<vms14>
atm I see that it's really fun to work with
<phoe>
Do you use slime?
<pjb>
vms14: then you compile the prototype, and you get a production system.
<nchambers>
vms14: me too. i just wrote my first lisp and really enjoyed it
<vms14>
I've installed slime with sblc
<nchambers>
working on a rewrite + stdlib atm
<vms14>
and clisp
<phoe>
vms14: good. 50% of all Lisp goodness comes from a proper interactive environment such as slime.
<vms14>
I see
<vms14>
I was using vi, because I know that vi is part of posix standard
<vms14>
so vi will be whenever you have a posix system
<vms14>
but I use emacs just because slime
<vms14>
I really liked the first time I've tried emacs with elisp, how you have a file and you can directly execute parts of the file
<vms14>
I like lisp and I feel I should learn it
<vms14>
I've tried quicklisp to install clx, It's failing when it tries to open connection to the display
<vms14>
saying something about sockets
<phoe>
vms14: what's the error?
<vms14>
I'd like to use the ffi
<phoe>
Give us the stacktrace.
<phoe>
vms14: Lisp and Unix are conflicting concepts. They don't exactly map to each other and the Lisp philosophy is richer than the Unix one.
<phoe>
In Unix, everything is a file and therefore a stream of bytes. That's a very primitive concept compared to Lisp's object-oriented and typed system.
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<vms14>
let me check
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<vms14>
Name service error in "getaddrinfo": 8 (hostname nor servname provided, or not known)
<vms14>
[Condition of type SB-BSD-SOCKETS:HOST-NOT-FOUND-ERROR]
<vms14>
this is
<vms14>
I know a bit of xlib
<vms14>
this happens when I try to open the display, Xorg works with sockets in a server-client model
<vms14>
btw this is netbsd
<vms14>
It seems that the sockets are having a problem to find the host
<vms14>
(xlib:open-display nil) ; this is what makes it crash
<vms14>
in xlib with C if you put XOpenDisplay(null); it connects to the host machine
<vms14>
#<XLIB:DISPLAY :0 (The Xorg Foundation R11804000)>
<phoe>
<3
<vms14>
ty xD
<phoe>
It lives then
<vms14>
I had a lot of problems with libraries and stuff in some programming languages in netbsd
<vms14>
so I was expecting the same here
<phoe>
Note: I'm not a XLIB person, so I can't provide any sane support for it
<vms14>
you did
<vms14>
xD
<vms14>
thanks a lot man
<vms14>
now I know that it was because I'm dumb so no problem
<vms14>
btw I still trying to figure why lispers talk so high of this language
<vms14>
I know nothing and I guess it's a thing I'll appreciate when I'll understand the language
<vms14>
do you use it for real work?
<vms14>
what limits has lisp compared to other languages?
<phoe>
Limits? What do you mean?
<vms14>
idk really, I just want to take some info about lisp
<phoe>
It's garbage-collected, so it may have some issues meeting hard real-time requirements
<vms14>
I saw that it can compete with C if you write the program with some things in mind
<phoe>
Lisp applications are made by bundling the Lisp runtime with each application, so a hello-world app may take multiple megabytes of size (which isn't an issue nowadays)
<phoe>
Speed is decent, especially with highly optimized compilers like SBCL
<phoe>
Even more if you decide to hand-write the hottest parts of code in assembly (which SBCL allows)
<vms14>
the first thing I wanted from lisp is to steal concepts
<phoe>
Steal what kinds of concepts?
<vms14>
but I guess I'll love it so much so I won't scape
<phoe>
Programming languages have been stealing concepts from Lisp since 1960s
<vms14>
I wanted to do a shit toy language
<vms14>
and someday I found the existence of lisp
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<phoe>
oh, that's doable - Lisp is an easy language to implement an interpreter from
<vms14>
also, they say that lisp will change your mind
<vms14>
is that real?
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<phoe>
It certainly broadens some horizons, yes
<phoe>
Myself I was stuck in the mindset that languages are immutable and you always need to adapt problems to languages, well, perhaps switch a language for a different one
<phoe>
And Lisp taught me that it's possible to bend languages to problems in addition to the other way around.
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<vms14>
this is what I've read in some posts
<vms14>
that you adapt the language to the program
<vms14>
how many time you have with lisp?
<vms14>
I just started, so meh
<vms14>
atm I'm comparing the difference between lisp and C in syntax
<vms14>
I see that lisp is really fun
<phoe>
Time? Hmm
<phoe>
I've been doing it for... four years I think
<phoe>
And the syntax is absolutely different
<vms14>
what books I should read?
<vms14>
I need to take a book and stick with it
<phoe>
minion: tell vms14 about pcl
<minion>
vms14: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<pjb>
vms14: PAIP, LISP.
<phoe>
minion: tell vms14 about gentle
<minion>
vms14: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
<phoe>
Yep, that's one way to get rid of implicit stack.
<phoe>
The value to be returned is explicitly passed as a function argument.
<vms14>
So I don't need to care about where goes the value?
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<vms14>
just to rely that this value will be changed
<phoe>
You need to - in order to understand it.
<equwal>
The call stack is still there, it is just one item long.
<phoe>
Later, you can forget it.
<vms14>
well, I'll do tests later and I'll understand it sooner or later
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<vms14>
The value to be returned is explicitly passed as a function argument.
<vms14>
ok, that was
<equwal>
Read the section in SICP where they go though how the tracing works and the way that the shape of it gives away the tail recursion or lack of it. Eventually you will be able to predict what the traces will look like and you'll be ready to go.
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<vms14>
ok
<vms14>
I have the sicp book too xD
<vms14>
I've tried this, but not's working
<vms14>
(defun oh (x) (if (= x 0) `oh (oh (- x 1))))
<vms14>
(oh 3)
<vms14>
OH
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<equwal>
lol
<vms14>
ah it's working xD
<vms14>
(defun oh (x) (if (= x 0) x (oh (- x 1))))
<equwal>
Backquotes are shorthand for list quoting. `(x ,y) <-> (list 'x y)
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<vms14>
yes, I've thought I'll see the process or something
<vms14>
but now I understand that it won't return anything until finished this recursion
<vms14>
I need to test more and understand it better
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<asarch>
Guten Tag, Herr beach!
<asarch>
Wie geht's Ihnen?
<beach>
Es geht gut, danke.
<beach>
But I don't know why you speak to me in German. That's only my fourth language.
<asarch>
Toll!
<asarch>
Deutsch ist eine gute Sprache, nicht wahr?
<beach>
Sehr gut.
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<akoana>
laut lachend
<no-defun-allowed>
Γεια σου, beach
<beach>
Ouch, that's not one of my languages.
<no-defun-allowed>
that's greek, "hello, beach"
<beach>
I could imagine.
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<no-defun-allowed>
i set up xmodmap to switch in and out of greek using alt-space and i realised i have little use for it ):
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<emaczen>
Do we call #'cffi:foreign-funcall-pointer just like cffi:foreign-funcall but with a function pointer as the first argument instead of the string name?
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<emaczen>
nvm, I was looking at an old manual and it had the function parameter listing
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<jcowan>
There are about 7000 languages, so nobody speaks more than a vanishingly small fraction of them
<jcowan>
How important (widely used, whatever) is ECL as an implementation?
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<verisimilitude>
ECL is one of the big implementations, I think, jcowan.
<verisimilitude>
The important thing about programming languages is most of them aren't worth learning, also.
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<jcowan>
No, I mean human spoken languages
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<jcowan>
they too are dying off fast
<jcowan>
about one every two weeks, and the half-life at present is about 80 years (one maximum human lifetime)
<beach>
jcowan: You should ask jackdaniel about ECL. He is the current maintainer.
<jcowan>
Probably not unbiased then (any more than I am about R7RS)
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<beach>
What is the reason for your question?
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<jcowan>
How bad would it be if a program ran on SBCL, CMUCL, and CCL, but not ECL. (No, it can't be made portable easily.)
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<beach>
I think CMUCL is less important than ECL.
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<verisimilitude>
It would be bad in any case, jcowan.
<verisimilitude>
What manner of program is this?
<verisimilitude>
As a good baseline, you want to make a list of implementations and try to get something working on at least four or five before you release it.
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<jcowan>
jackdaniel: trying to PM you, are you available for them?
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<fouric>
would someone quickly remind me how to check to see if an object is an instance of the class named by a given symbol
<fouric>
i already found that, tried both (typep 'class obj) and (typep (find-class 'class) obj)
<fouric>
)
<fouric>
wait, did i reverse the arguments
<no-defun-allowed>
(typep instance 'class-name)
<beach>
You need to read the page. (typep <object> '<class-name>)
<fouric>
ty
<beach>
ywlcm
<fouric>
just trying to save you screen real estate :)
<fouric>
oooooh i see why i was confused
<fouric>
i was getting "bad thing to be a type specifier: #<class-name {addr}>"
<fouric>
so i read the class-name part and thought that i had the args in the correct positions but was passing in the wrong thing
* fouric
will read error messages more carefully next time
<jcowan>
I'm surprised that a class object is a type specifier
<jcowan>
it breaks the idea that a type specifier is the name of a type, as a class is not its own name
<beach>
Where did such an idea come from?
<jackdaniel>
jcowan: I will be around in ~8h from now
<jcowan>
me, I suppose
<jcowan>
ah, okay, ttyt
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<phoe>
Heyyy
<phoe>
jcowan: I was surprised to notice the same thing
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<phoe>
Class *objects* are valid type specifiers indeed.
<phoe>
And it's the only possible way when you have classes that don't have globally bound names. TYPE-OF instances of such classes have no name to return - so they have to return the class objects.
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<pjb>
jcowan: If you have a CL program that doesn't work on a CL implementation, then it is VERY BAD. Because it means that you are at the mercy of the implementers of the implementations where it works. You are using implementation dependent behavior, and eg. the sbcl implementation changes every month! You are basically playing russian roulette every month with your program!
<pjb>
jcowan: now, you can mitigate the problem, by structuring your code into two parts, one module that is 100% conforming, and one module that is implementation dependent. This way, at least the 100% conforming module can run everywhere. Put the core functionality in there.
<pjb>
jcowan: notice that there is no type object in CL. Types are not first class objects in CL since they don't exist. Only type specifiers. Notice also that there are multiple type specifiers for a single type. For example: (member 42) and (integer 42 42) specify the same type. Now, clase objects ARE type objects! They're the only ones in CL. class names are type specifiers, but they have a real type object, the class object.
<pjb>
objects are valid specifiers for themselves in general.
<pjb>
For example a string designer such as NIL designates the string "NIL". The string "NIL" designates the string "NIL itself too!
<pjb>
(but then, the string "NIL" too; this should surprise you more!)
<pjb>
So, #1="NIL" can designate #2="NIL" and #2="NIL" can designate #1#, or #2#.
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<phoe>
pjb: you are no longer talking about type specifiers, are you?
<phoe>
Because "NIL" is not a type specifier.
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<pjb>
phoe: I was talking about string specifiers!
<beach>
He seems to have drifted into designators.
<pjb>
Yes.
<pjb>
They're the same kind of things.
<beach>
Is that so?
<pjb>
It's only because there is no actual type object in CL they use the term specifier instead of designator.
<phoe>
Designators, yes. I don't think the term "designator" is fully equal to "specifier".
<phoe>
Especially since "specifier" is not defined in the CLHS glossary.
<pjb>
For example, for classes, there's the notion of class designator, since class objects exist.
<phoe>
So when you say specifier, I assume a type specifier, since that's the closest thing defined by CLHS.
<pjb>
Note the definitions for type specifier and class designator: both are of the form: "an X that denotes a Y".
<pjb>
If two terms have the same definition, then they are the same thing.
<pjb>
The only difference, is that in one case, the Y is a first class lisp object, and in the other case, the Y is not.
<phoe>
Sure, for classes, but you don't have a string specifier.
<_death>
extensional argument about terms denoting extensional concepts
<pjb>
phoe: there's no class specifier, there's class designators, like string designators.
<pjb>
_death: :-) this is #lisp (cf. topic).
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<phoe>
Hm.
<phoe>
I have a generic function that has N mandatory arguments.
<phoe>
I have N specializers - either class objects or EQL-specializer objects.
<phoe>
I want to get a method that would get called if I called the GF with objects of these classes/specializers.
<phoe>
COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS won't help me because I have classes, not instances of these classes.
<pjb>
If you set :start and :end you don't need :count.
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<phoe>
Is (find-method #'print-object '() (list (list (find-class t)) (list (find-class t)))) a valid FIND-METHOD call?
<phoe>
I mean, the nested lists?
<phoe>
I thought that (find-method #'print-object '() (list (find-class t) (find-class t))) was valid, but surprisingly, the former also works on SBCL.
<shka_>
hmmmm
<shka_>
phoe: no idea if it is valid, but using find-method with find-class t sounds like you wanted to use other method
<phoe>
It's an example.
<phoe>
My question is if using nested lists in FIND-METHOD's specializer argument is standard.
<shka_>
i have no idea, sorry :(
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<Bike>
phoe: those lists aren't specializers, so no
<Bike>
how the heck did you even run into this
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<phoe>
Bike: writing my PROTEST library allows me to encounter all sorts of weird edge cases
<phoe>
including this one that took me half an hour to debug
<phoe>
I expected FIND-METHOD to err if invalid specializers were passed to it
<phoe>
and, well, it didn't
<Bike>
sbcl has some kind of internal "parsing" thing going on, so you can pass (eql foo) and stuff too
<Bike>
which i'm pretty sure is not standard
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<elderK>
Lo all :)
<phoe>
heyyy
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<phoe>
siiigh
<phoe>
time to write even more tests
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<pfdietz>
The standard does not require FIND-METHOD to signal an error if the specializers are malformed. It does if the specializer list isn't of the proper length, and errorp is true.
<phoe>
Huh.
<pfdietz>
Having said that, sbcl signalling an error would be good.
<phoe>
That's correct, though very counterintuitive to me.
<pfdietz>
The standard fails to require all sorts of error checks.
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<phoe>
Hey. I just found a bug in my tests by finding a bug in my library by finding a bug in my tests.
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<pjb>
phoe: there's an errorp optional parameter to find-method.
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<phoe>
pjb: that's not what I am asking.
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<pjb>
phoe: it's probably valid: find-method searches then for an EQL specifier with those cons objects. Not found -> NIL. :errorp t -> error.
<phoe>
pjb: (eql #<BUILT-IN-CLASS T>) is not equivalent to (#<BUILT-IN-CLASS T>).
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<pjb>
phoe: But (#<BUILT-IN-CLASS T>) is not #<BUILT-IN-CLASS T>.
<pjb>
(find-method #'print-object '() (list (list (find-class t)) (list (find-class t)))) is a valid call, you're looking for 2 EQL specializers.
<phoe>
;=> (PROGN (IF T (PRINT "https://foo/bar") (PRINT "false")))
<jmercouris>
phoe: that also works, thanks
<_death>
`(elisp code here ,(common lisp code here))
<jmercouris>
do you mean backtick?
<jmercouris>
ok, is a backquote a backtick?
<jmercouris>
ok looked it up, they are the same, I see now what you mean
<_death>
backquote is backquote.. that's how it's called in Common Lisp
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<jmercouris>
I'm used to the term backtick, I'll have to remember its called backquote in those context, thanks
<jmercouris>
s/those/this
<jcowan>
These are all nicknames; its internationally standardized name is GRAVE ACCENT.
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<jcowan>
pjb: Your argument (like many of your arguments) proves too much. CL programs that use threads or sockets are commonplace. Using a shim library makes them reasonably portable, but you are still "at the mercy of the implementers" in the sense that any or indeed all of them could remove either functionality next week.
<jcowan>
There is a difference between non-standardized behavior and undocumented behavior. My author is not proposing to rely on the latter in any way.
<_death>
I suppose some elisp syntax won't fit so well.. so you could use CL syntax and use an elisp pprint dispatch table
<jmercouris>
_death: I've already encountered some fun issues
<jmercouris>
_death: note how the quotes around false are missing
<jmercouris>
must have something to do with the format
<_death>
shouldn't use ~A for that.. use PPRINT
<jmercouris>
I don't want it to print to the repl though, I just want the out
<jmercouris>
I mean string value, sorry
<_death>
you know PPRINT takes a stream?
<jmercouris>
no I don't for some reason emacs is being beligerent
<jmercouris>
it's not showing me the lambda list in the echo area
<jmercouris>
time to restart the inferior lisp
<jmercouris>
I see the optional stream now
<_death>
if you want to generate and pretty print code, you should get to know the pretty printer a bit better.. I recommend the hyperspec and chapter 27 in CLtL2.. perhaps also Waters's Lisp Pointers articles
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<dim>
if I (push :pgloader-image *features*) from a file where then I call sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die, should I expect the image built as a result to have #+pgloader-image?
<jackdaniel>
dim: yes, doesn't it work like expected?
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<dim>
well not really, I will have to do more testing
<dim>
basically I want some handler-bind, lparallel:task-handler-bind and handler-case to act differently when in an interactive SLIME session and when in an image, to help me with debug facilities (empty condition handling) and to print something non-interactive when /usr/bin/pgloader is being used by a non CL developer
<dim>
seems I'm missing some things here and there still in the new save.lisp that I intend to use instead of buildapp when it's ready
<dim>
anyway, time to get off-screen now, I'll see about that tomorrow
<dim>
gn!
<jackdaniel>
good night \p
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<sjl>
Is there something like POSITION-IF that would give me a list of ALL positions that satisfy the predicate, instead of just the first?
<sjl>
(I can (already have) easily write my own, just wondering if there's something clever built-in I could use)
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<permagreen>
I don't think so, but I'm far from an expert