ChanServ changed the topic of #elliottcable to: boobs
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<alexgordon> GUYS GUYS TALK TO ME ABOUT LANGUAGES
<whitequark> .
<gq> alexgordon: parles-tu francais?
<alexgordon> gq: le lard de narval est à minuit
<gq> lol
<purr> lol
<gq> alexgordon: 7/10, would probably eat
* alexgordon just googled "chocolate bacon"
<gq> alexgordon: ...how high are you right now
<alexgordon> gq: I am not a square, but a rhombus
<alexgordon> -ovoids
<purr> alexgordon: http://pastebin.com/RP1hWBHP
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<gq> alexgordon: white goo dreeping down your strema?
<alexgordon> FUCKING ALEXGORDON. SOMEBODY FUCKING FIND HIM YOU FICKS
<gq> and there were the robot addentnas helping
<alexgordon> man I have to back this up
<alexgordon> I love how sephr never breaks character
<gq> i just love the whole thing
<gq> it never ceases to amuse
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<glowcoil> devyn: you ended your last message with a comma and i can't feel resolved unless you follow it up
<glowcoil> relevant xkcd lol shutup
<purr> lol
<glowcoil> whitequark: seeing a set of inputs continuosuly evaluated to their outputs live is not a special case
<glowcoil> whitequark: it's for every pure function ever
<alexgordon> glowcoil: the universe is a pure function!
<glowcoil> alexgordon: well it's probably a discrete transition function from state to state in the end
<glowcoil> alexgordon: a new kind of science graph theory etc.
<alexgordon> WOLFRAM IS A CUNT
<whitequark> glowcoil: newsflash: most functions in real-world software are anything but pure
<whitequark> throw in a database and practically every nontrivial function becomes impure
<alexgordon> man that is turning my rhombus into an irregular parallelogram
<whitequark> hell, even parsers
<whitequark> fucking parsers can be fucking stateful
<alexgordon> WOO LEMON
<whitequark> no, intrinsically. semantic environment, lexer state, all that shit
<alexgordon> right... lemon!
<whitequark> if life gives you fucking lemons
<whitequark> you make fucking grenades AND FUCKING KILL IT
* whitequark is high on avm2
<alexgordon> reading all this about bacon is making me hungry
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<glowcoil> whitequark: that's not even relevant
<glowcoil> whitequark: if you're making as radical changes to your programming environment as i am envisioning then you are probably not interfacing this with all your old code
<whitequark> then we're back to the "toy language" problem
<whitequark> meaning:
<whitequark> 1) real-world software *always* has to interact with legacy code, but even barring that
<whitequark> 2) legacy code is written the way it is, for a good reason
<whitequark> in this particular case, because the process is more easily represented as stateful, or, equivalently important, the process is built around interaction with external stateful service
<whitequark> so are you saying to throw out, say, all existing databases in favor of some insane pure crap?
<whitequark> it's not even possible in general case
<whitequark> try, say, using less haskell and reading more real-world, shitty, valuable code. especially written by someone whose main occupation is not a programmer.
<whitequark> since those are the people most likely to benefit from the changes... professional programmers don't have that much problems with cli and abstractions anyway
<whitequark> (and have more problems relearning to a completely different technique)
<devyn> .NET programmers usually avoid the CLI
<devyn> so I wouldn't say that
<devyn> I've seen people build ridiculous GUIs to do things they could have made CLIs for in two seconds for no good reason
<devyn> other than that they don't like it
<whitequark> okay, scratch the cli part
<whitequark> it's really about abstraction anyway in this case
<glowcoil> whitequark: jesus christ you are such a pessimist
<glowcoil> whitequark: i haven't written a fucking line of anything but java or javascript in months and months
<glowcoil> whitequark: certainly no haskell
<whitequark> that wasn't meant to be read literally. anyway, the bottom line is, what you (or it seems to me: more bret victor so far; perhaps I misunderstand) propose does work but a set of rather narrow cases which are a sweet spot for this technique
<whitequark> and it doesn't work at all for code which does not hit said sweet spot
<glowcoil> remember how many times i said embrace plurality and don't try to use one representation
<glowcoil> i disagree with bret victor, i think he rejects what's there without providing what he imagines as a platonic ideal
<whitequark> sure, but this technique does not exactly combine easily with others
<whitequark> for example it requires you to have a) pure algorithm b) impure harness around it to display results c) with a clear distinction between both where you can hook your environment
<whitequark> and if you want to apply it more than once, you have to pull more and more code in the pure part
<whitequark> well, combine other pure parts to make bigger ones. anyhow, see why I said 'haskell' ?
<glowcoil> everything you just said is wrong
<whitequark> please do explain
<glowcoil> first of all you can show a visualization of before and after states with a side-effecting function
<glowcoil> also you can have side-effecting functions you test with arguments and if they depend on state then it is a bad tool for visualizing thjem
<whitequark> (before and after) sure. now you pull the slider and... what happens?
<whitequark> (bad tool) sure. what are the other tools?
<glowcoil> depends on what the underlying language is
<whitequark> well, aren't you designing one?
<devyn> 22:00:33 <+glowcoil> everything you just said is wrong
<devyn> wow, fiesty
<whitequark> fiesty: "everything you did in your life was in vain"
<glowcoil> devyn: whitequark is being a huge fucking pessimist and refuses to believe that there's any possible way something i say can be viable
<devyn> feisty.
<devyn> oops
<whitequark> I'm not refusing to believe, I do not understand
<whitequark> big difference
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<whitequark> I *want* to believe, lol.
<purr> lol
<devyn> glowcoil: I don't think that's true; he just doesn't see how something revolutionary can ever succeed when we've already got so much infrastructure
<whitequark> that's partly true, but only partly
<glowcoil> whitequark: saying "try using less haskell and using more real world code" is not really "wanting to believe", it's being very condescending
<whitequark> I think a tool which rejects existing infrastructure *completely* is bound to fail no matter what
<devyn> he's just asking you to approach this from less of a mathematical ideal perspective
<whitequark> glowcoil: remember that I also really want this to be true and have my own similar ideas (Livescript)
<whitequark> so, yeah, I do want it
<devyn> essentially: how can you do this in an evolutionary way
<devyn> without changing everything
<whitequark> I just can't see how it looks in the big picture so far, inside a complete development environment
<whitequark> and a huge part of it is thinking of real code. Say this PID controller I have laying here, it's in a way a problem yielding rather well to such analytical approach
<glowcoil> i don't have a full complete picture, i'm not working on this project
<whitequark> yet if you crack it open and look inside, d'aww, *none* of that code is pure
<glowcoil> these are idle ideas
<glowcoil> the things i'm trying to make right now are music and games, when i don't have shit tons of homework to do
<glowcoil> everyone has so fucking little imagination about what "pure" means
<glowcoil> it's not like
<glowcoil> you either have
<glowcoil> a bunch of fucking functions that take and return adts, or a bucnh of fucking statements and pointers and globals and c
<whitequark> I don't think like that
<glowcoil> there are so many fucking possibilities
<whitequark> sure you can encapsulate state at various levels, but that requires you to write more and more support code for the DE
<whitequark> perhaps s,write,generate,; bottom line: understand it
<whitequark> hm, well. maybe if language was built around stateful processes with well-defined creation and interaction interfaces
<whitequark> that could work
<whitequark> so that all code you write naturally encapsulates state well
<whitequark> I don't think I've seen anything quite like that. only vaguely similar stuff
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<devyn> glowcoil: btw, I'm taking lojban lessons
<ELLIOTTCABLE> no.
<devyn> :)
<devyn> ELLIOTTCABLE: not just that, I'm paying for them
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<devyn> beautiful!
<devyn> > "What is your most prized possession? Why? (Do NOT write about a person.)"
<devyn> lol
<purr> lol
<whitequark> "myself"
<devyn> my slave. because I live in Mauritania
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<joelteon> holy shit
<joelteon> our production system is a nightmare
<joelteon> it's just the worst thing ever
<yorickpeterse> "A quote by most companies"
<yorickpeterse> s/by/of
<yorickpeterse> damn it, I blew it
<yorick> no, by should work
<yorick> just say "-- almost everyone"
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<yorickpeterse> music on Linux
<yorickpeterse> ugh
<yorick> yorickpeterse: mpd.
<yorickpeterse> 15 different synths, 100 different file formats
<yorick> mpd!
<yorickpeterse> I'm talking about making music numpty
<yorick> oh!
<yorickpeterse> not about recording
<yorickpeterse> also fuck mpd
<yorick> don't do that!
<yorick> use macs for that
<yorickpeterse> Did you just tell me to go fuck myself with a brick?
<yorickpeterse> Because I'd rather do that than use OS X again
<yorick> a very expensive one with a tiny apple engraved on the top
<yorick> well then do it on windows!
<yorickpeterse> Fuck no, Linux has plenty of things for it
<yorickpeterse> that's the thing: a few too many
<yorickpeterse> I already did the hardest part: trying to figure out how to tie this shit together
<yorickpeterse> now to actually re-learn playing a piano
<yorickpeterse> and making sik beats
* yorick should connect his drum kit to the computer sometime
<yorick> for those authentic human drum beats instead of those perfect computer generated ones!
<yorickpeterse> tell me about it
<yorickpeterse> My keyboard has drum pads, I wonder if I can somehow hook those up to my drum kit app so I don't have to fucking point & click
<yorickpeterse> much easier if I can just tap things
<yorick> drums are repeated 20 times troughout everything anyways
<yorickpeterse> more like dun dun dun *repeat 3 minutes*
<yorickpeterse> this one artist re-uses the same fucking beat throughout two albums as far as I can tell
<yorick> yorickpeterse: but sometimes it does dun dun dun tsssk!
<yorickpeterse> sounds good though
<yorickpeterse> but man, my piano hands are even more rusty than the Titanic
<yorickpeterse> I should probably start with old mc donald again
<yorick> what keyboard are you using?
<yorickpeterse> Music store tried to sell me some showroom model that looked like something that would break the moment you'd give it an angry look
<whitequark> to be fair, do you even *have* other kinds of looks?
<yorickpeterse> no
<yorickpeterse> that's the problem
<yorickpeterse> I want my hardware to fear me
<yorickpeterse> without having to run Node.js on it
<whitequark> yorickpeterse-hates-things.tumblr.com
<yorickpeterse> yorickpeterse.com
<yorickpeterse> twitter.com/yorickpeterse
<yorickpeterse> that's enough for me
<whitequark> that... that actually may become a thing
<yorickpeterse> AWWWW SHEEEEE, a libre arte package
<yorickpeterse> what?
<yorickpeterse> Node on hardware?
<yorickpeterse> it already is
<yorick> yorickpeterse: it's the music store on the gijsbrecht isn't it
<yorick> I hate that music store
<yorickpeterse> yup
<yorickpeterse> haha
<yorickpeterse> how so?
<yorick> they sold me a showroom model with the promise a new one would be arriving soon to replace it, and it took them months
<yorick> like "hmm, you can have that one, but we don't have that yet so you can loan this one for now" and then it took them months to order the actual thing I bought
<yorickpeterse> so this fucking art pack comes with a fucking Slackware ebook
<yorickpeterse> how the hell is that even related
<yorick> because someone googled linux+art?
<yorickpeterse> "dethmetal.sf2" not sure if typo...
<yorick> and then scrolled through pages to see the word slackware
<yorick> oh god that site is great
<yorickpeterse> oh yeah so randomly hitting the fucking "Panic" button in the synth makes it work suddenly
<yorickpeterse> ...there's a fucking super mario brothers sample for a synth
<yorick> you say this as if there shouldn't be
<yorickpeterse> all I wanted is a decent sounding piano sample
<yorick> oh but those are proprietary!
<yorickpeterse> aaaaaand I think I just got one
<yorickpeterse> fuck yiss
<yorickpeterse> holy shit, this one actually sounds good
<yorickpeterse> I mean, you can hear it's digital but still, it's pretty good
<yorickpeterse> daaaaaamn, it sounds real good
<yorickpeterse> now I miss having an actual piano :<
<yorickpeterse> jesus, this entire pack is fucking great
<yorickpeterse> and I'm not even kidding
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