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<hectorhonn>
morning everyone
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<defaultxr>
hi. i want to do something like (defmethod (setf foo) (value object key) ...) so i can do (setf (foo obj 'blah) 'value) , where obj is the object, 'blah is the key, and 'value is the value. do i have to use define-setf-expander for this or is there some way to do it the defmethod way?
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<defaultxr>
nevermind, should've searched a bit more first
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<no-defun-allowed>
aeth: arch doesn't have ed in the default package list, lol
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: Is that perhaps because they distinguish between GNU Ed and "real" ed?
<no-defun-allowed>
there was no /usr/bin/ed before i installed it
<no-defun-allowed>
also the package was 100kb according to pacman
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<no-defun-allowed>
interesting that the ed in the usenet post dates to the end of the 1929 market crash
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<loke>
I note that fedora didn't have ed by default either
<loke>
WHAT NONSENSE IS THIS!
<no-defun-allowed>
a good kind of nonsense
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<loke>
hello beach!
<beach>
ggole: That was a direct quotation.
<beach>
Bike: Good point, yes.
<aeth>
loke: What's more concerning is that fedora doesn't have `units` by default, perhaps the most useful Unix utility
<aeth>
I mean, I think Unix was actually named for units
<aeth>
Someone needs to make a pure-CL implementation of that program
<loke>
aeth: Maxima has Units. :-)
<loke>
called ezunits
<loke>
and Maxima is pure CL
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<libertyprime>
yo. any function to return the first non-nil argument?
<lieven>
(some #'id ...)
<libertyprime>
oh nice. thanks my bro
<lieven>
if you don't insist it's a function (or ...) is more idiomatic
<libertyprime>
interesting. or looks cool too
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<libertyprime>
or is great. it gets the job done
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<lieven>
the difference being that you can do (apply #'some #'id arg-list) and you can't do (apply #'or arg-list)
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<splittist>
good morning #lisp
<beach>
Hello splittist.
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<shka_>
good morning
<fiddlerwoaroof>
morning shka_
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<makomo>
morning
<makomo>
no-defun-allowed: "good morning everyone" got me good :-)
<makomo>
(regarding the OS drawing)
<makomo>
woops, wrong channel
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<shrdlu68>
Morning
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Does anyone happen to know if there are any 9pfs servers written in CL?
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<flip214>
I've got a function where SBCL says "derived type: (FUNCTION (...args...) (VALUES SB-SYS:SYSTEM-AREA-POINTER &OPTIONAL)) but a call via APPLY gives me an error "A function with declared result type NIL returned:
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<flip214>
Can somebody tell me what the problem is?
<flip214>
This is 1.4.15+some git, I'll retry with git HEAD
<fiddlerwoaroof>
flip214: are there any ftype declarations for that function?
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
e.g. (declaim (ftype...)
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<flip214>
fiddlerwoaroof: no, none that a grep can see
<flip214>
and the derived type shows a return value!
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Hmm, is there FFI involved?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Could it be that the foreign function is a void function that's actually returning a pointer?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Also, if you rename the problematic function, does the problem still exist?
<flip214>
fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, quite a lot of FFI here -- but the message was about _this_ functions which is in Lisp
<flip214>
with sbcl git head I don't get this error anymore
<flip214>
thanks anyway!
<fiddlerwoaroof>
cool, I once had to bisect sbcl to see why my code wasn't working :)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
git bisect with a 25 minute build between steps is lots of fun
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<shka_>
well, i used to have a book at hands reach back in my C++ days for a reason :P
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Yeah, at work I generally get coffee whenever I have to build our legacy Java codebase
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Fortunately, I've moved to somewhere where I'm mostly writing Clojure and JS
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<flip214>
fiddlerwoaroof: this helps: # SBCL_MAKE_PARALLEL=6 SBCL_MAKE_JOBS=-j6 bash make.sh
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Hmm, I should add that to my arsenal of spells
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<flip214>
fiddlerwoaroof: I dump such things in a "PM-MAKE" script in the base directories, with PM being my initials
<flip214>
along with a PM-CONF, if appropriate
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<shka_>
fiddlerwoaroof: good for you!
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<schweers>
flip214: parallel building is only for building sbcl itself, right?
<schweers>
Forget it, I just saw that there is indeed a make.sh.
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<schweers>
I wish I could use macros to do one-time transformations of source code
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<aeth>
schweers: As in, you'd save the resulting macroexpansion?
<aeth>
If that's what you mean, that already happens with macroexpand-1, you would just need a better automatic formatter
<schweers>
Sort of. I just had the idea that I’d like to to a onetime macroexpansion in a file (or emacs buffer) and have the result pretty printed etc ;)
<schweers>
<aeth>
Well it'd just be macroexpand-1, so you reduced the problem to pretty printing
<aeth>
(Just a two year project to handle all of the edge cases)
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<flip214>
schweers: beach has an editor that "understands" CL (for syntax HL), IIRC it can also do reformatting
<beach>
Which one? (first) Climacs? I am asking because Second Climacs is not operational.
<schweers>
I guess one could also do this with emacs in some way. But to be honest, I did not think this through. It was just a random thought which entered my conciousness ;)
<jackdaniel>
C-c M-e on a macro expands it in place in slime
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<pjb>
schweers: of course, you can use macros to do 1-time transformations, but if you write a macro, why not let the compiler do it.
<schweers>
jackdaniel: Thanks, I didn’t know about that.
<schweers>
pjb: I wanted to use them as a refactoring help.
<pjb>
schweers: for edit-time transformations, you can still use lisp expressions, functions (or if you already have it a macro that you would macroexpand, but only if you have to further edit the expansion).
<pjb>
schweers: you can also use emacs-lisp.
<pjb>
schweers: see for example redshank (and my additions).
<pjb>
"usual" refactoring can be done with emacs commands. One-time code generation can be done with either emacs lisp or common lisp. Since you're assumedly already in a common lisp buffer, it's probably easier to use common lisp in (pprint …) and C-u C-x C-e
<schweers>
pjb: thanks for the links, especially redshank. I’ll have a look at it some time (hopefully today).
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I just discovered C-M-t
<beach>
Oh, wow.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I've been using C-M-k forward-sexp C-y for a while, and it finally occurred to me to figure out if there was a more efficient way to do this :)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
However, I've been using all the more complicated paredit (smartparens, actually) stuff for a long time
<shka_>
wow
<shka_>
i didn't new about this feature
<fiddlerwoaroof>
My takeaway is try adding M- to your normal manipulation/navigation commands and see if it affects sexps
<shka_>
didn't expect such thing in slime...
<shka_>
to be honest
<shka_>
well, there seems to be quite a bit of sexp manipulation stuff now when i am reading the manual
<fiddlerwoaroof>
This isn't slime, I don't think
<fiddlerwoaroof>
It's shipped with emacs: emacs is a lisp runtime, after all
<shka_>
hm, ok
<schweers>
It works in elisp and scheme modes too
<schweers>
Defined right after TRANSPOSE-WORDS in simple.el
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<beach>
Anyone interested should talk to me first before starting of course.
<beach>
The work consists of extracting code and documentation from Cleavir.
<beach>
Plus factoring the existing code, and removing Cleavir-specific stuff from it.
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<beach>
The SICL coding conventions must be respected.
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<jmercouris>
Is it okay to do something like (gethash :x some-table (progn (setf (gethash :x some-table) 10)))
<jmercouris>
Basically, you hit the hash table, and if the entry doesn't exist, the "alternate value" has a side effect of generating what that value should be for future calls
<dlowe>
yeah, I see that. I'm amused.
<jackdaniel>
no, gethash is a function, so your setf will be evaluated before the leftmost gethash is
<Bike>
gethash is a function, so the progn will be evaluated before gethash is called, so :x in the table will always be 10.
<jackdaniel>
alexandria:ensure-gethash is what you really want
<Bike>
pretty common to write a macro for this, though
<Bike>
also, you don't need the progn
<jmercouris>
yeah the progn is frivolous I see that
<dlowe>
honestly, I think I would rather have an abstraction over the hash table
<jmercouris>
alexandria:ensure-gethash, ok, I will look, thanks
<jmercouris>
dlowe: yes, but the idea is that I want to call a function, when no key is found
<jmercouris>
to set the default value
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<jmercouris>
so that upon the next invokation of gethash, it will be found
<jmercouris>
I don't want to put a check of gethash and abstract it in a function, because then it will be checking the hash table EVERY TIME it wants to retrieve that value
<jmercouris>
if that makes sense
<jmercouris>
alexandria seems to solve this issue though
<dlowe>
... it has to check the hash table anyway
<jmercouris>
"Like GETHASH, but if KEY is not found in the HASH-TABLE saves the DEFAULT under key before returning it. Secondary return value is true if key was already in the table."
<ebrasca>
beach: I have never think you can pay other people in cl to program for you.
<beach>
I have done it before, but not per-project like this. Why do you think that is not possible?
<jackdaniel>
I think that it was meant as "I have never thought you can pay…"
<jackdaniel>
McCLIM for instance has a bounty program
<dlowe>
I would totally do it if I had time.
<beach>
jackdaniel: Yes, I think I parsed it correctly.
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<beach>
ebrasca: I have way more stuff to do than I will ever have time for. This is a simple way for me to get more done per time unit.
<pjb>
beach: you might want to publish your bounty on cll, fcll, or a code bounty web sites (but the later are not necessarily roamed by lispers).
<dlowe>
I have had very mixed results with code bounty websites
<pjb>
for lisp? I'd guess.
<dlowe>
just in general
<pjb>
ok.
<ebrasca>
mmm Can I pay someone to port Mezzano OS to TalosII?
<pjb>
jmercouris: the idiom would be: (or (gethash :x some-table) (setf (gethash :x some-table) 10))
<pjb>
jmercouris: but only if NIL is not a valid entry.
<dlowe>
ebrasca: the answer is "depends on how much money you have to spend on it"
<jmercouris>
pjb: that's way cleaner than what I just wrote
<jmercouris>
thank you
<jmercouris>
nil is indeed not a valid entry in my case
<ebrasca>
dlowe: How much do you think I need to pay?
<beach>
pjb: I don't think I want to do that quite yet.
<beach>
pjb: To begin with, I want to screen the people who might be interested.
<pjb>
:-)
<pjb>
Currently, I have a lot of my plate too…
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<dlowe>
ebrasca: I don't know. I just have faith that at some amount, you can get people to program a thing for you
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<ebrasca>
How do you find someone to program it?
<beach>
ebrasca: Who are you asking? In my case, I ask here.
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<dlowe>
If you have even more money, you can pay someone to find those programmers
<nirved>
ebrasca: that would need to include at least $8k for the TalosII itself
<dlowe>
or pay another programmer to write a TalosII emulator
<ebrasca>
What about qemu?
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<nirved>
ebrasca: what about the drivers?
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<ebrasca>
remote connection?
<nirved>
without network driver...
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<ebrasca>
nirved: I have buy my talos II for ~4k$
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<nirved>
ebrasca: does it have a gpu?
<ebrasca>
nirved: No , I don't need gpu.
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<nirved>
ebrasca: just noticed, there are cheaper ones, the entry model is $2400
<nirved>
was always looking at the "secure workstation" model
<ebrasca>
Probably with openbmc conection 1 can port mezzano to talos II remotely.
<ebrasca>
With openbmc I can start debian remotely.
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<ebrasca>
How I can make money programing common lisp?
<beach>
Write something that people would want to pay for.
<ebrasca>
I have 1 email server and 0 donations/users...
<Xach>
I don't want to pay for that.
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<ebrasca>
Do you have some idea?
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<Xach>
ebrasca: I have been somewhat successful using Common Lisp to make tools that do things I need done. Sometimes that is for an employer who has hired me and sometimes that is for myself. In some cases the Common Lisp code is the product but it is often a tool to create some other product.
<Xach>
If you can use it to accomplish your goals it can be worthwhile.
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<Xach>
I have a hobby project of making replica roadside signs, and I wrote Common Lisp programs to drive the signmaking software.
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<Xach>
Making tools is a fun hobby is you have the free time to invest in it.
<Xach>
It can also develop into more than a hobby if you practice and make useful things.
<Xach>
But sometimes it remains a hobby - people also enjoy woodworking and making woodworking tools as a hobby, but the market for the product is limited. Software is a different story in some respects, though.
<ebrasca>
I have write some parts of Mezzano but porting it to other CPU architecture is...
<Xach>
ebrasca: that sounds interesting
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<ebrasca>
Xach: It is mostly Some fat32 and ext4 support.
<Xach>
ebrasca: Cool. That is unlikely to make you money directly. But learning how to read specifications and write working software is a valuable skill.
<Xach>
There is an external world that can verify that you did it correctly, which is not always available in all endeavors. Can you read the files or not? is a very direct and unambiguous question.
<Xach>
ebrasca: in my experience, learning things like that can accumulate and lead to unexpected opportunities when enough background work and knowledge is available.
<Xach>
when something interesting comes along you may be able to take 4 unrelated skills and apply them efficiently to a new task to get it done more quickly than anyone else
<Xach>
or, you might just keep doing it for fun!
<ebrasca>
Xach: I can read/write files from fat32 , I can read files from ext2 and ext3 ( Not all features implemented ) and ext4 don't work.
<Xach>
ebrasca: sounds like a cool challenge remains
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<Xach>
I can tell you that I paid a company real money to be able to work with ext3 drives on my mac, so if you find something sufficiently useful to a sufficient number of people, maybe it can make money for you also
<ebrasca>
Xach: Yea I have not figured how to make all parts of file systems and they have some bugs.
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<ebrasca>
Xach: How someone find me or how I find them?
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<Xach>
ebrasca: one option is to write about your work, explain what you have done and why you did it and why someone might care (optional)
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<ebrasca>
Probably if I write it is like 3 lines of text ...
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<Xach>
ebrasca: Maybe so, but maybe it will lead to 5 lines of text the next time, then 8 lines, then 13 lines, etc.
<ebrasca>
Xach: I am working to make hunchentoot work in mezzano OS.
<Xach>
ebrasca: cool! what are some of the challenges in doing that?
<ebrasca>
Xach: For now I need to make better usocket support for mezzano.
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<ebrasca>
Xach: With usocket done hunchentoot is probably going to work.
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<ebrasca>
Xach: I have done some fixes and add some server functions in mezzano tcp ip.
<splittist>
FWIW, the C-M-[thing] lisp-handling commands go back at least as far as TECO EMACS (when they were LISP-handling commands, I guess). That's over 40 years.
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<ebrasca>
Xach: Thank you!
<Xach>
ebrasca: good luck. the reality is that even with hard work and lots of effort sometimes things are not successful. but hopefully it can be somewhat fun and educational along the way.
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<ebrasca>
Xach: I going to have fun time adding support for Btrfs.
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<ebrasca>
Xach: How are you doing?
<Xach>
ebrasca: wonderful. i wrote a lisp program to make a sign to put on my ice-fishing shack and i was able to put it up on saturday.
<Xach>
by law all shacks must show contact info for the owner
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<schweers>
I may just be too tired but ... does anyone see something wrong with this?
<makomo>
schweers: what's the corresponding DEFGENERIC?
<dlowe>
you might need &allow-other-keys
<Xach>
schweers: are you having trouble with it?
<schweers>
Well, it seems not to be called.
<Xach>
schweers: how can you tell?
<schweers>
Ah, &allow-other-keys may be the key here (pun intended)
<schweers>
sb-cover claims it isn’t, which matches my other findings.
<Krystof>
it won't be not called for want of &allow-other-keys
<makomo>
schweers: oh never mind, i just realized it's INITIALIZE-INSTANCE
<beach>
I am thinking a package problem.
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<beach>
Or a typo.
<schweers>
beach: I copied it to IRC in order to avoid a typo. What do you mean by package issue? If you’re thinking the class name may not be visible: the definition is the previous expression in the file.
<beach>
No, I meant that you get some initialize-instance form a different package, but I guess that's unlikely.
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<schweers>
Oh my, I am too tired
<Krystof>
or you've misspelt initialize-instance (as initialize-isntance, for isntance)
<schweers>
I found the problem. I have another definition later in the same file
<Krystof>
ah, yes, that would do it too
<schweers>
That did it. All is well again :)
<Xach>
phew
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<verisimilitude>
The easiest way would be to use FILL, pjb.
<pjb>
Indeed.
<pjb>
What if you wanted to clear a struct?
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<nirved>
what does "to clear" mean? too vague
<pjb>
fill with nils.
<pjb>
or empty.
<pjb>
an adjustable vector could be resized to 0, a vector with fill-pointer could have its fill-pointer reset to 0.
<pjb>
an array could be filled with nil. a string with spaces.
<jackdaniel>
filling array with NILs is not really clearing it unless semantically NIL means "no value" in the use scenario
<pjb>
There is no short expression to clear a structure, unless it's a :type list or :type vector structure.
<pjb>
indeed.
<jackdaniel>
same goes for structure filled with nils
<pjb>
Nonetheless, it's a good idea to have an idea how to do it.
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<nirved>
a slot in structure could be read-only
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<pjb>
Definitely. Fun can be had.
<jackdaniel>
in case of standard class (and slots) it is easier to "empty" some slots, you unbound them (and you have appropriate slot-unbound methods defined)
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