<desvox>
also the first comment is "it looks like lisp!" and HAAAAAAAAA anyone who writes lisp anywhere near that needs to have their computers taken away
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<no-defun-allowed>
in lisp at least that kinda thing doesn't look like a cat sat on your keyboard though
<no-defun-allowed>
it's almost as if...lambdas are half important and aren't munted to hell in cl
<desvox>
*gasp*
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<no-defun-allowed>
then again if you want to do fp in python you may as well mow your lawn with your teeth
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<White_Flame>
desvox: that actually reminds me more of javascript
<White_Flame>
especially with the imports being passed as parameters
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<fouric>
Quicklisp is refusing to load any of my local projects, complaining that it can't locate them.
<fouric>
I have symlinks from Quicklisp's local-projects/ dir to my projects
<fouric>
the ASD files are in place
<fouric>
the system definitions are correct, because i just loaded them
<fouric>
QL can install projects from the official repo
<fouric>
...and everything was working until i reinstalled QL
<fouric>
any suggestions?
<fouric>
(i mean, i'm probably doing something silly, but i can't think of what it is)
<fouric>
hmmm, and ql:register-local-projects hangs
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<beach>
Wild guess: circular symlinks?
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<no-defun-allowed>
also, checked you can cd into the symlinked directory? i'm pretty bad at ln and i get symlinks which go nowhere
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<no-defun-allowed>
how do i give a package a nickname?
<no-defun-allowed>
also, is it a nickname? i'm looking for the mapping that makes COMMON-LISP-USER into CL-USER i suppose
<no-defun-allowed>
oh, i thought it wasn't actually in the standard. thanks
<White_Flame>
package local nicknames aren't in the standard. Standard nicknames are still global
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<no-defun-allowed>
right, thanks, that's much clearer
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<fouric>
i have cd'ed into the symlinked directories, but ty for the suggestion
<fouric>
how would i check that? they're certainly not immediately recursive
<fouric>
i don't *think* that the symlinks are circular
<flip214>
fouric: brute-force test is "find . -follow" ;)
<flip214>
my find then gives "find: File system loop detected;"
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<schweers>
Given (defvar *foo* ... ), will (multiple-value-bind (*foo*) ... ) do the same as let?
<schweers>
The hyperspec says that the variable binding created are exical unless special declarations are specified. I’m not sure if that covers DEFVAR, or if I need extra declarations inside the M-V-B.
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<jackdaniel>
schweers: defvar declares variable special
<schweers>
I know, I’m just a little confused by the wording in the hyperspec, as to whether that is sufficient.
<jackdaniel>
so (defvar *foo* 3) (defun bar (*foo*) (call-something-else)) (bar 14) ; ←← bar will bind variable *foo* to 14
<schweers>
Huh, interesting use of special variables :D Thanks!
<schweers>
The thing is, in sbcl is looks good, I wanted to know if I can rely on this.
<jackdaniel>
you can, when defvar / defparameter the compiler "must recognize the name has been proclaimed special"
<Odin->
Having both dynamic and lexical bindings is kinda nutty.
<Odin->
Just sayin'.
<jackdaniel>
estabilishing dynamic context saves you from a nutty api with gazzilion arguments carries just to pass to next function
<jackdaniel>
s/carries/carried/
<Odin->
I'm not saying it's not useful.
<jackdaniel>
I know, I'm just noting, that alternative may be worse (nut-wise)
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<beach>
So many things are nutty. Multiple inheritance, multiple dispatch, first-class packages, first-class symbols, closures. You name it.
<Odin->
beach: I'd also suggest the ability to switch out the readtable counts.
<beach>
Definitely.
<Odin->
Nutty isn't bad, it's just distinctive.
<jackdaniel>
imo it is the way someone uses tools in the box defines whenever code is nutty or not (not the tools themself)
<Odin->
jackdaniel: Well, sure. But I've also found it causes a bit of friction when you're dealing with other languages and you're used to having all these (crazy) options that suddenly just aren't there. :)
<beach>
Don't deal with other languages then!
* splittist
finds it hard not to think of Austin Powers when faced with "nutty"
* Odin-
has never seen even one of the Austin Powers films.
<jackdaniel>
sure, dropping to use assembler after you are used to have functions may be tedious, same goes for dropping to C after you are used to closures and when dropping to CL when you are used to monads/hygienic macros/whatever common lisp doesn't seem to have
<jackdaniel>
afair Paul Graham called it a blub paradox
<Odin->
beach: If only that were an option.
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<beach>
It may be a tough choice, but it is always an option.
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<atgreen>
good morning.. I'm looking for something like mapcar that only accumulates non-null results - like a filter. Is there something in the language already for that?
<otwieracz>
remove nil. :)
<beach>
atgreen: (loop for element in list when (something element) collect it)
<atgreen>
thanks... I think 'remove-if' is probably what I want.
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<atgreen>
such a huge language..
<TMA>
atgreen: see also MAPCAN
<beach>
Well, if you are not going to process your element, then (remove nil ...) works as otwieracz suggested.
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<atgreen>
I'm going to perform a test, and remove those that fail
<beach>
I see.
<beach>
That's not quite "like mapcar" which would keep the processed elements.
<shka__>
just use remove, remove-if, remove-if-not or whatever works
<shka__>
or you can loop
<shka__>
which also works
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<atgreen>
beach: I guess I wasn't clear... I should have said "but only" instead of "that only"?
<beach>
atgreen: Both those descriptions should like (remove nil (mapcar #'fun list))
<beach>
i.e. FUN would be applied to the elements before they are collected.
<beach>
But I understand what you mean now.
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<flip214>
Can I ask CFFI whether it found a function (during runtime, because of save/load image!), to provide some fallback?
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<flip214>
Or is having a HANDLER-CASE or similar around it the best I can do?
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<ogamita>
flip214: you can ask.
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<jackdaniel>
flip214: cffi doesn't have such functionality
<jackdaniel>
you can't also depend on a specific condition across implementation (it simply calls underlying implementation thing)
<jackdaniel>
implementations*
<jackdaniel>
(as a side note: ecl has defla macro - define lisp alternative - in its ffi)
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<ogamita>
Yes, you can look at cffi::%foreign-funcall to see how it finds the function. It's implementation-dependant.
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<flip214>
ogamita: ack, thanks.
<flip214>
I now do a version check of the library used.
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<ogamita>
flip214: for portability, you may use dlopen and dlsym directly.
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<flip214>
Is there a CFFI type for uint64_t?
<flip214>
Or would I specify that as (unsigned-byte 64) in DEFCFUN?
<jackdaniel>
flip214: there is
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<jackdaniel>
:uint64
<jackdaniel>
there are variants for 8, 16, 32 and 64
<Odin->
Aren't there types corresponding to all the standard C inttypes?
<flip214>
jackdaniel: ah, thanks. didn't see that in (define-type-mapping)
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<jackdaniel>
Odin-: fixed-width integer types were added in C99
<jackdaniel>
ANSI C defines only short int, int, long int and long long afair, and how many bits are assigned to each is platform dependent
<jackdaniel>
most notably unix and windows disagree on what is long int on 64 bit platforms
<jackdaniel>
s/ANSI C/ANSI C89/
<jackdaniel>
flip214: when I was poking cffi api I've found examples tests/ directory very useful
<Odin->
jackdaniel: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe ISO 9899 superseded ANSI X3.159...
<jackdaniel>
examples in tests/ directory *
<jackdaniel>
I don't know these numbers, so I can't correct you nor confirm
<Odin->
jackdaniel: IOW, yes, but that _is_ the standard. :p
<jackdaniel>
you have many platforms and different standard coverage
<jackdaniel>
afaik C had even newer standard than c99
<Odin->
(Although they're up to 2018 by now.)
<jackdaniel>
which is not fully supported by gcc, clang, msvc etc
<jackdaniel>
c99 has partial support in many compilers (i.e tcc aka tiny c compiler doesn't support complex float type)
<Odin->
jackdaniel: That doesn't change the fact that there is a standard set of integer types.
<jackdaniel>
so we may declare that all that is obsolete and stop caring, but that would be greatly impractical approach
<neirac>
I'm using ccl, I just need a stacked area plot
<neirac>
jackdaniel thanks, I'll take a look
<jackdaniel>
but I think it may not have stacked area plots implemented
<jackdaniel>
if you want a toolbox from which you could build whichever chart you desire looking at McCLIM may be a good idea
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<neirac>
jackdaniel awesome lib!, I'll use it and settle for bar charts. I'll check McCLIM out of curiosity
<jackdaniel>
nb: that would be a nice project to write a library explicitly for plotting in McCLIM (and not overly hard)
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<neirac>
beach McCLIM looks pretty good, I saw also climacs is that discontinued? not able to reach cvs
<beach>
neirac: It's in Quicklisp I think.
<beach>
neirac: But I am not working on (first) Climacs anymore. The plan is for Second Climacs, a significant improvement.
<neirac>
beach awesome is there a repo to check out Climacs 2 ?
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<neirac>
jackdaniel have you used adw-charting ? I'm trying some examples from there but fails. I'm using quicklisp for loading :adw-charting-google
<jackdaniel>
I did a few months back
<jackdaniel>
uint: are you around? (uint wrote a tool which uses it)
<neirac>
I'm trying 4.2.2 but fails with : Undefined function :PIE called with arguments (300 200) . [Condition of type CCL::UNDEFINED-FUNCTION-CALL]
<jackdaniel>
I've used vecto backend
<neirac>
I'll go with vecto backend meanwhile
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<beach>
neirac: Yes, but it is not functional at the moment.
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<neirac>
jackdaniel I'm doing something wrong then, the vecto backend gives me the same error. (ql:quickload '(:cffi :dexador :plump :lquery :lparallel :str :adw-charting-vecto)) it seems to be loading adw but trying the vecto example fails.
<jackdaniel>
neirac: now when I think about it there could be some api issues, I think I've fixed them as they were encountered looking at the source code
<jackdaniel>
but I don't remember details at all, sorry
<neirac>
jackdaniel oh ok, thanks
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<jackdaniel>
(it might be that the problem was that api has changed but readme didn't)
<neirac>
jackdaniel :), I switched to vgplot just to advance quicker
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<neirac>
beach can I export the plot to png ?. I'll check clim vgplot examples are not working
<beach>
I think we have PDF output, but I don't know the details.
<beach>
loke and jackdaniel know more.
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<loke>
beach: There is PDF output. Wasn't slyrus working on it?
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<beach>
Ah, yes, I think you are right.
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<jackdaniel>
we have PDF, PostScript and PNG output-only backends
<beach>
Fantastic!
<jackdaniel>
(in fact, by PNG I mean whole set of supported raster image formats covered by opticl)
<beach>
Of course! Silly me.
<jackdaniel>
some features are not implemented in all backends (i.e raster has transparency, while two others do not)
<shka__>
is it possible to have transparency in pdf?
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<flip214>
shka__: a PDF is mostly transparent... apart from the shapes you paint.
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<shka__>
right
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<flip214>
that said, you can eg. cut a rectangle out of another rectangle before painting it, ie. build masks as well
<jackdaniel>
shka__: it is easy to verify it
<shka__>
convert png to pdf?
<jackdaniel>
no, type "transparency pdf" in search engine
<shka__>
well, yeah, i guess
<jackdaniel>
also what flip214 says, you may first gather output records, compose them on the renderer side and after that create a resulting pdf
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<esper0s>
hi everyone
<shka__>
esper0s: good evening
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<esper0s>
iam currently going through the book SICP which uses the mit-scheme lisp dialect. I want to find the best way to run mit-scheme through emacs, would that be installing mit-sheme and then as suggested by the manual the XSCHEME library?
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<shka__>
although this may be missleading, this channel is dedicated to the common lisp specificly
<shka__>
therefore not scheme
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<shka__>
having said that, i used racket
<shka__>
;-)
<esper0s>
thank you shka__ will look it up
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<Bike>
esper0s: the #scheme channel might be helpful
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<beach>
esper0s: Some people apparently do the exercises in Common Lisp instead.
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<esper0s>
beach are you trying to convert me already hahaha, just kidding
<esper0s>
difference between scheme and common lisp?
<beach>
Of course I am. As shka__ pointed out, this is a Common Lisp channel.
<beach>
esper0s: Too many to list here. I think pjb has a comparison somewhere.
<shka__>
esper0s: to be fair, you can do most of it in CL just fine
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<beach>
But you couldn't do the PCL exercises in Scheme. :)
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<beach>
I also often hear that the #scheme channel is very quiet, so if you need help, you are better of needing help with Common Lisp than with Scheme.
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<esper0s>
thank you
<esper0s>
iam currently at both
<esper0s>
they suggested i run mit-scheme using the mit-scrheme editor edwin
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<beach>
esper0s: About the differences, modern Common Lisp uses object-oriented programming CLOS-style a lot, and there is nothing equivalent in Scheme, so the idiomatic programming style is very different in the two languages.
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<heisig>
esper0s: I think Geiser (http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/) is quite nice for Scheme programming on Emacs. But, as beach hinted, you should also give Common Lisp a try :)
<esper0s>
thank you all for your help, i try to keep the learning scope narrow because it is big already as it is, i do plan on learning lisp in general but you gotta crawl before you walk :) thank you all again
<ogamita>
esper0s: the advantage of CL is that all implementations implement the same CL language. Not so true with scheme.
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<ogamita>
I could not learn scheme beause each time it was with a different implementation, a different language. Once I tried CL, and next time it was the same language, even if the implementation changed. So I could make progress with CL.
<ogamita>
A lot of them use GNUplot, so you need to install it.
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<jackdaniel>
I would go with gnuplot bindings instead of McCLIM. While hacking something with it is fairly easy it requires some initial work. also getting chart things like axis, legend, nice colors etc will take more than a few minutes to implement
<jackdaniel>
but if you want to try McCLIM join #clim, I'm sure you'll get any help you need to hack your way through
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<neirac>
ogamita, yes I already have gnuplot installed, vgplot works but only the first plot after that it starts failing.
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<neirac>
it seems my setup was wrong, now eazy-gnuplot seems to do something
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<beach>
jackdaniel: I am looking at the size of some parts of ECL and Clasp. It looks like almost half the source lines of C code in ECL consist of Unicode stuff. :)
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<beach>
jackdaniel: Does it seem right to you that, excluding Unicode stuff, ECL has around 170kLOC of C?
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<jackdaniel>
beach: sorry, I can't estimate that without looking
<jackdaniel>
and yes, unicode tables take a lot (but they are arguably not source but data)
<beach>
Indeed.
<jackdaniel>
beach: 55kLOC
<beach>
I must have done something wrong then.
<jackdaniel>
(I'm not counting libgc nor libgmp)
<beach>
Ah, OK.
<pfdietz>
Tiny
<jackdaniel>
type in src/c directory "find . -name \*.d | xargs wc -l "
<beach>
Got it.
<beach>
Is libgc the Boehm/Weiser collector?
<jackdaniel>
if that's not a secret, why are you investigating these things?
<beach>
Just to get an idea of how much code it takes to implement Common Lisp.
<beach>
I guess I am bored.
<jackdaniel>
yes. libgc is boehm. ecl had its own gc (written in C) and the module had 1200 LOC
<beach>
OK.
<jackdaniel>
but it was removed around 2007 I think (I have a very vague plans to resurrect it)
<jackdaniel>
s/a very/very/
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<francogrex>
hi i would like an 'elegant' concise piece of code that allows me to read the last row in a flat file with over a million rows (using i suppose readline and random access file-position)... any ideas?
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<Xach>
francogrex: elegant but not fast?
<Xach>
because the most elegant is to set a thing to the result of reading a line and when the file is at its end, return that thing.
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<Xach>
francogrex: if i were doing it, and i wanted it to be a little faster, i would read a big binary chunk from the end and scan the chunk for the end-of-line markers i want, then convert the binary data between markers to a string.
<francogrex>
Xach no i mean fast too,
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<francogrex>
ok yes thx
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<LdBeth>
The most efficient is mmap the file
<shka_>
hello
<shka_>
slime REPL seems behaves oddly for me
<LdBeth>
Hi shka_
<shka_>
it scrolls whole content so i am left with empty screen
<shka_>
i can scroll up, but it used to be different
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<aeth>
Gnuxie[m]: All of the JSON libraries are incredibly bad in different ways last time I took a look at them (who knows? maybe there's another 4 now)
<aeth>
so "seems like a bad idea" can be applied to all of them :-p
<Gnuxie[m]>
hmmm okie
<aeth>
One problem is that JSON is designed to be a trivial mapping to JS and coincidentally has very similar data structures in most other scripting languages.
<aeth>
CL is not one of these languages
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<aeth>
It looks like jsown has improved recently. From the readme, "Recently, functions and macros have been added to ease the burden of writing and editing jsown objects." I guess that's the changes "a year ago" (2017-11-08) on Github.
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<Gnuxie[m]>
oh ok, that's nice
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<aeth>
Gnuxie[m]: Okay, the problem with jsown is that it appears to use alists for JSON data structures with the :obj prefix, not bad. But then for []s it uses regular, unprefixed lists, causing an ambiguity between nil-as-() and nil-as-false. It resolves this ambiguity by allowing :false or :f as the JS false value, but it *should* resolve this ambiguity by prefixing it lists instead.
<aeth>
In fact, it should be configurable which sequence results from [] because you might want vectors or (simple-array single-float (3))s or something, not lists, and now you've just added a conversion step. "high performance".
<aeth>
It looks like jsown might be the least ridiculous of the JSON libraries I'm aware of at the moment, though. At least it doesn't have nil<->null and nil<-false and nil<-[] like some of them.
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<Gnuxie[m]>
hmmm yeah, I started with cl-json and that was much more horrid than this
<aeth>
(Similarly, a proper JSON library should let you choose between alists, plists, and hash-tables, with the third (hash-table) option potentially messing things up if you take in arbitrary JSON)
<aeth>
At least it prefixes the alists, though. So it gets a 50% for avoiding ambiguity in 1/2 of the data structures. :-p
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<aeth>
It looks like jsown is *not* for serializing arbitrary standard-objects/structure-objects/etc. into JSON, though, which is a good thing. That's doing work at too high of a level imo.
<aeth>
Overall, it looks like I'd give it a 7/10, which is probably several points higher than the other JSON libraries I've seen.
<aeth>
jasom: Yes, it's nice that cl-json is generic enought that it can be configured to do things (somewhat) correctly, so that's an advantage over cl-jsown. Of course, defaults matter, and its defaults are terrible.
<aeth>
jsown gets you closer to correctness (with the issues above that I noted) but afaik you can't get all of the way there, unlike (potentially) with cl-json
<jasom>
the defaults are terrible on all of the options with the possible exception of the one that decodes everything to a standard-object with its own class heirarchy
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<jasom>
yason is pretty close as well, and has very simple configuration to make it sane
<aeth>
jasom: Well, I just said what would work, at least until you get into 2+ dimensional arrays. :null<->null, nil<->false, prefix []s if lists so no truly empty list is possible because it would be something like '(:json-list), and allow the user to determine which sequence to encode/decode [] as, perhaps with a metadata scheme to allow multiple in one file.
<jasom>
It does default to [], null, false all being the same though
<aeth>
You *only* need two backends for [] encoding/decoding unless you want to support multi-dimensional arrays: list and array, since the rest would just be an :element-type in make-array
<jasom>
json doesn't have multidimensional arrase, right?
<aeth>
jasom: Right, the complicating factor in the sequence/array generic approach to [] would be if you wanted to turn [[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6]] into #2A((1 2 3) (4 5 6)) and vice versa.
<jasom>
that seems a bit too high-level for me, though I could see the domains in which it would be useful.
<aeth>
You could, of course, not even attmept to solve it, and then you just have the list and 1D array backend, and it's pretty simple, the typical work-on-all-standard-sequences kind of exercise
<aeth>
jasom: It seems high level, but unlike a total object mapping, it's kind of necessary for efficiency for the same reason that you want to be able to specify (simple-array single-float (3))s as well: avoid coercing into the array you want, which could be expensive for long arrays.
<aeth>
Most APIs break down when you have to copy a 10,000 element array a few times :-p
<jasom>
aeth: but what about [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],...[7,8,9,10]]? You need to read the whole thing already
<jasom>
If you enforce a schema on your json content then you are fine, but short of that...
<aeth>
jasom: You would probably have to anotate what kind of array you expect in the API
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<aeth>
jasom: Because then you would either error on the first row (wrong row size) or when you either have too many or too few rows compared to what you expect.
<aeth>
jasom: So this would only work efficiently if (i) there was some form of metadata, either in a separate JSON schema, or in the JSON file itself, or in the program code or (ii) every array was of the same type.
<jasom>
st-json is the library I was trying to think about where you will always write out json equivalent to what you read by default, but unfortunatley it's nil <-> [] which I don't like.
<aeth>
jasom: So you would probably do this at a higher level library, but you would have to be able to support this sort of thing in the JSON library itself, or else you're just going to be allocating a bunch of sequences and then coercing, which won't work for some JSON formats with large arrays like e.g. 3D models (and, yes, for some reason, people do this in JSON sometimes)
<aeth>
jasom: ":null<->null, nil<->false, prefix []s if lists" is the only way to handle it imo. Well, perhaps something other than :null, but it has to be a keyword or symbol.
<aeth>
It's fairly cheap to prefix/unprefix lists afaik.
<jasom>
I concur, but write-what-you-read should be table-stakes and st-json and com.gigamonkeys.json appear to be the is the only ones that do that out-of-the-box
<aeth>
The way to handle the sequence-generic [] would probably be to either (i) make it the same every time (so request lists, vectors, or some other sequence type) or (ii) override it with some sort of internal schema format that can be generated by various schema/etc. methods
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<aeth>
"some other sequence type" would be tricky. The easy/lazy way would be to just have length/element-type/etc. from make-array as part of the API. The hard way would be to use an extension (if possible; is it CLtL2?) to actually parse a result type so it can behave like #'map... but that 2nd approach won't get you everything (e.g. adjustable arrays with fill pointers)
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<esper0s>
i have got a general question which is not related to lisp but the process of learning. I have found many times that when reading a book on programming i find nmyself spending a lot of time learning the formal way of expressing concepts as stated in the book. Do you consider such an action vain? Sorry for the irrelevance of the question to the channel
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<jasom>
possibly stupid question: are condition types classes? The spec lists a "Class Precendence List" for them, but I can't find anywhere that says that any condition type other than "condition" is a class.
<phadthai>
they can be implemented with CLOS but not necessarily need to be (predating it if I remember)
<Xach>
jasom: my long-term understanding is that they are not required to be classes or to use clos
<phadthai>
esper0s: difficult to judge on learning methods, I think that learning the style is also good, however some books may not be considered good style today, or may be considered closer to scheme-style than cl-style
<jasom>
Xach: condition is specifically defined to not have standard-class as the metaobject, but it's not clear on whether or not e.g. define-condition creates a new class (that is not required to be a standard-class)
<phadthai>
esper0s: and I'm not sure if I understood well enough your question, likely not if my answer seems irrelevant :)
<Xach>
oh
<jasom>
Xach: e.g. is (defmethod foo ((bar parse-error)) ...) conforming?
<phadthai>
implementation specific I think
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<jasom>
what is confusing is that it shows a class precedence list for the standard condition types, whereas other non-class types do not (e.g. short-float).