<solrize>
(if (= n 1) (reverse! a) (go (step) (cons n a))))
<solrize>
(go n '()))
<solrize>
(scheme) seems more natural
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<_death>
sjl: your .plan for 2019 thinks it's january 2018 :)
<thrig>
off by one is common computing error
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<wglb>
hjudt: Thanks for your input.
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<sjl>
whops
<sjl>
the other headings are right because I gen them with a keybind... it's just the one that my idiot self typed by hand that's hosed
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<no-defun-allowed>
can rule 110 be implemented in FORMAT?
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<ahungry>
Does scheme have something similar to a plist in CL or a map in Clojure? A simple way to get a field out like (getf '(:x 1 :y 2) :x) => 1 - I know of assoc - I guess I could write a wrapper to get the cadr of one
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<ahungry>
Seems that wouldn't really solve my want of having a simple literal format for the data though, so I'd probably just have to make something that walks a list 2 atoms at a time and stops if the first matches my lookup
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<ogamita>
shrdlu68: I dare you write an implementation of LISP in Common Lisp. Call it (ql:quickload "lisp²")
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<loke>
ogamita: There is one already
<loke>
I think pjb wrote one
<no-defun-allowed>
ogamita is pjb
<loke>
Oh
<loke>
well then
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<ogamita>
No, I didn't implement the LISP, it's not a very sexy protocol.
<ogamita>
I did telnet.
<loke>
Oh, I thinkt you were talking about LISP. The programming language from the 50's
<loke>
thought
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<d4ryus>
hi, is there a way to create a in memory stream? I would like to pass one 'end' to a thread running uiop/run-programm and the other 'end' to a thread which reads from it.
<lieven>
two-way-stream with string-streams. there's an example in the hyperspec.
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<d4ryus>
lieven: thank you!
<solrize>
that has locks and stuff for inter thread messaging? hmm
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<lieven>
the standard doesn't describe threads so adding those would be an exercise for the reader
<d4ryus>
yep, thought so
<d4ryus>
but sadly uiop/run-programm does not write into the stream until the programm has finished :(
<lieven>
a good match for that problem is the mailbox API. it's native in lispworks and there are ports to other lisps
<lieven>
you might have to hand uiop/run-program a stream with buffering off
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<jackdaniel>
lieven: ecl has native mailbox
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<jmercouris>
suggestons for ORM for CL? I'm already experienced with Crane but am open to other solutions
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<jackdaniel>
I gather saying: don't use ORM won't be helpful?
<jmercouris>
maybe if you explain your reasoning it will be helpful
<jackdaniel>
s/don/"don/ s/ORM/ORM"/
<jmercouris>
I've gone with and without ORMs before
<jmercouris>
I've used cl-sql directly instead of an ORM, and sometimes just plain SQL
<jackdaniel>
well, imho it is a broken abstraction concept
<jmercouris>
at least in the world of CL, in other platforms/languages I've also done both
<jmercouris>
The problem that I have with ORMs is centered around issues with forein key relationships
<jackdaniel>
updating db deserves its own application-specific api but mixing it with object access isn't a fine idea (conceptually speaking)
<jmercouris>
s/forein/foreign
<jmercouris>
so what do you do to synchronize your schema to your codebase?
<jmercouris>
do you have some sort of SQL directory where you write scripts that get executed manually to udpate the schema as necessary?
<jmercouris>
aka, how do you handle migrations, without an ORM that will generate them for you automatically
<jackdaniel>
keeping object relations and database relations model consistent is a hard (and unnecessary) thing.
<jackdaniel>
as I said, having abstraction to *access* database is fine, just mixing it with your objects is not
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<jackdaniel>
as of keeping sql scripts in a directory: it is a fine idea like any other, but writing dsl for updating your relation and using this dsl in your migration functions is fine as well
<jackdaniel>
In other words you ask me how would I handle a problem without ORM which is introduced by ORM itself (automatic migration of class relations)
<jmercouris>
well actually I'm asking a different question
<jmercouris>
let's say we are not using an ORM
<jmercouris>
and we are just using raw SQL to access different columns and rows from a database
<jmercouris>
What if we add another column that we now want to use in our new code
<jmercouris>
we'll change the code and change the query to also use the new column, however we have to ensure that when the new code is run, the database also has the new column
<jmercouris>
how do you maintain that parity? what is your strategy?
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<jmercouris>
ok ok ok, so I re-read your message, and let me see if I understand what you are suggesting
<jmercouris>
you are suggesting that a SQL dir to update things is fine, and what-not, but you'd have something like a "DB-Access" package or something that you'd use to abstract getting data from the database
<jmercouris>
am I understanding you correctly?
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<jmercouris>
and you are saying that maintaining parity between the database structure and this DB-Access abstraction is not a huge issue since the code is all in one place, or what?
<jackdaniel>
I'm saying that your persistent data model is a separate thing than your runtime class hierarchy. When you change database schema, you need to write migration function (which calls dsl or loads hand-written scripts) which: a) updates schema, b) bumps databa schema version number
<jackdaniel>
so you may have set of function: migrate-1.1->1.2, migrate-1.2->1.3 etc
<jmercouris>
so, on the start of program execution, you make sure that these hand written scripts are run?
<jmercouris>
aka you check that the schema version number is as expected, and if not, you traverse your functions to get to your current version
<jackdaniel>
yes
<jmercouris>
do you maintain a separate table in your database for this? something like "schema-version"? that has an int or something?
<jackdaniel>
that's the way to do it. it may be a bit more general, like next-meta-information ;-)
<jmercouris>
have you found yourself doing this a few times? is there a library for this? do you think a library to do this would be useful?
<jackdaniel>
I'm working with a codebase which manages database that way and I find this abstraction very convincing. as of library: migration (if we skip dsl and actual migration script body) is a dozen of lines or so – such library wouldn't be useful
<jackdaniel>
unless you are into left-pad library thing
<jmercouris>
lol
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<jackdaniel>
sorry, I need to drop (a lot of errands to do in a short time)
<jmercouris>
I don't think we're in any danger of turning QL into NPM anytime soon
<jmercouris>
ok, no problem, thanks for advice, I will ponder it
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<ogamita>
jmercouris: ORM = impedence mismatch. Basically the problem is that to do it conveniently, you need to introduce a cache in the client host, and when each client has its own cache, then things break apart.
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<ogamita>
jmercouris: you could have caches on the clients if they were integrated in a OO database, ie. synchronized with the other clients. But then, what do you think will occur when your OODB software needs to synchronise hundreds of clients!?!?
<jmercouris>
well, I have only one client
<jmercouris>
and that will probably not change for the forseeable future
<jmercouris>
however Daniels argument was pretty convincing
<ogamita>
Then you don't need a RDBMS :-)
<jmercouris>
and since you seem to be against ORMs as well..
<jmercouris>
you are right, I actually want an object database, but none of them are mature enough to use
<ogamita>
Well, EOF-1 was not that bad, but it has been dropped by Apple, so it must have had some problem that I didn't see…
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<jmercouris>
Allegrolisp has some ORM db project
<jmercouris>
but I have no idea how to use or download it
<jmercouris>
so I gave up on it
<lieven>
you could always resurrect Statice
<jmercouris>
there was nothing enlightening in their marketing materials about how to obtain a copy
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<jmercouris>
sure, and there are other projects as well
<jmercouris>
however I'm not interested in writing a CL object database at this time, I have enough on my plate
<jmercouris>
I just want to be a user
<ogamita>
jmercouris: Allegro also have pure OO db, better use that.
<jmercouris>
so I will stick with a RDBMS even though it is not the ideal abstraction
<jmercouris>
right, I mentioned that above, but it costs money and I don't even know how to buy it
<dlowe>
I've found through experience that the best DB abstraction is treating the whole DB like the backend for a very capable abstract collection.
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<ogamita>
jmercouris: note that your objects can still know how to save and load themselves in a sql database!
<dlowe>
anything more granular and your abstractions will leak all over the place and you'll be writing bare SQL and cursing
<jmercouris>
and so they shall, I will write an abstraction layer in between
<jmercouris>
a couple of defmethods :D
<jmercouris>
serialize-to-database to generate some SQL
<jmercouris>
and then maybe load-from-database to instantiate an object
<jmercouris>
sure it won't past the eq test, but I don't care
<jmercouris>
however these defmethods will be within the db abstraction package and probably only used locally in functions
<dlowe>
I used Rucksack for a while and it didn't pass the eq test either
<jmercouris>
like "get-users-with-name-fish"
<dlowe>
but you had to treat its objects like you didn't own them anyway
<jmercouris>
and it would return objects for all users with the name fish or something
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<jmercouris>
yeah, I just had a look at rucksack
<jmercouris>
interesting idea
<jmercouris>
almost the same idea
<dlowe>
yeah, I wish it hadn't been abandoned.
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<vasu>
hello
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<beach>
Hello vasu.
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<beach>
vasu: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
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<vasu>
beach: Yup
<beach>
What brings you to #lisp?
<fe[nl]ix>
phoe: I'm back from vacation and I'll take a look at the split-sequence issues sometime soon
<vasu>
beach: Lisp seems interesting
<beach>
It is.
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<vasu>
I can chat here from weechat-matrix without any difficulty. But my riot app says "You do not have permission to post in this room". Weird
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<beach>
vasu: Feel free to ask questions. Notice that this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp. For other dialects or comparisons between them, there is ##lisp. And for really trivial language questions, there is #clschool. Either way, you will be told if you are too much off topic so don't worry about it.
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<vasu>
beach: Thanks
<beach>
Sure.
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<beach>
vasu: Oh, and Common Lisp has several implementations, so it is a good idea to consult us before you choose your environment. It is easy to get it wrong.
<dlowe>
They don't have to be trivial questions to be asked in #clschool :)
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<beach>
dlowe: Would you like to debate that issue? :)
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<dlowe>
Not here and now.
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<beach>
Whew!
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<jmercouris>
I'll answer any trivial questions, its a speciality of mine :D
<jmercouris>
while we are on this off-topic train, I have a problem I am trying to solve with ironclad, unfortunately it is not trivial
<jmercouris>
I want to store passwords in a database, encrypted, such that if someone were to get access to the database they could not figure out *what* the passwords are
<jmercouris>
there is a catch though
<jmercouris>
I, as the administrator, want to be able to view the passwords in cleartext and know what they are
<jmercouris>
the only thing that comes to mind is encrypting the passwords using my public key
<dtornabene>
hey all, quick survey question: I've got a relatively simple web app, with postgres, written in CL using SBCL and I'm wondering what people use for hosting a site like that. Like, VPS, Cloud, something else? No wrong answers just trying to figure out where I want to head
<jmercouris>
dtornabene: I use digital ocean, their tools are very developer friendly
<Xach>
dtornabene: i use ovh and a dedicated server.
<dtornabene>
jmercouris: sweet! and thanks for the reply!
<dlowe>
I use linode, but I use it for a lot of different things already
<jmercouris>
so, to answer you rquestion literally, VPS, it gives you the most control, which can make a huge difference
<jmercouris>
and it allows you to be agnostic of learning some stupid cloud provider UI
<dtornabene>
Xach: whats ovh?
<Xach>
dtornabene: it is a hosting company.
<dtornabene>
Xach: thank you! checking it out now
<jmercouris>
you could also purchase a computer and run it in your house, but your VPS probably won't like that, Xach's solution is the closest you can realistically get to that without purchasing a business line
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<jmercouris>
I know shinmera uses some swiss company who is apparently really good as well, I can't remember the name though
<dtornabene>
yeah, its a really small site, ultimately
<jmercouris>
a VPS will suffice
<Xach>
i had a website that processed tens of thousands of images per day on modest dedicated hardware with sbcl and it worked well for several years.
<dtornabene>
awesome
<jmercouris>
you can probably run it on the smallest tier of linode/digital ocean
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<Xach>
(then i sold the website so i don't know what it uses now)
<dtornabene>
i'm leaning more toward at least checking out digital ocean given the secrutiy issues linode has had over the recent years
<jmercouris>
Xach: it's probably using a combination of drupal and wordpress running php 5.1
<dtornabene>
at least if I don't go with a vps
<jmercouris>
it has been completely rewritten by offshore contractors :D
<jmercouris>
using nothing but wordpress plugins
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<dtornabene>
thanks y'all for the speedy replies, i'll send a link when its up if anyone is interested
<Xach>
it looks like it is still plugging away on common lisp. when i was running it, the only real maintenance needed was periodically cleaning up temporary files.
<jmercouris>
anyone have any better ideas than the one I came-up with, above?
<dtornabene>
Xach: ovh is super reasonable in terms of cost, how has there service been?
<dlowe>
jmercouris: force pw resets like the rest of the world and don't peek at your users' passwords
<jmercouris>
s/there/their
<jmercouris>
dlowe: I'm not peeking at them for my enjoyment, it is necessary to have a confidential string
<Xach>
dtornabene: well, i signed up many years ago, and am grandfathered in on some very cheap hardware. it has been very cheap and very reliable for years. i am not 100% sure what a new person signing up today would experience, but i have been very happy with my stable happy service.
<jmercouris>
that the administrator of the website I'm developing can peek at to do their job
<dtornabene>
Xach: fair enough
<dlowe>
jmercouris: I think you're stuck with public key encryption. Use a salt.
<jmercouris>
ok, so the solution I came up with above, I just wanted to make sure there wasn't a smarter way then
<jmercouris>
I mean, I don't plan on the database being compromised or anything lol, but it would be nice for the data not to leak since it will be encrypted
<jmercouris>
now if the administrator's private key is compromised *AND* the database is compromised, then we have a shit show on our hands
<dlowe>
that's going to be true anyway
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<Xach>
another failure mode is the administrator is malicious and tries user passwords on other sites.
<dlowe>
though you're going to have to figure out a way to bring them together somehow in order to use them
<dlowe>
Xach: well, that was my thought
<jmercouris>
the administrator is an owner/operator of the business
<jmercouris>
if they were being malicious with this information, they would quickly go out of business
<Xach>
sure. but the threat is not to the owner of the business, but to the customers.
<jmercouris>
yeah I get that, I'm just saying, the admin will not be malicious, as it would be destroying their own business
<Xach>
not worth it to me as a customer.
<jmercouris>
I wouldn't do it either, but there is no way around this
<jmercouris>
it is a project requirement
<Xach>
sure. i have the luxury of not advising or working with someone who sets requirements like that.
<jmercouris>
dlowe: What did you mean by "you're going to have to figure out a way to bring them together somehow in order to use them"?
<Xach>
i apppreciate that not everyone has that luxry
<Xach>
luxury, even.
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<dlowe>
jmercouris: if you are providing an interface to the secrets, then the interface must have access to both the private key and the db
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<jmercouris>
I see
<ogamita>
It's more a question of default assumption on the public, between #lisp and #clschool; In the later, it's assumed questioners don't know anything. In the former, it's assumed they already know CL, and a mere clhs reference is enough to answer their question… Plus in #lisp we have highly technical discussions about implementation of CL.
<jmercouris>
well, the admin will have to provide the private key whenever they wish to look
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<jmercouris>
but again, it is not for their amusement or enjoyment or anything, it is so that they can do their job
<jmercouris>
kind of how you give a key to a repairman to come in and do some repair on your house while you are away from home
<jmercouris>
sure they could destroy your kitchen, make copies of your key, run a string of burgularies down the road etc, however if they want to stay in business, they won't do that...
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<wglb>
dtornabene: Friends don't let friends use linode. I use digital ocean for simple mostly static web sites, and price is certainly reasonable.
<jmercouris>
anyone who has access to private information could extort you, your doctor could extort you as well using your private medical information they have access to, nevertheless they need that information to do their job
<jmercouris>
and if they did extort you, they would lose their job, its the exact same scenario here
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<Xach>
cool
<phoe>
fe[nl]ix: welcome back! There are still some things to be done there (some refactoring remarks from beach et al) - I'm waiting for my sickness to let go of me so I can properly focus and finish them.
<Xach>
I wish there was some audio narration - in some cases I don't understand what is happening on screen
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<beach>
And it could be slowed down a bit so I have time to see the different options in the menus.
<scymtym>
Xach: sorry. these were originally meant for #clim participants who know clim's interaction model as well as the current inspector
<beach>
scymtym: He is right though. That would make it even more impressive.
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<jackdaniel>
I third that, verbal commentary is yet another channel of cognition :)
<scymtym>
thanks for the feedback. maybe i can make a better demo when i'm further along. but the code will probably be available as a mcclim branch soon-ish anyway
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<shka__>
scymtym: what happend to the font rendering?
<shka__>
it looks somewhat different
<jackdaniel>
do you mean kerning and all that jazz?
<shka__>
well, now when you mentioned kerning i see it as well, but what struck me is how smooth fonts look
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<shka__>
there was a lot of work on font rendering lately?
<jackdaniel>
that would be my doing (or loke's if scymtym uses freetype bindings)
<jackdaniel>
yes, a lot is an understatement
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<wglb>
scymtym: cool!
<scymtym>
shka__: jackdaniel: i'm using the default backend so all improvements must be due to changes in mcclim
<shka__>
it was worth it, this looks vastly better
<jackdaniel>
thanks
<jackdaniel>
missing features (for volunteers): right-to-left rendering and font shaping
<scymtym>
shka__: the default font size changed (increased) at some point. that may make other improvements more noticable
<scymtym>
wglb: thanks
<shka__>
scymtym: it was needed i think
<shka__>
oddly enough, if not by those old school scrollbars it would look like modern-ish minimalistic design
<jackdaniel>
they are there to have a retro look, all is modern in mcclim ;-)
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<shka__>
fair enough
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<dtornabene>
wglb: 100% agree
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<hjudt>
i need to catch errors at the top-level in a script that is called by sbcl --load. however, when i put e.g. (load ...) or (uiop:run-program ...) inside a handler-bind, then it errors out with "package uiop does not exist." what can i do about this?
<Inline>
load asdf
<Inline>
uiop is part of asdf library
<Inline>
load asdf and then load your file
<hjudt>
Inline: if i do not enclose it inside handler-bind, it works without loading.
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<hjudt>
so what is the difference?
<hjudt>
also (load "quicklisp.lisp") works stand-alone, but not inside handler-bind.
<sjl_>
hjudt: it would be easier for us to debug if you can paste the code (or a minimal example) somewhere
<sjl_>
(also you don't need handler-bind if you're just going to bail entirely, handler-case would be plenty, but that's orthogonal)
<hjudt>
actually i though about wrapping the whole file in it
<hjudt>
ok, goal: try to execute all forms, if there are any errors exit with error code. the original error should be printed to give a clue what happened.
<sjl_>
Well if you wrap the whole file in it, then lisp will need to finish reading the entire form before it can start executing it
<hjudt>
i see
<sjl_>
Part of reading that entire form will involve reading the symbols in the UIOP package
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<sjl_>
which might not have been created yet, if it's the job of one of the forms to load it
<hjudt>
i actually started defining a function exit-with-error to wrap single statements in it, that should help.
<hjudt>
but thanks for explaining, now i believe to understand what's happening.
<hjudt>
sbcl doesn't seem to quit to the os with an error code when something fails, but i need it to do that, otherwise the build will be reported successful.
<sjl_>
I mean, you might be able to get away with just using `sbcl --disable-debugger --load ...`
<sjl_>
but it's good to understand the problem too
<sjl_>
--disable-debugger will make SBCL exit with an error code like you want
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<hjudt>
ok, that would be much easier then. will it exit on warnings too?
<sjl_>
nope
<hjudt>
good. i do not want it to error out on warnings ;-)
<sjl_>
e.g. sbcl --disable-debugger --eval '(warn "foo")' --quit
<hjudt>
great, thanks a lot
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<LdBeth>
Good morning
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<flip214>
minion: pcl
<minion>
pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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<jackdaniel>
without peeking into repl: (let ((x 3)) (loop as x = x then 4 do (print x) (return)) ; what is printed?
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<no-defun-allowed>
NIL then 4?
<no-defun-allowed>
aaah! there's a return! NIL i think
<Bike>
"as x = x"? is that legal?
<jackdaniel>
I don't know, I've treated it as a no-brainer to initialize a variable (and shadow it lexially)
<jackdaniel>
but indeed x = x gives me NIL (to my astonishment)
<jackdaniel>
no-defun-allowed: are you sure you didn't peek in the repl? otherwise, what is your reasoning behind getting NIL first?
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<LdBeth>
jackdaniel: and CCL says unused lexical variable X
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<aeth>
jackdaniel: I noticed this because I use :of-type a lot in my loops, which catches that.
<Bike>
well, for a "for x = x" binding i would expect nil, yes, because i've done it before and got some bullshit like that
<asarch>
One stupid question: Can CLIM do OpenGL operations?
<Bike>
"he for and as keywords are synonyms; they can be used interchangeably." oh, alright then
<Bike>
*the
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<aeth>
lol in this particular case in SBCL, of-type doesn't catch the NIL not being an integer it turns it to 0: (loop as x of-type integer = x then 4 do (print x) (return))
<jackdaniel>
asarch: you can write CLIM backend which does OpenGL operations
<jackdaniel>
but there is nothing in clim specification which would mention opengl
<no-defun-allowed>
jackdaniel: no, i did think about that one, since i've been bitten by that before
<no-defun-allowed>
LOOP binds new variables to NIL, so `(loop for foo = foo ...)` binds foo to NIL
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<no-defun-allowed>
something like (let ((foo 42)) (loop for foo = foo then (next foo) ...)) doesn't work, since foo gets bound in the LOOP first
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: except if you add "of-type integer" to the example code jackdaniel posted you get 0 in SBCL!
<aeth>
Now *that* surprised me
<aeth>
same with CCL.
<no-defun-allowed>
didn't know that though, probably needs to get the uninitialized type right
<no-defun-allowed>
i don't want to read through MIT loop but it's probably in there, since the "uninitialized" value has to have an appropriate type
<aeth>
Well, I guess SBCL and CCL do the same thing that they do for array default values here.
<aeth>
as in, NIL unless it can't be NIL, in which case it's the appropriate type's 0 (e.g. 0 or 0f0 or 0d0) or #\Nul
<aeth>
lol actually it's #\x in SBCL if I make it of-type character
<aeth>
It's #\Null as I would expect in CCL
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<pillton>
"If the optional type-spec argument is supplied for the variable var, but there is no related expression to be evaluated, var is initialized to an appropriate default value for its type."
<aeth>
This doesn't work for every type because not every type has a default value. e.g. string (surprised it wasn't an empty string) or (integer 3 4)
* pillton
ponders the definition of appropriate.
<aeth>
Actually, I think (integer 3 4) should have an appropriate default value: the number closest to 0 (so in this case, 3) since 0 itself is off limits but would otherwise be the default
<pillton>
For standard classes it could use the prototype.
<aeth>
SBCL seems to think 0 is the reasonable default for (integer 3 4) here, though
<aeth>
It would be nice to have a standard default value and a way to retrieve it given a type specification. So (type-default-value 'integer) would be 0 and (type-default-value '(integer 3 4)) would be 3 (closest to 0) etc. Then you could define your own. Obviously would have to rely on some portability library.
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<aeth>
Even better if it handled types like '(or null foo) and was able to detect that NIL is preferable there even if foo has a default. Would be hard for something like '(or integer character) though.
<no-defun-allowed>
probably could just do the first one in an OR. AND would be fun though
<aeth>
Well, you would want to prefer NIL when NIL was possible. You'd also want to prefer the simplest 0 possible (probably 0 then 0f0 then 0d0 or something) for numbers.
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<aeth>
You'd probably want to prioritize empty sequences, or sequences of default values of the minimum length if 0 is not allowed. Sequence hierarchy would probably be NIL before vector (i.e. #() if empty) before specialized vector (like string's "")
<aeth>
I can see why this wasn't standardized even though there are several places that rely on default values
<aeth>
s/if 0 is not allowed/if length 0 is not allowed/
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<pjb>
aeth: sbcl probably uses the class prototype for initialization.
<pjb>
Note: *class*, not *type*.
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<aeth>
pjb: Type rules would be the hard part to solve, but imo would be worth solving. It would mostly be AND/OR combinations as well as numbers and sequences that would be tricky. Hard, but a finite problem.
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<aeth>
Well, AND might be pretty hard to solve.
<pjb>
as long as you don't use satisfies…
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<aeth>
Satisfies would be impossible to solve here afaik. Would probably just be best to extend deftype at that point.
<pjb>
or just let the user specifies an :initial-element.
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<aeth>
pjb: well, having a method that could override the default for a class would be preferable to a specified initial-element every time imo
<aeth>
Types are trickier. "Closest to 0 in a range and of the simplest type" probably makes the most sense for numbers. "Closest to length 0 and if not length 0 filled with elements of the default" makes the most sense for a sequence type. AND, OR, SATISFIES, etc., might be too hard, although I'd really like to see (or null foo) work at the very least.
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<pillton>
I'm not sure all of this complexity is worth it. What is appropriate depends on the context as is illustrated by finding the maximum element of an empty sequence.
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<aeth>
pillton: But it would be very useful for custom defstructs/defclasses where you provide a type and get a reasonable default value from that automatically, even if no implementation uses it for LOOP, MAKE-ARRAY, and wherever else the standard uses defaults.
<aeth>
Right now the only easy automatic default value is NIL, which requires the type to be (or null ...) or one of the handful of types that supports NIL (list, sequence, symbol, boolean, T, etc.)
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<aeth>
You also see default values in gethash and a few other places (in the function calls themselves), which other macros/functions might want to override in a somewhat smart way.
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<pillton>
For that case you could use the prototype object specified by MOP. (What I and pjb said before).
<pillton>
Structs would be tricky since you can specify storage.
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