddlerwoaroof> https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/objc-lisp-bridge/blob/master/demo-app.lisp#L192

06:39 <fiddlerwoaroof> I believe this works on OSX

06:40 <fiddlerwoaroof> objc_msg_send is a bit tricky to work with because you're supposed to cast it to the appropriate type for the selector you're trying to call

06:41 <fiddlerwoaroof> Anyways, if you want to debug my objc-lisp-bridge library on GNUstep, It'd be great to make it semi cross-platform ;)

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06:41 <emaczen> fiddlerwoaroof: I just started, but I've been using sel_registerName, class_getMethodImplementation and then calling the function pointer returned by class_getMethodImplementation

06:42 <fiddlerwoaroof> hmm, I'm not sure if that's going to be reliable

06:42 <emaczen> why?

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06:43 <fiddlerwoaroof> I don't know the details of how this works: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/objc-lisp-bridge/blob/master/objc-runtime.lisp#L102 but I have a suspicion you're sort of bypassing a level

06:45 <fiddlerwoaroof> I suspect what you're doing is like trying to invoke the methods of a generic function directly and you might run into issues with more complicated components

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06:46 <fiddlerwoaroof> but, what do I know, the objc-runtime is only barely documented as it is

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06:46 <emaczen> Anyway it looks like in nsrect-expose, you avoided the struct, by writing C code that takes a pointer?

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06:50 <emaczen> How does cffi-libffi get around this?

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07:12 <mathpacka> is there a lisp begginer channel?

07:12 <mathpacka> *beginner

07:14 <no-defun-allowed> #clschool

07:14 <mathpacka> ok, thanks!

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07:37 <fiddlerwoaroof> emaczen: Im not sure, I think libffi uses a magic C library that is allowed to know things that the C standard doesnt specify

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09:18 <shrdlu68> Does there exist syntax highlighting for format strings?

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09:39 <phoe> shrdlu68: I don't think so

09:41 <splittist> shrdlu68: it's a fascinating idea, though

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09:47 <flip214> I'd like to see some translation into plain lisp -- so ~{~} etc. gets "macroexpanded" to DOLIST or IF etc.; that would be quite helpful sometimes.

09:47 <flip214> A bit like the representation CL-PPCRE:PARSE-STRING gives.

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11:24 <p_l> flip214: tried using CL:FORMATTER?

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12:44 <flip214> p_l: yes, that "just" gives me a #<FUNCTION ...>

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12:44 <p_l> flip214: macroexpand it?

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12:47 <flip214> p_l: ah, yeah. right. Thanks!

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12:51 <pjb> disassemble it!

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16:49 <phoe> Does CCL have thread-safe hash tables?

16:50 <phoe> I have found lock-free ones but I don't know if that's what I want to use in this case.

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16:54 <jackdaniel> if :shared is t, then they are thread-safe

16:54 <jackdaniel> lock-free only gives you the actual implementation of how synchronization is implemented

16:54 <phoe> Got it

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18:16 <rme> ccl hash tables are thread-safe (using a lock-free algorithm) by default.

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18:28 <phoe> rme: thanks.

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18:38 <phoe> I now have the local nicknames stored in the package system, as in, the accessors seem to be working correctly now.

18:39 <phoe> I'll try modifying the symbol reader now.

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19:41 <LdBeth> Good morning everyone

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20:03 <phoe> https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/111#issuecomment-459088532

20:04 <phoe> Hey people interested in package-local nicknames in CCL - I have some bad news to announce in the comment above. I'll want your feedback.

20:05 <Bike> "doing package lookup at runtime" for stuff like intern doesn't really seem that bad

20:05 <cage_> i am ok for slower :)

20:06 <dlowe> phoe: fwiw, I don't expect interning a symbol to be an especially fast operation

20:06 <phoe> dlowe: intern, find-symbol, find-package will be affected.

20:07 <Bike> anything taking a package-designator, i guess

20:07 <phoe> yes

20:07 <Bike> but none of them are really things i'd expect fastspeedocity from

20:07 <Bike> i'm surprised ccl bothers to optimize. what's it do, compute the hash code ahead of time or something?

20:08 <phoe> I think so, yes

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20:09 <phoe> https://lists.clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2013-February/009837.html

20:09 <phoe> I see this as the reason for introducing the lookup in the first place

20:09 <phoe> and that assumption in the second paragraph is correct indeed

20:10 <Bike> yes, it would be difficult or impossible to preserve that optimization.

20:10 <phoe> impossible in general - (intern "FOO" :bar) means different things depending on whose nickname "BAR" is.

20:11 <phoe> and that may change with a simple *PACKAGE* rebinding.

20:11 <phoe> so, that's always a runtime lookup.

20:11 <phoe> UNLESS

20:12 <phoe> ...can we actually make a minor runtime check? If the package has any PLNs, then do the full call; otherwise, use the optimized variant.

20:12 <Bike> i guess that would work.

20:12 <phoe> If a package has no PLNs, then all package bindings are global.

20:12 <phoe> So, (if (package-local-nicknames package) (slow-call) (fast-call))

20:13 <phoe> Whereas (slow-call) is just the function call, and (fast-call) is the form computed by the compiler macro.

20:13 <phoe> Lemme try.

20:16 <phoe> Well, I just blew my stack while expanding the compiler macro. One second...

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20:19 <jackdaniel> to keep thigns positive, don't call these things like that. (if (p-l-n package) (fast-call) (faster-call)) ;-)

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20:20 <phoe> s/slow/to-be-optimized/g

20:21 <phoe> s/to-be-optimized/waiting-for-you-to-make-it-faster~/g

20:21 <phoe> or rather

20:21 <phoe> to keep it positive

20:21 <phoe> (if (< thing 0) (- thing) thing)

20:22 <jackdaniel> is 0 positive though? ,)

20:22 <phoe> sigh

20:22 <jackdaniel> also, is (< 0- 0+);?

20:22 <jackdaniel> (< -0.0 +0.0)

20:23 <no-defun-allowed> I thought least-p-s-f and l-n-s-f were non-zero.

20:23 <jackdaniel> as of compilation time things, nicknames are known from the start, so why pln calls can't be precompiled too?

20:24 <jackdaniel> when you add a local nickname you invalidate cache and populate it anew

20:25 <phoe> (defun foo () (find-package :bar))

20:25 <jackdaniel> no-defun-allowed: you are right, that's what I'm joking about

20:25 <phoe> if you compile this FIND-PACKAGE call into something static, and then rebind *PACKAGE*, you must now recompile FOO

20:26 <ebrasca> Hi I have read last day about this package-local nicknames but don't understand them.

20:26 <phoe> since the value of FIND-PACKAGE now depends on a dynamic variable, the lookup must take the current value of that dynamic variable into account

20:26 <jackdaniel> ebrasca: the gist of it is that in your package you declare how you call packages you use

20:26 <phoe> hence, it must be done at runtime.

20:27 <jackdaniel> so I may have a local nickname "gl" for cl-opengl package, while you may have a local nickname "gl" for clx-gl package

20:27 <phoe> ebrasca: it's the thing that will finally allow you to use pjb's packages in your code without losing your sanity or code clarity. (;

20:27 <jackdaniel> and both our packages may coexist

20:28 <jackdaniel> dynamic variable?

20:28 <phoe> jackdaniel: yes

20:28 <phoe> *PACKAGE*

20:28 <phoe> (let ((*package* (find-package :frob))) (foo)) may result in a different thing than (foo)

20:28 <jackdaniel> ah, right

20:29 <phoe> right now I'm trying to figure out where and how this macro blows my stack...

20:29 <jackdaniel> that part may be part of the hash though if you think about it

20:30 <phoe> Can a compiler macro be invoked recursively?

20:30 <jackdaniel> (list symbol-name package-name *package*)

20:30 <ebrasca> So If I like to use 2 packages with same name , can I use both?

20:30 <phoe> jackdaniel: yes, as long as you statically provide package objects in all FIND-PACKAGE, FIND-SYMBOL, and INTERN calls

20:30 <jackdaniel> ebrasca: not exactly, two packages can't exist with the same name on the system. but packages may have much longer names without much impact on client code

20:31 <phoe> Oh well. How can I prevent a compiler macro from being invoked recursively?

20:31 <jackdaniel> for instance eu.freestyle.ebrasca.libraries.super-bfs-utilities could be accessed as (bfs:some-utility)

20:31 <phoe> I want to expand into something like `(if (foo) (bar) ,whole)

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20:32 <phoe> But, if I understand correctly, this will cause WHOLE to be compiler-macro-expanded again.

20:32 <phoe> And hence will set my stack on fire.

20:32 <ebrasca> But it don't make it harder to read code?

20:32 <jackdaniel> I think it doesn't

20:33 <jackdaniel> phoe: you want a compiler macro for XXX, which does `(if (foo) (bar) (%xxx))

20:33 <jackdaniel> where %xxx is your fast variant

20:33 <phoe> jackdaniel: damn. CCL, ya make it hard for me to refactor you, don'tcha?

20:33 <jackdaniel> otherwise as you have pointed out, you get into infinite expansion

20:33 <phoe> This is DEFINE-COMPILER-MACRO for INTERN.

20:34 <phoe> Meaning that I now have to (defun intern (...) (%intern ...))

20:34 <phoe> Except %INTERN is already defined as a function elsewhere

20:34 <ebrasca> Instead of x: I going to have a: in one package and b: in other and/or other names.

20:34 <jackdaniel> compiler macro provides faster alternative *if* you can decide it at the compilation time

20:34 <phoe> Hm

20:34 <jackdaniel> and you try to make compiler macro, which tries to decide after the compilation

20:34 <phoe> So do I want a compiler macro at all?

20:34 <phoe> Or do I want to stuff this logic into the actual function?

20:34 <jackdaniel> if you can't decide it at compilation time you don't want a compiler macro

20:35 <phoe> Well then.

20:35 <phoe> Time for even more refactoring, it seems.

20:36 <ebrasca> I think I like local names. Some day I going to need to lear how to use them with quicklisp.

20:36 <scymtym> phoe: you can also expand into `(if … (fast-path) (locally (declare (notinline intern)) ,whole)) to avoid recursive expansion

20:36 <phoe> scymtym: ooooh

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20:36 <phoe> I didn't know that NOTINLINE inhibits compiler macro expansion

20:37 <phoe> clhs notinline

20:37 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_inline.htm

20:37 <phoe> "In the presence of a compiler macro definition for function-name, a notinline declaration prevents that compiler macro from being used."

20:37 <phoe> Fancy!

20:37 <phoe> Thanks for that.

20:38 <makomo> that's fancy indeed, cool

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20:53 <phoe> ...I just realized that this option is going to break

20:53 <phoe> Bike: we can delete PLNs, which may cause code that previously was doing full calls to start doing fast calls

20:54 <phoe> And I have no idea how this is going to behave

20:54 <phoe> Can this cause a different package to be chosen?

20:54 <phoe> In the worst case, if a package has no more local nicknames, then... the package with the original name will be chosen.

20:54 <phoe> What would have been the case anyway.

20:54 <phoe> Whew.

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20:58 <phoe> This is wlowly coming togetherrrr

20:58 <phoe> ;; 15 tests run, 6 failures.

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21:23 <phoe> ;; 16 tests run, 4 failures.

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21:41 <Josh_2> Anyone know where I can find Shinmera on IRC? He just told me his IRC username and I forgot it

21:42 <shka_> Josh_2: here

21:42 <shka_> but not now

21:42 <Josh_2> Rip

21:43 <phoe> Josh_2: #shirakumo

21:43 <phoe> also, his IRC name is Shinmera

21:43 <shka_> yeah

21:44 <shka_> he is on #sicl as well

21:44 <shka_> but i suspect he may be offline at the moment

21:47 <Josh_2> All is good

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