sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<mryandao>
are polysigs the same as sipa's post on tree sigs?
<sipa>
no
<mryandao>
what are polysigs?
<mryandao>
O.O
<sipa>
say you want to construct a 99-of-100 policy
<sipa>
you could use key trees (iterate over all 100 subset and put them in the merkle tree)
<mryandao>
yes
<sipa>
but imagine instead of doing that, i give you the sum of all the keys P1+P2+P3+...
<sipa>
and i give you also P1+2*P2+3*P3+4*P4+...
<sipa>
and now i tell you that key 3 is missing (so 1,2,4,5,6...100 will be signing)
<sipa>
let's say S1 = P1+P2+P3+... and S2 = 1*P1+2*P2+3*P3+...
<sipa>
now i give you a signature with key S2-3*S1
<sipa>
which you can compute from S2 and S1 which i've given you
<mryandao>
how does the additive property hold?
<sipa>
in every way you expect
<sipa>
so S2-3*S1 becomes what?
<sipa>
if you write it in function of P1P2,...
<mryandao>
mm, i'll know the 99 keys have signed.
<sipa>
yes
<sipa>
but does S2-3*S1 depend on P3?
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<mryandao>
if you did that 3*P3 just dissapears.
<mryandao>
so what exactly does it mean if s2-3*s1 depends on p3?
<sipa>
right, that's the point
<sipa>
with S1 and S2 you can construct expressions from which any single given P disappears
<sipa>
so that lets you construct (n-1)-of-n multisig
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<mryandao>
ah i see
<mryandao>
thank you
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<sipa>
and this generalizes
<sipa>
you can construct k-of-n multisig by giving (n-k+1) terms
<sipa>
the next one would be S3 = P1 + 4*P2 + 9*P3 + 16*P4 + ...
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<contrapumpkin>
are there any analogs to the bitcoin fee market in "real life"? it feels fundamentally a bit stunted
<contrapumpkin>
it feels like it's always going to devolve into something resembling an arms race, given the signals available to participants
<kanzure>
look at the auction theory reviews of bitcoin fee market
<bsm117532>
Well there are fees all over the place...ATM fees, wire transfer fees, exchange fees, and a "market" exists because customers can move between providers based on fee. I know the fact that my checking account reimburses ATM fees is one of the reasons I chose them. But I think this is not the answer you're looking for.
<kanzure>
and use fee bumping
<contrapumpkin>
yeah, I mean the bitcoin one specifically. I can't choose my miner and I don't really know what they'll take, and we're all trying in some sense to outbid one another
<bsm117532>
I wonder if an algorithm could be devised where e.g. miners take *half* the available fee at any given time, to remove any incentive for the next miner to orphan your block in order to steal fees.
<sipa>
bsm117532: yes, pay forward schemes have been diacussed several times
<bsm117532>
How is that "pay forward"?
<bsm117532>
Also, any refs would be appreciated ;-)
<sipa>
every miner is required to pay X% of the mining income forward to the next block
<sipa>
which is even doable as a SF
<bsm117532>
Oh I see
<sipa>
this imoroves the situation by not only incentivizing miners to include your tx, but also for further miners to mine on top of it
<sipa>
however i believe it can never fully fix the incentives in the oresence of highly variable fees on the network
<bsm117532>
This doesn't even require a soft fork...can be done as local miner node policy WRT the mempool they see.
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<sipa>
well, yes, but why would a miner agree to give up half their income if it's not required
<bsm117532>
So another miner doesn't snipe their fee if they take it all. ;-)
<bsm117532>
They're not increasing their income if their blocks are always orphaned.
<sipa>
right
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<andytoshi>
fluffypony: do you have timelocks of any form? multisig has always been possible in monero, timelocks are the missing piece afaict
<andytoshi>
waxwing: contrapumpkin: yes, you can do cross-chain swaps across chains that use different curves. it's a bit more involved, you need a piece of crypto that i haven't published yet
<andytoshi>
and yes, ed25519 is schnorr enough for this
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<dEBRUYNE>
Monero has unlock_time, which will lock an output for a specified number of blocks.
<dEBRUYNE>
^ andytoshi
<fluffypony>
andytoshi: yes we do, but there's no per-output granularity
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<andytoshi>
dEBRUYNE: that's insufficient.
<andytoshi>
fluffypony: right, sorry, what i meant is that you can chain zero-confs and create locktimed transactions before the referenced outputs exist
<fluffypony>
can't chain 0-confs in Monero tho
<fluffypony>
unless you do it out-of-band
<andytoshi>
right, so you can't do atomic swaps or lightning or anything without holdup risk
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