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<asarch>
Can you pass a value "by reference"? If yes, how
<asarch>
?
<no-defun-allowed>
well, you can put them in a "box", which is an array with just one value
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<equwal>
Another route is to use a (let (var) (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (lambda ())))
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<asarch>
Thank you!
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<defaultxr>
hi, if i have a generic function (defgeneric foo (&optional bar)) how do i define a method for the case when bar is not provided? (defmethod foo (&optional (bar null)) 'blah) gives an "UNBOUND-VARIABLE NULL" error when i run (foo)
<loke>
defaultxr: You can't unfortunately.
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<loke>
what you normally do is to have a generic backend function like so:
<defaultxr>
that is indeed unfortunate. thank you for the help.
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
The way the MOP handles this is usually by having FOO and FOO-USING-CLASS
<fiddlerwoaroof>
e.g. SLOT-VALUE and SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
The advantage is that the generic version is not using conventions for internal functions, so you can export it so that other people can extend your function to work with their classes.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
But, yeah, I've wished that you could specialize on optional/key arguments: the generic function could just require that you specify a default value and use that value to dispatch when the argument is not provided.
<aeth>
asarch: Arrays are multi-dimensional, including 0-dimensional. So you can create a box with a 0-dimensional array, e.g. (make-array '())
<aeth>
You would access it with (aref foo) with no index
<aeth>
This is most useful with an :element-type of 'double-float, '(unsigned-byte 64), or '(signed-byte 64) because arrays of one those three element types might remove the box that normally exists for those types.
<keep_learning_M>
Hi everyone, I am wondering if anyone here is acl2 user ? I have problem in installing it on Mac.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I've used it a bit keep_learning_M
<fiddlerwoaroof>
what's the issue you're having?
<defaultxr>
fiddlerwoaroof: FOO-USING-CLASS? is there an example of that that you can refer me to?
<defaultxr>
i was hoping to keep the ability for users to define their own methods for my FOO function without having to refer them to %FOO or the like so that sounds relevant to me
<loke>
defaultxr: You could build your own version of DEFGENERIC and DEFMETHOD that supports that
<defaultxr>
hmm... it's not something that is already provided by a library? like closer-mop or the like?
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<no-defun-allowed>
keep_learning_M: it's not a solution, but i had to paste in the contents of workxxx myself, i assume something changed with invoking ccl
<ldb>
good morning
<no-defun-allowed>
morning ldb
<no-defun-allowed>
you're not saying "Heap exhausted, game over." like usual, what's up?
<aeth>
I'm considering writing my own defmethod that would support what you want like this: (define-method foo (&optional (bar nil null)) ...) where the middle value is the default value, like the second value in defun's &optional, but it doesn't exist yet.
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: sounds like a good loss condition for a #lispgames game
<no-defun-allowed>
haha
<ldb>
seg fault
<ldb>
GG
<aeth>
ldb: I lose games like that all of the time when I install 80 mods
<no-defun-allowed>
well, that's a shame
<no-defun-allowed>
(at least it dies gracefully-ish, mine just eat zram swap and make the computer unusable)
<keep_learning_M>
no-defun-allowed, Could you please tell me more ? Where should I paste the content of workxxx ((load "init.lisp") (acl2::make-tags) (acl2::exit-lisp)) ?
<no-defun-allowed>
i think i edited out whatever loaded workxxx in the make file and i got a repl which i put those in
<ldb>
keep_learning_M: Are you using Mojave?
<keep_learning_M>
ldb Yes
<keep_learning_M>
MacOS Mojave (version 10.14.2)
<ldb>
Then that's a problem of ccl that havn't fixed, u can try sbcl
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<ldb>
Mojave is not currently supported by ccl right now
<fiddlerwoaroof>
The idea is you use a normal function + a generic function, but you give the generic function a name that indicates that it's related talo function
<fiddlerwoaroof>
s/talo/to the/
<fiddlerwoaroof>
One option is to have FOO and %FOO, but `%` generally is used to indicate that the function is an implementation detail and not meant to be used by other people.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
keep_learning_M: I'm not sure, I always used sbcl to build ACL2
<jcowan>
What's more irritating is that there is no way to specialize on rest-parameters, unless your function happens to be associative
<jcowan>
in which case you can define a binary generic function and a non-generic function with &rest, as in Dylan
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<defaultxr>
thanks fiddlerwoaroof!
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<deadghost>
I'm going through PAIP and am on the write a 20 questions game exercise
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<deadghost>
I'm coming in from clojure so I'm used to defining/initializing hashmaps in one step
<deadghost>
is there something more pleasant than make-hash-table, then setf gethash?
<deadghost>
it gets confusing pretty fast when nested hashmaps are involved
* |3b|
uses alexandria:plist-hash-table to initialize simple hash tables. can get a bit verbose for nested tables though
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<hectorhonn>
morning beach
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<asarch>
Thank you aeth
<asarch>
Thank you very much :-)
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<slightlycyborg>
Hi. What is the correct way to search a list for an object and then refer to the next item in the list, cycling to the beginning if at the end
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<slightlycyborg>
I don't need you to write the code, I only want some fn names that could get me there
<deadghost>
slightlycyborg, member?
<slightlycyborg>
holy shit, that is perfect
<slightlycyborg>
:)
<Xof>
or, possibly, getf
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<shka__>
good morning
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<beach>
Hello shka__.
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<beach>
This book on introduction to programming that I am working on is going to be very different from other such books. Not only because it is using Common Lisp, but because of the way things are presented. I just wrote section 2.4 this morning: http://metamodular.com/integers.pdf
<beach>
That section starts at the bottom of the first page.
<shka__>
beach: when is you data structures book coming out?
<beach>
Ask my favorite coauthor. She is supposed to work on it.
<shka__>
ok
<shka__>
what about the other book, about design?
<beach>
This one? Intro programming.
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<beach>
The title is "Introduction to programming".
<beach>
Anyway, my new year's resolution is to work more on my books.
<shka__>
beach: awesome!
<varjag>
why fragments 2.7 and 2.8 are there?
<beach>
They belong to the previous section that I am not showing you.
<beach>
They just happened to end up on that page.
<varjag>
ah
<shka__>
beach: protocol chapter you put on metamodular really left me wanting more
<beach>
Thanks.
<beach>
That's not from the book on data structures though. It's from a book on object-oriented programming in Common Lisp.
<shka__>
beach: yeah, that's what i called book about design
<shka__>
i missed the scope of the book
<beach>
Oh, I see. No, the URL is from a different book again.
<shka__>
but from what you said data structures book will be equally usefull
<shka__>
beach: how many books are in progress actually?
<beach>
I forget, 10 or so.
<beach>
Plus translations of all of them to French and Swedish.
<shka__>
you don't like to focus on one thing, don't you?
<beach>
No, I get bored.
<shka__>
;-)
<shka__>
i can see
<beach>
Anyway, 4 pages in one morning is not bad. If I can keep up my resolution, things will progress this year.
<shka__>
cool
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<beach>
remasen: Because he is an important Common Lisp person.
<remasen>
hmm....
<beach>
You don't seem happy with that answer.
<remasen>
if a pythonista fought with a lisper- who would win?
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<beach>
remasen: Pointless question. Off topic too.
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<remasen>
I see lots of annoying C-like brackets )))))) can indentation improve them in lisp?
<beach>
remasen: I think you can stop now. Go play somewhere else.
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<remasen>
I need a sex-base programming language I need sex. now!
<remasen>
I need sex based programming language
<remasen>
now!
<beach>
... as I suspected.
<remasen>
beach: i don't care what you think of me.
<remasen>
I am thinking of making an app for bitches, but fear I will get caught for illicitly promoting sex-based approaches to programming.
<remasen>
I hate to go to jail
<varjag>
how did you manage to log in all way from 1996 to here
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<remasen>
varjag: by using a sex-based logger, what else???? ha
<flip214>
remasen: Do you know the phrase "You're no fun any more?" And it's origin in TV?
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<remasen>
nope
<remasen>
I am not here to satisfy for lustful tendencies flip214 . fun begins when we have an app to meet bitches without getting caught fear!!!
<remasen>
we have 50m bitches in the whole world
<ogamita>
flip214: what is its origin in TV?
<shka__>
heh, kids these days
<remasen>
I was thinking of learning C, after that found lisp is better. I did learn C , but abandoned too hard
<flip214>
ogamita: I know it from Monty Python's Flying Circus; 1/7
<remasen>
after C people told me to fuck off in python, I learned python, and loved it!! After that "thought" of giving lisp a try, since C is hard.
<remasen>
oh fuck
<remasen>
oh no
<remasen>
fuck
<flip214>
remasen: I'd recommend to read a good book.
remasen was kicked from #lisp by jackdaniel [bye]
<flip214>
jackdaniel: oh no, just when I tried to educate her!
<beach>
jackdaniel: Thanks.
<jackdaniel>
sure
<jackdaniel>
ops, sorry jackhill
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<beach>
It ought to be a prerequisite for trolls to master the English language. At least they would not give quite such a ridiculous impression then.
<remasen>
oh sorry, I was just checking whether I am banned or not
<remasen>
I know English nicely. :)
<flip214>
minion: tell remasen about pcl
<minion>
remasen: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<minion>
remasen: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
<remasen>
being a troll doesn't mean- I am not smart. I am more into theoretical cs. I love it!! I also love physics/math!!
<remasen>
hence lisp interest.
<flip214>
remasen: then I'd recommend SICP, and then the book "Gödel-Escher-Bach". The latter is not lisp-related, but with these interests you might quite love it, too!
<remasen>
But I forgot I got to do some Quantum Physics, have to go...will be back after . of course I read godel-escar-bach, and code by charles petzold, also boolean algebra - laws oof thought by boole himself.
<remasen>
I also read all books of Ray kurzweil, and how to make a mind, singularity is near. I like the differential equations at the back of the book that give a mathematical glimpse into evolution itself.
<jackdaniel>
please skip topics which are not directly related to lisp. there is #lispcafe channel for chit-chat
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<no-defun-allowed>
):
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<no-defun-allowed>
That's the powers of persuasion, kids.
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<margaritamike>
Does SBCL have the option to be statically typed to achieve typing which meets the capacity of Java for example?
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<heisig>
margaritamike: Type handling in CL is very different from that in statically typed languages. However, there is sb-ext::*derive-function-types*.
<scymtym>
margaritamike: no. there are no parametric types (of the kind Java provides) and not everything in CL can be typed statically. setting SB-EXT:*DERIVE-FUNCTION-TYPES* to true lets the type inference do a bit more at the cost of additional assumptions, but, depending on the code, the result is usually nowhere near complete static typing
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<heisig>
:)
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<heisig>
Also, SBCL does very smart things once one declares the type of struct slots.
<margaritamike>
How does one using CL cope with this when (1) wanting to have a lot of heavy lifting so one doesn't need to pay attention to getting small details right in many places over and over, (2) abstract so much that something only needs to be right in one place, (3) ensure that if something is written wrong the program won't even build, and (4) generalize across many types very easily.
<pierpal>
one starts using something else.
<p_l>
margaritamike: one can build their own language on top
<margaritamike>
rlly? :<
<p_l>
also, types are piss-poor solution for errors
<margaritamike>
What would (1), (2), (3), and (4) map to in Common Lisp if you were looking to make a small system that does all of those?
<p_l>
margaritamike: it would first need to be rewritten to be more comprehensible (at least I have issues figuring 1,2,4)
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<c4droid>
Hello everyone, I'm newbie for Common Lisp, please give most concorn :)
<jackdaniel>
minion: please tell c4droid about paip
<minion>
c4droid: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
<jackdaniel>
minion: please tell c4droid about pcl
<minion>
c4droid: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<jackdaniel>
c4droid: these may be a good reasources to dive into (if you have some prior programming experience not in lisp)
<jackdaniel>
and hello! :-)
<p_l>
also
<p_l>
minion: please tell c4droid about gentle
<minion>
c4droid: have a look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
<c4droid>
I learned syntax for common lisp, and I readed pcl, but I want more experience for common lisp, have any more resource for common lisp?
<p_l>
c4droid: gentle is good for getting better at fancy list/tree manipulation, PAIP is full of interesting techniques for Common Lisp including a chapter on writing an (basic) optimizing compiler
<c4droid>
Ok, I will check that.
<jackdaniel>
c4droid: paip has some amazing case studies. contributing to existing open source projects is another good way to learn (and it is a hands on experience which may be enlisted in cv).
<c4droid>
I just a newbie, contributing to existing open source projects maybe is to hard for me. lol.
<jackdaniel>
c4droid: if you are a newbie, than you start from easier issues
<jackdaniel>
with time your contributions get bigger
<ogamita>
Copy the links, send them by email to yourself, and open them this evening from your home.
<ogamita>
Alternatively, if you can ssh to a host without a firewall, you can use w3m to browse them, mostly.
<c4droid>
ogamita: Because I am chinese, you know that...
<ogamita>
I didn't know that.
<ogamita>
But I fail to understand why China would block a site in Brazil or in Germany (informatimago.com is in Germany).
<c4droid>
Even I cannot login to the Google.
<c4droid>
I just can login github and stackoverflow
<c4droid>
And some specical pages...
<ogamita>
I'm just a little French guy; we're only 50 millions. You're more than 1.3 billion. So you're better placed to reverse your government and establish full internet connectivity than us.
<ogamita>
And we're already quite buzy trying to throw away our current president…
<c4droid>
China banned VPN, If we build VPN server, wait for us is one thing: goto jail.
<c4droid>
QAQ
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<ogamita>
c4droid: this is way I didn't advise you to do that. I'm advising you to do a revolution and to put all the communist into a jail (if not worse).
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<ogamita>
c4droid: you can have a look at how they did it in Poland…
<c4droid>
If we want start a revolution, we want to keep on record at government.
<c4droid>
And government have right to monitor im software, like wechat.
<ogamita>
c4droid: have a look at sdf.org; try: ssh sdf.org
<ogamita>
There is help for sdf at irc.sdf.org in the #helpdesk channel.
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<c4droid>
ok.
<beach>
c4droid: How can we help you if you can't access the web?
<c4droid>
beach: no,no,no, thanks for help. :)
<beach>
It's an honest question. If you have any idea, then let us know.
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<c4droid>
I trying using command ssh new@sdf.org, ssh feedback error: Broken Pipe
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<c4droid>
Preferred login is fill username? ogamita
<ogamita>
well you have to choose a unique login, there are already a lot of users on sdf.
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<ogamita>
And consider that by default, ssh uses the current login, so it's nice to use the same login on all your machines. If c4droid is your login on your own machine, you may try to use that.
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<c4droid>
ogamita: Are you a membership in sdf.org?
<c4droid>
I register a account, but my mailbox not receive the email.
<c4droid>
I change my irc client, wait for a minute.
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<c4droid>
I'm back.
<beach>
Great!
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<c4droid>
My emacs environment not function definition highlight at bottom line, how to set it?
<beach>
Did you run SLIME?
<c4droid>
Not.
<beach>
SLIME is what connects to your Common Lisp system to determine this information.
<shka__>
do it
<c4droid>
Can do it at disconnect offline?
<shka__>
not really
<beach>
I don't know what that means.
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<c4droid>
If i disconnect slime, it can be worked?
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<beach>
No, SLIME is the connection to your Common Lisp system that supplies that information.
<beach>
If SLIME is not running, Emacs has no way of finding this information.
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<c4droid>
Emmm....
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<c4droid>
No alternative method?
<jackdaniel>
ecl provides etags file with its distribution for navigation
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<jackdaniel>
but I doubt you are interested in that
<beach>
c4droid: Why do you want to avoid using SLIME?
<jackdaniel>
slime is your best option as of 2019
<jackdaniel>
(or IDE found in commercial LW / Allegro - they have limited "free user evaluation" versions afaik)
<c4droid>
Because I'm writing Emacs Lisp, the bottom line have definition hints.
<jackdaniel>
minion: tell c4droid about portacle
<minion>
c4droid: portacle: Portacle is a complete IDE for Common Lisp that you can take with you on a USB stick https://shinmera.github.io/portacle/
<beach>
c4droid: If you are writing in Emacs Lisp, you are in the wrong channel. This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
<jackdaniel>
c4droid: all emacs lisp definitions are available to emacs itself because they are part of the same process. emacs doesn't have common lisp compiler as one of its components
<jackdaniel>
so you need to connect to the common lisp compiler (i.e via slime)
<c4droid>
beach: no,no,no, i mean the definition hints function.
<jackdaniel>
portacle has that preconfigured for you
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<beach>
c4droid: What jackdaniel said. Emacs has no knowledge of Common Lisp.
<jackdaniel>
when you'll have estabilished slime connection with the CL compiler you'll have hints in the minibuffer when editing lisp files
<c4droid>
Ah, I'll use slime then, because I have configuration for other languages in Emacs.
<jackdaniel>
good for you - it is a maintained solid piece of software which is main IDE for many people here on #lisp (so it is very likely you'll have help if you encounter problems)
<ogamita>
c4droid: when you write emacs lisp code, it's executed directly by emacs itself. When you write Common Lisp code, it's executed by sbcl, a separate process from emacs. So the two process have to communicate. Emacs only provides a bare pty-based interface between emacs lisp and an inferior lisp processs (inferior = child). slime/swank provide a more sophisticated interface between emacs and Common Lisp.
<jackdaniel>
damn, I didn't know that my ECL process does such underhanded thing as calling sbcl underneath
<ogamita>
c4droid: so you can avoid slime, but you won't get all those nice integrations, you will have to do more things in the *inferior-lisp* buffer at the CL REPL.
<ogamita>
c4droid: it's much better to set up slime and use it. Notably, it has a nice debugger UI.
<c4droid>
jackdaniel: Not only do I write Common Lisp, but I also write other languages, which I have integrated into Emacs.
<ogamita>
c4droid: each language has its own integration emacs mode.
<ogamita>
There's jdee for android or java development for example.
<c4droid>
ogamita: yes, My Emacs configure is modulized, relevance is very strong
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<c4droid>
Now it late at night, is time for sleep, good night everybody.
<beach>
'night c4droid.
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<c4droid>
Good night, see you then tomorrow
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<asarch>
Emacs or XEmacs?
<asarch>
I mean, their Lisp is actually compatible between them, right?
<aeth>
Is XEmacs still alive?
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<asarch>
D'oh! :'-(
<asarch>
xemacs-21.4.22p23.tgz for OpenBSD 6.4 for AMD64
<aeth>
21.4.22 is from 2009-01-30 according to Wikipedia. And the latest prveiew, 21.5.34, is from 2013-06-23
<asarch>
Oh, it is quite dead
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<jasom>
xemacs was a fork from gnuemacs sometime around 1990 by a lisp vendor (lucid I think?) because gnu emacs next release was greatly delayed. At this point I think gnu emacs is strictly better than xemacs.
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<aeth>
jasom: I think it was because of the copyright assignment policy of the FSF, actually.
<jasom>
aeth: copyright assignment was a big part of the reason that xemacs lasted as long as it did IIRC, but it was originally done to support Lucid's IDE.
<aeth>
ah
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<asarch>
Thank you
<asarch>
Thank you very much
<asarch>
:-)
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<verisimilitude>
Oh, I'm just now reading the backlog. With regards to your suggestion of GEB, flip214, I'll comment that is perhaps the most drawn-out nonfiction book I've ever read.
<verisimilitude>
I can read and do read standards documents for nice reading, but GEB is over seven hundred pages of circumlocution. I've still yet to finish it, having made it more than halfway through years ago and then just leaving it.
<verisimilitude>
It has no right being so long, I suppose.
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<anamorphic>
Hi, I checked out Corman Lisp... How does it compare to other Lisps? Anyone know it's lineage?
<verisimilitude>
I know it as the popular Windows Common Lisp that was recently made freely available.
<verisimilitude>
I believe it features greater integration with Windows APIs than other implementations, and so would primarily be useful for that, anamorphic.
<anamorphic>
Yeah it has a reader macro #! that understands the curly braces apparently
<anamorphic>
Could be great for new comers. Has a sort of IDE
<jasom>
it's supposed to be good for hooking into C/C++ in general (can even generate a .dll to make plugins for non-lisp applications) and the windows API in particular.
<anamorphic>
Yeah there's a video too, which is pretty interesting. I thought the inline assembler was neat. Reminded me of primary-school days messing with turbo pascal
<tich-k>
how do i implement a loop similar to this in common lisp for( a = 0; a < 10000; a = a + 2 ){
<tich-k>
}
<tich-k>
printf("value of i: %d q :%d\n", a ,a+1);
<verisimilitude>
Give me a minute and I'll show you, tich-k.
<jasom>
tich-k: (loop for a from 0 below 10000 do (format t "value of i: ~d q: ~d~%" a (1+ a)))
<anamorphic>
(loop for a by 2 velow 10000
<jasom>
tich-k: (loop for a from 0 below 10000 by 2 do (format t "value of i: ~d q: ~d~%" a (1+ a)))
<verisimilitude>
Well, nevermind, then.
<jasom>
that's one-line because of irc, I'll paste a formatted version in a second
<anamorphic>
Love CL:LOOP
<anamorphic>
verisimilitude: Returning to common lisp?
<verisimilitude>
For the record, that's exactly how I wrote it, amusingly.
<pjb>
(loop for a to 10 by 2 collect a) #| --> (0 2 4 6 8 10) |#
<anamorphic>
Yeah, but it's great how easy it was to add a a C-style for loop
<pjb>
Indeed, if you need it.
<tich-k>
I will stick to the loop solution
<anamorphic>
In my Java work, I'd have to create a JEP document, muster the support of the community and then maybe in a few years it might be considered
<anamorphic>
(probably not though)
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<verisimilitude>
I take it this JEP is some feature proposal?
<permagreen>
Based on the similarity to PEP, I'm going to assume so
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<anamorphic>
Yeah
<verisimilitude>
I can see the value in a language without metaprogramming, such as APL or Ada, but Java seems to be the worst of every world, lacking advantages but maintaining all of the disadvantages and more.
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<anamorphic>
verisimilitude: Yes, I believe it is.
<verisimilitude>
Python is worse, I suppose, since it's also very poorly implemented, so at least you're not using Python, anamorphic.
<vms14>
a basic Java application running atop Spring Boot would require a minimum of 1GB of RAM in order to run.
<jasom>
python at least falls into the two acceptible categories of (Has a good type system || is untyped)
<vms14>
xD
<aeth>
The only dynamically typed language I know of that has a type system that doesn't exist to make fast implementations as hard as possible is CL.
<verisimilitude>
I'm still amazed Python is so popular, considering all of its asinine design decisions and ingeniously poor implementation.
<vms14>
verisimilitude: because it's easy to get started, and also fun
<jasom>
verisimilitude: rewind the clock to 2000 and you will see why
<verisimilitude>
Smalltalk isn't hard to make fast, aeth.
<verisimilitude>
Explain, jasom.
<vms14>
python is slow, but is the language who people recommends to start programming
<anamorphic>
I had a hard time getting started with python. The xkcd commic on python environements is pretty accurate
<vms14>
also, you can do a lot of things with python
<verisimilitude>
Technically, you can do anything with python.
<verisimilitude>
Anything that any other language can, that is.
<jasom>
verisimilitude: python was competing with C, C++, Java 1.2 (no generics!), and perl.
<vms14>
I hate java and I don't know why
<verisimilitude>
CL gets entirely ignored, yes.
<jasom>
verisimilitude: package management for libraries was essentially non-existent, and the python code looks an awful lot like the psuedo code one might write
<vms14>
I guess it's because it's a very big language with a lot of things "by default" and I tend to take the most minimalist things I can due to my masochism
<jasom>
CPAN did exist, so perl had a real story for libraries.
<verisimilitude>
What I suppose I find most disconcerting about Python is its ``Everything is a library someone else already wrote.'' development paradigm. It's very disconcerting to see small libraries for so many trivial things, to the point where ``programmers'' don't need to actually do anything but glue them together.
<jasom>
so really python was competing with perl.
<vms14>
python is fun to work with
<anamorphic>
Man those poor Perl bastards... the demise of that language was so rapid
<vms14>
it's funnier than most of languages, because in 3 days you can start working with libraries and doing "stuff"
<vms14>
but when learning Lisp, I see it's funnier than python
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<jasom>
I mean the very first contribution I made to an OSS project was in python, and I had never written or read python prior to running into the bug that I fixed.
<vms14>
the only problem with lisp, is it's different. Also lisper indentation scares newcomers
<vms14>
they run before see its power
<verisimilitude>
I recall reading an article that highlighted Python's broken partial implementation of an UNWIND-PROTECT mechanism.
<verisimilitude>
It involved some library for responding to UNIX signals or something or another.
<verisimilitude>
The primary implementation is broken in that respect, however. What a foundation of sand, I think.
<anamorphic>
Yeah, but unix signals...
<verisimilitude>
Sure, but you can expect UNWIND-PROTECT to work, anamorphic.
<vms14>
some people argues unix is shit because they prefer simplicity than quality
<vms14>
and the rule "worse is better" applies in this world
<anamorphic>
Hmm yeah you'er right, verisimilitude. In Java it is no problem. Nor in any Lisp I've used.
<verisimilitude>
UNIX is neither, so I don't see your point, vms14.
<jasom>
vms14: specifically "simplicity of implementation"
<anamorphic>
Myabe I was thinking of threads+unix signals
<vms14>
I love unix, so I don't think that
<verisimilitude>
UNIX is both massively complicated and very inefficient and poorly designed.
<verisimilitude>
s/both/all of/
<jasom>
verisimilitude: I didn't realize unix was designed...
<vms14>
but some people say that unix is shit because they prefer to make things simple than make them correct
<verisimilitude>
Good point, jasom, but there was some design after the fact.
<verisimilitude>
I don't understand, vms14, since that's the UNIX attitude.
<verisimilitude>
Why have error handling when you can call panic and yell down the hall to reboot the PDP-11?
<vms14>
xD
<verisimilitude>
That's the original UNIX error handling mechanism, by the by, vms14.
<vms14>
I love unix anyway due to the alternatives we have for me it's the best one
<vms14>
just because when Windows has a lock, unix has a manual
<no-defun-allowed>
>Another nice thing about Suns is their simplicity. You know how a LispM is always jumping into that awful, hairy debugger with the confusing backtrace display, and expecting you to tell it how to proceed? Well, Suns ALWAYS know how to proceed. They dump a core file and kill the offending process. What could be easier?
<verisimilitude>
It's always amusing how Windows is the only other operating system that exists when discussing UNIX.
<pjb>
verisimilitude: well, all the others have died.
<vms14>
I'm poor, so no mac for me
<pjb>
AmigaOS, BeOS, MacOS,
<pjb>
GemOS, KeyKOS, EROS, Multics VMS, etc.
<pjb>
All dead.
<verisimilitude>
Software never really dies.
<vms14>
also if I had money, I guess I'll waste this money on good hardware for a bsd system than on a mac computer
<verisimilitude>
Not so long as copies exist.
<vms14>
with the same price you can get better hardware
<anamorphic>
I think thread support on *BSD is spotty
<vms14>
I cannot argue that
<vms14>
I want to someday understand better the internals of netbsd
<anamorphic>
I could be wrong. That comment was based on multi years-old experience
<vms14>
also plan9
<anamorphic>
Are there any Common Lisps for plan9 and ilk?
<vms14>
idk, plan9 for me it's just educative stuff
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<verisimilitude>
None come to mind, anamorphic.
<vms14>
I've tried to install it on raw hardware, but no network drivers for my machine, so it's an useless machine
<vms14>
anyway, use the system which makes you happy
<anamorphic>
Cliki meantions ArrowLisp, but links to it seem deadish
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<vms14>
btw golang is plan9 made a language, or that's what they say
<vms14>
but this is ultra offtopic, better to say those things in #lispcafe
<verisimilitude>
Well, it has horrible error handling, knows what's best for you whether you agree or not, and nicely complements a giant corporation, so sure, vms14.
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<vms14>
at least I don't have blue screens of death in cron like windows has xD
<vms14>
and long time to not see a kernel panic, but I'm not doing anything to "fuck" the stability of the system
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<no-defun-allowed>
what websocket client libraries are there in CL?
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