ChanServ changed the topic of #elliottcable to: laser printers are fucking awesome
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<jesusabdullah> ELLIOTTCABLE: I used to work for tvtag until I got laid off
<jesusabdullah> ELLIOTTCABLE: you like it?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> jesusabdullah: I'm really, really fucking annoyed with it.
<jesusabdullah> hahaha
<jesusabdullah> explain
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'm a data nut. I use things like Foursquare, GetGlue, etceteras, to *record my life*.
<jesusabdullah> orite, i.tv bought gg
<jesusabdullah> that's why I was laid off
<ELLIOTTCABLE> To have mine-able, nostalgia-able, and aggregate-able data about everything I do. To boot, to share my life and progress in various things, with the people who care most about me. (Read: not you IRC losers. ;)
<jesusabdullah> yeah idgaf about you XD
<jesusabdullah> Okay maybe a little bit
<ELLIOTTCABLE> glue doesn't care about data, anymore. ideffingkay *what* they're trying to do with it, but it's not about the checking-in, about the data.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> most crucially, I can't check-in *to a particular episode*, anymore.
<jesusabdullah> Oh, yeah, i.tv is all about communal tv watching
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Now it's no goddamn better than just posting a Facebook status and typing the show's name or movie's name into the ‘emotion’ field, like everybody else does.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> i.tv? wassat?
<jesusabdullah> the company that bought gg and made tvtag
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ah. whatevs.
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<whitequark> yorickpeterse: I dunno, that looks like fun
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<yorickpeterse> whitequark: until the rope snaps and you're dead
<yorickpeterse> or you smack into the building
<whitequark> well yeah, you've better watch that rope
<whitequark> though while snapping it's going to absorb significant amount of energy, so chances that you're not dead, just have whatever injuries you'd get from falling 3-5m
<whitequark> several broken bones. *shrug*
<purr> ¯\(º_o)/¯
<whitequark> smacking into buildings is part of fun, I guess
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE:
<whitequark> glowcoil:
<glowcoil> whitequark:
<glowcoil> i have the confidence i can achieve a particular sound now, re electronic production
<glowcoil> but that's the thing
<glowcoil> the hard part about being a good artist isn't knowing how to achieve something but
<glowcoil> knowing what to achieve
<ELLIOTTCABLE> glowcoil!
<ELLIOTTCABLE> you're my third favourite person
<glowcoil> awww thx
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hi
<purr> ELLIOTTCABLE: hi!
<glowcoil> what's up with you
<ELLIOTTCABLE> um
<ELLIOTTCABLE> just Übered back from a friend's 21st
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I am *thoroughly* drunk
<ELLIOTTCABLE> far more than even remotely usual
<glowcoil> haha
<glowcoil> sounds fun
<glowcoil> I'm actually happy with my current living space now
<glowcoil> cleaned the shit out of the dorm room and shared bathroom, and my desk
<ELLIOTTCABLE> was actually quite fun
<glowcoil> have room to scoot my laptop back and write on papers and shit :p
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: do I know the friend?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yeah I spent some chunk of today setting up more stuff in the office
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wish I had the capabiluty to take expressive photos of it
<glowcoil> haha
<ELLIOTTCABLE> two desks. Both automated standing-desks, one Anthro (the old one you've seen, black) and one NextDesk (bamboo top, steel legs)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> funnily enough, exact same lifting hardware. Wonder who *actually* makes it, it's become clear to me that they're both resellers. Exact same electronics-box bolted to the underside of both; exact same lifting-legs with different powder coatings.
<glowcoil> haha interesting
<glowcoil> standing desks seem cool but i don't have the money or control over my living space to try one out
<ELLIOTTCABLE> anyway. Anthro desk is computer-work desk, with two 27" Apple LCDs float-mounted, and backed up against floor-to-ceiling windows with a view of the city. Beautiful.
<glowcoil> oh neat
<ELLIOTTCABLE> NextDesk is coming together, slowly, as an electronics workstation. Everything's mounted to it, so I can move the *entire* setup with one button, from standing to sitting (important criteron for me; I don't like to be forced to stand or sit for an entire day)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> the usual: oscilloscope, bench multimeter, soldering station with desoldering-pump, regulated power-supply
<glowcoil> ooh
<glowcoil> is it a neat oscilloscope with a blue screen
<glowcoil> that looks all cyberpunky
<glowcoil> lol
<purr> lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> also, more unusually, and after much research … a stereo boom-arm microscope for SMT work, and a custom-built pick-bin system, all individually lighted, so I can see into each tiny bin and ascertain what's inside them
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oh and of course 'cause I'm ELLIOTTCABLE, a sound system
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Bowers & Wilkins MM-1's with a compact Martin Logan sub under the desk
<ELLIOTTCABLE> no, it's a modern one. Owon digital oscilloscope
<glowcoil> aw yeah
<glowcoil> i want to come to your place and make electronics
<glowcoil> :p
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: oh, owon
<whitequark> that's a really cheap shitty one
<glowcoil> haha
<whitequark> owon, hantek, siglent, all that chinese crap
<whitequark> should've bought a rigol or maybe a used tek
<ELLIOTTCABLE> thought about it
<ELLIOTTCABLE> decided that, with anything *digital*, not analog, in nature, I'd prefer new-and-modern to old-and-reliable.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> opposite for analog equipment.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but new features, connectivity, support, trumps old reliable brand-names at the moment for me, until I know more.
<whitequark> well... I was investigating it just recently and determined too, that rigol would be far better than tek at roughly same price
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'd take photos for you, but it's 4AM, I jsut got home, I am FILTHY drunk,
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and I don't have a light-fixture yet.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> literally. The ONE THING not yet set up in my lab, is lighting.
<whitequark> tek has a LOT of bandwidth
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I can work from the light of my screens, and that's it.
<whitequark> however rigol has much more neat digital features and, importantly, also helluva compact
<whitequark> so, I decided to get 1074Z
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Lemme set up a lighting solution and send a photo to this damn room.
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: buy a 70mhz version, reprogram it to 100mhz
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: oh by the way
<whitequark> I made http://i.imgur.com/HqqMcsZ.jpg 2 days ago
<whitequark> it is not quite the quality I *want* but it is close
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: do you have snapchat
<ELLIOTTCABLE> glowcoil: yep, usual name
<ELLIOTTCABLE> all at home?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> or ordered the PCB?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> @ whitequark
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: all myself
<whitequark> I eventually want to be able to do factory-quality double-sided prototypes in mere hours for under $10/board
<whitequark> and I'm about an inch^W^W10cm from that goal
<glowcoil> that's so fucking cool
<glowcoil> well i should slep
<ELLIOTTCABLE> glowcoil: waaaait
<ELLIOTTCABLE> uploading
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: ok
<ELLIOTTCABLE> apropos of nothing: I have a problem.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and that problem, is Yu-Gi-Oh! GX, whatever the fuck that is, on Hulu
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I am altogether too generous, in many cases; and one of those cases, is my Hulu password.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and WHOEVER THE FUCK, out of my dozens of Hulu give-ees, is a Yu-Gi-Oh fan, is GODDAMN PROLIFIC
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I swear, I block/remove/ignore/unfavourite/delete EVERY SINGLE ANIME THINGAMAJIG I SEE IN MY HULU PROFILE,
<whitequark> lol
<purr> lol
<whitequark> y u so angry
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and that shit STILL shows up all across my “Suggested for you” or “Queued episodes” or “Favourites” or “Put this in your anus and suck on it” lists
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ddis
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ddis ddis ddis ddis
<ELLIOTTCABLE> DDIS
<ELLIOTTCABLE> -ddis
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: hahahahaha
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ALL I WANT TO DO IS RE-START THE EPISODE OF FRESH MEAT I WAS WATCHING WHEN I JETTED FOR THAT PARTY
<ELLIOTTCABLE> UGH
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: have you listened to Jon Hopkins
<ELLIOTTCABLE> APPLE TV, I WILL PUKE ON YOU
<ELLIOTTCABLE> isnt that a uni
<glowcoil> *beautiful* electronic shit
<glowcoil> Johns Hopkins is a hospital, yes
<glowcoil> haha
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> well, photos from my phone aren't uploading
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so here's a photo from the birthday-party I just got back from
<glowcoil> idea idea idea:
<glowcoil> to create a person:
<glowcoil> the hard part is obviously the actual learning algo
<glowcoil> and the data model for memories
<ELLIOTTCABLE> glowcoil: ell.io/tt+posts/Mg2R6QqzcWe
<glowcoil> but assuming that problem is solved,
<glowcoil> give it as its possible actuators/motor neurons/whatever
<ELLIOTTCABLE> buncha shit turned on with no purpose.
<glowcoil> the parameters for modulating sound that are like a human voice
<ELLIOTTCABLE> 'cuz it's ten past four in the morning, and FUCK ALL if I'm gonna try to do something productive for the purpose of a photo
<glowcoil> vowel formant shit and consonants and stuff
<glowcoil> and then, use biometrics of people talking to it
<glowcoil> face shit and voice shit
<glowcoil> that we know, heuristically, are good and bad
<glowcoil> and feed that as the reinforcement
<glowcoil> so like, using some hacky/heuristic ai to analyze human biometrics, to train a much more sophisticated ai
<glowcoil> using those heuristics like the lower echelons of our brain
<glowcoil> the automatic parts
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: haha i think the + fucked up terminal's url recognition
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: macbook looks positively tiny on that desk
<glowcoil> w the other shit
<glowcoil> looks way neat
<ELLIOTTCABLE> http://j.mp/1heNs0C
<ELLIOTTCABLE> fix'd
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oh, k
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: anyway this album http://www.rdio.com/artist/Jon_Hopkins/album/Immunity/ is sublime
<ELLIOTTCABLE> will listen after current Fresh Meat episode
<glowcoil> just fucking amazing
<glowcoil> also he is way cute http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8gKSrpJsg4
<glowcoil> :p
<ELLIOTTCABLE> since when are you bi
<ELLIOTTCABLE> slash gay
<glowcoil> i don't think i'm actually interested in sex with males
<glowcoil> just definitely aesthetically attracted to a lot of them
<ELLIOTTCABLE> dude, we're exact opposite
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'm so down for some cock.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but dudes are *so* fucking unattractive.
<glowcoil> haha
<ELLIOTTCABLE> emotionally as much as physically.
<glowcoil> yeah idk emotionally i'm not attracted to guys at all
<glowcoil> except maybe very very specific personalities
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I try, so, so hard to be gay. I want a guy. I want th' cock, straight-up.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ddis ddis ddis
<glowcoil> and probably the more i got to know a real guy with that kind of personality the less i woudl be
<ELLIOTTCABLE> gonna kill Chrome if it doesn't start supporting my OS X completions
<glowcoil> so it works more as a crush from a distance thing
<glowcoil> :p
<ELLIOTTCABLE> d'awww
<ELLIOTTCABLE> that's adorbs
<ELLIOTTCABLE> am currently dying
<glowcoil> of what?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> also turning my soldering iron on while SMASHED drunk was a terrible idea
<ELLIOTTCABLE> can smell something burning
<ELLIOTTCABLE> brb
<glowcoil> haha
<glowcoil> shit
<ELLIOTTCABLE> characters on teevee falling in love
<ELLIOTTCABLE> makin' me feel all lonely
<ELLIOTTCABLE> twenty past four in the morning.
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: how old are you
<ELLIOTTCABLE> 21
<glowcoil> ok
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wait
<glowcoil> wow
<ELLIOTTCABLE> 24
<glowcoil> oh
<whitequark> wait
<ELLIOTTCABLE> other dude is 21
<glowcoil> haha
<glowcoil> ok
<whitequark> lol
<purr> lol
<glowcoil> thought it was more like 24
<glowcoil> 26 was in my brain
<ELLIOTTCABLE> am approximately 19% alcohol, by body-weight
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so forgive me confusion
<glowcoil> lulul
<whitequark> GLOWCOIL: ELLIOTT IS 24 AND HE IS GAY. WHAT HAVE YOU ACHIEVED?!
<glowcoil> it was surprisingly hard to find your age on various social networks given your propensity for sharing
<glowcoil> whitequark: i'm ok at programming, making games, electronic music production
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yep, pretty private about my birthday
<glowcoil> whitequark: have kissed one girl
<glowcoil> whitequark: reached 18
<glowcoil> whitequark: that's what i have achieved i'd say
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hm
<ELLIOTTCABLE> achievements
<glowcoil> also ib diploma, shit tons of ap classes, full ride scholarship to university, 36 on act
<glowcoil> but that shit is boring
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I've loved. I've cared about someone, with every fiber of my being. (Not necessarily the same thing. Neither the same person.) I've believed in my own ability to learn. I've created something truly valuable and unique. I've created *truly spectacular* sex with someone.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> meh, only thing I have that can compete with any of glowcoil's accomplishments is three perfect scores on the SAT in a row.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> as for other academic shit … dropped out of universities some three or four times? failed all of my AP tests, 'cuz of a girl?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oh, I just ordered 100 Chicken McNuggets at McDonalds, and made the Über driver sit there and wait the fifteen minutes it took to prepare them.
<glowcoil> that's an accomplishment i'd say
<whitequark> lol
<purr> lol
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: what did you create?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> also bought a treasure-chest, which is apparently some unnecessary concoction of Dom Perignon and rum.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> 's been a great night.
<whitequark> also why is ability to learn in past tense
<ELLIOTTCABLE> whitequark: Paws.
<whitequark> ah
<whitequark> still didn't teach me paws
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I couldn't care less what other things I've failed to do in terms of programming and software-dev, or other's doubt of Paws as a whole …
<glowcoil> going back to gayness
<glowcoil> a gay/bi friend, while we were both really drunk at a party, confessed he liked me
<ELLIOTTCABLE> with all I've learned, all my own disenfranchising with programming a whole, and others' distrust of Paws as a whole, I doubt I'll ever be convinced that executions are anything less than a true innovation.
<glowcoil> we were at the point where it wasn't weird at all to discuss
<glowcoil> and now we're still just friends and chill about it
<glowcoil> so yeah
<glowcoil> that was one thing that kind of made me realize i definitely don't want to actually date a guy, that's just a fact
<glowcoil> anyway
<ELLIOTTCABLE> trying to decide if Hot Cheetos are going to make me puke myself.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> 'cuz they're the only thing I have to eat, in the house.
<whitequark> best idea ever:
<whitequark> let's launch mumble
<glowcoil> i couldn't
<ELLIOTTCABLE> k
<glowcoil> my roommate's asleep
<glowcoil> would be fun tho
<glowcoil> could go to a study room down the hall actually
<ELLIOTTCABLE> headphones bitch
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but teevee
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I have headpnes if y'all're down
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: I'm surely down to it
<whitequark> in like, 5 minutes, in which I'll buy some food
<whitequark> because hungry as fuck
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I
<ELLIOTTCABLE> WANT
<ELLIOTTCABLE> FOOD
<ELLIOTTCABLE> give it to me
<whitequark> YES
<whitequark> FO-OD! FO-OD! OCCUPY GROCERY SHOP
* whitequark raises a flag
<ELLIOTTCABLE> whitequark: i like you.
* ELLIOTTCABLE grins
<glowcoil> lulul
<glowcoil> there are seriously few things in the world as beautiful as Immunity
<glowcoil> (Jon Hopkins album)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> lol
<purr> lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> fun fact:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I broke up with my serious girlfriend, over her running.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and I have similarly-overwhelming feels about your music.
<glowcoil> :c
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I never have remotely as thorough feels, as you do, from music.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I really like some music, sure. I was munging excited when I discovered Seven Lions, or when I heard M Machine's latest album for the first time.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but I just don't, I dunno, get into it, the way you do.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> music's music. I put it on and crank up the bass while I'm doing other, more important things.
* glowcoil nods
<ELLIOTTCABLE> But if it's not goddamn Beethoven, it's far from the focus of my day, or the focus of any particular moment
<glowcoil> i mean i put a lot of conscious effort into music
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I never *stop anything else i'm doing*, because the music is more important than that thing.
<glowcoil> like, i seriously put effort into being a good listener of music
<glowcoil> part of it is like, being cool
<glowcoil> like, a lot of people know me as the guy with good music taste
<glowcoil> so i mean
<glowcoil> it's a thing i've put time and effort into
<ELLIOTTCABLE> interestingly, enough, it's not just music.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I seem to have an overall problem distinguishing sound
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I've always had “trouble hearing,” that had nothing to do with aural resolution. I score fine/high-ish on raw hearing tests. Took a long time for my parents to take me to some psych who tested my hearing-amongst-noise shit; and I scored *terrible*. Couldn't differentiate voices from the background of a simulated crowd, apparently.
<glowcoil> oh, that's interesting
<ELLIOTTCABLE> case-in-point: New Android phone, right?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> FOR THE FUCKING LIFE OF ME, I can't differentiate the “Hangouts message” sound from the “generic inspecific notification” sound.
<glowcoil> i actually feel like i know what you mean because sometimes i want to give a new album a thorough listen and i'm literally incapable of appreciating what i'm hearing on any level really
<glowcoil> varies with mental state
<ELLIOTTCABLE> (just like iOS, there's a default sound for ALL apps' notifications, unless they specify otherwise. It's used for shit like e-mails and Facebook messages.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> (and I CANNOT, and I've been trying for days, figure out which is which, when I hear a sound from the next room.)
* glowcoil nods
<glowcoil> that's interesting
<ELLIOTTCABLE> all Android sounds sound kinda the same to me
<whitequark> okay bitches
<whitequark> I'm back
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I mean, don't know how to express it
<whitequark> and I bought 1.5kg of chicken nuggets
<ELLIOTTCABLE> how many nuggs is that
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I literally bought 100 tonight
<ELLIOTTCABLE> did you beat me?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> might need to poo
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yeah need to poo bbl
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: I don't know, lemme measure a mean weight of a nugget
<ELLIOTTCABLE> did you order them by weight? o_O
<glowcoil> they're like
<glowcoil> ones you cook
<whitequark> yep
<whitequark> 460g bags
<whitequark> okay so, I measured it
<whitequark> sample size 18, mean weight 23.3g, median 23g, stdev 1g
<glowcoil> only whitequark
<glowcoil> haha
<whitequark> they're remarkably consistent I must say
<whitequark> so
<whitequark> that's 420g by the way, not 460. lies!
<whitequark> anyway the outcome is that I bought about 54 of them
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: are you happy now?
<whitequark> -mumble
<purr> whitequark: We're currently voice-chatting, hence may be untalkative in IRC. Join us: mumble://ell.io/ (Download: http://mumble.sourceforge.net/ … you may have to self-register in the client, and then re-log, before you can speak.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> holy crapfuck creepiest thing
<whitequark> what
<ELLIOTTCABLE> was taking a shit and heard y'all from the next room
<ELLIOTTCABLE> too drunk to remember that I'd opened mumble
<whitequark> lol
<purr> lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> soz love bbl sleepz
<whitequark> did that enhance your shitting experience?
<whitequark> aww
<glowcoil> :(:(:(:(:(
<glowcoil> well i should sleep anyway to
<glowcoil> o
<glowcoil> it's 3:53
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<whitequark> okay what the fuck
<whitequark> I just pulled a splinter out of my foot. what do you think it was? a wood piece? a wire? nope.
<whitequark> it was a fucking hair
<whitequark> how exactly does one push a hair half a cenimeter into their foot?!
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<prophile> with determination
<whitequark> prophile: I just realized what your name reminds me
<prophile> whitequark: oh yes?
<whitequark> well uh
<whitequark> a certain upside-down guy
<whitequark> I'm a horrible person I know
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<prophile> k
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<joelteon> 420g blaze it faggot
<whitequark> what
<purr> lol
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<purr> lol
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: ^
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> omg whitequark I want to do that :P
<whitequark> no shit, I knew that
<ELLIOTTCABLE> :P
<whitequark> well... familiarize yourself with a CAD and that's all you need
<ELLIOTTCABLE> no, like, make them unnecessarily pretty
<whitequark> yeah
<ELLIOTTCABLE> omg
<ELLIOTTCABLE> sorry a bit hungover
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and by a bit I mean massively wanked
<whitequark> yeah
* whitequark is pissed off
<whitequark> fucking acrylic
<whitequark> so hard to work with
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I need to send my Form off
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so they can get the other one in the mail
<ELLIOTTCABLE> is starting with Sketchup a good idea? I'm lazy, and have toooooo manh new things to learn at once
<whitequark> um no, you need a CAD for PCBs
<ELLIOTTCABLE> nah, for 3D modeling
<ELLIOTTCABLE> not for the PCBs
<whitequark> ah
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I ain't got a CNC or a mill yet :P
<whitequark> well, getting those pretty PCBs on your own will be massively hard
<whitequark> telling you as a guy making PCBs for lunch
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hm?
<whitequark> I would 100% send those out to a fab
<whitequark> instead of making them myself
<ELLIOTTCABLE> why, in particular?
<whitequark> lots of fine detail, which, if fucked up, kill the entire purpose of an aesthetically pleasing PCB, even if don't affect functionality in any way
<whitequark> so, much lower tolerances than in general
<whitequark> you'll need to spend a week or two adjusting your process nonstop to achieve that
<whitequark> talking about 3D modeling... well. I'd say get a parametric CAD, they're a necessity for anything starting with "I want to make a rectangular box"
<whitequark> I mean, unless you want to spend hours adjusting every single part by hand, when you need to make it a millimeter longer
<whitequark> FreeCAD is an acceptable parametric CAD
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hm?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> explain
<ELLIOTTCABLE> parametric?
<whitequark> no, fuck
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I was told to use Blender or some shit
<whitequark> FreeCAD is not an acceptable parametric CAD unfortunately :(
<whitequark> eh
<ELLIOTTCABLE> by my 3D-printing-nut friend
<whitequark> did you ask some, ahem, artist?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but SketchUp is apparently the easy starter-version
<ELLIOTTCABLE> related:
<whitequark> I mean, if what you make is art, sure, take blender or sketchup
<whitequark> I'm giving you the engineering answer
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I generally despise Arduino, but the packing is spectacular. I love it.
<whitequark> and that answer is a parametric CAD
<ELLIOTTCABLE> just unfolded the giant, er, whatever-it-is. Poster? that came in the box.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> explain parametric CAD
<ELLIOTTCABLE> go go go go go
<whitequark> (arduino) I don't despise it, in fact I thought you'd love it
<whitequark> why?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> -bitcoin
<purr> ELLIOTTCABLE: Did you mean `-BTC`?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> -how's the bitcoin doing?
<purr> ELLIOTTCABLE: Did you mean `-BTC`?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> fuck you
<ELLIOTTCABLE> -find bitco
<purr> ELLIOTTCABLE: Found: how's the bitcoin doing?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> -how's the bitcoin doing?
<purr> ELLIOTTCABLE: Did you mean `-BTC`?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> -btc
<purr> ELLIOTTCABLE: Buy ฿1: $US 592.98 @ Bitstamp, $US 598.32 @ Coinbase
<whitequark> arduino is amazing in that it doesn't lie, read on it frontpage: "IT'S INTENDED FOR ARTISTS, DESIGNERS, HOBBYISTS AND ANYONE INTERESTED IN CREATING INTERACTIVE OBJECTS OR ENVIRONMENTS"
<whitequark> artists
<whitequark> not programmers. not engineers.
<whitequark> arduino is fucking amazing toy for artists, designers, hobbyists and the like
<whitequark> kids, too
<purr> ELLIOTTCABLE: Learned `how's the bitcoin doing?`.
<whitequark> just don't try to make fucking clusters out of it or generally solve engineering problems with it
<ELLIOTTCABLE> -forget bitcoin
<purr> ELLIOTTCABLE: Forgot 'bitcoin'.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> -how's the bitcoin doing?
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: stop this shit pls
<ELLIOTTCABLE> -learn bitcoin = Did you mean `-BTC`?
<purr> ELLIOTTCABLE: Learned `bitcoin`.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> sorry 'bout that
<ELLIOTTCABLE> reading
<ELLIOTTCABLE> whitequark: have a problem with bots? :P
<whitequark> compare to rpi, which says that it's an open platform good for developers, whereas it is neither
<whitequark> damn good way to sell extra stock though
<ELLIOTTCABLE> as we've previously discussed
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so so so so so so parametric CAD
<whitequark> (bots) not in general, but this should've been done in pm. because distracting.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> teach me oh wiser one
<whitequark> parametric cad, yeah
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I am surrounded by teenage geniuses who know more than me. This is my life.
<whitequark> so basically, in parametric CAD you don't draw shit, you say "I want this circle be on the end of this line"
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and then one (alexgordon, uncategorizable).
<alexgordon> hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<whitequark> er, center of this circle
<alexgordon> ELLIOTTCABLE :D
<alexgordon> ELLIOTTCABLE: I'm not teenage though
<whitequark> and then you say "I want the other end on the line to lie on the circle"
<ELLIOTTCABLE> brb, keep typing. need moar coffee to fight this hangover
<alexgordon> I'm 12
<ELLIOTTCABLE> alexgordon: exactly, I said “and then one”.
<alexgordon> I still can't believe whitequark is younger than me
<alexgordon> hell I can hardly believe glowcoil is younger than me
<whitequark> and then "I want this line to be 12cm long"
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Three unit (Genius, Teenage). One unit (Alexgordon, Uncat). One unit (Catboy, Robotic).
<whitequark> after you define all constraints on your sketch, the CAD solves it
<alexgordon> how old is inimino`?
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: I'm not teenage you dork
<whitequark> anyway
<ELLIOTTCABLE> whitequark: 20 is still teenage in my book :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE> you forget, U.S. considers everything before your 21st birthday to be ‘a kid.’
<joelteon> you should probably get the next edition of your book
<whitequark> the idea behind parametric CAD is that you don't calculate all the irrelevant minutae of your design, you let machine do that
<joelteon> where they fixed the errata
<ELLIOTTCABLE> joelteon: hm?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> whitequark: interesting. I really like the sound of that.
<whitequark> you just tell the machine the constraints you are truly interested in
<whitequark> and then it even can say whether you overconstrained it (error), underconstrained, or made it just right
<whitequark> that's the 2D part though. then you do something, e.g. loft, extrude, spin or some other shit, to make that 2D sketch 3D
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I don't have the machine or shit to start playing yet, but I *tentatively* have been assuming that I'll basically be taking a caliper to things I need to mount/mesh/hold/attach, and then entering those numbers into a 3D modeling program, and working from there.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Wasn't really sure on the details, though, and sounded pretty unlikely that it'd be that easy (durrrr) … but param-CAD sounds like exactly that, almost.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> sounds way more approachable than expected?
<whitequark> ummm
<whitequark> "I've been assuming programming is like this, you decide on variable names, write some code and then compile it"
<whitequark> is what you basically said
<ELLIOTTCABLE> man, I made out like a bandit last night
<ELLIOTTCABLE> whitequark: heh. I'm sure.
<whitequark> CAD/CAM is a fucking massive complicated topic, I've been studying it nonstop for 2 months and I barely scratched the surface
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'm aware that I have an abbreviated view, to understate mildly. :P
<whitequark> I don't think I will have a moderately good grasp on the whole toolchain in next two years or so
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but when you're talking to a complete noob, you *have* to gloss over things shamelessly. Information intake has to start somewhere.
<whitequark> it is truly enormous and complex and programming is fucking easy compared to it
<ELLIOTTCABLE> interesting.
<whitequark> not in least because if you fuck up your toolpath, you break the tool and workpiece and you have to shell out $30 more and wait a week for delivery
<whitequark> AND THIS PISSES ME OFF TO NO EXTENT
<ELLIOTTCABLE> -btc
<purr> ELLIOTTCABLE: Buy ฿1: $US 587.00 @ Bitstamp, $US 593.24 @ Coinbase
* whitequark slaps ELLIOTTCABLE around a bit with a large trout
<ELLIOTTCABLE> what!
<ELLIOTTCABLE> it's easy. /ignore purr, if you're that bothered.
<whitequark> no, for some reason it's just your btc inquiries right now
<ELLIOTTCABLE> you can probably configure your client-of-choice to remove messages with an initial dash, too, if you're realllllllly that anal
<whitequark> anyway
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oh, soz
<whitequark> you can ask me various shit
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I like getting rich, and that keeps sorta-accidentally happening
<whitequark> also http://cnccookbook.com
<whitequark> the author is very competent and has quite a penchant for explaining things
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and just to be clear,
<whitequark> it's maybe not ideal, but I find the general quality and quantity of novice-level material to be appaling
<ELLIOTTCABLE> the mill I'll be getting from that kickstarter, in another couple months … that's still CNC?
<whitequark> which kickstarter?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Somehow, I'd always pictured CNC as involving machines the size of a bicycle, and large tanks of rare gas.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and maybe lasers, idk.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> -g othermill @ whitequark
<purr> whitequark: The Othermill: Custom Circuits at Your Fingertips by Otherfab ... <https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/otherfab/the-othermill-custom-circuits-at-your-fingertips>
<whitequark> oh it's absolute shit
<ELLIOTTCABLE> milling out wax or PCB doesn't *sound* like CNC to me
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but I have no idea what I'm doing and am probably wrong.
<whitequark> CNC is: computer numerical control
<whitequark> interpret it literally. everything that is controlled by a computer with a numerical input is CNC
<whitequark> as opposed to:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> gotcha.
<whitequark> manually spinning a wheel to move the table, reading position from analog scale.
<whitequark> which is what you do on a non-CNC mill.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> makes complete sense, I just had strange associations in my head from ancient magazine articles when I was a kid.
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: so looking as you won't get far, or pretty much anywhere with that mill
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so, (some mills) are (CNC)
<whitequark> I have a proposal to you
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but not all CNC are mills, nor are all mills CNC
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so, technically, I'll be doing (shitty, 'cuz kickstarter) “CNC milling.”
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yes?
<whitequark> yeah. there's manually controlled mills, but they're quickly falling out of favor
<ELLIOTTCABLE> whaddya mean won't get far? I mean, I'm not like you, the PCB stuff isn't my end-goal
<whitequark> because even if you're hardcore anticomputer, there's still this thing, "digital readout"
<ELLIOTTCABLE> it's *very* much a side effort.
<whitequark> where basically you just let the mill precisely measure and set position for you
<whitequark> and all CNCs have that
<whitequark> (side effort) obviously, PCBs are side effort for me
<ELLIOTTCABLE> like, I'm very skeptical that Othermill'll be too mediocre for my purposes; as my purposes are, as of yet, both undefined, *and* likely to be soft-core.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> you seem pretty obsessed with CNC :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE> no offense, or anything. it's fucking rad.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but I'm too busy being obsessed with the electronics stuff you already know and are bored with, and then with learning to 3D-design on top of that, to add “getting really good at milling things” to the list
<whitequark> I'm obsessed with technology in general. it's about the only way I can get off. so, obviously
<whitequark> anway, back to CNCs
<ELLIOTTCABLE> anything in the REMOTEST ballpark of “making my gadgets work” is Good Enough right now. am I wrong?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> brb will keep reading go ahead
<whitequark> the problem with othermill is: negligible table dimensions. negligible rigidity (hence precision). negligible spindle power.
<whitequark> you won't be able to mill aluminium or god forbid steel. you likely won't be able to mill even thick acrylic. you will hardly be able to mill thick PCBs reliably.
<whitequark> > Othermill is made from high density polyethylene, which is chemical resistant and moisture proof, leading to a longer lasting machine.
<whitequark> this is *horrible*. my mill is made of 1.5cm aluminium, and that's barely enough rigidity for the job.
<whitequark> > We love TinyG because it's open source firmware and has a built-in g-code interpreter.
<whitequark> the problem with their gcode interpreter is that it's a rather stupid subset of gcode. gcode is quite powerful. it's turing-complete, in fact, and very convenient to write parametric scripts in
<whitequark> e.g. I have this script in which I input w/h/thickness of a PCB, set coordinate system, and then it mills me a rectangle
<whitequark> resolution of 0.01mm is too good to be true. really expensive industrial machines deliver .025mm, and that's considered "more than needed for most of jobs". .01mm means some insane bucks and an unusual job. aerospace, that kind of.
<whitequark> I'm not saying they're lying, but the specs are quite unheard of, *especially* for a cheap machine constructed of polyethylene
<whitequark> I have very hard time believing that's going to work on anything but PCBs, and I have quite a hard time believing it delivers said performance on PCBs.
<whitequark> wait, HOW MUCH ARE THEY ASKING FOR IT?!!
<whitequark> $1000?!
<whitequark> WHAT THE FUCK
* whitequark pats elliott on back
<whitequark> congrats, you just wasted about $1000
<joelteon> there goes elliottcable
<joelteon> he's gonna be homeless now
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: hear there. my mill has 30x20cmx5cm working area (4.5x bigger), .05mm precision (but I verified that), is built of metal instead of fucking polyethylene, and has a proper 400W spindle, which, while crap, easily mills aluminum, uses EMC2, which is the CNC control software used in industry, is built out of 1.5cm aluminium, and cost me $560, literally half of which was shipping to RU.
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: so my proposal was, let's build you a proper CNC for a proper cost
<whitequark> some background:
<whitequark> after a lot of fiddling around, testing and so on I realized that buying a cheap mill ($1000 is cheap, what I bought is even cheaper) results in pretty good mechanics and absurdly shitty electronics, which means you have to design (can be done with minimal effort) electronics yourself anyway; whatever vendor gives you is inexcusable
<whitequark> then I found out that if you buy a CNC "router" (the most common cheap CNC you can buy today), you get stuck with negligible Z distance, which is really really problematic for realworld tasks, especially considering how tool length reduces your Z range by 1/3-1/2
<whitequark> then I found out that building all CNC mechanics yourself is a) not hard b) not expensive c) was done and explained to hell
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I expect you're right, on most counts
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Hold on brb again
<whitequark> so I pondered building a proper CNC for myself for a bit, but with my current situation it would be like upgrading, say
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Drying off :P
<whitequark> a macbook with 2000mhz processor to a macbook with 2500mhz processor
<whitequark> you get the idea, it's cool and useful but not worth the effort for me right now, plus I'd have to do something with the previous one
<whitequark> and I don't wanna it to waste
<whitequark> so, I could just build one for you, for example.
<whitequark> specifically I have in mind a particular heise.de article to follow, they're very close to what I consider an ideal CNC mill for myself
<ELLIOTTCABLE> okay. put that on hold for a second.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> what sounds like a fucking silly question, and unrelated to anything at hand, but,
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'm me, and I'm weird, and have weird priorities (first: aesthetics of my work-space, second: ergonomics of my work-space, third: everything else.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> you've been milling *a lot*.
<whitequark> yeah, a bit
<ELLIOTTCABLE> do you spend a lot of time *standing over your actual mill*, or needing to physically manipulate it (not including modifying/fixing/whatever, I mean when doing a milling job), or needing to look closely at it while it's working?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hard to phrase my question so I'll extrapolate to extremes, I suppose:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> could you, say, put your current mill on the floor, like you might a paper-printer if you were short on space?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> el oh el at BTC-USD climbing still. anybody who noticed the Mt. Gox news and *didn't* buy in, I feel is an idiot. That was just a completely guaranteed win. >,<
<whitequark> I spend a lot of time looking at it because a) I get a huge boner b) it is useful to watch a test run ("cutting air"), or look whether it's behaving not in the way you expect
<whitequark> I would absolutely not put a paper printer on floor, because dust is killing it
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ignore the dust, that's not what I'm really talking about.
<whitequark> I mean, maybe dust is not a problem at your place at all. I wish I lived in a cleanroom
<whitequark> no, I won't ignore the dust, it's relevant
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yes my entire house is a cleanroom I really *am* That Cool™.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ;)
<whitequark> oh, mind if I move in with you?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> no, I mean, I'm not literally putting it on the floor, it's just a good approximation.
<whitequark> because here
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Okay, lemme explain.
<whitequark> if I clean everything
<whitequark> and then wait 1 day
<whitequark> and then swipe a finger
<whitequark> it's fucking black
<whitequark> tell me what exactly do you want to do
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I've been a standing-desk freak for quite a while. years, now, I believe. It's a big deal to me, 'cuz I have a spectacularly difficult time maintaining ANY sort of cardio schedule. The best I can do is an anaerobic schedule, and that doesn't help my *health*, it just helps my weight (a little) and muscularity (a lot.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> So, standing for much of my day, and walking a lot everywhere I get the chance (i.e. parking at the far corner of parking lots, taking stairs 'cuz I love stairs, etc) are a big part of my life.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> my newest office-space (more of a lab now, really, 'cuz there's officially more electronics-related gear in here than computer-related, now) is mostly ideal for this, more-so than any of my previous setups.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> all of the surfaces in the room are variously vertically-adjustable from sitting- to standing-position. I'm big into that, love it immensely.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> That said … that shit gets expensive. I just got a *new* adjustable standing-desk, NextDesk … and while I love it, I damned well don't want to buy another for no good reason.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Problem is, I've basically exhausted all of this table-space, and it's set up a way I like it. I don't have *room* for either the Form 1, the Othermill, *or* a standard printer-printer.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but: none of those are things I need to stand infront of for an hour at a time, AFAICT. I can stand up, walk to them, and manipulate them for brief periods of time … but all the time-consuming, focus-consuming *effort* (post-print clean-up and manipulation of parts, for instance) will be done *after* things are removed from the vicinity of the printer,
<ELLIOTTCABLE> over to my work-desk. Which is adjustable, and has a space dedicated for working like that.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> So, I'd really like to get a third, non-adjustable surface, and use it exclusively for all of the long-running devices that I don't actually need to baby-sit. Milling, forming, and printing.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> the only one I'm not sure about is the milling. That's a ways off, and I have no idea what it will physically entail; hence why I'm asking you. Need to design the ergonomics of the room around whether-or-not I need to baby-sit that thing.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> If I do, I may have to clear a space for it on my electronics bench.
<whitequark> wow so much letters
* whitequark is reading
<whitequark> ah, hm. no, no babysitting. initially you'd spend quite a bit of time debugging your toolpaths (basically), but it's a one-time cost, to put it.
<whitequark> after you get familiar with tools and materials, you'll in general verify it in a simulator, then let the machine do its thing after spending 1 min to touch off it
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yeah, thought as much
<ELLIOTTCABLE> the biggest advantage of the Othermill to me, even if they typo'd their 0.01mm accuracy from the actual 0.1mm accuracy or something, is size and portability.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> which brings us back to the earlier conversation:
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> I have a small apartment right now. And I re-arrange, move, etc my things *a lot*. A big, unwieldy hand-built monster with multiple parts, strange protrusions, and a proliferation of wires and shit hanging off … is super non-conducive to what I need out of it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> A nice, enclosed, one-piece thing with handles? With only two wires to deal with? Very ideal for my desires, at least at the moment.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> We'll see if I need to get more hardcore. I can always sell it. (=
<ELLIOTTCABLE> related:
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: meh, you'd change your mind the second you will actually use that machine
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I don't know the community, spaces, whatever. Can you find any corroboration for me on those numbers? i.e. 0.01mm being unrealistic, or even better, any direct commentary on the Othermill project in the industry? If it's truly ridiculous, then I'd complain to Kickstarter about it being mis-represented.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Or, alternatively, what's the easiest way to test that once it lands on my lap :P
<whitequark> 0.01mm being unrealistic: e.g. http://www.cnccookbook.com/MTLatheCNCAccuracy.htm
<ELLIOTTCABLE> looks like perhaps they literally did typo that. 0.01 *inch* would be reasonable, then.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> how old is that article? maybe the state-of-the-art has advanced.
<whitequark> state-of-the-art in mechanics doesn't advance that quickly, or in much places at all
<whitequark> what really bothers me is rigidity of the machine. LDPE flexes very easily
<whitequark> maintaining 0.01mm repeat positioning and moves with an LDPE frame is... sort of delusional
<whitequark> you know what LDPE is? have a supermarket bag? yeah, same stuff, except thicker.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> no, I understand, believe me
<ELLIOTTCABLE> understood from the first sentence. It's crystal clear that rigidity lends repeatibility and accuracy. *shrug*
<purr> ¯\(º_o)/¯
<ELLIOTTCABLE> we
<ELLIOTTCABLE> will have to see.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> again, I'm doing, at best, 1-layer, small-scale PCB work for learning and gadgets.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I won't have the *knowledge-base* to attempt anything more intricate, complex, large, or precise, until after my next move *at least*
<whitequark> next move?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and that move is likely to be away from city life. Which means I'll probably have a garage again, and time to consider more hard-core milling, if I need to.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oh, I forget you haven't known me long :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE> City-life is temporary for me. I'm doing it, to do it, to say I did it. Because I wanted to try the glamorous high-rise floor-to-ceiling views, and the city bars and city social scene, while I was young and not tied down to anything …
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but I'm a country boy in my heart. Guns, dogs, trucks, motherfucking *mountains*, and motherfucking **snow**, are what dwell there.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'll be back to a smaller town in Montana, Colorado, Wyoming, Alaska, or Canada, soon enough. Guaranteed. A year or two at the soonest (I *am* enjoying this life in the city, right now; and I may get a job offer I can't refuse in another city-life location), but five years at the longest.
<whitequark> okay
<whitequark> well, you're welcome to keep your shitty machine *shrug*
<purr> ¯\(º_o)/¯
<whitequark> :D
<whitequark> just saying you *will* regret it
<whitequark> oh also, you should consider setting up some chemistry
<whitequark> because you can't make pretty PCBs without solder mask.
<whitequark> it's like a difference "oh god, you're 25 but already on meth and without teeth" and "I've never seen such pretty round boobs", if you excuse me for a sexist analogy I'm not going to use again
<joelteon> the fuck
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: you've seen the PCB I've shown you before. now imagine that without solder mask, with ugly solder blobs on all the long traces, and significantly less even soldering, because (at least initially and maybe ever) your CNC won't be doing you stencils
<ELLIOTTCABLE> reading
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wat
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hm, how do I solder-mask by hand? COMPLETELY new concept to me.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'm a steady-hand with a soldering iron, but without any knowledge. I learned to when I was like five. :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE> talk words at me.
<whitequark> there's two variants, kinda
<whitequark> one is to use liquid solder mask. that'll require you to basically also learn how to do silkscreening, and from what I understand it's a massive PITA
<whitequark> I mean, I'm probably not going to set up silkscreen tooling any time soon, and that says something
<whitequark> so, that leaves you with dry film solder mask. it's pretty amazing actually. you laminate dry film on PCB, then expose it with UVA through a photomaster done on laser printer, develop, cure under same UVA for 30 min, then it's ready
* ELLIOTTCABLE nods
<whitequark> it's not quite as resistant to abuse as factorymade solder mask and a bit thinner, but it makes a HUGE difference
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I know a very-little about exposure of x-ray film, from a previous life. Sounds similar.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Hm. I don't even have a laser printer. ddis
<ELLIOTTCABLE> (UVA?)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ah, close ultraviolet
<whitequark> yeah, about 400nm
<whitequark> easy to find LEDs, which are so much more convenient than gasdischargelamps
<whitequark> er, gas discharge lamps. learning german.
<whitequark> Nounssquashedtogether.
<whitequark> so
<whitequark> laser printers
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I don't think I've ever even *seen* a laser-printer.
ChanServ changed the topic of #elliottcable to: laser printers are a huge pain in the ass
<joelteon> just like my cock
<whitequark> well, that is, if you want 50µm resolution. otherwise it's fine, meaning you won't get same problems as me.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> can't you just mill through the solder-mask? o_O
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ah, that's backwards. yeah, I'm dumb.
<whitequark> I think it would crumble
<ELLIOTTCABLE> makes sense.
<whitequark> no, I see how you'd think it would work
<ELLIOTTCABLE> anyway.
<whitequark> yea
<ELLIOTTCABLE> laser-printers?
<whitequark> well there's basically two types of consumer printers
<whitequark> laser printers and inkjet printers
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I know
<ELLIOTTCABLE> that much :P
<whitequark> inkjet are those which are slow, have ink with cost literally more than human blood, and screech like a cat being skinned
<whitequark> laser are those which make neat warm paegs
<whitequark> *pages
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: wait
<whitequark> we just found out another problem with your othermill
<whitequark> now it's serious
* ELLIOTTCABLE eyebrow
<whitequark> oh by the way, you were true about typoing. they report 10 mil accuracy which is exactly 0.01"
<whitequark> anyway, that problem
<whitequark> is that othermill only works with FR-1
<whitequark> normal PCBs are FR-4
<whitequark> that may sound innocious, but the problem is
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yeah, read about that, briefly
<ELLIOTTCABLE> go on
<whitequark> FR-1 is basically cardboard. it was considered shit even in USSR in 1980s, which is also about the last place and time when it was ever used by anyone same
<whitequark> I'm not joking about cardboard, I think it's even called literally "electrocardboard" in russian
<whitequark> which means you can't actually mill anything a sane person would consider PCB
<whitequark> because
<whitequark> FR-1 is so much weaker and easier to work with than FR-4.
* ELLIOTTCABLE nods
<ELLIOTTCABLE> 'kay, that'd make sense
<ELLIOTTCABLE> “easier to work with?” and that's a bad thing?
<whitequark> it's really sad
<whitequark> it will easily delaminate while soldering for example
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I mean, presumably, we're not talking about how easy it is to break with your hands, or something. what're the practical downsides to printing circuits on that sort of board?
<whitequark> it has negligible structural quantities, meaning easily fracturing PCB
<whitequark> and you *will* subject your PCBs to stress, for example
<whitequark> while using mechanical connectors. You press on it, right?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hm. This is interesting.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Their website (newer) and Kickstarter (older) disagree on specs
<whitequark> show me
<ELLIOTTCABLE> kick claims 0.1 mil *traces*, but doesn't mention the actual accuracy at all; while the website claims 0.001". Which as you've said is ridiculous.
<whitequark> 0.1 mil is bullshit
<ELLIOTTCABLE> also, it says it can do FR-1, doesn't mention FR-4 at all, but *does* say it can mill aluminum and brass.
<whitequark> 2 mil traces is 50 micrometers
<ELLIOTTCABLE> how the fuck can it do (even soft-ish) metals, if it can't do harder PCB stock?
<whitequark> human hair is 40 micrometers, for comparison.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> sorry
<ELLIOTTCABLE> mis-read
<ELLIOTTCABLE> 10 mil*
<whitequark> 10 mil is 0.254mm, which sounds ok with soft materials
<whitequark> my bet is, it can't really mill aluminium OR can, but in ridiculously thin layers => hours and hours of work for trivial parts
<ELLIOTTCABLE> what does 10 mil traces require, in terms of accuracy? presumably *much* higher accuracy is required for reliably smaller traces?
<whitequark> um
<ELLIOTTCABLE> or to re-phrase, for a claimed-magical 0.001" accuracy, could it do better than 10mil traces? (i.e. are the two stats out of sync, or not. I can't tell, I don't know enough.)
<whitequark> well, I'm pulling an estimate out of my ass but: accuracy means it's within Xmm of desired position. so being 10 mill out of place means trace is broken.
<whitequark> 5 mil accuracy would allow you to do *poor* 10 mil traces.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hm. will have to experiment.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> worst-case, I can probably complain enough and get them to take it back, if it's truly shite.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'm good at that kind of thing. :P
<whitequark> so
<whitequark> claimed-magical accuracy would give you 0.05mm aka 2mil traces semireliably
<whitequark> which is WAY better than you'll ever need for any practical thing
<whitequark> I mean, you can basically make ICs with 1mil accuracy (not really but first IC used 0.04mm node)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> omfg that guy
<whitequark> 10mil is a totally good trace width for hobbyists, and in fact for most nonhobbyists
<ELLIOTTCABLE> V = IR on the trace
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'm going to cum all over my keyboard. Seriously.
<whitequark> yeah, so?
<whitequark> um
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Instantly-developed fetish for pretty circuits.
<whitequark> sorry?
<whitequark> ah
<whitequark> got it
<whitequark> sure
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> so. back to othermill.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Explain to me what's so difficult about FR-4, that if it can cut soft metals, it *can't* cut FR-4?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> or is that a really dumb question? 'splain.
<whitequark> FR-4 is fiberglass epoxy composite
<whitequark> think cutting glass of 1/2 thickness of PCB
<whitequark> it's a very rough and bad comparison but it gets idea across
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hm?
<whitequark> FR-4 is notorious for dulling tools and is quite strong
<ELLIOTTCABLE> iiiinteresting
<ELLIOTTCABLE> is there any middle-ground, or something, by the way? ignoring Othermill? that sounds un-fun.
<whitequark> um
<whitequark> see, I never exactly hunted for prettiness in machinery
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I know :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE> we're very different people. Still going to leech everything you know :D
<whitequark> okay, lemme check ebay
<whitequark> oh btw
<whitequark> pricetag?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> huh?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> checking ebay for what?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> no
<whitequark> for a CNC suitable for you
<ELLIOTTCABLE> sorry didn't mean for mill
<whitequark> ooooh, for PCB manuf?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I mean, PCB-wise, is there another option for home-milled boards, that isn't as pain-in-the-ass to work with as FR-4
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but you make FR-1 sounds atrocious :P
<whitequark> no, not really. 100% of electronics world moved to FR-4 for a goddamn reason
<whitequark> because FR-4 is optimal for the job
<ELLIOTTCABLE> dick
<whitequark> you'd probably have a hard time sourcing FR-1 too, it's the first time I hear *anyone* used it in ages
<whitequark> FR-2, yeah, a bunch of times
<whitequark> but never FR-1
<ELLIOTTCABLE> is that a gradual increase, or completely different things?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> i.e. is FR-2 incrementally stronger than FR-1?
<whitequark> lol, FR1 is so obscure I can't even google a spec on it
<purr> lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hm, how does this speak, towards the accuracy?
<whitequark> hang on
<whitequark> scale?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I mean, it's clearly just wax, but the accuracy at least, if not the power, can be gleaned
<ELLIOTTCABLE> no idea
<whitequark> well... that doesn't look very good
<ELLIOTTCABLE> there's the moon on a keyboard
<whitequark> normally you can get a mirror finish on a material with the accuracy they claim
<ELLIOTTCABLE> “The surface of the moon: 0.001" stepover, 45° cut paths. If all that sounds like magic to you, that's okay. What this means is that our machine is holding its promise of +/- 0.001" repeatability and accuracy.”
<whitequark> surface of the moon?
<whitequark> that's not what on pic
<ELLIOTTCABLE> second link has the pic
<whitequark> okay, THAT definitely looks more realistic
<whitequark> yep, can believe .001" repeat positioning with that
<whitequark> perhaps with a stretch but I can
<ELLIOTTCABLE> BUT, that's wax.
<whitequark> exactly.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> if I have this right in my head,
<ELLIOTTCABLE> then the harder the material, the *more* rigidity will affect precision?
<whitequark> absolutely
<ELLIOTTCABLE> i.e. very precision mechanics with an un-rigid frame will lend high precision on wax, but low precision on aluminum
<ELLIOTTCABLE> mmm. explains the FR-1.
<whitequark> well, see
<whitequark> mechanics is also rather heavy
<ELLIOTTCABLE> then that begs the next question: how hard would it be to replace the entire frame? 'cuz it sounds like their hardware is pretty damn good, otherwise
<whitequark> meaning: 1) just moving it around redistributes forces on frame and it flexes
<whitequark> well, seems they mostly avoided that, based on that moon pic
<ELLIOTTCABLE> attaching the gear, rigidly, to a new frame, would be no small undertaking, I presume
<whitequark> but hard to say for sure
<ELLIOTTCABLE> when I get it, I'll let you send me some files to run for test! :D
<ELLIOTTCABLE> we'll find out.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> anyway. so. back to solder-mask.
<whitequark> wait
<ELLIOTTCABLE> got a link for me, getting-started? hopefully I don't need expensive equipment.
<whitequark> 2) when you perform high-speed feeds, which you absolutely do want, frame also flexes.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> presumably just the solution, a bucket to submerge, and a UV light?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and a laser-printer, I suppose, although I'm not clear on why
<ELLIOTTCABLE> okay waiting, go on
<ELLIOTTCABLE> soz
<whitequark> (reattaching to a more rigid frame) it's not a task for you
<whitequark> first it wouldn't be pretty
<whitequark> do I even need to continue?
<whitequark> well, then it's just a no small task. for instance you'd already need to be familiar with CAD.
<whitequark> then you probably wouldn't assemble it the right way the first time
<whitequark> then after you do assemble it, it can easily turn out it doesn't work, for whatever reason.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> k, got it.
<whitequark> ok, solder mask
<whitequark> it's very easy thankfully. you will need:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> presumably it's a chicken-and-egg problem. Need a wildly-more-precise machine, to create parts of enough precision, themselves, to lend precision to the resultant construct.
<whitequark> nono, you can easily make a frame with your hands and a caliper
<whitequark> in fact making parts for a CNC would require you to have a *bigger* cnc, first and foremost
<whitequark> considered that, here.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> interesting.
<whitequark> guess how I would be making that CNC, if you took me up on offer? hands and caliper
<whitequark> and someone's mother
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wat
<whitequark> oh, you're not russian
<whitequark> it's an idiomatic expression.
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> kk.
<whitequark> meaning, um
<whitequark> "I will swear a lot while making it"
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hey, another strange question.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Oh, I get it. Cute.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> by-product of milling.
<whitequark> dust, yeah
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Are the passes small enough that much of it becomes airborne? How much is ventilation an issue? Health issues?
<whitequark> you'd want to get chips out of the way ASAP, in no small part to enhance tool life
<ELLIOTTCABLE> also, will it dust up MY ENTIRE ROOM with fuckin' weird-ass fiberglass shit
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and/or aluminum dust
<whitequark> oh it's a funny question. see, there's such a thing as "chipload", meaning how big chips does your tool cut
<whitequark> you can vary it youself, by modifying toolpath parameters.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> presumably finer accuracy means smaller chips
<whitequark> you can make it very small or very big. both are bad.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hm
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but realistically, you do this shit a lot. Is your room now dusty as fuck? :P
<whitequark> very small means you're burnishing the workpiece, releasing heat, and rubbing the cutter. it damages both cutter and workpiece
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I have carpet in here, so I'm wondering how difficult it's going to be to clean milling-byproduct away.
<whitequark> very big means the tool is deflecting and will break soon.
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<whitequark> well, no, FR4 dust doesn't get more than 10cm away from the mill, but...
<whitequark> I always mill with a vacuum cleaner on and moving its inlet (manually for now) near the cutter, because less chips in way of cutter = better finish and longer tool life
<whitequark> so, no, with a proper toolpath FR4 crap will stand wherever the mill is.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hm
<ELLIOTTCABLE> that sounds easily automatable.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> why not just clamp a powerful one to the back of the milling-platform, or something?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> maybe use a hood around the whole thing, idk
<whitequark> well, there are several things
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<whitequark> one is fittings. you need 1) a pipe that won't collapse and which you can run to near your cutter 2) a way to attach other end of that pipe to your vacuum cleaner
<ELLIOTTCABLE> collapse? hm?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> why a pipe?
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> I've got this sitting in storage, maybe I'll bring it out and set it up under the desk the mill'll sit on.
<whitequark> well, you generally need rather powerful suction to remove chips out of grooves
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hm k
<whitequark> it's less of an issue with engraving, which is what you do, and more of an issue with milling
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oh, I'm definitely interested in being able to mill parts
<whitequark> e.g. I find it that keeping it at 10cm of the cutter removes the crap from around but doesn't assist tool
<whitequark> I've seen a cool hood-style mod somewhere, for identical machine to my 3020T...
<ELLIOTTCABLE> not steel, at this point in my life … (although I'm a firearms nut, and milling gun parts is *totally* a foreseeable interest, half a decade down the road, when I have a garage and room for that shit)
<whitequark> but you won't be able to do that to your othermill.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but aluminum parts? yes.
<whitequark> steel is *hard*.
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<whitequark> you need proper CNC for steel. I don't think mine is able to mill steel.
<whitequark> hard both as in, a PITA to use, and has high hardness :p
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<whitequark> for steel you'd want a proper CNC mill. by the way, terminology:
<whitequark> router is when tool moves. mill is when table moves.
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<whitequark> everyone calls routers mills, but it's not quite correct, outside of context
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hey, side-note
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Othermill, like Arduino, seems pretty straight-forward about themselves, in some ways:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> “Create custom circuits that fit into odd 3D printed parts, integrate seamlessly into clothing, and free up your Arduino for another project.”
<ELLIOTTCABLE> They're *owning* the fact that they're here for hobbyists and makers, not engineers. Interesting.
<whitequark> well... wax should've told you everything
<whitequark> I even think PCB is maybe a side effect of that machine
<ELLIOTTCABLE> mmhmm
<whitequark> I'm actually sure about it
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and FRM-1
<ELLIOTTCABLE> FR-1*
<ELLIOTTCABLE> lagging, wtf
<whitequark> that reminds me, I still didn't find spec for FR-1
<whitequark> whatever the fuck that is
<whitequark> so FR-2 is paper in epoxy
<whitequark> FR-4 is fiberglass in epoxy
<whitequark> FR-1 is ???
<whitequark> ??? in epoxy, probably.
<whitequark> that doesn't tell absolutely anything
<whitequark> well, besides whatever we already know
<whitequark> by the way
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: 19:54 < whitequark> wpwrak: you're an expert on weird shit. whatever the hell FR-1 is? can't find it
<ELLIOTTCABLE> David Penney on Oct 7: Does anybody know of any UK / European suppliers for double sided FR-1 copper-clad PCB?
<whitequark> 19:54 < DocScrutinizer05> any sufficiently rigid and plane material will do
<whitequark> 19:54 < whitequark> toilet paper in epoxy?
<whitequark> 19:54 < whitequark> no, sounds too strong. toilet paper in wood glue?
<whitequark> 19:54 < DocScrutinizer05> kinda
<whitequark> 19:54 < DocScrutinizer05> I guess
<whitequark> 19:54 < whitequark> lol
<purr> lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Creator Otherfab on Oct 7: We don't know of anyone, though we certainly have our eye out. Does anyone in the community have a good European supplier? We'd love to know about them.
<whitequark> 19:54 < wpwrak> bakelite ? must be something before my time :)
<whitequark> yes, exactly
<whitequark> so far I only found it on alibaba
<whitequark> LOL
<whitequark> 19:55 < DocScrutinizer05> epoxy is too modern
<whitequark> 19:55 < wpwrak> epoxy is way too modern
<ELLIOTTCABLE> FR-1 is listed on Wikipedia, btw
<ELLIOTTCABLE> “There are quite a few different dielectrics that can be chosen to provide different insulating values depending on the requirements of the circuit. Some of these dielectrics are polytetrafluoroethylene (Teflon), FR-4, FR-1, CEM-1 or CEM-3.”
<whitequark> there's no article on FR-1
<ELLIOTTCABLE> didn't mean the article
<ELLIOTTCABLE> just pointing out that it's listed along FR-4, which is strange
<whitequark> sure, it's same class of crap
<whitequark> aha, found it on german wiki
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<whitequark> it's not epoxy even, it's phenolformalgedyde resin and extra cheap paper
<whitequark> "Pertinax (see also hard tissue ) evaporate always small amounts of phenol and formaldehyde , which not only produces a strong odor, but also in the mechanical working is a health hazard."
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<whitequark> good fucking luck with that, formaldehyde is a carcinogen I'm not working with
<whitequark> 19:58 < wpwrak> oh, there's "cheap" pertinax, too ? i'm impressed
<whitequark> 19:58 < DocScrutinizer05> indeed, me too
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<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: please do ask about FR-1 emitting phenol and formaldehyde vapours
<whitequark> that's downright malicious. it IS a significant health risk, banned by OSHA and others
<whitequark> iirc, reproductive toxicity and carcinogenic
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<whitequark> also by this point I am pretty sure the project leaders have absolutely no fucking clue whatever they're doing. that they got that accuracy on wax is *surprising*.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> “Shockwave Flash has crashed.” https://cloudup.com/cmDQ9HKnQT0
<whitequark> *no* engineer in their right mind would advice anyone to use FR-1 for PCBs, much less advertise the device *just* for FR-1 and not even state that fact very clearly in description
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<whitequark> I mean, I didn't even notice it first time. it's buried.
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<whitequark> it's not downright fraud, but their behavior is highly unethical. whitequark done.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> lol.
<purr> lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> we'll see how this goes, might merit a SCAAAAAATHING blog post. ;)
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> but really. If it turns out a complaint to Kickstarter is in order … /=
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: btw, looking at its frame right now
<whitequark> I think I could build a machine of similar prettiness, given some effort
<whitequark> of course the frame would be purely decorative and maybe assist keeping the chips out of room
<whitequark> putting a controller under the frame is... a bit dumb, because dust *will* get under, and on a good machine you *need* a fan to cool it down.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Why not do a real, useful, rigid frame,
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and a sort of outer frame to enclose it all, handle dust, make it easily portable, etceteras?
<whitequark> that's just what I said. usually it is not done because 1) you would want to access it from sides, to align workpiece, watch, change tools, etc...
<whitequark> 2) it adds cost for no good reason (for most people)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hm
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Feel like it'd be fairly easy to assauge those concerns.
<whitequark> 3) it adds to weight, meaning more expensive shipping (I paid more than $300 in shipping. I am NOT happy.)
<whitequark> shipping doesn't apply to you ofcourse
<whitequark> well
<ELLIOTTCABLE> 1. removable, or openings, or doors, or whatever, 2. cheap material, since it doesn't need to affect rigidity, 3. doesn't add volume if it's snug
<whitequark> no, weight
<ELLIOTTCABLE> weight either if it's a cheap material, and thin
<whitequark> this shit is shipped by weight. my CNC was weighing 26kg
<ELLIOTTCABLE> maybe you should start on an Othermill competitor :P
<whitequark> well, if it's thin, how would it make it more easily portable?
<whitequark> I mean you couldn't handle it by the case
<whitequark> remember: 26kg of metal
<whitequark> well 20kg if you only count the machine itself. that's a *lot*.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> the case doesn't add to portability by being *holdable*, it's by being *contained*. No bonking into things when being carried or bunked together with other stuff; no parts falling or hanging out.
<whitequark> I can barely move it with my bare hands (yeah I'm not strong. but I usually have no problems with that.)
<whitequark> um
<ELLIOTTCABLE> handles could easily be directly attached to the frame, and made of a sturdier material, no?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> 57lbs, two hands, yeah, easily do-able
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but yours is also *huge*
<whitequark> huge?
<whitequark> it's the smallest one I found
<ELLIOTTCABLE> point here is to target the market that wants something relatively small, portable, and doesn't care too much about capabilities being extreme
<whitequark> 3020. 30x20cm. there's 3040 and 6040.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and probably cheaper than the Othermill
<whitequark> it's cheap because it has shit electronics and made in a sweatship in China, in no small part
<whitequark> *sweatshop
<whitequark> manufacturing it anywhere except China instantly makes your cost skyrocket
<whitequark> as for making a competitor... no way I'm competent enough to *manage* project of that size
<whitequark> and in fact I don't think I want. I'd be literally killing myself over 1-2 years.
<whitequark> I'm a bit too familiar with the process to actively want to be a participant. kthx I'll watch from the gallery
<whitequark> maybe sometime after I *participate* in several other ones, to gain required knowledge, to become more tolerant to state of continuous fuckup... maybe.
<whitequark> anyway. cnc6040 for example weighs 57kg
<whitequark> most likely about 53kg of that is frame
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* ELLIOTTCABLE nods
<ELLIOTTCABLE> well, all for consideration later.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> anyway!
<ELLIOTTCABLE> solder mask? we got side-tracked
<whitequark> ah, soldermask
<whitequark> fortunately just for soldermask it is very simple. you need:
<whitequark> 1) dry film solder mask. http://www.ebay.com/itm/161140135802. it's quite good.
<whitequark> guy claims it's used in industry, I won't be surprised--its parameters are very close to a real solder mask.
<whitequark> 2) K₂CO₃, 250g can. it's usually not sold in smaller quantities.
<whitequark> that'll be enough for a lifetime and cost $10
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<whitequark> 3) some rather planar container, e.g. I found that plastic containers for food with rubber gasket are quite good for that
<whitequark> 4) soft acrylic brush to assist removal
<whitequark> 5) laser printer
<ELLIOTTCABLE> got a link?
<whitequark> 6) good transparent film for laser printer. e.g. I bought Lomond 0707415 125µm PET film
<ELLIOTTCABLE> either to materials, or better yet, to a getting-started kinda thing. a good one.
<whitequark> it's my own findings in no small part, some weeks of experimentation
<whitequark> if you want, I can publish tomorrow a tutorial on http://lab.whitequark.org
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<whitequark> I'm rather anal about tools&materials in those, eg: http://lab.whitequark.org/notes/2014-02-22/optimizing-for-best-photomaster-quality/
<whitequark> by the way, that particular link is relevant for you
<ELLIOTTCABLE> “ That’s not how millimeters work.”
<ELLIOTTCABLE> dying
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: also: "The results are horrifying" and two identical images :p
<whitequark> but you know what, when I look at it with eyes, it really does horrify me
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wat
<whitequark> so not really a joking exaggeration
<whitequark> hm?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> they don't look the same. numbers are distorted on my monitor, on the right.
<whitequark> oh, you've seen it instantly. that's... impressive
<whitequark> because I've missed that for several days
<whitequark> while working with the real thing
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<whitequark> that was all done with the right one
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I have spectacularly good eyes. And fingers. They're my biggest blessings, second to a desire to learn.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Or maybe something-something-something-sex-something. *shrug*
<purr> ¯\(º_o)/¯
<whitequark> you should be good at handjobs
<whitequark> yeah, that
<ELLIOTTCABLE> When I was actively programming, I could type (English, not code, clearly) at over 140wpm … not standard touch-typing, I do a really weird thing with two fingers on my left hand, and only the middle finger on my right. (not kidding.) I had approximately 20 / 6 vision in both eyes half a decade ago, and would estimate that it's still approximately 20 / 10
<ELLIOTTCABLE> or better.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> My blessings, so to speak. ('=
<ELLIOTTCABLE> whitequark: laminator? for what?
<whitequark> (touch typing) how much chars/s in that?
<whitequark> I can type about 10chars/s
<whitequark> at most
<ELLIOTTCABLE> “Conversely, Characters per minute, or CPM, is equal to the WPM measurement times five.”
<whitequark> wow, yours is longer
<ELLIOTTCABLE> 11.6, apparently
<ELLIOTTCABLE> longer?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> my accuracy is often shit, though. Which I blame on the tests. :P
<whitequark> a russian idiomatic expression, referring to comparing some irrelevant numbers as to comparing lengths of dicks
<whitequark> such as, "my CPU is 1000MHz! mine is 1500! okay, yours is longer"
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I *completely* depend on a symbiotic relationship with the device I'm typing on. I type blazing-fast on CoreText input fields on OS X. I type **blazing** motherfucking fast with two thumbs on an iOS 6 keyboard, with completion / correction enabled.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> But as soon as you give me some sort of custom input bullshit, that has different spelling-correction oddities, or different feedback, I goes right to shit. I can't handle it. I have to hunt-and-peck *excruciatingly* slow. Maybe 60wpm at best. /=
<whitequark> well duh. I like to amuse people by typing russian on a keyboard which doesn't even have russian letters
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<whitequark> tbh when I ordered the keyboard, I didn't notice that it only has english letters
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but when I'm in my element, it truly is impressive. I'm very proud of it.
<whitequark> and when I installed it, I didn't notice that it only has english letters, as well
<whitequark> then at some moment it dawned on me
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I can turn my head, and hold a whole conversation without looking at the screen, and spit out entire paragraphs at ≥100 WPM, without errors.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> The person I'm talking to *invariably* trails off and stares at my hands, while I slowly start to grin at them :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yeah, whitequark, definitely do a tutorial.
<whitequark> I couldn't track two conversations at once if my life hinged on it
<whitequark> tutorial, ok
<whitequark> I'm going to make a *huge*, interactive tutorial on making factory-quality PCBs, sometime after I figure that out myself.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'll drop you 25 mBTC. As a donation, 'cuz I love your work. (=
<whitequark> 2-layer, throughhole plating, mask, silkscreen, and solderpaste stencils to finish it off.
<whitequark> oh, yeah, figure that out myself and then develop a completely novel chemical process, because the one I use you US folks couldn't.
<whitequark> because one of the chemicals for it is on DEA Schedule I.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> why?
<whitequark> fucktards
<whitequark> in DEA
<whitequark> because, apparently, you can use it to make raw iodine, which you apparently can then use to make meth
<whitequark> well guess what, bitches, you can make iodine with just about fucking anything
<whitequark> like, stuff you can easily buy in home depot
<joelteon> well home depot is a DEA schedule I home improvement store
<whitequark> why the fuck they felt a reason to ban a completely innocious chemical *very* useful in metal plating is fucking beyond me
<whitequark> I hope they fucking choke and die
<ELLIOTTCABLE> lol.
<purr> lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> uh.
<whitequark> like, Russian banned chemical list is basically
<ELLIOTTCABLE> whitequark: what's your bitcoin address, again? didn't I send you a couple mBTC once before? I can't find the tx.
<whitequark> DEA Schedule I except iodine and that chemical
<whitequark> calcium hypophosphite for the record
<whitequark> 1LsQH7VDtoWTgPWE5Vo5NR4noAHyyLcRKp
<whitequark> anyway, I'm first going to try it with hypophosphite and then pester my former inorgchem teacher to develop a better process
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wtf
<ELLIOTTCABLE> WHERE IS THIS TX
<whitequark> he already dropped some suggestions with organic copper salts but they all appear to decompose slightly above pcb delamination temperature
<whitequark> so it seems it won't *quite* work just like that
<whitequark> I'm hoping there's some catalyst or someshit for that, because otherwise it's a pain in the ass
<whitequark> couldn't find useful papers either
<whitequark> good thing I can easily obtain and/or synthesize everything I'd need for that in RU... likely would be a regulatory nightmare in EU/US
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wat
<whitequark> what wat?
<whitequark> and I mean, it's not exactly like banning elemental iodine and all simple ways to get it, you know, helped the meth epidemic in the US
<whitequark> OR not banning made it worse in RU
<whitequark> so as I've already
<whitequark> said
<whitequark> fucktards.
<whitequark> useless little shits eating their fat bellies off your taxes
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<whitequark> do they even know how *exactly* hard is it to find a good reducer on the same order as a hypophosphite anion? I bet they have no fucking idea, because they're thoroughly incompetent not in *drug enforcement*, but also in *not drug enforcement* or in other words
<whitequark> failures as humans
<whitequark> DO I SOUND ANGRY ENOUGH RIGHT NOW?!
* whitequark breaks the keyboard over his knee
<whitequark> ... no? sigh. and I made so much effort.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wat
<whitequark> what wat?
<whitequark> did I successfully make an impression of an angry libertarian? for some inexplicable reason I really want to be able to do that.
<whitequark> I mean, that or Samuel L. Jackson, but the latter is way out of my league
<whitequark> yeah
* whitequark shrugs
<purr> ¯\(º_o)/¯
<whitequark> I didn't buy btc at $400
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hm?
<whitequark> because motherfucking Bank of Russia wrote a motherfucking statement about bitcoin
<whitequark> that it is, apparently, useful as an instrument of speculation
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so?
<whitequark> and while it did *not* legally forbid exchanging bitcoins, basically all simple ways to buy BTC in RU are henceforth nonexistent
<ELLIOTTCABLE> that sucks. /=
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ick.
<whitequark> because all exchanges removed themselves proactively.
<whitequark> so now I'm stuck with about 4 BTC
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'll buy 'em off you right now, if you'll give me a good price.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'll do $US 520 apeice.
<whitequark> naw, I meant it the other way
<whitequark> I can't buy more.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ah, yah
<whitequark> I do have use for them, barring even speculation
* ELLIOTTCABLE nods
<whitequark> e.g. in a bizarre twist of fate, I can pay for RU utilities in BTC
<whitequark> my phone provider. my VoIP provider. apartment, er
<ELLIOTTCABLE> that's awesome.
<whitequark> apartment things I've no idea how called in english
<ELLIOTTCABLE> watttttttttt
<whitequark> well
<ELLIOTTCABLE> analogize?
<whitequark> in russian it's "communal payments"
<ELLIOTTCABLE> HOA?
<whitequark> which I feel would 100% never fly in US
<whitequark> hmmm
<whitequark> 1. it pays for water, cooking gas (methane) (if available), central heating, antennae, electronic locks in driveway, and shit like that
<ELLIOTTCABLE> okay.
<whitequark> 2. a separate bill pays for electricity
<whitequark> 1+2 are "communal payments"
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so, need to roll, but, summary here for my current concerns:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> there's no *expensive* components to the resist layer process, yes? just basically a tub.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> how much *space* do I need? The extents of my ACTUAL WORKING AREA, right now, are very constrained.
<whitequark> um, yeah, resist is cheap. you could probably set everything up in under $50. with time, even less.
<whitequark> space? well... lemme measure
<ELLIOTTCABLE> equipment, and ergonomics, and arrangement of tools, has me constrained to approximately 70 x 45mm working space
<whitequark> my comfortable working area for Resist Operations is about 70x70cm
<whitequark> yeah you could definitely fit to that, if you're ok in not keeping all relevant equipment on working surface at all times
<whitequark> I prefer to keep it, because
<whitequark> when you try this shit 11 times in a row
<ELLIOTTCABLE> more like 115mm if the laptop isn't up there in my way (i.e. if I don't need to be googling anything, or using the microscope digitally, or running any simulations or calculations or code or debuggers.)
<whitequark> rearranging equipment REALLY gets under your skin
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yeah no I don't keep everything on surface
<whitequark> 11cm?!
<ELLIOTTCABLE> it's all set up right now to be very dynamic to the current task
<whitequark> 11cm is way too small to ever comfortably work
<whitequark> no matter what you do
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I basically *work* in the same 3k cm^2, for any task, just re-arranging tools or equipment.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> sorry, 115cm*
<ELLIOTTCABLE> photos were posted the other night, did you take a gander?
<whitequark> I did
<whitequark> 115cm is 100% fine
<ELLIOTTCABLE> basically everything from the edge of the microscope's base when it's folded back like that, over to the right-hand end of the table, is clear. Laptop's only there sometimes, and it's obviously set up to be easy to remove.
<whitequark> you'll fit everything
* ELLIOTTCABLE nods
<ELLIOTTCABLE> excellent
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I thought so, just checking
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oh random question.
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> quickly list the ten hand-tools (not including multimeter, or third-hand tool, or magnifying glass … you know, like pliers, scissors, tweezers, drill, whatever) that you use the most often.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> or, alternatively, quickly list off all the tools actually sitting out on your bench within reach, if you're the type to keep it mostly clean and only keep the necessary stuff out usually.
<whitequark> in order: side cutter, pliers, straight tweezers, curved tweezers, stainless steel scissors, universal screwdriver, xacto knife... that's 7
<ELLIOTTCABLE> side cutter? i.e. flush cutter, yeah?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> scissors, why?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> what all do you find yourself using them for?
<whitequark> right now on my bench also (apart from those all): 3rd hand, acrylic brush, spatula, but that's because I'm set up for resist
<whitequark> right now I'm heavily focused on photolitography
<whitequark> (resist thingies)
<whitequark> hence, scissors to cut resist and photomasters.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> acrylic brush? brush-for-acrylic, or brush-made-from-acrylic?
<whitequark> made frmo
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I've got a pair of adorably tiny ESD-safe brushes I'll be keeping handy
<whitequark> it's one of regular painting brushes I bought in a convenience store
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oh that's right, mask, k
<whitequark> oooh also
<whitequark> vernier caliper, should be about 3rd
<whitequark> last 2 would be IR thermometer and scales
<whitequark> again because of chemistry stuff I do right now
<ELLIOTTCABLE> vernier? wat?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I've got a cheap-ish digital caliper, good enough, I hope.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> scales, as in, weighing, yes?
<whitequark> fuck digital, I don't want my instruments to stop working because "LOL NO BATTERY"
<purr> LOL
<ELLIOTTCABLE> got a counting scale I don't really keep handy
<whitequark> fuck all about that. instruments must last literally forever.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but I'm thinking of throwing a shelf up *above* my pick-bins, and I might put it there
<whitequark> I advise you to get a dial caliper though, it's easier on eyes
<whitequark> or you prolly not care about it
<whitequark> so. scale. yeah, weights
<whitequark> chemistry kinda-requires that if you want to be precise
<whitequark> and I do.
<whitequark> "1tbsp" ← FUCK YOU
<whitequark> with a fucking spoon in your ass
<ELLIOTTCABLE> lololol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> prime <3
<whitequark> I bought cheapest kitchen scales I found
<whitequark> because I was greedy at that moment
<whitequark> they're shit though. 1g resolution too
<whitequark> also, whoever the fuck made it is a moron
<whitequark> because they autoreset after a minute *and reset tare weight*
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wat
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wat even
<whitequark> well, when you start working
<whitequark> you zero them
<whitequark> and on these scales button "on" and button "zero" are basically same thing
<whitequark> and they turn off after 60s
<whitequark> without any way to tell them not to
<whitequark> it's downright malicious.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yes, I know what taring is.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hence me wtf'ing at that.
<whitequark> (flush cutter) yes
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<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: so... got smth else to ask?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hmmmm not this second; off doing other things
<whitequark> ah ok
<whitequark> ... which is to say, all of lab.wq.org :D
<whitequark> at the moment
<whitequark> hahaha
<whitequark> russia
<whitequark> winter is coming
<whitequark> the wall is up to 8m high
<whitequark> it really is The Wall.
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<glowcoil> hi
<purr> glowcoil: hi!
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hi, glowcoil
<ELLIOTTCABLE> read the backlog, it's interesting
<ELLIOTTCABLE> about PCB, milling/routing, lab setup …
<ELLIOTTCABLE> fun stuff with whitequark.
<glowcoil> yeah long backlog
<ELLIOTTCABLE> reply, if you're up for it
<whitequark> I did
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: I would definitely write another comment on kickstarter page asking for MSDS for FR-1
<ELLIOTTCABLE> After getting a reply there, maybe.
<whitequark> *nod*
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: do you know your twitter page only shows tweets up to 20 Feb ?
<whitequark> I mean, really: https://twitter.com/ELLIOTTCABLE
<ELLIOTTCABLE> saw
<ELLIOTTCABLE> no idea why
<alexgordon> sup ELLIOTTCABLE