varjag has quit [Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)]
wusticality has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<_death>
welp, it's iolib socket stream buffering.. I wasn't aware of it 8 years ago when I wrote this library (maybe it wasn't even there?)
vms14 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<krwq>
_death: would it be hard to get rid of that dependency? it was actually kinda annoying having to build libfixposix
<krwq>
perhaps usocket could replace it
<_death>
well, it's possible to define your own connection classes that follow the protocol.. I think today jmercouris mentioned that usocket doesn't support unix domain sockets though
<_death>
also, apparently iolib exports wrong names for buffering related operators.. maybe not many people tried to use it
emaczen has joined #lisp
<emaczen>
How should we make a thread-safe stream via mutexes such that we can use format and other stream functions as normal?
<emaczen>
Or do we have to wrap each stream function with (with-mutex (mutex) ...)?
<krwq>
_death: wouldn't simple flush or something similar work?
<krwq>
emaczen: wouldn't it make more sense to make a stream non-thread safe and assume whoever uses stream and needs thread safety they will just lock?
<emaczen>
If we have to yes, but wouldn't it be nice to not clutter our code and just replace the destination argument of format to a stream variable that represents a thread-safe stream?
Mr-Potter has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<krwq>
emaczen: the only issue with that if you do multiple writes one after another you will get N locks instead of 1
margaritamike has quit [Quit: Updating details, brb]
margaritamike has joined #lisp
<krwq>
emaczen: besides the only time I can think of writing to a stream in parallel is logging
<emaczen>
krwq: Thats, what I am doing
<krwq>
emaczen: logging or writing in a loop? :P
<emaczen>
logging from several threads
<krwq>
emaczen: I think it makes more sense to put locks in the logging library
<krwq>
emaczen: most of the time you don't need to write to the stream in parallel since it usually is some pre-defined format where writing in parallel won't work
<krwq>
unless you write messages or something
<krwq>
but as I said I'd expect to put locks there instead of the stream
<krwq>
write a macro for locking and there is not much clutter
<krwq>
(with-logging-stream (s))
<krwq>
or something
red-dot has joined #lisp
<emaczen>
krwq: a macro might be a little better than wrapping (with-mutex (mutex) ...) around each stream function but not a whole lot...
<_death>
krwq: the issue is that there are more data in the buffer expected.. it's easy to check using peek-char, but it should really be peek-byte :/
<krwq>
emaczen: I mean are you using anything else than format?
<krwq>
_death: :/
<emaczen>
krwq: probably 99% format
nowhere_man has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
vms14 has joined #lisp
<krwq>
emaczen: perhaps write a (log control-string &rest arguments)?
<emaczen>
krwq: I might do that
<emaczen>
But is there a way to mess with the streams or no?
<emaczen>
I looked through the functions and built-in streams and didn't think of a method
meepdeew has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
amerlyq has joined #lisp
robotoad has joined #lisp
ebrasca has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Essadon has quit [Quit: Qutting]
rumbler31 has joined #lisp
dale has quit [Quit: dale]
dddddd has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
orivej has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
wusticality has joined #lisp
<iqubic>
Is this channel dead?
wusticality has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<sjl>
it's fairly low-volume compared to a lot of other programming language channels, but certainly not dead
<White_Flame>
hmm, a random day's log has ~620 non-join/leave message lines, 300 users
Lord_of_Life has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<White_Flame>
it's certainly more active than others I'm "active" i
<White_Flame>
*in
<p_l>
iqubic: we have varied times of activity
<p_l>
depending on ones timezone it could be pretty low on activity during the day
<p_l>
I think pacific timezones have some of the lower representations?
Lord_of_Life has joined #lisp
<aeth>
iqubic: The activity is fairly evenly split between #lisp #lispgames and #clschool which might make it seem less active than it is
<iqubic>
That's my timezone
hiroaki has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<aeth>
iqubic: Most of the activity was probably in #lispcafe (the off topic channel) today because it's a Sunday, though
<sjl>
Eastern and UTC seemed more active that Pacific to me, though I haven't spent much time idling here in Pacific.
<p_l>
I think significant amounts of people are either in Europe or east coast USA
<White_Flame>
it's also a holiday time
<White_Flame>
tis the season to be idling
<aeth>
right, Dec 24 to Jan 2 or so is a bad time to expect activity on a serious place of the Internet, like here.
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
kotrcka has left #lisp [#lisp]
qaute has joined #lisp
<p_l>
beach: 'morning
iqubic has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
nopf has joined #lisp
iqubic has joined #lisp
emaczen has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
s-geometry has joined #lisp
FreeBirdLjj has joined #lisp
ikki has joined #lisp
akoana has left #lisp ["Leaving"]
SaganMan has joined #lisp
lyf[kde] has joined #lisp
lyf[kde] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
mrcom has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
gravicappa has joined #lisp
wusticality has joined #lisp
<hectorhonn>
what does this error mean in hunchentoot? Wake-for-shutdown connect failed: Socket error in "connect": 10049 (The requested address is not valid in its context.)
sindan has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
terpri has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
SaganMan has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.6]
krwq has joined #lisp
<krwq>
what do you guys think of this: https://pastebin.com/11xUi3wQ basically given an array you can use the same name as a function instead of writing (aref arr 1) you can type (arr 1) - aref has always felt somewhat cumbersome to me
amerlyq has quit [Quit: amerlyq]
<no-defun-allowed>
pretty useful, but also pretty trivial
<p_l>
this reminds me that I wanted to check using array as jump table
<p_l>
want to optimize calling right handler from opcode
wusticality has joined #lisp
rippa has joined #lisp
wusticality has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
froggey has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
froggey has joined #lisp
iqubic has left #lisp ["ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)"]
vms14 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
anewuser has joined #lisp
sindan has joined #lisp
_whitelogger has joined #lisp
space_otter has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<loke>
If anyone wants to try it without downloading a million dependencies.
<savolla>
loke: oh I was trying to figure out how to compile this thing.. thanks for the link :v
TMA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<loke>
To build it, you need to make sure you have Freetype support enabled in McCLIM, and then you need to build and install Maxima separately. Finally, there is a separate build process to convert all the documentation from Texinfo format to a special Lisp markup format.
TMA has joined #lisp
<loke>
All of that is handled by the Appimage.
<savolla>
I don't have any experience with those Appimage. How do I actually run it from terminal?
m0w has joined #lisp
SaganMan has joined #lisp
<jackdaniel>
savolla: did you try ./foo.AppImage ?
<jackdaniel>
that would be my first guess on Unice
<loke>
yes. You have to chmod +x file
<loke>
then ./file
s-geometry has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
<savolla>
okay thanks
wxie has joined #lisp
SaganMan has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
wusticality has joined #lisp
wusticality has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
ggole has joined #lisp
varjag has joined #lisp
dddddd has joined #lisp
logicmoo is now known as dmiles
glv has joined #lisp
orivej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
robdog_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
_whitelogger has joined #lisp
TMA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
bzp has joined #lisp
wusticality has joined #lisp
TMA has joined #lisp
wusticality has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
Zaab1t has quit [Quit: bye bye friends]
pierpal has quit [Quit: Poof]
pierpal has joined #lisp
emar has joined #lisp
n01 has joined #lisp
<bzp>
hello everyone, they have pdf books, to learn how to program in
<bzp>
lisp?
<jackdaniel>
bzp: is pdf a hard requirement?
<jackdaniel>
minion: tell bzp about pcl
<minion>
bzp: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<jackdaniel>
minion: tell bzp about paip
<minion>
bzp: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
<jackdaniel>
minion: tell bzp about gentle
<minion>
bzp: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
n01 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
m0w has joined #lisp
wusticality has joined #lisp
wusticality has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
mathrick has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
makomo has joined #lisp
Selwyn has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
puchacz has joined #lisp
<puchacz>
hi, I serialise things with (format nil "~s" obj), but it does not work cross-package, how can I force package prefixes for all symbols in ~s please?
<beach>
Set *package* to the keyword package.
Essadon has joined #lisp
<Xach>
puchacz: bind *package* to the keyword package before printing
<puchacz>
Xach, beach, thanks
<jackdaniel>
puchacz: with-standard-io-syntax may be worth looking at too
Essadon has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
<puchacz>
jackdaniel, ok, will check, tks
Essadon has joined #lisp
pierpal has quit [Quit: Poof]
pierpal has joined #lisp
jmercouris has joined #lisp
<hjudt>
savolla: i've read both practical common lisp and land of lisp and can recommend both. the second is more fun to read, but both are similar in that they are very "practical".
wusticality has joined #lisp
anamorphic has joined #lisp
Oladon has joined #lisp
<hjudt>
it's just that land of lisp deals with gaming stuff and pcl is more general with regard to app domains. on the other hand, pcl provides more background details.
<hjudt>
it won't hurt to read both; e.g. while pcl has a chapter called "loop for black belts", lol has a nice, more easy to remember chart depicting the syntax of loop.
<hjudt>
paip is also very good, but if you aren't very interested in ai it can be tough.
wusticality has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<jackdaniel>
paip is more about common lisp case studies than ai
<jackdaniel>
(and they are very good because they teach important lessons regarding reasoning about problems)
<beach>
I should re-read the book at some point. I read it when I had a lot less experience with Common Lisp than I do now.
ikki has joined #lisp
<shka__>
furthermore, algorithms described in PAIP can be usefull in "normal" applications
<pfdietz>
"We argue that the resulting language definition is too large for many short-term and medium-term potential applications" -- Brooks and Gabriel on CL, in 1984
<pfdietz>
How times change.
<puchacz>
have we got a bit-set library in quicklisp?
<puchacz>
i.e. 1 - belongs to set, 0 - does not belong to set, everything encoded as a single number
Lord_of_Life_ has joined #lisp
<anamorphic>
Hi I'm experimenting with logical pathnames. I have a function that's like open - it accepts a string or pathname and does translation on pathnames, but internally it needs the native filesystem string. If I want to achieve the same thing in my own open-like function, is this the way to go? (defun my-open (my-filespec) (foo (namestring (translate-logical-pathname my-filespec))))?
<shka__>
puchacz: you really don't need it
<shka__>
puchacz: just stick to integers
<djeis[m]>
puchacz: What would such a library give you beyond what the spec already does?
<shka__>
there is ldb and dpb
<puchacz>
shka__ I want to encode in URL: search in A, search in B etc.
<puchacz>
actually, you guys are right.
<puchacz>
I don't need anything more than standard to implement it :)
<djeis[m]>
And logtest.
<shka__>
yes
Lord_of_Life has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
<shka__>
you can add relevant functions built on top of those but i think that this is trivial enough
Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
<puchacz>
yes, agree
<djeis[m]>
anamorphic: That looks reasonable, but I haven't done much of work with logical pathnames so I could be forgetting something obvious.
<anamorphic>
Cool. They seem like a pretty cool feature
<djeis[m]>
In principle, yea. In practice the pathname system as a whole ends up being pretty implementation-defined and so I avoid relying on it when I can.
<shka__>
anamorphic: the other way is to use defgeneric
seok has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<jasom>
anamorphic: logical pathnames end up having too many pitfalls to be useful.
<jasom>
anamorphic: also, I believe uiop has functions specifically for generating native namestrings
<pfdietz>
Someone changed ansi-tests to use logical pathnames while I wasn't supporting it. This made me sad.
easye has quit [Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)]
<jackdaniel>
pfdietz: that was me (and I plan to revert this change, I just have too many projects to maintain to make it quick), sorry for making you sad
easye has joined #lisp
<jackdaniel>
(probably I should keep quiet and pretend I don't recall the problem :p)
<pfdietz>
It's ok :)
<jackdaniel>
btw, I have a half-baked McCLIM interface to ansi-test (instead of running implementations from bash script they are run from CLIM app via run-program)
<jackdaniel>
ansi-tests°
<jackdaniel>
(speaking of McCLIM – a new progress report has been published on its blog today)
<easye>
logical pathnames are part of ANSI. A lot of CLers use them heavily. So, they need to work.
akoana has joined #lisp
<jackdaniel>
they do, but ansi-test is meant to test also implementations which are not complete
<jackdaniel>
to show directions
<jackdaniel>
so loading code should be as dumb as it goes
<easye>
Agreed.
<jackdaniel>
(and it was misjudgement on my side to change it)
<pfdietz>
Having said that, I would also like ansi-test to be loadable with asdf, for implementations that ARE nearly complete. And I want to separate out some parts of it, like the random testing stuff.
<pfdietz>
Most of my focus recently has been on that part.
<jackdaniel>
I also want to make beyond-ansi test suites executable
<jackdaniel>
pfdietz: did you consider contributing to the repository on common-lisp.net?
<pfdietz>
I've cloned my own copy, but of course I'd like to avoid unnecessary forking.
<jackdaniel>
easye: my changes came before that (3y ago)
<easye>
A subtopic of beyond-ansi/ should definitely cover *reasonable* logical pathname assumptions that make the spec implementable.
<pfdietz>
IIRC, LPNs are required to be case insensitive. That makes them largely useless.
<jackdaniel>
easye: yes, that's what I had in mind - to have a test suite which provides tests for pathnames which go beyond what is specified
Oladon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<easye>
jackdaniel: I see some comments about potential use of UIOP. What is the current policy for UIOP dependencies in the ansi-tests suite? I would assume one doesn't rely on it. But what about "under" beyond-ansi?
<easye>
Wouldn't any beyond-ansi implementation be expected to chase ASDF3?
<jackdaniel>
having it asdf-loadable is fine, but depending on asdf (or uiop) is something I'm not willing to do
Oladon has joined #lisp
<easye>
jackdaniel: Thanks for the clarification on UIOP.
<jackdaniel>
putting aside my doubts about code quality there UIOP is problematic precisely because asdf depends on it. i.e it won't be updated to newest version in quicklisp, because asdf:find-system always finds uiop
* easye
hacked a few things to make ansi-tests loadable in ABCL with ASDF2. Mebbe there is a more standard way of doin' things that I should merge into the Bear.
<jackdaniel>
pfdietz: I've send you an invitation on ansi-test project group on common-lisp.net
wusticality has joined #lisp
<pfdietz>
Not remembering how to even log in to that.
<anamorphic>
In mcclim, when you're prompted for input, how do you "enter" text without needing to use the mouse to click "OK"?
<anamorphic>
(using the stream test from the demos)
wusticality has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<jackdaniel>
it works for dialog input
<jackdaniel>
so to have it try accepting-values tests
<anamorphic>
OK I tried accepting values test, in the interactor, I typed Describe, then *features* and then C-[ and the message buffer says C-[ is unbound, but C-] works for abort
<jackdaniel>
that works for me in accepting-values forms. regading other places, it may be worth considering making it work wherever it makes sense
nsrahmad has joined #lisp
gjvc has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
bzp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
pierpal has quit [Quit: Poof]
pierpal has joined #lisp
SaganMan has joined #lisp
gxt has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
yvy has joined #lisp
terpri has joined #lisp
wusticality has joined #lisp
marvin2 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
wusticality has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
amerlyq has joined #lisp
hiroaki has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
krwq has joined #lisp
yvy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
rozenglass has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
krwq has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
shifty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
asarch has joined #lisp
nsrahmad has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
marvin2 has joined #lisp
krwq has joined #lisp
undiscovered has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
orivej has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
loli has joined #lisp
jmercouris has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
wusticality has joined #lisp
SaganMan has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.6]
wusticality has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
jack_rabbit_ has joined #lisp
makomo has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
m0w has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
jack_rabbit_ is now known as jack_rabbit
nowhere_man has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
Svenj has joined #lisp
anamorphic has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
jcowan has joined #lisp
wusticality has joined #lisp
<p_l>
pfdietz: majority OSes though are case insensitive by default :<
wusticality has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<jcowan>
jackdaniel: I'd say it would be fine to call a January release "Yule". The Old English month names for December and January were Ærragēola ("ere Yule") and Æfterragēola ("after Yule"). So get it out the door by Jan 31 and you're fine.
orivej has joined #lisp
gravicappa has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
emaczen has joined #lisp
wigust- has joined #lisp
jack_rabbit has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
wigust has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
wusticality has joined #lisp
jmercouris has joined #lisp
jack_rabbit has joined #lisp
ggole has quit [Quit: ggole]
asarch has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
asarch_ has joined #lisp
<jackdaniel>
jcowan: heh. nice idea. I've already said though I won't call it that. otoh I have plenty of pagan festival and night names in my sleeve, so no worries ;-)
<jcowan>
Okay, maybe next year!
<jackdaniel>
I'm not bound by dates anyway, code names are just that. I want to call the next release "Kupala Night"
anamorphic has joined #lisp
orivej has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
notzmv has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
orivej has joined #lisp
notzmv has joined #lisp
buffergn0me has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
mathrick has joined #lisp
<jmercouris>
why do they have to be pagan festival and night names?
buffergn0me has joined #lisp
<jmercouris>
why not just use version numbers, like everyone else
<jackdaniel>
they do not have to be, I want them to be
<jackdaniel>
sorry if I don't feet in "like everybody else" taste. either way I'm out for today, happy new year everybody :-)
<jmercouris>
pjb: speak for yourself, I am definitely a number
<jmercouris>
pjb: speak for yourself, I am definitely a number
<jmercouris>
I always disliked software that used names as scheme instead of numbers, Ubuntu comes to mind
<jmercouris>
but since I am not the primary developer, nor have I contributed really anything to McClim, I feel I have no right to say what should be done
<djeis[m]>
I mean, both McClim and Ubuntu have version numbers alongside the names. What's wrong with both?
JetJej has quit [Quit: [Quit]]
verisimilitude has joined #lisp
nowhere_man has joined #lisp
<jackdaniel>
I like to celebrate a little when we release things for which I devote a considerable chunk of my time, that's one of many forms of it :)
<jmercouris>
Like I said, I have no right to tell you what to do, but I do have a right to free speech :D
<jmercouris>
just expressing that I think it is confusing for users, and adds no value
<jcowan>
free speech on freenode
<jmercouris>
exactly
<jcowan>
(unless it's spam)
irdr has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<pfdietz>
"I am not a number, I am a free man." (is immediately gc-ed)
<jmercouris>
I mean, in the worst case I can join #1992860233424596 and talk there
<jcowan>
I tried to get the working group to call the new standard something less boring than the Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme, but tradition prevailed.
<jmercouris>
humans are tough sometimes
<jcowan>
"I am a not a statistic!" "Very true. You are a datum."
<jcowan>
and there are worse things than maintaining continuity with a tradition that goes back to 1960
<jmercouris>
I'm going to call v1.3 of Next "Flaming Gorilla"
<pfdietz>
Just go to the Revised ^omega Standard and be done with it.
<jmercouris>
or maybe "Flamingo Gorilla"
<jcowan>
I think the latter is better
<jmercouris>
everyone will be asking, what does "Flamingo Gorilla" mean? and just like canonical, I will remain completely silent on the topic
<jmercouris>
"I beg your pardon?" "were you asking something?"
<aeth>
jcowan: Anti-spam measures are... free speech but not too much. Free speech but rate limited?
<jmercouris>
in the release notes I'll put something like "Increased security vulnerabilities"
<jmercouris>
I mean, in real life free speech is rate limited by how fast you can physically talk
<jmercouris>
maybe there should be something similar for Freenode, it takes the average speed someone can talk, calculates how long it would take for them to say a sentence, and limits them to that as the max speed
<aeth>
jmercouris: Until I have neural implants implanted in everyone (including myself) so that I can talk as quickly as possible to them.
<verisimilitude>
It's always amusing to be in a much more lax place and then see a rather restricted area mention it's great freedom.
<verisimilitude>
It reminds me of when I read a news article championing Reddit as some Wild West where anything goes.
<jmercouris>
you are still limited in how quickly you can talk, unless you can transmit a gray stream of qualia that can be understood by others
<jcowan>
I certainly can't, because qualia. do. not. exist.
<jmercouris>
however, given the current theories, it is presumed that qualia are brain specific, so you'll still be limited by Broca's area
<pfdietz>
As someone who used usenet, that characterization of Reddit is funny.
<jcowan>
I'm not sure who coined the name "Report on the algorithmic language ALGOL 60", probably Peter Naur (the N in BNF, which was designed for the report)
<pjb>
They did a lot of reports and memos at that time…
m0w has joined #lisp
<jcowan>
They did.
dmiles has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
travv0 has joined #lisp
<verisimilitude>
It sure would be nice if reports and memos and documentation were still common.
<jmercouris>
They sure are still common
<jmercouris>
they've just been flooded and lost amidst the eternal september the whole internet has undergone
<verisimilitude>
Instead, if you tell a program ostensibly implementing a standard, you'll get asked what standard, they were just doing whatever program Y does incorrectly.
<jmercouris>
most of the bandwidth is used for things like youtube and poop emojis rather than research or learning...
<verisimilitude>
Well, the maintainers of a program, rather.
<jmercouris>
with regards to documentation, just do your part, prosletyize when necessary and hope for the best
<jmercouris>
anwyays, this is a horse far too beaten
<jmercouris>
let it rest
anewuser has joined #lisp
<jmercouris>
jcowan: how do you know qualia don't exist? its a human abstraction, are you instead saying it is an invalid abstraction? e.g. the process does not take place?
travv0 has quit [Client Quit]
<jcowan>
I'm saying that qualia theory is like Gremlin Theory #27, which says that inside every internal combustion engine there are 27 imperceptible gremlins, without which the engine won't go. There is no disproving this theory, but there is no reason to accept it either.
<verisimilitude>
That's not a real theory.
<jmercouris>
well, its a hypothesis
<jcowan>
So I say they do not exist because I see no evidence that compels me to accept them.
<jcowan>
they = qualia or gremlins, as you please
<jasom>
IIRC Minsky argued against the existence of qualia
<verisimilitude>
You can go on and on about academic make-believe all you want, but the reality is many people understand what's reasonable and what's not.
<jmercouris>
probably it is an incorrect explanation for what thoughts are and how they work, yes
<jasom>
(just a vain attempt to bring this back to on-topic)
<jmercouris>
but it is just a placeholder, no other word exists that I could have used
<verisimilitude>
The answer to ``That depends on what the meaning of ``is'' is.'' is to threaten to break the fellow's legs if it continues, rather than argue.
<jcowan>
verisimilitude: I agree. Qualia are not reasonable.
travv0 has joined #lisp
<jcowan>
The argumentum ad baculum
<jcowan>
Dr Johnson tried to refute Berkeley's idealism by kicking a large stone "until his foot rebounded from it".
<jmercouris>
:D that's a good quote, I like it
<jcowan>
"Sir, we *know* our will is free, and there's an end on it."
rumbler31 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
krwq has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
travv0 has quit [Quit: leaving]
verisimilitude has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
verisimilitude has joined #lisp
irdr has joined #lisp
verisimilitude has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dmiles has joined #lisp
LiamH has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
verisimilitude has joined #lisp
hiroaki has joined #lisp
seok has joined #lisp
<seok>
how do I highlight line with error on slime?
<seok>
I am getting (dexador::get) is unbound
<seok>
rather odd
verisimilitude has quit [Remote host closed the connection]